Hi Folks, I am new to this forum and hope I am doing this right for my first post. I recently inherited a 1968 580ck with a model 33 backhoe and loader. The machine has 3,875 hours on and was not serviced in years. When I tried to remove the hydraulic filter housing it broke. It looks like someone in the past took a pipe wrench to it. It has the 4 1/2" filter, not the 7 ". My question is does anyone have a source where I might find the housing? I talked to the folks at Tractor stuff in Indiana, but so far they have not come up with one. They tell me that the 4 1/2" is on the rare side compared to the 7". I asked if the housing base size was the same for both and that maybe I could just upgrade to the 7", but they were not sure. appreciate any thoughts or guidance. thank you!
Messick's seems to be able to get it. If they can get it any CNH dealer should be able to. LINK LINK
Hi Tinkerer, thank you for the info. I will check this out. These folks are not far from me. I appreciate the help. The folks on here are very knowledgeable and helpful.
when i was repairing a bunch of issues on my old ck i found the bypass part of the hyd filter was damaged and basically constantly bypassing the filter. had no luck finding a replacement housing so i used a filter from the local hyd shop. uses the spin on type filters. mounted it where the original one was and seems to work just fine.
Hi Funny farm, I just saw this. I have been off for awhile due to medical issues. I got a housing from Tractor Stuff and installed it. now I have another issue. I will put it out there on here and hopefully someone can help me. When I replaced the housing, I took the hoses apart to make sure there was no debris down in the lines. The debris was from trying to get the old hosing canister apart. I had to use a hammer and chisel. In hind site, bad idea. After I put everything back together, I started it up with no issues. I ran the bucket up and down and had no issue. When I went to lift one of the outriggers it seemed like the valve suck and all of sudden the engine shut down. Now it won't start. When I hit the starter it seems like it try's to starts, puffs some black smoke and then the smoke turns blue. I have fuel flow through the filters and out of the feed line to the pump. I took off the return line and have some flow out of when I hit the starter. The unit is a 1968 580CK with 3,875 hours. it has the 188 motor. I just put fresh fuel in about a month ago. It has always started and ran with no issues. It almost seems like the valve deadheaded and stalled the engine. Not sure why it would not just go to bypass on the hydraulic system. Not sure if anyone else has experienced anything like this. I would appreciate and guidance on what to look for next. Thank you!
Make sure your quick couplers in the main feed hoses to the hoe are coupled together properly, Rarely , but I have seen those disconnect. If this is the problem it will act like it is turning over slow.
Thank you for the reply. I took apart the quick disconnects to make sure there was no debris in them. I double checked to make sure I put them back together correctly. Checked the connections to make sure they were tight. I disconnected the hoses to the hoe and connected them as loop bypassing the hoe. The engine turns over well at first and then drains down some. I had the battery hooked up to the truck for help. I will go back and double check everything again. thank you!
Try by-passing the new filter assembly. That will verify that it hasn't created a blockage. There is also a chance something has made it's way into the hydraulic pump.
Hi Tinkerer, Thank you for the reply. That is my fear that some debris got in the system. I did run the bucket up and down with no issues when I put it back together. I will have to come up with some hoses to make up a bypass. Just for future info, doesn't the system have a bypass to take care of a blockage? Is the thought that the engine shut off due to an overload in the hydraulic system? If so, what happens? Does the hydraulic system put a load on the engine and keep it from starting? Like I said it started right up after I put it back together and it was running well. Front bucket functioned with no issues. The engine shut off when I went to move the outrigger. My son said maybe the fuel gelled up from the cold and caused an issue. Any thoughts on that? I have not used the machine in the cold before.
There are lot of things that could cause the problem you are having. Does the motor turn over ok with the starting motor ? Or does it turn a couple of (few) times and then slows way down and stop cranking ? ---> If it does that it indicates the hydraulic pump is overloading the motor due to a blockage or complete failure.
yes, it will turn over and puff a little black smoke and then it turns blue and slows to a stop. not sure where to start, but I guess my next step is to start disconnection hoses. thank you for the reply.
What stops ? The engine turning or the blue smoke ?
the engine turning over stops. the engine will not fire.
It is difficult to say for sure what the problem is. I'm thinking the hydraulic pump is building a high pressure and causing the motor to stop turning. If that's what is happening it will never start. That is why Melben suspected that the quick couplers were a problem. You could connect a HIGH pressure gauge in the line that goes from the pump outlet to the control valve to see if what the pressure is while cranking the motor. That will be a royal pain in the ###. Or you could disconnect that same high pressure line from the control valve and see if the motor will start. You would need to catch the oil in a bucket and not let the hydraulic tank go empty.
Ignore the flow-meter that is connected in the pump outlet circuit. I thought maybe this image would help you identify the hose from the pump that will be holding extreme pressure if you have a blockage in the loader valve.
Thank you for the info. Everything helps. This is a great forum with great knowledgeable people. I had few minutes yesterday and followed the lines from the pump. My plan is what you suggest. It will be a few days till I get back to it, but plan on trying it early next week. I just received a service manual yesterday which will be help to identify things. This machine runs good and I am not happy with myself for screwing it up all due to being impatient. I knew better than to take a chance of getting debris in the hydraulic system. I thought I took enough hoses apart and flushed them to not have a problem. With all that said now it is time to dig in and get this fixed. Thank you again for the help. I will let you know what happens next.
If you haven't seen the oil flow schematic, I have posted it here, perhaps it will help you or someone else with hydraulic problems. Notice the relief valve in the pump. It could be contaminated.
Evening, An update, I disconnected the line coming from the pressure side of the pump. Set up a 5 gallon bucket to capture oil. The engine fired and pumped oil into the bucket. I then did the same on the hose going to the filter and again engine fired and pumped oil into the bucket. As Melben suggested I unhooked the quick disconnect to the hoe and plug into the return. I started the engine and it ran. I also put the bucket up and down. At this point I figure my issue is at the hoe control valves. All of sudden the engine shut off and I have not been able to get it to start again. With all that said, it seems the pump is ok and the engine fires. I guess my next step is to pull the hoses off the valve body at the bucket control. I was also thinking I should drain the whole system and try to flush it. Any thoughts on that process? Not sure next best step. Appreciate any thought or feedback. Thank you all for the help.
Thank goodness the pump is ok ! I don't know if flushing the system will accomplish much if a piece of crap is lodged in the loader control valve. After the motor bogs down try to start it while holding the loader lever in the raise position.
Evening Tinkerer, Thank you for the reply. The weather was nice here in Pa and I took time to do the test that was suggested. Step 1, tried to start the engine just to confirm where I was at. The engine would not start. Step 2, held the loader control valve in the raised position, the engine started right up and continued to run as long as I keep the bucket going up or down. When I left the valve closed the engine would start to slow down to an eventual stop. Step 3, I plugged the supply and return hoses for the backhoe back in. With the loader control valve in the raised position the engine started and I tried to raise the backhoe boom. It would not come right up. I had to pull the control handle and then let it go. It would come up a little at time while I did that. The same for the stabilizer. I would think the unit is not designed to move the bucket and something on the hoe at the same time. Please confirm. If I stopped moving the bucket up or down, the engine would start to stall. At least I was able to move some of the hoe components. I made a video, but am not sure how to load it. In the end, as long as I had the loader control valve in some sort of open position the engine purrs right long, which I would think the hydraulic pump is ok and of course the engine is ok. That is big load off my mind. So after this long explanation I was looking in my manual at the loader control valve. It seems it would not take much of something to clog the system. Is my next step to pull the loader control valve body down and take it apart and make sure there is nothing in the main relief valve? Thank you for your time and I appreciate the help.
Posting your video directly on HEF is not possible, Smtnjim. It can be if you put it on another hosting site like YouTube. If you do that, you can then copy and paste the URL of it, and then insert that URL in your post here Do you have the service manual for your 580CK ??
Tinkerer, I do have a service manual. I will have to look into the video. Never did any of that.
The loader control valve section begins on page #334. I think the answers to your problem will be explained there. If you are not comfortable with dismantling and diagnosing what is causing the problem you may need hands on help with it. If you are OK with taking it apart, you will see in the manual what tools you need and how to set pressures. The power beyond valve is where I would start. It may be contaminated and causing the high pressure. DirtyHoe has a thread with a detailed repair of his valve HERE.
For whatever reason, my loader control valve info starts on page 115 and goes to 128. I have a Case 580 CK loader backhoe tractor service manual. Form 9-72562. I got it from Peaceful Creek Manuals. As far as tools, it shows the gland wrench (690154) and the spring compressor (690156). Is there other tools needed? Thank you for the DirtyHoe thread. I will get the valve assembly off first and then go from there. There is an equipment repair shop near me that works on heavy equipment. Not sure, but I imagine they would know something about the hydraulic systems. Even though I would like to do this myself, I may consider seeking help from them.
Sorry, Smtnjim, I was looking in the 580C manual. I had an experience a long time ago with someone that should not have taken a loader valve apart. The previous owner of my tractor always had problems if he lowered the FEL too fast. When it would drop to the ground the hoist would completely quit working from a few seconds to several minutes. He owned it for quite few years and never fixed it for some reason. It drove me nuts whenever I rented it from him !! The first thing I did when I bought the tractor from his widow was completely dismantle the loader control valve. It didn't take me long to find that someone had taken it apart before I did. As a result, a small spring behind a check valve was missing for some reason. Sorry for the long post, but it explains what can go wrong when an inexperienced person, can have happen in something as complicated as multi-function hydraulic valves
No sorry needed. The more info from someone experienced with these things the better. Due to the weather over here, it will be a bit till I get back to it. I will let you know when I get the assembly off and what I decide to do.
Hello Tinkerer, Well it has been awhile, but I finally got back to the loader control valve on my 1968 580 ck. Between your advice and and a conversation with Dale from Tractor Stuff I decided to have a local shop do the rebuild. Dale got me the rebuild kit and I took the valve off and dropped it off at the shop. The folks at the shop did not find any blaring pcs or problems with the valve. One of the dentin balls was out of place. No broken parts. With that said today I picked it up and put it back on the machine. I went to start it and had nothing at the starter. After using a screw driver to kick the starter, it fired up, but wanted to shutdown again. You can imagine my disappointment. I disconnected the hose back to hoe and bypassed it to the loader control valve, same thing. Engine won't stay running unless I am moving the bucket up and down. I called the shop and they told me when they tested it the quick disconnect stuck. With that I took apart the disconnect valve and cleaned them and made sure the guts were in the right position. I started it up and it works great. Melben was right on as far as making sure the disconnects were hooked up right. Now I have to figure out my starter problem. I think it might be on the starter switch located at the shifter. I put a meter on it to check it out , but got interrupted by a blow in rain storm. I was done for the day. I will get back to it tomorrow. Thank you to you and Melben for the help. I really appreciate it.