I need to add new oil to my skid steer and it specifies 10W-30. I'm going to rent a filter cart to clean the oil before putting it in and clean it again after a couple hours of use but wondering if it matters much which 10W-30 conventional oil I use? The new oils are all a higher API spec. than what it originally called for. Napa has house brand oil (Proformer) on sale for $3/litre which is less than half of most name brand oils and some people say the Supertech oil from Walmart is decent oil. In a hydraulic application would it make any difference over name brand oils if they all meet API SN? https://www.napacanada.com/en/p/PFQPF10W30CO5L
What type of 10W/30 does it specify, motor oil or hydraulic oil..? Big difference. With the amount of money you just spent on parts and your determination to get everything clean and “right” why would you want to go nickel and diming with oil that’s probably one step up from what you could buy at Joe Blow’s Gas & Groceries..?
Make sure what you use doesn’t have a detergent additive in it.
It specifies to use 10W-30 API SE/CD engine oil only in the owners manual. That's why I don't know if buying name brand for double the price will make any difference because they are all a higher spec than the original oil. Maybe private brand SN oil better than name brand SE oil?
The problem with motor oil these days is that it’s pretty much impossible to get a multi grade without a detergent package (see vetech’s post above). IMHO you would be better putting a good brand (major oil co) straight 10W hydraulic oil in it.
Loader Parts Source where I got the drive motor from recommends universal tractor fluid and says it meets all the requirements for hydrostatic transmissions and is a little cheaper than motor oil. Apparently straight AW hydraulic fluid does not have the right additives for hydrostatic transmissions. It lists separate hydraulic systems on the label as well. I was worried that new motor oils would have additives that could harm the hydrostat components. https://www.loaderpartssource.com/kbase/Videos/Type_of_Hydraulic_oil_used_in_skidsteer.html
It seems strange to me that while most hydraulic drive systems on skid steers and the like are quite happy to operate on hydraulic oil (let’s face it they are a hydraulic system after all is said and done) for some reason the parts supplied by this outfit don’t. As the Chinaman would say - sum ting wong.....
Did some looking and found this on another forum. Re: tractor fluid VS #46 hydrolic fluid There is a difference in the two types of fluid. One is a hydraulic oil only and the other is a UTF (universal tractor fluid). The hydraulic fluid/oil is designed for one thing only and that is as a hydraulic fluid. UTF type products have a greatly different additive package than plain hydraulic oils. They have friction modifiers as are needed in hydrostatic transmissions, EP (extreme pressure) additives for things like gears, usually have a much higher anti-foam additive package and so on. Using a UTF type oil as hydraulic oil is fine, using a hydraulic oil where a UTF type oil should be used isn't.
I wouldnt worry about using hytran or hygard oil. Very popular to do. They're running the same type of devices and more
God to know. I see some other skid steer owners use the tractor fluid as well without problems.
My dad uses standard Havoline 10w30 in his chevy 1500 z71. 700,000 miles on same engine. 5.3 liter. No engine work. Replaced trans 4 time, several alternators, most all bolt on components have been replaced. But the engine has never been opened. I use it in my case skid steers and I have not had to replace a pump yet...
All I can say is the JCB Skid-steer we had at the quarry used 15W-40 oil in everything, engine, hydraulics and chain boxes. Of all the problems we had while with that machine while I worked there none of the problems were in places that oil touched! Well except broken roller chains but can't think a snapped chain link was caused by lack of proper lubricant.
Tractor hydraulic fluid isn't a lot different at all from automatic transmission fluid you use for your car. It came into being for hydraulic systems when operating pressures got in the 4,000 PSI ranges and heat became a very big problem. As far as any difference goes though, why would it matter. Just run what the manufacture specifies. The API ratings on oil are supposed to be backward compatible. That's why you can run today's oil in a 57 Chevy.
CNH calls for 10-30 motor oil in the hyds. Beeb that way for a long time. When I need it, I buy what is convenient. Never had an issue.
Backwards compatible for engines or hydraulics? I thought with new emissions and such motor oil may have different additives that may not be the best for hydraulic/hydrostat systems. For awhile they didn't recommend certain oil classifications for skid steers. Doesn't seem to be a consensus anywhere on what to use. Here's something interesting I found on pg. 12 of a Cat machine fluid recommendations manual . Industrial hydraulic oils are not recommended for use as service fill in Caterpillar machine hydraulic systems. http://oa.upm.es/14340/2/Documentac...r/Caterpillar Fluid Recommendations Guide.pdf
Demo company i used to work at had a fleet of bobcat brand skidsteers , we put 15w40 in everything on those not sure what type of skid steer yours is the cat skidsteers were i work now get 10w hyd/to4 oil , our few john deere dozers that specify engine oil for the hydrastat drive side get the same10w we dont seem to have any problems except for there old and leak alot lol
Welder Dave, you know you are making the biggest deal out of nothing. Seems to be a thing with you. I've had my fill of trying to help you.
Just a warning about "303 universal tractor oil or 303 THF" (THF = tractor hydraulic fluid) It's not the oil is bad... The problem is there is NO specification for it. The testing machine is an engine that's no longer available. I could P**s in a bucket and call it 303 THF. You don't know what you're getting. see here >> https://pqia.org/2017/11/20/missouri-orders-303-tractor-hydraulic-fluids-out-of-the-state/
What exactly does "supposed to be" mean? Something to back up that SN oil would replace SE oil used in hydrostatic transmission would go a lot further than supposed to be. Perhaps you can explain why Bobcat who also specified 10W-30 oil for years stopped recommending it after 2006? Maybe something to do with the new additives? Also most AG tractors aren't running 4000 PSI hydraulics and tractor fluid has been around for over 50 years. I didn't get on your case when you didn't know a Komatsu D66S track loader was hydrostatic and you're an equipment appraiser. as of 2006 bobcat no longer recommends engine oil in the hyd/hydrostatic system. engine oil formulas have drastically changed over the years, as have some hyd oil formulas BobcatofDuluth www.bobcatofduluth.com Joined: 21 Jan 2010 Total Posts: 24 Re: Mixing 10w30 and Hydraulic fluid Posted: 01/21/2010 07:10 AM Hey folks! =) I came across this thread and thought I'd share the official word from Bobcat on this question. We get asked about this quite frequently at the dealership I work for (due to the fact that Bobcat used to ok this in their manuals). I just wanted everyone to be aware that this is no longer suggested or recommended. If you check a revised or current operation or service manual, the part about using 10W30 has been omitted. Here's the official release from Bobcat Company: "Bobcat Hydraulic/Hydrostatic Fluid is specially blended for use with Bobcat hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. Bobcat Fluid has been developed to meet the growing demands placed on hydraulic components, while engine oil is designed to meet requirements for use as an engine lubricant. Because of this, engine oil is no longer an acceptable alternative fluid for Bobcat hydraulic and hydrostatic systems. Viscosity. Engine oil viscosity is typically much higher than the acceptable limit of hydraulic fluid. Hydraulic fluid is designed for high pressure applications and with viscosity to operate effectively throughout a wide temperature range. Additives. Bobcat Fluid contains more zinc and phosphorus anti-wear additives than other brands of hydraulic fluid. Zinc and phosphorus adhere to metal surfaces of hydraulic components and act as a coating to separate moving parts. Additives in engine oils do not have the same anti-wear properties. Demulsibility. Under operating conditions hydraulic fluid is designed to separate water, engine oils typically absorb water. Foaming. Most engine oil is not formulated to prevent foaming. Foam is a contaminate that lowers performance, decreases filtration and can cause premature hydraulic component failure."
That sounds like bobcat's way of saying "we figured out we can make more money if we make you buy our oil."
After doing a little research, I discovered most tractor transmission /hyd. fluids are 10W-30 and low temp. is 5W-30 but some list a temperature range instead of the weight. The best bang for the buck I found for a premium conventional fluid is Petro-Canada Duratran. It is hydro-treated and meets or exceeds most OEM specs. including the older Cat TO-2 but the spec. I mostly went by is it approved for use in Sundstrand hydrostatic transmissions. I know in the oilfield a lot of people swear by Petro-Canada lubricants. https://lubricants.petro-canada.com/en-ca/brand/duratran-products Rented a filter cart for $225 and filtered the oil several times. Used 11 micron and 4 micron Donaldson filters. They only charged me for 1 filter because they had just put the 4 micron on. They could get filters down to 2 micron. A couple other places the lowest filters they had were only 10 micron. OEM calls for 5 micron. One place quoted me $125/day for the filter cart, $91 for a 25 micron filter, $94 for the 10 micron filter, $2 for environmental fee's and another $115 for Ocilabour for a total of just under$450 with GST. I can't even find what ocilabour means??? Anybody have any idea what this charge would have been for? Machine is back moving under it's own power. Going to leave the belly pan off for a few hours just to make sure there's no leaks or problems.
Bobcat 753 2001. rebuilt lift cylinders due to leaks. No other leaks on 550 hrs. unit. refilled with shell rotella 10w30 hydraulic tractor oil. 2 more leaks started after running one day of work. Bought from dealer with 100 hrs in 03. suspect either dealer added stop leak or bobcat fluid includes some sort of built in stop leak that was weakened when I diluted the existing fluid with the new Rotella. Original manual says use hydraulic fluid rather than engine oil. I've added Lucas stop leak, per their specs to thicken up the fluid. Not sure on results yet. Every thing seems to function correctly.
The only person you're fooling thinking that snake oil is going to fix your problem is yourself. My opinion - other opinions may be available. No equipment manufacturer's branded oils AFAIK include any sort of "stop leak" additive. When you rebuilt the cylinders did you have the rods checked for size (outside diameter), or were there any nicks, burrs, or scratches on the chrome..? Not sure what Bobcat recommend but I would've thought 10W hydraulic oil would be the weapon of choice for that system. If it leaks with that oil then there is an issue with the cylinder or whatever, not with the oil. Again my 2c. This...........
Where are the new leaks? Something seems really off. A 19 year old machine could develop leaks and it may just be a coincidence. 550 hours in 19 years means the machine did a lot of sitting and that alone could cause seals to dry up and start leaking. A lot of machines including Bobcat specified 10W-30 engine oil for the hyd's. so the same oil could be used for the entire machine. Bobcat went away from this recommendation and now wants you to buy their own oil which is quite a bit more expensive. Apparently it has more zinc and phosphorous anti-wear additives than other than other brands of hyd. fluid. I don't think the oil is the problem though.
10w hydraulic oil in a skidsteer in winter always seems a bit too heavy.controls get sluggish at -30. A lot of people in these parts use 0w20 arctic oil. In my years of experience I’ve observed that most leaks weren’t leaking just before they started leaking.
Looking at the poster's location there are two Kingman's listed, one in AZ and the other in IN. I doubt if either of those locations would get cold enough in winter to require 0W20 hydraulic oil.
Sharing some thoughts and experience: Bobcat ( 843? ) we used to have blew a hose. Fixed that and filled it up with universal tractor fluid ( 303? ). Machine went into cavitation convulsions. Consulted the manual which listed different oils based on temperatures. 15 W-40 motor oil fit in our temperature range and we have it in bulk. Problem solved. Read on this forum about changes on motor oils such as removal of zinc and such. Some gas burners are wiping flat tappet cams due to this. Some of the additives were removed due to harm they cause the new emission systems. Reasoned if it is bad for cams it is probably not good for pumps and motors anymore as well. The correct hydro oil should also have anti foam and high pressure additives. Mustang ( 2064? ) had to have loader cylinders repacked. Ordered oil by the book from oil jobber. Repacked the cylinders but oil did not show up. Went to local Deere and bought low viscosity HyGuard JDM-J21A for $18 a gallon. Figured good oil is cheaper than pumps. Blew a main line two weeks later and it was gone. Was not now now now under the gun and did some research. The 320 skid steer is using regular Hyguard so what is the problem with that? Appears the regular Hytran J20C is 10 W 30. We keep that spec from a jobber for about $5 a gallon. Mustang likes that fine down to 27 F so far. The low viscosity Hyguard as I read it is 5 W 20. As I see this the oils have changed. Motor oil is out in hydraulic systems for me. I would be more concerned about damage to pumps from cavitation when cold than running a thinner oil when hot. Sure folks running high HP chippers and such may differ. May just need longer warm up times. Proof reading I see Hyguard Hytran what ever. Those are Deere specs but most everyone knows they cross with many brands and specs. Just meant to share what I thank I have learned about hydraulic oils in these machines.
So, say a guy had a Deere 544K loader from 2012 that calls for 15W-40 engine oil for hydraulic oil? Do I understand that something labelled a hydraulic oil is a better choice now due to change sin engine oils? Specifically what hydraulic oil would be best in this case? Southern US climate BTW.
I was specifically talking about use in hydrostatic drive roller pumps and motors. Not so sure about your 544. Consult your dealer. If mg2361 is around I am sure he will have some good information. We are still running motor oil in loader transmissions.
If you are looking for an economical way to filter your oil, i bought a Donaldson P563288 Filter Housing with 1/2 inch NPT Ports, Threaded on a Donalson P564967 Filter ( Synthetic 5 Micron ) For $ 100 In Canada. Just steal oil from any circuit to a needle valve , Then send the oil into the filter Housing and back out with a simple 3/8 300 PSI push on hose into the hydraulic reservoir filler. Make sure it is properly ty-wrapped and taped up to prevent cotamination and leaks and your oil will be cleaned to 5 Micron In a couple Hours of Use . Send in a sample before and after and you will be surprised. As NIGE Said; It is like a human Dialysis Machine. Send me your email if you need more info. Simon
He he, With all the discussiin about additives in engine oil, multiple passes with the filter cart and 4 micron filter, Welder Dave stripped the additives out of that 10-30 engine oil, anyways.
Unless the oil is freezing cold the additives should be fully dissolved in the oil. If you went to 1 or 2 micron there's a possibility you could remove additives. I highly doubt Donaldson would make 4 micron filters if they removed additives and I don't know of anyone more qualified than Donaldson when it comes to filtration.
Hydrau from Deere in your case. John Deere switched out engine oil for Hydrau. Hydrau is specifically designed for hydraulic and hydrostatic systems and will do a much better job of protecting your hydraulic system.
Additives in engine oil are extremely complex long chain molecules. That's one reason why in every tank farm I've ever seen engine oil is the one grade of oil on which nobody does dialysis. Engine oil filters are generally around the 10-micron mark for that reason.
5 micron is the filtration threshold for the newest API SP/GF-6 engine oils. The detergent additives, which are polar in nature anyways, and the anti-oxidation additives get trapped with a 4 micron filter. 10 micron is normally the recommendation for engine oil. That’s from the lube suppliers. The oil distributor I used to work for had a gold mine customer that was filtering their bulk 15w-40 EO down to 2 micron. Our tribologist started noticing funky viscosity index numbers and high oxidation numbers in the oil analysis reports. Traced it to the bulk tanks stripping the additive package. There guy had spun the same filters on the engine oil bulk tanks as the hydraulic bulk tanks. More filtration has got to be better, right? This particular experience is what made me aware of bulk engine oil filtration limits.
If one is adamant about using 10W-30 engine oil in the hydraulic system per the manual would it make sense to add a few quarts of Case HTO additive? This is a confusing topic because my older Thomas skid steer manual says to use 10W-30 too. It has Eaton components so I would think hydrostatic rated oil would be fine. https://www.mycnhistore.com/us/en/c...-hydraulic-oil/trans-hyd-oil-pkg/oil/p/B17508 Steve
Thomas also went to requiring 5 micron filtration for warranty. Filter efficiency also plays a role but a problem with 2 micron filtration doesn't necessarily mean the same problems will exist for 4 micron filtration. I would think hydraulics would require higher levels of filtration than engines up to a certain point. One would have to do some tests to determine what the optimal micron rating would be. I think most manufacturers have gone away from recommending 10W-30 engine oil for hydraulics and I wonder if it has a lot to do with the newer grades of oil and different additive packages in it. My skid steer called for 10W-30 SE/CD oil only for the hydraulics. I didn't blindly trust that the newer SM or above oils could be substituted for hydraulic purposes after reading that additive packages for oils have changed. I didn't use engine oil. After doing some research went with a name brand transmission, hyd. and differential fluid which was 10W-30 rated and approved for Sundstrand hydrostatic transmissions among others. Using the filter cart was able to take the drain out of the reservoir and flush any accumulated sediment out a few times and filter the oil before adding it back to the system. Using the filter cart I also didn't need to prime the system after installing the new motor. System was primed after the oil was filtered. I've had no leaks, noises, foaming or any other problems with it so far.
HTO additive is only needed by certain Case skid steers to protect the drive motors. It's not going to hurt anything, but it's expensive and unnecessary for anything else. HeavyEquipmentForums
Phil314, I was thinking the additive might extend to other machines too. My Thomas skid steer has gerotors for drive motors like the Case. I think I will go with a hydraulic based oil next time like others are recommending. Steve