Got a 140H kicking my butt! 2ZK prefix Machine only had 1F,5F,1R,4R. Machine will kinda spin the tires with them off the ground in other gears No codes All pressure ports test good and solenoids seem to be working Transmission is a reman with less then 200hrs Anybody have any ideas or something else I should check? Also have removed screen and its look normal. Fluid is the right color and doesn't smell burnt. Have access to SIS and ET
Did the problem come on suddenly or has it been getting steadily worse for a while..?
Operator said it happened all the sudden but there is no telling
From the gears you say are working it appears as though three clutches in the transmission are not engaging - #2, 4, & 5. If there was nothing relating to burned clutch material in the screen then the first thought would be electrical although the lack of diagnositc codes is somewhat puzzling. Try exchanging the solenoid valves between #3 and any of the other clutches that are not currently engaging. If the problem is electrical & external to the transmission then nothing should change. For example if the #2 solenoid valve is dodgy (because right now #2 clutch is not engaging) then by moving the bad solenoid valve to the #3 position and replacing it with the good one currently installed in #3, instead of the gears you have now (1F,5F,1R,4R) you should get the same two forward speeds that you are getting now (1F, 5F) but no reverse gears at all because #3 is the reverse clutch. The table below shows which solenoids operate which speed. Because this is a countershaft transmission it requires three clutches to engage in order to select a particular speed.
Here's the layout of the solendoids 1 through 8 on the transmission control valve.
Here's another thought. There are two screens on that transmission. Which one did you pull for inspection..?
Suction screen is the only one i pulled will give solenoid swap a try in the A.M. Thanks
There are two suction screens, one is the suction from the differential housing and that’s the one that usually accumulates the clutch material if there is anything to find. It’s more difficult to remove than the transmission suction screen which is why people tend to forget/ignore it. Which screen did you remove, #1 or #2..?
Where would it be located the one i took off is the one that bolts to the pump and sucks from diff housing
Would i still be getting pressure at the ports if the solenoid or solenoids failed?
I removed number 2 sorry didnt see your post before replying Its had some shavings on the magnet but nothing out of the norm
Behind #1 is where most of the burned clutch materail will be if there is any. Might pay you to take a look. To paraphrase IKEA - "some disassembly may be required"
Will do first thank in the morning and will report back. Thanks alot for your help!!
That’s the transmission one
No signs of a major catastrophe there....... On to changing solenoids around and see what happens. BTW the view of the solenoids in the post above is from the front of the machine looking towards the back.
Changing out The Whole valve correct not just the solenoid?
Correct. IIRC they are only held in with one Allen screw. Take care removing them so as not to damage the o-rings on the valve stem. Question: Is your machine Serial Number above or below 2392..? I'll send you an electrical schematic but I need to get the correct one for your machine. There was a change in electrical system from machine 2ZK02392 onwards.
2ZK05654 Looks like Allen screws hold in the whole bank of solenoids 1,2,3,4/5,6,7,8
Sorry, my mistake. If you remove the solenoid coil the body of each valve can be unscrewed from each of the two housings that holds four solenoid valves. See the illustration below. Remove the nut #3 and then slide the solenoid coil off the valve stem. Then put a wrench on the hexagon on the valve body and screw it out. Double check to make sure that the electrical connections don't get mixed up.
Swapped solenoids around and no changes Output speed is showing good and no code. All test ports testing perfect in each gear. Im thinking internal?
Which two solenoids did you end up swapping.? When you say “all test ports testing testing perfect in each gear” do I take it that you are measuring good pressure specifically at the test points for clutches 2, 4, & 5 when they are supposed to be engaged.?
A with C,E,G A=3 clutch C=2 E=4 G=5 Also made sure to have all good solenoids and spoils in the 3F clutch’s and still don’t have 3rd
Nige correct me if I am wrong but I remember that itch clutch pack on the counter shafts engage with different pressures. It has been a while since I had built one of these transmissions, but I do remember needing to put certain Springs and shimming them to reach the correct pressure for each spool. I ask because of how do you know if you're pressures are correct? No disrespect, but correct me if I am wrong about this
Paul, You're correct about the different intital pressures, and the adjustment is made by shims. Note that pressures are taken with machine reasonably well warmed up and the engine speed at 2000 RPM. Here's the full T&A for the Transmission Initial Pressures including the specification table. I wonder if it's worth hooking some test leads up on solenoids 2, 4, & 5 just to check if they are energizing..? All that would need to be done is to select either 2nd or 3rd Forward and all three solenoids could be tested.
Here's a thought from left field. I wonder if it's snapped a shaft inside the transmission.? That would explain the lack of debris in the screen.
Solenoids are energizing test with screwdriver on the back side and it sticks right to the correct ones in correct gear. Guess I could hook test with multimeter to make sure.
I would suggest that's the last throw of the dice before you start to think about pulling the transmission. I will send you the electrical schematic just in case. It's not unusual for a solenoid valve to go bad either electrically or mechanically, but for three to go bad at at the same time is somewhat stretching the bounds of possibility. With the reported suden failure mode there are two somewhat obvious conclusions. An electrical fault somewhere in a main harness not allowing the affected solenoids to correctly energize, or a mechanical hernia inside the transmission.
The pressure ports reading correct in every gear would indicate the the solenoids and valves are working correctly though right?
Internal failures on these things are usually one of two scenarios. Either (A) there is internal leakage due to a blown clutch seal or failed shaft bearing, or (B) one or more clutches burn out. In scenario A you will lose pressure at a test point or, scenario B you will get clutch debris in the screens. You seem to have neither of these problems which doesn't really make sense. (You can make a definitive test for clutch seal leakage by removing the rotary manifolds from the ends of the clutch shafts and applying compressed air to the clutches if you think it will help your diagnosis.)
This whole thing doesn't make sense Have you checked pressures in all clutch packs? Are you definite in the loss of original gears????????? Inactive clutches #2,#4 and #5 are on three different counter shafts in the transmission seems a big jump to lose pressure or drive on three different clutches at exactly the same time
I'm with you on that one. It makes no sense at all. A little voice in my head is still saying "electrical" despite posted information to the contrary from the OP.
I hear you on that one Nige
Tested everything i know to test! We've tested the wires for man mod circuit as well! All solenoids are working as they should so i don't believe its a wiring issue. The remanufacturer of the trans is sending a cat tech out to run test and see if i have missed something. Been on the phone with those guys multiple times of the passed week and there scratching there head aswell. Ill keep yall updated
So it wasn't a Cat Reman transmission then..? You failed to mention that before. Hmmmm...... In that case it could be anything.
Well they bought it from a 3rd party(Used parts dealer of some sort) that told them it came from a cat dealer. But i cant tell you how true that is. The more im around the machine the more burnt the fluid smells also so i believe its internal. From what i've heard they're sticking to the warranty and replacing if thatss the case well see
I have a good bit of experience with these transmission and usually don't have a problem diagnosing. Its got me and a few other guys i've talked to stumped. Not sure what went wrong and hell could even had not just happened suddenly and the operator told me that to save his ass. Maybe i've just missed something simple and the cat tech will find it! That would be nice! Not sure when hes/shes coming out but ill keep ya'll posted. Anything else ya'll have in mind i can test i'm all ears.
Does the transmission have a tag with Serial Number, Part Number, & Arrangement Number listed on it..? If so what are the numbers..? EDIT: At a brief trawl through the system I can't see a Cat Reman Transmission P/N that is applicable to your machine Serial Number. If that is correct it makes the hairs on the back of my neck stand up a bit.
S/n:4my05186 A/n:1442234 P/n under the tag Is 143-7402 not sure if that’s just a case part number or trans. It’s in the casting
143-7402 is the case casting Part Number. The case P/N becomes 143-7403 after final machining. The original transmission for 2KZ05654 (built mid-Oct 2000) was 4MY09280, so the currently-installed one is much older. It dates from December 1998 and was originally installed in machine 2ZK03913. It has a Part Number rather than 0R/10R-whatever, so definitely a rebuilt unit and not a Reman.
Understand. So if it was a reman it would have had the tag removed and a new one put in its place? By your other post you believe cat never made a reman transmission for this certain machine?
If it was rebuilt by a competent rebuild shop IMHO they should’ve removed the OEM plate and put one of their own on it, including relevant info like date, 1st life hours, WO Number, etc, etc. Also it ought to be sold with test info. I’ll bet no-one from your side ever saw anything like that when it was purchased..?
I've had same problem before. Transmissions solenoids ok but all forward gears and reverse gears won't select. After all troubleshooting I decided to use another controller to check and that was just the solution. Model: 140H S/n: 5hm01927