I have a good customer who is a multi-millionaire lawyer who owns a big deer farm. One of his favorite toys is a 1941 Dodge military truck (the first thing to carry the name jeep). It has the original flathead 6 with a single barrel carb. He wants this thing to start and run like it is warm even at 25f. There is not much market for engine heaters here, do any of you Yankees think a heater in the lower radiator hose would work? I was looking at the circulating ones, but this thing has no heater hose to route it back into.
Yes, it will work fine. A block heater (core plug) is the standard, and that's what I'd try first. I'm sure the engine has a core plug, you just might have to have the engine down for a week waiting on the right heater, or a replacement core plug if there's no room for a heating element in the first one you pick.
For as long as that basic truck was in production, throughout the war and up to about 1970. I would think a block heater would be available. Ed
Go to Kat's web site, and start lookin. They can pretty much fit anything. A coupla notes, LR hose heater needs to be connected in a length of hose, with at least a 15º up tilt toward the motor. You may find that another type of heater may work better. The external tank heaters, that plug into the block drain and the thermostat bypass hose, are the best, in my experience... http://www.fivestarmanufacturing.com/guides
All that was available for those and or any flat head was a head bolt heater years ago. The main thing with the soft plug heater is the thickness of the block and that there is no cylinder in the way in the water jacket. Those had small diameter soft plugs so that will be the biggest problem plus the the soft plus were the dish style not the cup style found today. So the sealing surface on the inside may be rough. Lower hose heater truly would work the best if it will fit correctly. IMO. I'm guessing it's a Chrysler 241.
http://www.fivestarmanufacturing.com/pdf/kats-catalog-complete-2019_outlined_fonts.pdf
I've got a lower rad hose heater on one of my tractors, it works ok at best, the unit gets pretty damn hot and I don't quite trust it. Is there much flat surface on the oil pan? If so, get a glue on oil pan heater pad. far superior to the rad hose heater and a cleaner install. My question is, If he's that loaded, why not just build a heated garage!?!?!
Yes on the oil pan heater! Go to Truck Shop's link: http://www.fivestarmanufacturing.com/pdf/kats-catalog-complete-2019_outlined_fonts.pdf And scroll down to near the end around page 83 or 85 and see this: I figure if this thing does not have a heater the important thing is to get the oil warm so it cranks over good and easy. Have you looked into converting it to 12 volts, assume it was/is originally a 6 volt system. A 6 volt starter will work good on 12 volts so main thing would be converting lights and charging system. Check out some old farm tractor forums and I bet someone there can tell you how to modify the generator to do 12 volts!
Kind of puzzled why most you don't like lower hose heaters-same basic wattage as a frost plug heater. The benefit of a lower hose heater is that it will keep the radiator warm also. I had run them for years in my older rigs and never a problem-you just need to check the connection at the heater now and then to make sure there is no corrosion. I had the same lower hose heater in my 84 Dodge for the entire time I owned it {23 years} and used it every winter.
It's not that I don't like them but was just thinking that heating the oil might be a good option. As this truck does not have a cab or heater heating the coolant might not be as important as having warm oil flowing to the bearings on start up. If there is room to fit a lower hose heater in that should do fine and look nice. Besides to me if the coldest temps it is going to see is 25ºF I would not even call that cold!
Problem I've had with the pad or magnet type heaters is that they don't seem to heat it up much. On my lil kuboters, I use one of these, just slide it under the motor, and in 1/2 hr or so, the engine is warm to the touch, no electricity needed. Don't use these on leaky motors.
Does it have a manual choke on the single barrel carb? I wouldn't think that it would be a very hard starting engine at 25 deg. I drove a '67 chevy pickup with a inline 6 for years in below zero winter temps, with no block heater where I grew up in central iowa. It was manual choke and that has it all over a "automatic" choke, especially one that isn't working quite right. We didn't plug in anything in Iowa that wasn't a diesel. And it wasn't unusual to have a week or two in january or feb, where it wouldn't reach 0. 25 degrees is a pretty nice day up minnesota direction. Where I live now we don't see those colder temps. I kind of like khansens suggestion for going 12volt, that would make a big difference on cranking fast/ battery strength in the cold. It shouldn't have enough compression to turn over hard. I think a lower radiator hose heater would be the cheapest and easiest. I didn't know about the different frost plugs that truckshop pointed out, but that would make real issues sealing up.
Yeah 25f isn't cold! I'm sure it'll fire up fine. The higher wattage oil pan pads work well, the magnetic ones aren't of much use. I'll say the rad hose heaters are definitely the cheapest and easiest, not sure the wattage of mine, it takes a while when -20f or below (I'm used to min 1000w block heaters). Unit does get sizzling hot though, seems a bit hard on the hose.
I used a timer with the lower hose heater and set it for two hours before I would leave in the morning to cut down on electrical cost, I think the ones I used were around 6 to 700 watt. The problem with the old engines that used expansion plugs in stead of the cup type soft plus of later years is the block only has a small shallow counter bore for the expansion plug and the rest of the opening is rough cast in most cases unlike the machined surface that a cup type has. The other problem I can see with a six volt system is the ignition, more than likely the wiring is old and has resistance. Those old flat heads would start cold but the ignition system needed to be in top form for a good blue spark.
I don't even plug in anything until it hits about 10F.
another option is the silicone pad heaters that you glue to the oil pan, except glue it to the side of the water jacket part of the block.
Had a forklift with a 3 cylinder Duetz air cooled. the pan heater was a big help in the cold.
When you get old and wrinkly and arthritis starts setting up house keeping in your bones, you will want a warm car interior-pronto pup.
Well then I don't think many of us here would want to take a ride in that 1941 Dodge at least not till next May at the soonest!
That truck was not available after the war. You are thinking of the WM300-type trucks, (Power Wagon), that were built after the war. This truck does not have the same engine, although they did use a flathead 6 cylinder in the WM300 Power Wagons. I believe a few of the last WM300's, that were built only for export, may have had a slant 6 in them. You might want to ask this question over on the Dodge Power Wagon forum. There is a ton of info available from the guys over there. www.dodgepowerwagon.com
Oh come on now, I know if you just had the chance to ride in open air at 15* you would jump at the chance.
I've got a recirculating type block heater on the Chrysler flat 6 in my old Hobart portable welder. i'm not home til the end of the week and then I can see where I plumbed it in and then pass on the info. whenever I needed it I would plug it in for an hour or two or I would put it on a timer
The coffee pot type (recirculating type) are the best, in my book. Usedta have an allis D-19 turbo diesel, you had 1 shot at starting it, in cold weather. My grandfather had a ether can on solenoid, and that damn junkie tractor somehow figgered out how to push its own buttons. After the 2nd rebuild, I yanked that out by every root possible! What was in place then, was an air horn pre-heater, which if you heated it with 90% of the batteries' capacity, would occasionally start it, in the cold. Most of the time, it just killed the batteries. Bought a coffee pot, for it, went in from the block drain, to the thermostat bypass hose, about 12-1500 watts, IIRR. Best $20 I ever spent on that tractor AND, you can hear and feel it working, 1/2hr to 45 mins, and 4 barn cats would be perchin on the hood, purrin with approval! Was at an auction, today, picked up 2 Katt LR hose heaters, both new (I think)fer $10.00
I let the truck run for 20 minutes in the driveway regardless. Its toasty warm when I get in.
Well sure but only if owner wasn't around and I got to drive! Might want to put on my carhartt coveralls first!
Thanks Guys! I knew I would get plenty of advice here. I think I am going to go with a small recirculating tank type heater, maybe switched on by a thermostat whenever the temp gets around 50f. Now I just need to figure how to plumb it. I am probably going to go with a radiator hose adaptor, and maybe the block drain, though I am leery of unscrewing anything that has been screwed in for 78 years! If I go with the block drain, should I then go to the upper or lower hose? I know this is absurd. This thing has a delco 10si alternator and a 12v coil. The first service call I got to it was because it wouldn't start at 40f. I traced the choke cable to the firewall, got in the seat, pulled the choke, played with the accelerator and it started right up. I was asked what that knob did, nobody there knew a vehicle could have a choke. Some training and the employees can start it right up. Next service call, the owner couldn't remember that, so he poured the ether to it. It split the muffler wide open, BOOM! The owner "got scared" and gave up on his whole weekend's hunting and drove 75 miles home. He wants it start and run like it's July at any time.
If it was mine, I'd go in from the block drain, to the center of the block, or head, in the water jacket. You want as much vertical separation, between the drain, and the top of the water jacket, as possible. You also need to mount the heater in as near a vertical orientation, as possible, they don't take off camber mounting well, as they operate under the thermo siphon principal, just like a coffee pot. You want the heated coolant, to dump into the middle of the motor, for even heating, as you want the motor hot, not the radiator...
You said in the first post that this guy is a "multi-millionaire lawyer". Just goes to prove that being rich does not equate with smart. I just hope you are "smart" enough to make him pay big time for his lack of what most here would see as common sense. If he can't use his brain make sure he can use his check book!
I had the privilege of motoring about in Thule Greenland in that things brother, known as "Weapons Carrier". It would start in temps that would sap the batteries. Hook up jumper cable, apply full choke, no rproblem
The thermosyphon needs vertical height coming off the top of the heater to where it enters the engine. Even if the hot hose going into the engine is the lowest point on the water jacket, it will work fine if the heater is one foot below that point. So the lower water radiator hose would work fine for the supply as long as you can mount the heater low. Don't use the upper radiator hose, the heat will be able to be lost to the radiator. Be careful coming straight up off that head, if any air accumulates there it will stop the circulation. Maybe use a tee with a riser for the air to go to.
Sounds to me more like it may be a good case for fuel injection make it start like a newer vehicle for him
Chances are it may still need choke even if the motor is 100 degrees. Did anyone mention that square pipe plug above the water pump? Coffee pot heater, hot side there, cold side to a tee cut into the lower rad hose ("Jags that run" has them)
here is how the recirculating heater is plumbed into my Hobart welder engine. there is no temp gauge on this engine but a tee fitting would probably work on the cyl head but may not be as accurate as if it was actually screwed directly into the head. also, there is a picture of the original heater in the head bolt
That looks like it's BEGGING to be plugged in, those pics are making me cold.....
I hope it has some good ignition wires and dist. Cap or that is never going to start!
Dodge Command Car.
Isn’t that installed upside down. It should say up on one side and the cord should be at the bottom.
Wow! You are confused. Your picture is a Dodge 1/2 Ton Command car. They were not preferred by Commanders as enemy guns shot at them first. The "Jeep", which was not called that in the beginning was designed by American Bantam in 1939 or 1940. Bantam didn't have factory capacity. The US Army stole the design, issued contracts to Willys & Ford to build the much smaller four cylinder vehicle later known as Jeep.
Six volt systems are known as hard to start. They are old. A restoration should bring the system back to original condition. \ At six volts the needed current to do the job is double that of a twelve volt system. Cables must be bigger, and any point where one conductor ends, another begins must be perfect. This includes where castings bolt together. Eliminate the high resistance connections caused by 80 years of age, your six volt system starts pretty good.
Willie, read the posts. That was not the actual vehicle, just a representative photo. It is the same 1/2 ton vehicle, with a pickup type bed originally. It has absolutely no problem starting in any weather for me. The owner just wants it to have the original engine and systems, but start like his 2020 pickup. I'll post an update when I do it next week.
Still not a Jeep. The absolute authority for all Dodge trucks four wheel drive is VINTAGE POWER WAGONS Davenport Iowa. The owner Dave Butler, his son, and their employees are encyclopedias of this. I bet these people have a solution. If I'm not mistaken the original engine in this truck was the 216. A near identical 230 was used in the Power Wagon until 1960 they used the industrial 251. The 236 & 251 were 2' longer than 216 & 230. The 230 was prone to failed head gaskets. Not enough space between first two and last two cylinders.
mobiltech, if I remember correctly, about 40 years ago the heaters were installed with the cord coming out the top and then later they changed the design to be installed with the cord coming out the bottom. with the newer design, the top outlet was straight and the bottom(cord) end was angled. I could be wrong, but I have a vague memory of some heaters having a plastic check ball so that coolant could only flow one way. don't take this as gospel, this is only a vague memory