Hello everyone we have a 2007 i think, model 140m cat that has injector problems, it usually starts out with #6 injector going first then the others start to go afterwards, when you know its starting to go it misses when you first start it in the morning, we are on our 7th set of injectors, any imfo on what you think is causing this problem would be greatly appreciated, another note, the first set went at 600 hrs, thanks everyone.
It might be a silly question but if the first set of injectors went out at 700 hours was your local Cat dealer nit involved from there onwards..? Even if the machine was out of warranty eating sets of injectors like you are is not normal and the dealer woulkd be the first port of call in this type of situation. We have lots of machines with C-series engines and have failed the occasional injector, but not in complete sets like you are doing.
Yes cat was involved from day one, what i found was kind of strange was the first set that were pulled out were aftermarket injectors in a new cat engine, at 900 hrs the crank went, i don't know but was thinking the crank might be out of phase causing this problem, anyone have any idea's? thanks
Have they put a HEUI pump on it? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
that would be more than i could tell you, cat just keeps on replacing them, its to the point that our shop is replacing them, it's to costly to keep getting cat to replace them $1000 just for the call out plus hourly rate,they just seem to keep replacing them and not finding whats causing the injectors to fail, hoping somebody on here would have an idea whats going on and where to look? was talking to the operater last night he said #6 injector has failed again, i'm on a few day's of so he is using my baby old faithful 140h till his is repaired again, this is crazy why nobody can figure out whats causing the injectors to fail, the 140m vhp has the 9 litre engine. thanks
C9's are notorious for HEUI pumps knocking out injectors. Usually its not until 6000 hrs or so though. I wouldn't put another set in until you replace the heui pump. Replace it all at one time (pump and injectors) and clean ALL the fuel and oil galleys in the head as meticulously as possible. And change the oil, oil filter, and fuel filters when you do it. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Thank you, its funny why cat didn't do this after the 2nd or 3rd set, just kept on replacing them, guess it was easier to do that. i will pass the info on to our mech, any other info would be great, thanks again.
Get your mechanic to make a list of dates, hour meter readings, costs, etc, for all the times that injectors have been replaced over the years then have someone with a bit of horsepower (like the owner, manager, whatever of your outfit) talk to the Service Manager at the Cat Dealer and ask specifically about a Goodwill settlement because you the customer "have not received fair value" for what you bought due to the repetitive failures. I'm with Dmax. The HEUI Pump should be replaced (and Cat should pay for it IMHO) before replacing any more injectors. i didn't make the connection that it was a C-9, all our C-Series are C-13 and larger that don't suffer from the HEUI issue.
I will do that thanks, cat has won the tender for suppling us with equipment for the next 4 years, they should come good for this without a hitch, but they seem to find windows to get out of it, there is a 80% chance they will reject the
sorry i hit the wrong button, there's a 80% chance they will reject the pump claim without more proof that the pump is causing the problem, i don't know if there is some kind of test that could prove the pump is causing the injector problem, these are the kind of questions the will ask before they give you the" you do not have a clue what you are talking about look" this is what we are up against, i know its said but this is what we have to deal with. thanks
Tell the dealer to use the Cat Dealer Solution Network (DSN) and put in all the details of the failures to date (especially the symptoms of going out on one injector first followed by the rest, that may be very relevant) and ask Cat for guidance. The most likely thing they will be told to do is replace the HEUI Pump. When it was first introduced we used to refer to DSN as "Don't Solve Nothing" but that's another story ......... occasionally it works well because it logs reports from dealers all over the world and if there has been anything similar anywhere it will spit the details out.
Thank you, i will inform the our mech, he is really good to deal with, i will let you know the outcome, thanks so much for the great info everyone.
Its the same old same old fix regarding to the injector problems with our 140m, just going to replace# 6 injector even though our mechanics agree with NIGE and 02DMAX on replacing the heui pump, our management seem to think that avoid fixing the problem and it will go away is the cheapest way to go and save money to boot, isn't that sad, cat would probably go good for the pump considering this injector failure keeps happening since the machine was new, this is what we deal with on a day to day basis with upper management, its hard to keep your cool, but there the boss.
Tell them they can have a heui pump paid for after replacing one set of injectors. Also tell them doing the same action repeatedly and expecting a different outcome is insanity. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
I agree w/ Dmax's last statement.. 1 thing to consider tho.. IF THIS KEEPS HAPPENING.. and someone from CAT gets the "bright idea" to check your "fuel quality" and it fails..??{their words** your in a heap of misery.. I have seen this happen to many times to count.. a dealer gets tired of "paying claims" and "finds" a way out.. I'm not saying you don't have a legitimate claim... just.. be aware that, at some point.. THEY ARE GONNA TURN THIS ON YOU.. And let your boss's know this.. I WISH I had an answer for your problem but I don't..so the next best thing I can think of is.. helping you keep your a** out of a sling.. lol
Insanity, you hit the nail on the head, its upper management that is the problem, thats why they're payed the big bucks they are suppose to know what they're doing it sure looks that way on paper and unfortunately that is who the big wigs listen to, its all about saving money "today" and forget about tomorrow for now,we will deal with that later, any of this sound familiar? anyway it is what it is, insanity, well enough of my ranting, thanks so much for your support and help guys, i will pass your info on to our mechanic.
CAT is going to go good for a new HEUI pump and injectors, just not sure when, are 140m is starting to miss again on start up, injectors starting to go again, two were changed a month ago, is there anything else cat should do when they do this repair? thanks.
Worked on a 24M grader with C 18 engine, it lost a couple of injectors like you say early on, turned out to be the injector harness inside the rocker box, resistances were to high and kept frying the solenoid coils on the injectors. Might be worth checking the Ohms resistance down each pin of the harness, not sure what it should be and seeing if theres any problems there. The harness was replaced and it sorted out the problems, not sure for how long though as I left a few months after. Have cat said what is failing on the injectors??
Make damn sure they clean out the oil passages in the head and the heui oil lines with solvent and compressed air. I'd want the oil changed in it too. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
Cat is coming tomorrow jan 31/14 to do the servicing, i will certainly tell the cat tech, thank you
I doubt they will do that...they will change the pump and the injectors and run out the door. I will suggest to the Cat Tech what you have advised. I will let you know what his response is. I hope some Cat Reps are following this thread, Cat is contracted to supply us with equipment for the next 4 years and we have just received a new 140M2 grader a week ago, I hope they follow your advice. Thanks so much for your help.
Well tell the dealer tech to not bother starting on the job if he isn't going to check for metal and come to some conclusion as to what is going on with this engine. 7 sets of injectors ???? Something is off. He needs to figure out why it is missing. Try swapping holes if its one injector - see if its electrical or hydaulic. If more are missing (as others have said) do the pump, all injectors, pull plugs on the oil rail and clean the rail and passages to each injector, new oil and filter - bare minimum Sounds like a long story but if you guys do some work and Cat other times is part of the problem that no one knows the whole story? No reason for this many failures. Are you doing proper service's complete with all SOS samples? Sound like maybe more of a dealer issue than Cat (ie not finding cause of failures, letting it continue and not doing proper repairs). Not sure how many pumps were done or how many warranty claims have been put in but Cat needs to push back to get some answers from the dealer other than the old excuse of "HEUI's suck and fail" But maybe its just me.......
Big Ben I don't think they've put any heui's on it yet. Unless I missed something. 20/80 - you guys could change the oil in it surely while the tech is working on it. Or before he starts it anyhow. Tell that tech he might as well not even unpack his truck if he doesn't clean the head and lines out. I can't believe there's not a bulletin out on what to do when you change a heui pump. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2
we always change the oil every 250 hrs, 500hrs for fuel filters, pm, samples sent every time, cat told us we only need to change oil at 500hrs, been changing oil at 250 hrs seems to be better for the engine, this could be a dealer issue, they certainly have a different toon when selling their gear, maybe cat themselves don't even know this goes on, see what happens.... thanks
No the pump has never been changed yet,thats just what we are going to do, i'm interested in what the cat mech say's when i tell him your suggestions today, i will surely get the f...k off look , lol, then again i might be surprised, see what happens.... thanks so much
Keep us posted, are waiting with anticipation! On an unrelated matter, have you ever seen any of your m series come up with a 'uncommanded steering input', shutdown know fault?
Yes. First make sure all the Flash software files for the Implements are the absolute latest available. Then go checking the wear on the ball joint at the inner end of the steering cylinder.
I think that if you were to approach the dealer tech with the "We're in this togther, how can we help each other" attitude maybe it might pay dividends. Let's face it he's been sent out to do a job of work by his bosses. How much have they told him about the issue..? 1. Ask him what his bosses told him and what work he's been asked to perform. 2. Ask him to do a Product Status Report with ET before he lays a wrench on the machine so that you know where you were. 3. Ask him to use the PSR to find out if you have the latest available software installed, especially in the engine. There was new engine software released as late as December 2013. If you don't have the latest, and it's most likely you don't, what has he been told (if anything) to update software for you..? 4. Ask him is he going to apply the procedure in Cat document REHS3819 for troubleshooting & cleaning the HEUI oil rail system when he replaces the HEUI pump and injectors. Does he have a printed copy of that document with him, or maybe an electronic copy on his laptop.
Nige will that come up in the advisor what software the implement ecm has? Unfortunately don't have access to electronic technician. We were working on the grease system down on the front steer linkages, all if a sudden it steered by itself. Scary because was in that crush area. Then could here the alarm going off in the cab.
I need to check if it comes up on advisor. Maybe you might be better creating a new thread for this subject because it involves safety. We can always cut & paste our existing posts into that thread
If they won't do it you can pull the big plug at the end of the heui oil gallery in the head and check it and the oil with a magnet, if the pump is contaminating the system that's a good spot to find metal particles. Changing the pump is a breeze compared to pulling injectors and it's not that expensive either.
Cat mech started taking our 140m apart about 9am after he did a computer scan for codes, he seemed like a nice young fellow and seemed to know his way around a engine, i told our shop mech about your advice about the changing of the heiu pump replacement and he agreed and would pass it on to the cat mech, he said the cat mech probably allready knows, anyway from what info i gathered from you good folks i noticed the cat mech did not clean out the oil lines but he seemed to clean the head somewhat from what i seen, i drained all the oil out of the machine for him, he replaced the pump and six injectors, he had quite a box full of goodies to put on, unfortunately i was called out to a job and nobody was left when i got back to the shop, so i will have to wait to here how things went,i will let you know the outcome, thanks
Job was completed new pump, injectors, oil change, head cleaned and flushed, the operator of the machine has not had a chance to test it out after the replacements but a big snowstorm is expected on the 5th feb for us, he will surely put it to the test, the start up miss is gone for now, time will tell if the changes hold up. thanks everyone,
We had a C9 go through (if I remember correctly) 3 or 4 sets of injectors. They never could get the head 100% free of contamination, they thought they had it clean, would put in a new set of injectors and they wouldn't last long. The repair for that machine was a new head.
The Cat tech that did ours used some sort of a wire brush with a long wire handle to clean the head then flushed it, changed the heui pump and injectors, heui pump main line, but didn't change the return line, then changed the oil, time will tell, it won't be long if he didn't get everything. thanks
Hey 20/80 this is a long shot but do you fill your new fuel filters with fuel when changing them? A Cat mechanic told me he's seen lots of injector problems due to this. He said this used to be common practice but with the new tighter tolerances they designed the M series to be installed dry and have the machine do an automatic prime. According to him even the cleanest fuel has a certain level of contamination that can compromise the fuel system
We allways filled the filters with fuel, maybe your on to something, since the pump change and injector change so far so good, time will tell, thanks
BTCat - good point. Sometimes the obvious questions get overlooked. HEUI or not, fuel filters should never be filled with fuel when changing. The quantity of fuel in the filter will be passed unfiltered to the pump and injectors. I know it's a pain to fill the filter on machines with a hand-operated priming pump but most machines these days have an electrically-operated pump which makes it easy. If I ever saw one of our guys filling fuel filters with diesel on any machine he'd have his hands cut off to make sure he didn't do it again ....... that's once he'd managed to extract my steel-toed boot from his ring piece.
I've said this before to people who have fuel pump and injector failures when they say we change the filters all the time . If you are going to fill the filters with dirty fuel or change them without washing the dirt off around the filter area first you might as well not change them at all because you are doing more harm then good. I see guys changing filters with dust dropping down off of lines and wires around the filter area and I just cringe.
Thanks, you learn something new every day, i will follow your advice for sure, still alot of old school out there though,thanks again.
Just wondering if you ever got to the bottom of the machine steering by itself,and alarm going of in the cabin.I am having the same problem and mechanics are unable to find problem
Hi just wondering if you found the problem with your machine steering by itself and alarm going of in cabin? I am having the same problem and mechanics cant seem to find a problem thanks
If no faults can be found replace the Steering Valve Actuator.
Had a 140M #B9D that suddenly could steer by itself either when grading or traveling down the road at full throttle, made the life exiting for the operator.... changed out the steering valve actuator and never had the problem come back.
There was a Priority Programme to replace steering valve actuators manufactured before a certain date. See whether or not it applies to your machine before going out to buy a new actuator (they're not cheap).
Oh, should have mentioned that also, the actuator we replaced was of the latest updated version, but even new things can break.
Generally after the PIP replacement we've had no issues with the actuators. Prior to that they were a pain.