I have it tore down to replace it but I'm not sure the last guy used the right gasket. According to the book I should have fire rings and this one doesn't and seems to be oversized around the sleeves. It seems like the gasket is the same outer size as the sleeve and with the gasket in place it looks like it would leak. The gasket in there has the metal crush ring around the sleeve but it just doesn't look right to me. I hope someone can help before I order the wrong one.
I'd suggest that you call Dale Weiss at Tractorstuff and he will know the difference. I don't have his number here but you can look it up. Dale has helped me with my overhaul project and made sure I got the correct parts. On my 188 rebuild, I did not use the gasket with separate fire rings, but the sleeves were replaced, so maybe no longer necessary with what the shop put in.
Thanks Juskatla I just got off the phone with Dale. He says the later model engines(1st used eng ser# 2656844) can used an after market gasket with the ring built in. He also reminded me to put the hollow bolt in the last hole for the rocker train. I didn't know he owned the place when I asked for him but he took his time and researched everything. Very nice guy to deal with.
I have been told that Dale once owned a Case dealership and eventually moved into the business he has now. He is very experienced with these machines and can supply either Case/CNH or quality aftermarket parts at reasonable prices. I think he has a supply of used take off pieces if you have something missing. I live on the west coast of Canada and my parts have always arrived promptly via USPS.
I picked up the new gasket set and it's the same thing that was in there but it still doesn't look right to me. Everything I've read says this gasket should work and has been being used for years. My local auto parts guy crossed the case# 1349089C1 to a Fel-Pro# HS 8269 PT The reason I say it doesn't look right is there seems to be too much space between the crimped fire ring on the gasket and the sleeve. Also the sleeve has a groove that protrudes above the block and has carbon build up so that means it's not touching the head but it's close. The head bolts were loose to me when I pulled it, maybe with the proper torque it will seat the gasket fire ring better. Here's a few pics, it looks like the leak was between 3 & 4. Here's a better pic of the sleeve groove and gasket Here's the sleeve protrusion above the block I guess I'll go with it and start doing clean up to get it back together, I may send the head to get worked and check for cracks too.
Off topic but in my wheel house.. while the inj.pump is off.. run your finger inside the brass pilot tube in the front.. if you feel any grooves, get the pump repaired now, while its off the engine.. Otherwise it'll start filling up the crankcase w/ fuel. I hope you tied the throttle lever back to wide open before you took it off??
I didn't tie it back and just went check the weights, all seem in place when I turn the pump with a screwdriver. I also checked the brass tube and it's good, I did rebuild it about 3 years ago so it should be good still=hopefully.
that's good.. just wanted to give you "a heads-up" for any potential problems.. keep at it, you'll get it runnin..
Be sure to do a meticulous job of cleaning that top deck. DO Not get too aggressive and remove any metal. NONE. Those sleeves are supposed to protrude above the deck. There is a way to measure that protrusion. It is extremely important they all protrude the EXACT same amount. If they don't you will have a big time problem getting the head gasket to seal. By the looks of those studs there has coolant seeping around them.
It is hard to see but the sleeve(liner) protrusion is actually measured at the outer flange of the liner and not the large raised area in your picture. On an old, high hour engine it will likely be about 0- .002". If its less than .001" it may eventually cause compression leakage. You may want to do a re-torque after the engine has been run and again after a few hrs use if the liner protrusion is less than .001". It may help squeeze a few more hours out of the old girl until an overhaul is required. The carbon on that raised portion of the liner is normal because the cyl head does not contact that part of the liner, only the outer flange area above the crimped fire ring part of the head gasket. If the liner has a small raised bead on the outer flange, be careful not to gouge it while cleaning because it is there to help seal the fire ring.
This is the only method that should be used to measure the cylinder protusion. This photo was provided by a true master Case mechanic named Phil. Unfortunately for us he has not posted anything for a long time
Thanks guys, I've been cleaning it up some and called for prices on a head job. I don't think I'm putting that much money into this old thing. I'll lap the valves and clean her up and go from there.
In your first post you said the gasket didn't look right. It is fine . Look at Phil's photo and you can see real well how the steel ring in the head-gasket sets on the sleeve flange. If the prices on having the head redone arn't real bad I would advise you let them do it. They will chck for excessive valve guide wear which is important when it comes to controlling blow-by.
They quoted $350-1k and I'm not dumping that much into this head, I need the head gasket fixed and use that money in other places. I don't use this machine daily and I can handle a little rough running machine for the little work it does. Next problem: The valve guide seals that came with this set is different from what's in there, someone put umbrella seals in and I can't find a P/N for new ones. Has anybody used these and have a p/n?
Umbrella seals are not uncommon in those engines. #26 in the photo is the OEM style. I fully understand about spending a lot of money on the head when it is a seldom used machine. I wouldn't either in that situation.
What's the p/n? I have the original book and it's just an o'ring type.
G46851 is the original part number http://partstore.casece.com/us/parts-search.html#epc::mr49912ar252371
That's the same p/n in my book and it's just the o-ring type. I researched a few sites and many people are saying just measure the valve diameter and go to Napa and they can look up an umbrella seal and order them. There's two types, one is snug on the valve and rides up and down with the valve and the other is called positive and it attaches on the valve guide and the valve slides through it as it moves, both are supposed to reduce smoking when the engine is running. John Deere has been using them since the 60's. There's also discussion about umbrella seals will wear out the valve guide faster due to the limited amount of oil that the seals allow to the guide. I don't see this being a problem, the valves will suck some oil down the guide and on older engines it will clear up some of the exhaust smoke. Some engines only have them on the intake valve and some engines use a high temp material for exhaust valves to handle the heat better. I'm putting the old seals back in, I cleaned them up and they're still pliable and will work. I lapped the valves yesterday and didn't notice any slop in the valve guides so it should be fine. Fingers crossed of course.
You have a good handle on what you are doing RadRob. You have to draw a line as far as sinking a lot of unnecessary money in a seldom used machine. Those seals should serve you well.
Well it was going smooth putting the head back together BUT... I had 1 injector that I couldn't get out so I used a 1/4" extension and drove it out, I won't be using that one again. I also had a different injector someone put in that didn't match so I went hunting and found that Case has them for $190 each while Ebay has them for $24 each. WOW what a mark up Huh! At that price it's gonna be all new injectors. I put the head on and while torquing it down found a stripped stud, GRRRR!!! Now I have to figure that out. It's close to where my leak was so that could be the culprit that caused all this. There's studs in this block instead of bolts and this stud was only screwed in about 6 threads so I may be able to clean up the remaining threads with a tap. I'll get 2 new studs from the bolt place, I also found a bolt with washers on it for a head bolt. The City mechanic really rigged this thing up. I have to give it to him through, he kept the machine running and that's what he was there for. Maybe he figured it was gonna be scraped soon anyway. I also noticed he removed the linkage for the right side brake, OH Boy is this thing gonna be fun to get completed!!!! Rob
I would never mix different kinds of bolts and /or studs for a head-gasket situation. I worry about the expansion rates being different among them when the temperature changes while the engine is running. Be sure to apply sealant to all the block threads to prevent coolant seepage. Permatex 80632 is a good one.
I had an issue with a couple of studs that I couldn't get out. The machine shop took care of that and I called Dale at Tractorstuff and he had a used stud of the correct length that he sent me. Couldn't get any local so even at the Case dealer. Would have been a month through them anyway as they have to order anything I need in from CNH. Got it from Dale in 5 days.
If the stud goes into the water jacket, it will require some type of thread sealer on it, otherwise it will leak coolant. Your best bet would likely be a heli-coil thread repair with sealer also on the outside of the thread insert, assuming there is enough material around the hole to allow drilling and tapping for the insert. On some engines, some studs are too close to the liner counterbore, although from your pictures there may be room. But first, try the new stud as far down as there are threads and if it is a blind hole, use a bottoming tap and thread right to the bottom of the hole to try and gain another thread or two. Some studs use a tapered end, so you may want to remove the tapered portion because the threads are not full threads and will not fully engage the threads in the block and you want as much thread contact as possible provided the stud is long enough overall. Start the thread clean-up with a taper tap and then after, change to a bottoming tap. Good luck
On the 188D, most studs go right through to the water jacket. When I got mine back from the machine shop, I used a tap to clean all the threads in the block and applied sealer to each one as it was threaded back. A couple could have been threaded down past where they were supposed to be, so watch the length above the block to have enough for the nut to fully go on.
Thanks guys! I had a funeral yesterday and got back to it today. I got lucky on the stripped threads and bought a bolt that worked. It seems the stud was just catching a few threads in the block when it stripped and I got the proper length bolt and got it torqued down. I feel good about getting it back together and it should hold. Today was chasing bolts and belts. I have a local oilfield bolt/nut shop close and they had everything I needed so far to replace the bad stuff I pulled out. I was dreading removing the hydraulic pump to replace the fan/alt belt but it came out easy. I had to buy a new alternator after having the old one tested and then went to fitting the belt. This thing came with a generator I think because the alternator bracket was scrapped together and the belt was so loose that the alternator was hitting the frame and no more adjustment. The guy also didn't use a plug, he wrapped the wire around the power lug and I think that may have grounded out the windings. 55 bucks later I'm out the door with a new alternator and a plug to wire it correctly. I won't be able to get back to it till maybe Sunday but it's coming together slowly and it'll be right for the next guy to work on. I'll rewire the whole thing too, I found they used the relay for the intake heater for the starter, I might need that heater one day!!
I've been slacking but I can blame the weather, too much wind and rain. I finally got the parts I needed in, I found a bent pushrod and ordered 4 new injectors. $108 for all parts shipped, I hope those cheap injectors work!!
I've been busy with other projects and finally got it back together yesterday but it wouldn't start and that really ticked my off. I couldn't find any marking on the flywheel and I know it's timed right. Well today I go out and try to start it and still nothing but white smoke so I start looking thinking there's something wrong and found the fuel shutoff lever in the closed position. Bang she fired and after a few minutes I adjusted the timing by rotating the pump and I think it was assembled one tooth off because it could use a little more adjustment. The cheap Ebay injectors fit perfect and work fine. BUT I'm still getting water in the oil so now I'm guessing it's a sleeve O'Ring or a cracked block. So I'm here with my friend Jim(Beam) talking it over as to what I should do next. What a letdown of a day. I bought it to build a house and it's paid for itself but having it around is nice for those odd jobs that pop up. Should I do a pressure test and find the sleeve that's leaking or dump some stop leak and hope for the best. I'm open to suggestions but I think I know the answer.
First with engine running and pressure in the radiator remove the valve cover and look for any water there. If there is none take the oil pan off. Then pressurize the cooling system and look for the leak.
I think I might've jumped the gun on water in the oil. I just went check the oil again and it looks normal except there's a little moisture at the top of the dip stick. I'm hoping that's from the left over water that was in it when I pulled it apart. I'll crank it back up in a few minutes and let it get back to temp and see if it works all the moisture out. Fingers crossed!!
Are you running straight water in the cooling system? water is less harmful than glycol if it gets in the oil. Don't worry about the little condensation on the dipstick if the oil at the bottom looks clear. It should clear up after getting up to temperature and the rings sealing a bit.
Yes just straight water. I pulled the valve cover to check inside and I don't see water coming from any where, I pulled the T-stat and the radiator was still full. I'll run it up to temp and see if it clears up some of the moisture.
Run it up to temp. then let it sit a few hrs. pull the oil pan drain plug and catch some if there's water in the oil it will be on the bottom of the pan.
Thanks for all the help!!! Good news on the water, there's no leak and it was just residual moisture. NOW I have a new leak and I'm assuming it runs off the shuttle shift fluid because when it leaks about 1 gallon of oil the tranny won't engage, it's at the top of the steering box under the steering wheel. I looked in the book and can't find anything saying it runs off of shuttle shift and only off of the power steering pump. What am I missing here. I see in the book there's a repair kit but I'm still confused about the shuttle shift/steering connection.
There is no no fluid inter-connection with the steering and shuttle that I can see in the service manual. The steering is a stand-alone system. Where are you replacing that gallon of oil that leaks out ?
In the 4 speed shifter tranny. I didn't see a connection either, maybe it's leaking somewhere else and I can't see it.
The transmission is connected to the rear gear case and shares the same 17 qts of gear oil. Don't overfill as you will end up with oiled brakes or oil in the axle housings. I had a little of both on mine and replaced all the seals and brake linings for good measure. Your shuttle is separate and uses TCH or Hytran. The diagram that Tinkerer has posted shows the separate steering system. It also uses TCH or Hytran. If you are putting a gallon of oil into your transmission, I'd want to know where its going...
The transaxle requires 80/90w gear oil. Is that what you see leaking ? Everything else except the engine requires TCH oil or better. You must be seeing hydraulic (TCH) oil.
It's leaking from under the steering wheel and it seems to never stop leaking. I used it to spread gravel and knowing it would leak I still tried to get it done. I have to add a gallon of TCH oil to the fill plug in front of the gear shift on the tranny, it's the most forward plug/dipstick. If I don't add the oil the machine won't move so after about 10 minutes I have to refill it. I also checked the back dipstick and it's not over filled. I checked the power steering pump and it's empty but fluid is still leaking under the steering wheel and it's leaking down the lines from the top. Two things that it might be is the oil is leaking from the starter or it just needs more fluid after sitting for 3 years. How much oil is in the bell housing or is it called torque tube? I did notice after a little research is that the lines from the power shuttle valve to the filter are backwards from the book, does the filter assembly have a reverse flow check valve? I'll swap those around when the rain stops. It's lines 20 & 21
It's actually the torque tube that I'm filling, the plug on the left.
You may have several issues that are masking the problem. If you have the means, a good cleaning will help isolate the leak(s) and you can focus on them one at a time. The starter leak should be an easy fix, if its just the O ring. The Operators Manual shows 16 qts capacity TCH for the torque tube with power shuttle. If you have an oil cooler issue, it would transfer oil into the coolant as they run under different pressures. Check the transmission and rear end gear oil for level to be sure you are not transferring shuttle TCH into the rear gear case. There is a tube between the torque tube and the transmission case that is normally plugged on these tractors but on mine the plug and clamp had come loose and my levels were high in the rear causing seal leaks. May not be your problem but if you can't find anything else.... In my 68 Case Project thread, there are some pictures of this and other stuff that be of interest.
Change the hydraulic filter element as soon as you can. Correct the filter line arrangement to match the diagram .
My plan is to fix the steering seal and replace the filter and install the lines correctly and go from there. I did read about the torque tube having that pipe to the rear on some models that had a plug in it. I'll tear into that after I fix the leaks and clean it up some.
I just came in from attempting to replace the Hand pump seal and discovered I have a rainbow coming out of my butt. When I pulled the cover under the steering column to inspect for a leak all I could see was oil dripping down the lines from the hand pump so I assumed that was the leak but today I couldn't get the lines off the pump and had to use a pipe wrench to hold the short extension pipe from spinning so I took off the dash and that made it easy to see. Well I found the transmission pressure guage line laying under the steering column pointed up towards the hand pump so I crank it up and sure enough it's pouring fluid. I replaced the guages with a different set that has oil, temp and charging and never noticed the trans pressure guage so now I put the old guage back on it and it works so I need to mount it but for now I have it tucked under the left side of the dash and it's visible from the seat. So I'm gonna eat lunch and go get a tranny filter, swap those lines around and hope for the best.
Nice to get some wins as you go through this. You will get them one at time and it will be good in the long run.
I had to order the filter yesterday and I just finished putting it on and swapping the lines. There was no filter in the canister so I guess they took it off after crossing the lines to make it work. I topped her off with fluid and it's got good pressure according to the gauge and it drives fine. I'm gonna put her through the paces today spreading crushed concrete if the rain holds off. I'll be back because I need to fix the brakes and start rebuilding some cylinders. Thanks again!!!!
If there wasn't any filter in the canister you prolly should get a couple more. That new one may be plugged in a very short time. It is amazing someone hooked the lines up backwards and then decided the filter was the problem.
I don't always reverse the lines, but when I do I ALWAYS remove the filter. Wouldn't want that junk getting back into the oil, would you?
I'm heart broken, she ain't right. I'm getting blow back in the cooling system and when I start it up now with a full radiator, it spits water out. The problem started after i ran it for an hour spreading gravel and I noticed it burped some thick brown rusty crude from the overflow so I let it cool, drained the radiator and flushed it a few times but I'm still getting more gunk and it's still spitting out water from the overflow when I start it with the radiator full. I flushed the radiator when it was out but I guess there's some gunk in the block. It looks like rust mud, really thick and nasty. I'm keeping an eye on the temp when I use it to make sure I don't mess anything else up. The good news is the gravel is spread and I also worked on a septic system and she's a beast as long as I don't run her too long to over heat. This took longer than I thought it should(2 days), I had to find the septic tank to have it pumped out but nobody knew where it was so it was a case of=I think it's here= I finally found it and there's 2, one for the dishwasher and another for the rest of the house. Long story and process but I should have it finished tomorrow. This is a Caddyshack theme chasing gophers. I don't know how I always get involved in these rabbit hole jobs for my family and do it for free.
Remove the thermostat and do a good reverse flush of the engine. Reverse flush the radiator also but separately from the engine. If the crud is that bad you gotta flush it all out, even if you have to do it several times. Radiators are designed to cool clean coolant.
Heck my ol 430 case hates water. I cant run it full as it will spit it out as fast as i put it in.. I just do not knot know what keeps it cool cause it sure as heck is not a full radiator.LOL I have been thinking about tearing into to it 4 years ago and i have spread over 4000 yards of fill since then .. My ol case looks like junk , hates water but starts and runs like a dream.. Oh it also seems to dislike hydraulic oil also.lol
I ran my 580 B without a thermostat for 5 years because every time I tried sticking one in it used water. Never had a mins. problem without one.
Coolant coming out the overflow tube would indicate it is time for a new, known to be good radiator cap. Other things can cause the problem such as overfilling. But the new cap is cheap and easy.
Heck if i tighten down my cap you can watch the radiator expand till the cap blows open so i leave it loose lol, I also get oil in my radiator so i know something in the ol gal is giving up lol
Diver : The oil in your radiator is most likely coming from the the shuttle oil cooler. It is inside your radiator at the bottom.
I have a mechanical shuttle. No oil cooler in my radiator.. Just oil lol
I've also heard that with these "new" cylinder head gaskets, it's a good idea to use copper spray on them.
Had those studs already been removed? Should i bother to remove them and use sealant if they haven't been altered?
I have the same ill-fitting new head gasket!