yes titles wrong its 580b not 540 When i got this thing, it would leak coolant out of the cap on startup. The filler neck looked bent like it hit a branch. I replaced the 1971 radiator with a new one, and the water pump and radiator cap. It didn't have a thermostat so I added a new one. On startup it began blowing coolant out the vent tube on the radiator cap. I had a new ornamental cap so I replaced that with the cap that came with the new radiator same thing happened. I removed the thermostat, and still blows coolant out the vent tube on cold start, 2 gallons came out. On any other vehicle car truck tractor, i have routinely filled the radiator, left the cap off, let it idle until the thermostat opens, and if needed topped it off as the thermostat opens and fluid level drops. This is impossible to do in this case, if the cap is off it will blow out 2 gallons of coolant real quick on cold start at idle. I'm not familiar with this engine and coolant circuit, but it appears it is pressurizing on start up which is not what I would expect to happen unless something is clogged up somewhere like some coolant bypass circuit. Prior to installing the radiator I garden hose flushed the block no problem there. Any ideas on whats wrong here ?
Does this sound like a blown head gasket ? I have not seen any oil in the coolant or coolant in the oil.
So, have you had it up to operating temperature? I recall old Ford trucks with 3208's would blow 2 gallons or more on start up. The sight glass was literally half way down the tank. Maybe you need a recovery bottle and a cap to work with it
I used it to dig a hole on day one and got it good and hot, it never made any noises or anything like it was overheated. But I think it was low on coolant at the time as I didn't have the hood off, you cant see the coolant leaking really with the hood on unless you are looking for it. I don't know, I just suspect this isn't proper behavior lol. I also thought at first well if it had an overflow it could just suck it back, but it seems it is getting pressurized on cold start so I'm now wondering if that means head gasket ? As I said I don't know the coolant circuit on this perhaps something could be stopped up on a bypass and the water pump[ pressure is blowing it out ? I don't see that s viable really since it does this with the thermostat out as well. I think the first question is to be answered by any 580b diesel owners, can you leave the cap off on cold start or will they blow out coolant normally and the cap has to be on at cold start idle ? (and since it is blowing it out the vent tube I don't think this even matters, it appears to be getting pressurized beyond the caps capability.)
Overheated diesel almost never make any abnormal sounds as long as they have oil pressure. It's when everything cools, that ugly stuff happens. Head, head gasket, liner and injector cup, these are all things that could have been compromised during your "heat event." The other possibility is you got one hell of an air pocket. Do you have a pressure tester available? Have you checked the thermostat housing and water manifold for a bleeder?
ok for pressure tester, are we saying pressurize the radiator to a few pounds and see if it leaks down (like it has a blown head gasket or other leak ?), cause I can make a tester for that from tool s that I have. as for bleeder, do you mean is it leaking coolant anywhere around the housing, no there are no leaks.
Regarding bleeder, look for a small pipe plug or legitimate bleed screw. Loosen it up cold to let any trapped air out. As far as pressure tester just plumb in a gauge and crank the engine over. If the gauge jumps violently, with a cold engine you, have internal leakage.
ok let me check the manual for a bleeder, and i think i may have the stuff to try the gauge test. since the cap itself isn't leaking but it is coming out the cap pressure vent, i think i can just plumb right to that and see if it is pressuring ? or should i plumb into something like the water temp sensor so I am getting psi direct from coolant circuit and not after it has exceeding cap psi ?
i have another idea, what if i remove the fan belt, and start it, if its blowing water out without a water pump i would think we can rule out everything coolant system related except head gasket or worse ?
i removed the belt filled the radiator cold started at slow idle maybe 600 rpm ,very slow water pulsed out of the open uncapped radiator in time with the engine shooting 3 to 6 inches in the air blown head gasket?
Time to pull the head, atleast it's easy access! Just make sure you support the loader good and proper. Also I like your detailed descriptions
okey doke, yeah i think its the head, so tomorrow i will start it and move it about 75 feet from under the shade tree i have been using, to a partially enclosed building cause all the rain has made working on this suck. i have been going over the info here HeavyEquipmentForums and plan to seek advice here as i tackle this, i have the repair manual but i'm sure it lacks important tips lol. i have replaced 3 heads before, so i'll be unsure on things like making sure i keep things timed up, any disconnecting of the fuel injector system from the head, i saw make sure the head is not laid flat or damage to injectors. i think a lot is no brainer take off this and that, but feel free to shout out warnings now as i prepare to remove the head. thanks all
It could be a cracked head or gasket. There's no cam in the head, pushrods only, so there's no timing to mess up. The injector lines should swing out of the way if you loosen both ends, use a wrench on the injector so you don't torque the injector when loosening the nut. There might be a coolant passage hose under the head that's only replaceable with the head off, replace that. If you don't see an obviously bad head gasket leak to the cooling passages, then check the head next, or have it checked.
I would just add, that since you are chasing a compression leak, remove the injectors before removing the head. It'll be much easier to extract from the head while it's still secured to the engine vs chasing it around on your tailgate. I like your logic in taking off the water pump belt . An old timer showed me that trick about 20 years ago. I completely forgot. Sorry for that. Good luck , hoping for the best
I'm not understanding how the injectors could be involved in cylinder pressure passing to the coolant circuit. I plan to leave the injectors in place and remove the head, one less thing to mess with reinstalling and messing up. i have a video of the gelled up oil in the valve cover area, pretty impressive, I'm going to have to pull the pan and clean it out too now after seeing it.
I wonder how much running this with no thermostat may have had to do with this gelling mess after coolant began passing into the oil and couldn't get BAKED OUT
Cuz the machine shop isn't going to remove them from the head for free. The nozzle tips protrude below deck. From the tail gate to the machine shop they could be damaged. By the way, your injector is in a copper sleeve swaged into the head, in most diesels. That copper sleeve is surrounded with coolant. If the cup is damaged, you can get combustion gas in the cooling system. Obviously, by the pic you posted, you have a 2 way street , most likely a head gasket. If you're keeping the machine for the long haul, check everything and confirm your leak. Make sure you verify all critical measurements. Liner height, deck and head flatness Good luck
You do a compression test through the injector holes. A compression test might be worthwhile before tearing the head off, leakdown test to see where the compression is going.
Yeah, that too. I shoulda remember that
yeah i have a leak down tester so i can do that, are these injectors in the 188 diesel DEFINITELY surrounded by a cooling jacket that could be the culprit (in addition to all the other suspected areas) ? as for checking all tolerances, ill be posting all that here to get feedback as i inspect it all also, anyone know a good place to ship this head to for rebuild ? thanks
I need to see if the tools i have will work for diesel, what kind of max psi are we looking at for a compression test on this engine forget it, i see in the manual about 400 psi or so
There are no coppers in that head the nozzles just fit in a straight hole drilled thru the head. Bob
I'm at the point of removing rockers and push rods, then head bolts. Looking into the exhaust ports cylinders 1 2 and 4 are black sooted and dry, cylinder 3 is moist to wet and the exhaust valve stem is much cleaner and shiny is places. Looks like cylinder 3 is the issue, probably (hopefully) blown head gasket. I skipped leak down test cause my tester doesn't have a fitting that will work and it looks like cyl 3 is the area to concentrate on. I'm not trying to rebuild just put back in service until I decide to do more thorough rebuilding at a later date to include engine and trans. Appeared to have life left in it so I want to use that if possible. We will see.
ok so I am having trouble getting the head off, i see at least one post here about dowel pins and pb nut blaster. i have removed everything from the head, intake exhaust rockers push rods etc 19 bolts/nuts including the 2 fancy ones that hold the valve cover on (i still have the 2 long studs sticking up but the lower large nuts are removed ) i have removed 4 bolts from the water pump housing that appear to thread into the head. I have not removed any other fasteners from the front housing as they all seem to be lower than the head and go into the block. the book seems to indicate that you do not need to remove this front cover to remove the head, although there is a gasket between the front cover and the front of the head. when i look at pictures of this front gasket it appears to have 6 holes but i have only pulled 4 fasteners (im not counting the 2 nuts on studs that held the water pump in place as they are lower and at the block level not the head level.) i am using an engine hoist to lift the head and its not giving at all so far, have not tried to put an excessive load on it yet as i want to make sure i am not missing something, i have seen others post the head can be quite stuck on there. part 43 is the front head / water pump body gasket and i think i have removed 4 bolts that were going into that. Online images show 6 holes in that gasket but i don't see 2 more fasteners. i don't want to remove the entire front part number 1 unless its required. thoughts ? i am going to spray some pb on the dowels and do a little hammer smacking around the bottom of the head using a sledge and wood, im not going to pull hard using the lift until i see some replies here
i did find one more bolt, i need to check and see if it really needed to come out, was inside the pump housing, head still would not release, sprayed pb in the two bolt holes where the bushings are (bolts 14 and 17 in the tightening sequence diagram), applied lift force, tapped all 4 corners with a hammer, and in a few minutes it jumped up 2 inches. cyl 1 2 and 4 piston tops are black and dry, cyl 3 has an ounce of coolant on to of the piston, and the sidewalls of the cylinder are bright and shiny, on cyls 1 2 and 4 they are black.
The hidden bolt i referred to earlier does need to come out, reach in the water pump hole and you will feel an 11/16 head bolt, it goes into the bottom of the front of the head. if you don't pull it and lift the rear of the head you will probably destroy the water pump housing.
Can you see damage to the head gasket? Have you found the point of coolant intrusion? If not, please roll #3 to bottom dead center. Look at liner walls very carefully, especially the top inch or so. Looking for grey/white clouds in the liner. Actually, hoping not to see, it would indicate cavitation.
I'm not really seeing anything obvious on the head gasket or surface of block or head. I had changed the oil previously and it has run maybe 15 minutes since then, there is about a half quart of water in the oil. I will move 3 down tomorrow and look, right now 3 is down about 2 inches maybe, all the other cylinders are black on the top inch, 3 is black but has an area on the tractor left and right sides where it is clean. if i find my lost phone i will post pics, my phone tracer says it is within 100 feet of the tractor lol. What does cavitation indicate ?
ok so i read this... HeavyEquipmentForums and im thinking, maybe i should get an in frame rebuild kit and just fix this thing ? it was run with no thermostat, probably low on coolant too, has coolant in the crankcase, i'm pretty handy, but i dont have a machine shop, is the in frame rebuild doable ? replacing liners etc. im thinking that if i just replace the head gasket, and that works, there is the risk that the crank or rod bearings have been damaged and ill be splitting a tractor later to replace or grind a crank unless i just replace the crank rod bearings now.
fyi, getting injectors out, i placed the head on the bench, after i first inserted bolts in the BOTTOM of the head, so the bolt heads would keep the bottom of the head in the air to protect the injector tips. i sprayed a little pb around the injectors, and placed a large round jawed vice grip on the base of the injector, you have to start on cylinder 4, the rear most i then try to rotate the injector ever so slightly without forcing it, let the pb work, spray it again, wait... i am going for any slight movement left and right, once established that it will move a tad, i spray it and try to add a little more force and eventually, may be 20 30 50 attempts, it gains movement, eventually i get almost 45 to 90 degrees (well maybe not 90) once i have good movement even if its tight movement, i place a large screwdriver under the VICE GRIPS NOT THE INJECTOR and pry ever so slightly while rotating, this got all of my injectors out.
I'm not trying to answer for funwithfuel but cavitation doesn't indicate - he was trying to get you to look for evidence of cavitation erosion. Google it or check this out. http://www.enginebuildermag.com/2015/03/cavitation-erosion-in-diesel-cylinders/ An in frame rebuild is do-able but it would be nice to determine the source of coolant intrusion. You can have the head checked for cracks and new liners and gaskets will rule them out so as long as the block is good you should be ok. Now you know why it had no thermostat.
Cavitation, in extreme cases, such as what he may be experiencing will show on the interior walls of liners as cloudy discoloration of the iron. Those same grey/white clouds usually harbor pin holes that will weep coolant when heated. I agree w/ Grady, cavitation itself is usually undetectable on iterior walls, however, in extreme cases where coolant was not maintained and pressure was not sustained, excessive turbulence and boiling will occur in between liners. Metal explodes off exterior walls, blah blah blah.... Coolant intrusion.
working on getting all the head studs in the block out, got more than half, a few are stubborn they are soaking, going after the oil pan next. Looks like I have to remove the A frame for the steering cylinders to get the pan off, the tie rod is already off as i was replacing it cause they welded the tie rod ends on lol, lucked out and found probably the last new tie rod bar in the world that is actually in stock thanks for the link reading it now i don't plan to order anything until i get stuff out measured and look for part numbers or sizes, normal 010 etc... as well as any catastrophic damage to block and to measure the liners to see which ones i have. head will either be sent out or i will buy a rebuilt one what about the oil pump, should i plan on addressing it ?
Absolutely. If nothing else, disassemble and inspect. With all that sludge, you may have experienced a little oil starvation here and there.
Inframe that.....immediately.
If you want to make your life easier, get a fire breathing wrench. You would have had that thing apart in no time. Old machines need more persuasion. I think drilling the hole under the screen lets you monitor it over time as well as providing another drain for sediment - even if you do take it apart this time, it may save you from having to do it again.
Yes, it may make sense for me to pull the top off the trans and remove the suction screen THEN drill the case adding the new screen maintenance port while the screen is not in the way of the drill bit.
Got all the pistons out, none of the rod bearings appeared to have worn to the point of messing the crank up. Tried to jack liner 3 out no luck, ordered a home grown liner puller off ebay so need to wait for that to arrive now. I used a hand pump and got all the coolant out of the block, then filled it with pb nut blaster Hopefully that will eat at some of the corrosion holding the liners in and prevent any damage to the block when i pull them out. Studying the main crank bearings to see how i will replace all of them. Looks like a challenge. I know I should plastigauge the crank, I plan to order standard bearings, one wouldn't order oversize due to wear only due to machining is that correct ?
You can drop one or two mains to check the bearings to see if they're undersized. Other than that, you want to roll them in one at a time . There used to be a vendor that made a little nylon doo-dad that fit in the oil passage and would help you roll the upper shell out without damaging the block or crank.
roll out roll in
So the inframe kit, pistons rings sleeves bearings, is 600 bucks, but the 12 head bolts are 900 dollars !!!!! lol also add 520 for 8 connecting rod nuts and bolts
Daaaam!!! I think I'd get a 2nd or 3rd opinion on that one?? Call Dale at Tractor Stuff.. 1800-428-8183.. Case "WIZARD"..
Is this optional or did the old ones get buggered up?
I don't know what HIS situation is but alot of manuf. are TELLING YOU TO REPLACE the studs & bolts. They're a 1 time use. The "new way" of tightening is "bolt stretch".. & its given in DEGREES.. Remember when the torque on a head was 55 then 90 ftlbs & once more after it was up to operating temp?? NOT no mo'.. NOW its 65 ftlbs + 30* + 90*.. & you have to have a special "gizmo" on the end of your t. wrench to show you how many degrees u went.. {#'s are for reff. only} Any engine that uses those specs are measuring BOLT STRETCH.. which in itself is self explaintory, so you "gotta" replace the bolts & studs.. I doubt seriously that an "old" 540-580 uses bolt stretch as a spec.. but that's only speculation on my part.
Mine are ok, I will NOT be trying to remove the 4 stuck studs now. On all other heads I have done we always replace the bolts. These are 47 years old and are not getting replaced at 900 bucks lol. Maybe I should put the 15 i did get out in my gunsafe since they appear to be tracking silver prices
OK, so i am moving onto the head, waiting for my liner puller, I removed my first valve spring and collet, when i try to remove the valve it appears to me to b e restricted by a small black collar? To confuse things further when i look at a parts diagram it is listed as number 27 and is used on both exhaust and intake valves, but it is called INT. VALVE https://www.colemanequip.com/parts/...ECHANISM-AND-CAMSHAFT-188-DIESEL-ENGINE-0YJf/ I dont know if this has to be removed from the valve stem to remove the valve from the head I dont know how to remove it if it needs to be I was thinking of ordering this, but dont see that part ? http://www.yesterdaystractors.com/Case-188-ENGINE_Valve-Overhaul-Kit-G188D-Diesel_VOKC188.html here are pics of the head and the black ring on the valve below the collets i removed.
Is the part in question metal, vinyl or plastic. It looks as though it is a remnant of the valves umbrella seal. Yes it needs to be removed prior to removing from head
i tapped the valves out and each of these split and fell off, like neoprene or something
Those valve seals might be a dealer item. Yeah, Pumpguy, I don't think they used the bolt stretch method back then. That was BC. [Before China] We always reused head bolts and rod and main bolts if they weren't damaged - but you're right - not anymore - but a set of the disposable head bolts for the 350 in my pickup was only 25 - 30 bucks.
Looks like a valve stem seal … http://www.felpro.com/technical/tecblogs/valve-stem-seals.html
yep that might be what they are were
The valve stem seals should come in the gasket kit, the stems in that valve kit don't look to be machined for seals. Be wary of cheap valves, not an item to save money, been there payed for it.. As far as head bolts/ rod bolts on an engine of this age. If they're in great shape reuse em, they're most likely made better than the ones made today!
the seals are fp diesel st-2001 https://www.fmmotorparts.it/content.../brands/catalogues/fp-diesel-case-engines.pdf there are part number st-2001 seals out thee, dont know if they are the same, also dont know if they are omitted in the valve rebuild kit, meed to find that out first before i go searching https://www.jegs.com/i/Sealed-Power...k-Ei9QhxCxKC-QUoep5JnMOUSMzjYcEBoC6yAQAvD_BwE
In the pdf file i linked for fp diesel, it says the valves have to be machined for the seals.
all the in frame rebuild kits if have found are RELIANCE ans run 550 to 625 using the fp diesel pdf i found an overhaul kit, more parts than i need, its 930 dollars versus 655 for a reliance complete overhaul kit https://www.mddistributorsstore.com/619/fp-diesel-fp-ifk-188l.htm no idea if one is better than the other, reliance cost almost 300 less
Valves have been pulled since this video was made, also dremelled around a nit cleaning the seats and inside with a brush
I'd get the Reliance kit & order the v.stem seals separately. You can prob. get them anywhere?? & IF they come on the kit, send the separate ones back.. Are your original valves "ground" FOR vstem seals? {notch}
yes the original valves from 1071 have a second groove machined in
Well there ya go.. I don't wanna go back & read 4 pages.. are you replacing the head? if so, you wont have ta worry about worn valve guides for a while,, THATS what the seals are primarily for.. Keeps the lube oil from the head, going back down the valve guides.{Blue Smoke} IF you are getting a new head & its complete.. you should find out if it HAS Vstem seals. {valves machined}
i am reworking the original head,. sourcing parts. correct parts pretty sure these seals are required, the oem valves are machined to have them, second groove https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/intake-valve-new-case-a38422-161166.html https://www.tractorpartsasap.com/exhaust-valve-new-case-a38423-161164.html
Are u just using these as reff.?? or r u buying the parts from there? Have u given Tractor Stuff a try?? Tell Dale, The Pump Guy sent ya or Tinkerer.. He'll hook you up.. & explain to him WHAT the original problem was & you DID find the parts for a rebuild & ASK HIM if he can match or BEAT the prices..
Are u SURE its a 540 & not a 580?? I see on the intake valve, they'll fit both.. but the exhaust ?? I take that back.. I just looked again.. you better have another look.
ok i figured out that the parts manual has numerous typo errors on the valve head page the correct seal is G46851 and you can pay 89 cents to 10 dollars each on the web lol diagram also show the seals installed after the top spring retainer and before the collets, which im pretty sure is impossible, i think you install valve, then seals then springs retainers etc. yeah the first post says title is wrong its a 580, couldn't change title
In the pic the seals are item 27, in the listing below the pic they are item 25
It would be in your best interest to call Dale Weiss. When you are done talking to him all your questions will be answered. He will explain the differences you are encountering with the varying prices on overhaul kits. I can tell you that things like piston ring end gaps will be perfect when they are installed using his kits. In a tractor that old I would be putting new valve guides in the head. Very cheap insurance for a long lasting valve job.
those valve seals are like the old small-block chevy seals. the spring and retainer is installed and compressed far enough to wiggle the lubricated seal down into the groove. then, with a dab of lubriplate (or similar engine assembly grease ) to hold the keepers in place, you carefully release the valve spring compressor making sure the keepers stay properly in place. make sure everything is properly in place and seated. you don't want to have a valve drop into a cylinder!
That diagram & the list is about a Fkd-up mess.. LOL..
Yes FOR SURE install new guides.. BUT ASK if they have to be "reamed".. you might hafta borrow a reamer.??
all good comments, THANKS, still researching, got my engine serial number off the tractor now i know i need the larger flange cylinders. Going to talk to a machine shop so I can get that support lined up. Will try to contact Dale. thanks
ok so the diagram is correct, they actually go in after those parts, not before as i thought. that would explain why after i removed the keys i had to place some washers under the springs to add some spring force, then use pliers to hold the top of the spring and wiggle and twist to get the springs out, because the seal was actually on top or at least partially so and was holding onto the top spring cap
yep, i went back and start color coding the inserted boxes, and they dont match up either lol, there is no 34 35 36 lol
ok so i ordered the inframe overhaul kit and the valvetrain kit from agkits, crossing my fingers we'll see what we get. $765.00 with shipping and have a return policy. https://www.agkits.com/Case-188-G188D-Diesel-Engine-Rebuild-Kit.aspx#.W4A3yMK1vmE https://www.agkits.com/Case-188-G188D-Diesel-Valve-Train-Kit.aspx#.W4A3rcK1vmE
i found the seals for under a dollar a piece, shipping's 15 lol, If the kit comes with no seals, or, valves with one groove, i will get the valves machine with a second groove and order the seals.
so while i wait on parts, i removed the fuel tank and want to attack the suction screen in the trans, do i have to remove the stuff mounted on top of the adapter plate in order to remove the plate or can that stuff circled in red stay attached to the plate.
So you bought a kit, spent 765.00 not knowing whats in it?? without picking up the phone & calling Dale?? Brilliant.. Wheres that unsubscribe button??
how rude they have a return policy i have bought tens of thousands of dollars in parts "without knowing whats in the box", very rarely if ever has it been an issue if it works and rebuilds the engine 90% minus cam and crank seals, for under 800, i agree, brilliant also, others here will know they dont have to call dale, they can just order these kits, or not if they dont work out
glad i pulled this, the screen has major damage from pulsation caused by blockage from that permatex red sealant, cleaning via the drill hole option most likely would not have spotted it, and could not have repaired it. more on that damage in videos 6 and 7 coming up, slow upload speed here. you can see the damage to the screen, pulsed in and out weakened and broke the screen and sucked the screen into the tube
i'm going no net, that screen is being removed completely, permanently From what i have read from others, and from what i have seen on this 47 year old machine, the contaminants are manufacturer caused. over use of red sealant and degraded gaskets, that may or may not have been chewed up by the pump and filtered out by the filter in the first place. Removing the restrictive screen can only help the pump pressure and flow. If t he 580b doesn't like it, ill tell it to just SUCK IT UP https://www.hydraulicspneumatics.com/blog/truth-about-hydraulic-suction-strainers https://www.fluidpowerworld.com/5823-2/
Those guys are talking about hydraulic systems, this is a transmission. I wouldn't remove the screen from a transmission. That's not a piston pump, and that's not a 140 mesh screen, that's a course strainer.
I agree with Delmer, the screen needs to be there. that screen keeps debris out of the pump. if that pump picks up something hard and it jams, it will likely shear the pump shaft or worse, gear teeth, and if you are unlucky it could break a gear tooth off the drive gear which would necessitate splitting the whole thing apart to remove the mainshaft just to change the gear.
That's clutch material. I don't think it will harm the pump. It will harm the valves and seals inside the transmission, that's why I would repair the screen. It won't run better without the screen. I wonder if anybody who knows that transmission would recommend removing the screen?
https://www.amazon.com/Flow-Ezy-Fil...srs=8461714011&ie=UTF8&qid=1535348628&sr=8-29
lowes no, advance auto no, napa no, tractor supply no, walmart yes, 3 dollars tomorrow i'll form it up and try welding it on. my car found his great grandfather at walmart
Prior to pulling the liners, I sucked all the coolant out of the block with a hose (the block drain port is frozen tight). I then sprayed 4 cans of pb nut buster in there to help melt the corrosion between the block and liners. I placed two hoses down into the pb and blew it until it was bubbling out the top of the block, every few hours i did this to splash around the underneath of the top of the liners and block head surface. The pb was in there several days prior to pulling. I did this to help prevent cracks between cylinders in the cast block. I have seen photos of others with small cracks that they then try to epoxy etc.. these may have been caused by trying to pull dry corroded frozen liners. So far I don't see any cracks at all, the block was degreased and pressure washed at 4500 psi this morning and so far its looking good. All the scaled up corrosion from the coolant area blew away revealing a nice block.
Received a partial fill on the engine rebuild parts, the valves arrived and do indeed have two grooves, as they should. Will it come with valve stem seals ? We will see.
sometime today this video may upload
What are you doing to protect the crank journals rusting from the pressure washing ? "Looks" like rust is already going on.
no rust thats dirt, they are coated with sprayed on oil go to 5:00 minutes in that "block cleaning" video
i don't see any way to roll in the rear main crank bearing without splitting the tractor, i am not splitting this thing. so if that bearing cant be replaced, should none of the main crank bearings be replaced ? I dont know that its a good idea to replace only 4 of the 5 main crank bearings. the rear cant be removed due to an obstruction that requires the splitting of the bell housing from the engine. the main bolts cant clear.
I think I'd do the ones you can get to since you have them and you're there. You weren't going to drop the crank to have it checked anyway. I know you probably don't want to hear it but this is one of those situations that probably could have been foreseen by someone with a lifetime of experience with these machines named Dale. I like your willingness to go where you haven't been before but it's risky - and besides, Dale is a good guy.
Nice strainer. Looks like an old microphone.
How would going to dale have altered this ? makes no sense the situation was foreseen by me when i dropped the pan prior to ordering parts. they dont sell an inframe kits that doesn't include main bearings or i would have brought it up sooner so i could decide on an in frame kit with or without mains
Can you feel any lines in the rod journals with your fingernail? ? :Look scored in the pictures
You could loosen the bolts in the rear main enough to plastigauge the bearings it looks like. Slight chance the cap might come off if the threads arent too long. Sounds like Dale would know.
Looked at the video again. Might be able to plastiguage it. Bolts arent coming out. Abosuolutely do the 4 bearngs and plastiguage it .Well worth extra 20 minutes to use plastigauge. Mains help oil pressure. Specially on a 47 year old machine. Unless its debri, the rod journals look scored. Can't hear a slightly loose rod bearing on a diesel till it starts knocking bad.
What do the holes above the bearing bolts do ? Could the holes be enlarged enough for the bolts to pass through ? Will the bearing cap pass between the flange and crank if the bolts are out? Or cut the flange off ? Seems the flange is only for the oil pan to seal against.
rod journals aren't scored, they are pretty good. feel nice and smooth, they looked their best as the caps were removed. the piece in question is pretty hefty metal and is used to seal the oil pan from the transmission fluid, can't alter it. bolts holding it in place would back out towards rear of tractor into flywheel. i doubt you can get a wrench on the main bolts, and they probably would only go two threads out if you could. the main cap wont come out if that metal is in place. big duh if they had tapped the holes for that metal in the opposite direction it could be removed for an inframe. if one REALLY wanted to, you could probably try that, drill them at the base of the case dimple for the bolts while inframe, insert a tap and then a bolt, forced them out, and rebolt from engine side (except the bolts will back into the flywheel and not come out). im waiting for the one guy that actually has ever done an inframe on one of these to jump in and confirm or correct me on this 5th bearing but it appears i may be the only one here lol i have all the cylinders assembled ready to install, so ill do that next. once they are connected up to the crank ill bolt a piece of wood across the top of the head to hold them in so they dont rise, then ill do the 4 mains and close it up underneath. TIP ON CONNECTING RODS - my rods have a part number on one side of the rod and some other number on the other, the PART NUMBER GOES TO THE REAR OF THE ENGINE. When connecting the rods to the pistons, the piston head has an arrow pointing to the fan, the part number on the rod goes the other way. From there you really cant screw up, the caps go on the rod with the bearing retention slots AWAY from each other not above and below each other. and of course make sure rod 1 goes back in cylinder 1 and so on
i have all the cylinders assembled ready to install, so ill do that next. once they are connected up to the crank ill bolt a piece of wood across the top of the head to hold them in so they dont rise, then ill do the 4 mains and close it up underneath. I dont know how to QUOTE but are you saying connect all the rods to the crank before replacing the mains? Mains should be done first. I think Id plastiguage the original main bearing next to the one that cant be replaced and if within specs, most likely the one not being replaced is fine also.
I was going to ask if the two outer main bearings were different. Parts video says yes. The two outer ones adjust crank end play so one installed is better than none. Are you going to check crank end play?
Last thought for the morning. I know you dont want to split the trans, but you might be able to back all the bolts out about a half inch and split it enough to remove the oil pan bracket in the way. You could bend a cheap box end wrench to make removing the two bracket bolts easier. Just a thought.
its a good out of the box thought, i had it also as i laid staring up at it, i dont think it will work. i dont think you can get a tool on those bolts holding the bracket in
yes the two end bearings are different they have a flange on one side
The flange is what controls crank end play. Some cranks use shim washers also.
It makes sense if you want it to. I just meant that Dale would have known right off if you told him you were thinking about doing an inflame rebuild on a B. He would have told you about the back main and either that you can't do it or how you could do it. You seem open to help from anyone and everyone except him - and maybe me, now. I don't get any rewards points for referrals to Dale. He's just the best source of the kind of info you're looking for and need. I think you've done really well so far and I hope it all works out.
I agree. If two Senior Members gave me the same advice, I would call and see what Dale had to say and learn from his many years of experience. It doesnt seem like he has ever rebuilt a motor. You don't connect all the rods and then try to install main bearings. If he doesnt use plastigage he could be putting standard size bearings on a previously ground crankshaft. No offense tracing. Wisdom says listen to ALL advice and learn from it.
All I can say is if I was starting a job on a motor I had never worked on and someone suggested I touch base with someone with a positive recommendation from multiple people I would at least take the time to talk with them. But then what do I know I only worked in this field of diesel powered equipment for 45 years! I've only rebuilt at the most half a dozen small Case diesels in the 45 years, the main reason for that small of number is they seem to be a tough little engine and one has to abuse the heck out of them to kill them!
If dale wanted to be part of conversations like these then i would think he would be here, instead of being at the mercy of random referrals. If the answer is to call dale then why have the forum.
So people that routinely roll in new main bearings remove all the rods first ?
Well since you have rebuilt half a dozen i really see no need to be calling dale as you are here
That's the rear main seal carrier, most people pull the motor to replace main bearings . But this is your train wreck carry on. Bob
If the answer is to call dale then why have the forum. so you can brag to him how smart you are! you seem to spend more time on computer than the work, posting how smart you are and doing videos
Wow this thread turned into quite the pissing match!?!
yes, everyone coming here for years to come can definitely see the value of using this site
Then lets launch a class action suit against all the companies selling in frame rebuild kits that include main bearings, you can be the expert witness im used to this, same thing happened 20k miles ago when i created the first honda insight to use toyota prius cells instead of the nimh flashlight batteries honda used in the hybrids. all i got was tons of grief as i posted lots of info on how to mod the battery packs to accept the rectangular cells and then i created tempanerd to augment replace the cooling system provided by honda. got the same keyboard warrior experts telling me the thousands of things i was doing wrong and why it would never work, 20k miles ago
would be hard to spend most of my time on the computer as it is 5 miles from the tractor where i spent most of my day
thas ok im used to one way pissing matches where i get pissed on. doesnt bother me, for each pisser there are a lot of lurkers that are interested in the topic. 1731 views and like 1 person has decided to try to derail the thread with their little tantrum, basically same thing that happened when i did the battery project.
The forum is a tool just like any other tool. You can use it when you need it but you need other tools also. Without the forum you would never have heard of Dale. Dale sells parts but unlike most parts places, he knows all about them and doesn't mind taking the time to tell you the things to look for or look out for - etc. He doesn't have time for this kind of stuff though - he's a professional and an expert on these old case machines and you can see there aren't many who know them inside and out like he does. If you keep yours long enough, you'll get to know a lot about it because it's old and will probably require a lot of maintenance. It sometimes seems like you work on them as much as you work with them. You are obviously a smart guy and have some good ideas but wanting to leave off that pickup tube screen wasn't one of them. I'm glad to see you reconsidered that one - it came out nice. No one cares that you didn't call Dale - it just might have been easier on all of us. Let's see and hear that thing purr.
Get me phils number
Thanks for making my point, hes a retailer, if he wanted the sale he should have been here. A retailer has lots of tools to make a sale and none could be more valuable than a forum targeting his exact customers.
I'm quite sure he doesn't give a damn about selling you anything. You think you're doing him a favor? Bull$hit like this is why Phil is all done here. Social skills are another under-valued tool.
We're all in awe of your prius/insight, but like Kshansen said, this is an old case diesel engine, you don't have to be reinventing the wheel on this one. You're not the first no it all to come along, I specifically remember a rocket scientist/nobel prize winning/mother theresa's role model who created a thread about a relatively old and simple hydraulic system, wouldn't take advice, made unbelievable claims, spent many thousands needlessly and thought he was god's gift to this forum for finally stumbling through an only moderately difficult problem. To put it in perspective, he was talking about his 85 Civic clutch replacement as if he was dropping a prius drive train into it. So this could get a WHOLE LOT WORSE. edit: and as far as train wreck threads, you're no where near that point, yet. There's one king of train wreck threads and don't even think of competing with that one.
Wow! Delmer , you have a good memory (the Prius thread). I said in a PM to another old timer that I was going to ignore this thread, but it now has entertainment value for me. 1800 plus views ! The number will escalate quickly now. I only viewed one video and that was to see what was in the AgKits package tracing bought.
Not sure if having my name mentioned as if I actually knew what I was talking about is a good thing!
back to the main bearing issue, the way I see it you have 3 choices. #1 (best)- split the engine off the rest, remove the flywheel and rear crank seal retainer, change the main bearing and rear crank seal and reassemble (when using plastigage on an inframe to check main bearing clearance, you have to support the weight of the crankshaft on the closest throw or counterweight with a hydraulic jack to avoid a false reading due to the weight of the crank resting on the lower bearings). #2-if the old bearings were not too badly worn, change all that you can and wait until you have to split it someday for a transmission issue and then remember to change the rear main bearing and crank seal at that time. check the date code ( if there is one ) on the old bearing shells. if they are original, they should be dated no newer than the age of the machine - just for curiosity. #3- if the original bearing shells are good and the oil pressure was good, then reuse them and wait to install the new ones when you split the engine off the transmission case someday. but, in any case, use the new rod bearings. you can measure the thickness of the bearing shells with a micrometer to compare the old to the new-carefully without scratching them. the measurement will be slightly off because of the curvature of the shell and the flats of the micrometer but you are just checking for the difference between old and new. hope this helps
56wrench, I would lean in the direction of just reusing the original bearings if they check out good with a proper plasti-guage test, key word is "proper". I would hesitate at using some new and some old in the same engine on a crank. One engine I worked on, my own Farmall BN, yes it's a gaser not a diesel but anyhow, had crank ground by a very good local machine shop and when I installed it with new bearings seemed fine till I properly torqued the main caps. Then that nice free turning crank got a bit tight, not locked up but noticeable drag. Seems after going through heat and cool cycles for about 30+ years the block casting had moved from the original shape just enough to be a pain. Solution was to have the caps shaved a bit and the main bearing bores line bored to true things up. Now about 40 years latter that engine is still running like it did back when I rebuilt it way back then. Guess doing a job the right way the first time does pay you back with a long lasting engine!
I think if you review all 8 pages, this forum has proven to be of very little help,,, at all. Pretty sure the video and pics i have provided are going to be THE SOURCE going forward for any looking at this type of repair. I think many looking at this thread will conclude that there are a few here hawking wares of one company and when you dont go that way they pile on.
kitten i found in my yard, i named him Dale so i can ask him daily what i should do next... this is a pic of him advising me on the crank end play... oil strainer, book says blow it out with air, umm no, remove the lid and clean it
you don't have to be reinventing the wheel on this one. You're not the first no (KNOW sic) it all to come along, umm you need to go back and reread the entire thread my friend... i was here asking for input and awaiting guidance and the minute i deviated from Dales paid spokesman the worm turned
bearing 3, this is probably where the sewing needle piece of metal on the strainer came from
checking new crank bearings, all were well within oil gap specs
Tracing … That's not my experience. Since I was helped with my TLB... I do see many instances of people coming to the site seeking advice, yet ignoring genuine help. Perhaps, they were not really looking for help, but a platform for self aggrandizement.
perhaps they were... all i know, reread this entire thread, see what happens when you fail to buy a kit from dale
thanks i didnt get one good suggestion on this issue so i replaced 4 of 5 the crank felt better and turned free er. Bearing 3 was having issues so probably good i did it.
again thanks.. i decided this morning to go ahead and replace 4 of 5, i figured one day ill have to split it to fix the clutch pack which is fine now, some play in the pinion, and replace the pinion and ring. at that point ill pull the crank completely and redo a lot of what i have done.
yeah, just wait till you have an injection pump problem, we're all paid shills for ThePumpGuy. By the way, my check is in the mail, right Pumpguy? Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you, right?
Me too … I'm waiting TPGSC
I have to say something.. You came here looking for guidance.. Afew people sent you in Dales direction.. BECAUSE he could have answered all your questions.. NOTHING MORE.. Then you REFUSED to call him, you came back & said, "I'm waiting for someone who's done this to chime in".. ***?? seems "a little" stupid to me..?? He doesn't follow this forum, THATS WHY he didn't "chime in".. & that's why I tell people that I send to him> Tell'm the pump guy sent ya.. THEN he knows "where your from" & can come back here & read some of the info that others have written, so he can make an informed diagnosis.. & chat w/ you.. IF I didn't know something, especially on something major as an inframe.. & somebody told me about a "website" that could answer ALL my silly/stupid questions.. I'd dam sure click on the link.. & THATS ALL we/I did.. BTW> LOVED... the Dale/cat joke.!!! Lol I hope this works out for ya.. Good luck.. TPG
Tracing ; Seems one or more of your comments were directed at me n Dale. I don't give two hoots in hell where you buy your parts. I have steered more than one member to Dale because of his knowledge and reasonable prices. You ignored that advice, fine with me, your loss. I'm still waiting for my check from Dale to. I have no ill feelings towards you tracing, but you need to follow your own advice and reread the thread and you will see what I have seen. That is-> a man who is somewhat knowledgeable about what he is doing but making stupid comments and decisions. Really, to even think about leaving a screen off of a pickup tube. Good grief !!
lol u people, by the way, just exactly where are all my questions that i have posted that i was directed by people here to contact dale on ?
You came here looking for guidance.. Afew people sent you in Dales direction.. BECAUSE he could have answered all your questions.. NOTHING MORE.. Then you REFUSED to call him, you came back & said, "I'm waiting for someone who's done this to chime in".. ***?? seems "a little" stupid to me..?? well it seems to stupid to you, because you fail to see the VALUE in people POSTING HERE instead of constantly being told to CALL DALE CALL DALE if one person here LOOKS TO BE ME posts on actually PERFORMING THIS TASK then succeeding visitors DONT HAVE TO CALL DALE. honestly, your position is ludicrous just take thiss entire board down and place an ad on front SAYING CALL DALE cause we have no content or support or knowledge base here, and even those that claim to HAVE DONE THIS DOZENS OF TIMES have no input lol
by the way going swimmingly the agkit inframe kit from reliance fits perfectly, have cylinders 1 and 4 installed 2 and 4 tomorrow. oil gap on rods was 22 well within spec, ring gap and other specs also are perfect for new parts fitting into each other. the distance of the liner above the block is just fine as well, used the puller i bought and made a press and performed the procedure in the book to check all 4 sides of each liner. kit is well worth the LOW LOW PRICE, i paid 600 but could have gone 550, i went 600 cause agkit had a return policy, 600 was the short block, 130 was the head kit which appears to have all the right parts and the stem seals. or just call dale
what makes you think i REFUSED to call dale ? i checked what he and others had, i boiled it down to two kits, one from reliance that was 40% or more lower in cost and available at multiple sites / vendors. i didnt REFUSE to call dale, i CHOSE not to call dale, after reviewing the marketplace and making a decision. pretty sure thats my right lol
one has to start to wonder why people are so upset that i went with a reasonably priced solution using my own good judgement (and am reviewing it here as it is installed ), instead of allowing dale to intervene with his wares ??? dale dale dale, is all i am seeing from you all lol (maybe a bunch of you are mad cause you paid way too much ??)
That is-> a man who is somewhat knowledgeable about what he is doing but making stupid comments and decisions. Really, to even think about leaving a screen off of a pickup tube. Good grief !! THATS RIGHT POSTERS, THROW AN IDEA OUT THERE AND THESE PEOPLE HAVE NO PROBLEM CALLING YOU NAMES AND STATING YOU ARE STUPID SEEMS THIS ENTIRE BOARD IS POPULATED WITH SOME REAL CHILDREN
MY goodness !!! You quote my post and then accuse me of referring to you as stupid. Quite the contrary I said you were somewhat knowledgeable about what you were doing. You are so angry you cannot see the folly in even considering leaving the screen off that pick-up tube. Now that you bring children into your grossly misguided rant take a loooong look in the first mirror you can find. Sorry, I tried to offer you some help in a small way and you distort my intent to appease your anger. I kinda figured this thread would go downhill early on when you said you have been in pi##ing matches on other boards.
How many times do you need to hear it? -Not that it will do any good because you have already decided otherwise. No one gives a flying **** that you didn't call Dale or where you buy your parts or which hand you use. No one cares except you. You don't need Dale - just us stupid morons need his help. You're an expert on your first attempt and we're still amateurs after all these years. Too bad you weren't smart enough to recognize a *** up motor before you bought it, huh? Gee, does anyone know why it blows all the coolant out of the cap on cold start? No you tube videos on that? Do future readers a favor by being less of an a-hole.
If the answer is to call dale then why have the forum. so you can brag to him how smart you are! you seem to spend more time on computer than the work, posting how smart you are and doing videos, ego, attitude, a sad case of thinking you, I'm sure you know and can figure things, but brag about is bad, you thinking all others are dumb, other people are thinkers with experience all this makes you a CLASS 1 *******
Too bad you weren't smart enough to recognize a *** up motor before you bought it, huh? lol right.. i fully expected to have engine trans and hydraulic issues when i bought this 1971 580b with extendahoe for 4500 (it started on CL at 9,000 and later dropped so pretty clear it had issues) so far it is a lot better than i expected brakes 340 loader lift repack 30 tie rods and bar 65 (they welded one of the tie rods on lol) ex manifold and gasket 169 radiator 400 water pump 66 fluids 200 engine in frame and head 780 new seat 120 filters x 2 sets = 60 and it will need front tires and throw about 350 for tools i didnt have and sealants oh and it will get new injectors too so 85 for that i originally considered a large 3 point backhoe for one of my other 3 tractors but my tractor man in PA told me it was a lot more expensive cause you have to add a frame or you will break the back of the tractor, they get a few each year that have done that. So when you compare the cost of this to that, and the fact that i need it for a few projects then sell it, i am certain to get a premium price make a profit and have the use of a free unrented ho. plus the 3 point cant compare to the capability of this ho very smart ps when i looked at this, here is what i did, told him to make it go forward and backward in all 4 gears, move the hydraulics, sold, took 2 minutes lol
You don't need Dale - just us stupid morons need his help. lol no comment
Gee, does anyone know why it blows all the coolant out of the cap on cold start? well no one here did, they wanted me to do all this testing, and i said it seems to be getting pressurized by the engine, cant i just pull the fan belt to prove that and skip a bunch of testing ? lol
Troubleshooting and testing is how you avoid being a parts changer. I know my customers appreciate it.
Tracing … You're blowing this whole thing into a pissing contest that no one but you is participating in. The testing was put a gauge on the cooling system. A worthy test in many instances. That was the only test suggestion. To remind you... "I like your logic in taking off the water pump belt . An old timer showed me that trick about 20 years ago. I completely forgot. Sorry for that. Good luck , hoping for the best " As I also hope the best for you for you. A working machine is something many here, as a kid watched in wonder. Another working machine may inspire yet another kid.
Let this thread be a lesson to those who are contemplating buying a machine. There is no substitute for "due diligence" as someone on here put it recently. If you aren't willing to put the effort in before you buy, you can count on putting it in afterwards. When you add it all up by the time you sell it, you will never come close to what you will have in it - let alone make a profit. Keep dreaming. Without the help of this forum, you would still be nervously contemplating what to do - like at the start of this thread. Now you're emboldened and sound like you knew it all to begin with. You didn't know squat and you know it. If this machine runs again, it will be because of this forum and in spite of your inclinations.
lol nervously contemplating man you all really are full of yourselves yes this forum was the godsend LOL LMFAO When you add it all up by the time you sell it, you will never come close to what you will have in it - let alone make a profit. Keep dreaming. umm when you factor in savings on rental, umm yeah, total cost of ownership, ummm yeah, you need a lesson in basic operational math LMFAO X 2 man what a bunch of losers
Troubleshooting and testing is how you avoid being a parts changer. I know my customers appreciate it. SURE, LIKE REMOVING THE FAN BELT TO SEE IF IT STILL BLOWS OUT COOLANT, THATS CALLED DIAGNOSTICS, TOOK 5 MINUTES NO SPECIAL TOOLS NEEDED
Stand back everyone and "feel free to shout out warnings as i prepare to remove the head" At what point in the thread does he go from greenhorn to expert?
are there any videos of the diagnostic procedure??
On those engines, you need to plasti-gauge the block deck with the head. This will require you to installed the head several times to get an accurate measurement. Use the plasti-gauge between each cylinder, but do it one at a time so the additional plasti-gauge doesn't effect your readings. Make sure when you install your pistons in the liners that your piston rings are timed correctly. No need to time your injector pump......it is a constant flow system and the timing is done by the clocking of the fuel injectors. Hope all goes well!
Ummmm, Sorry but I for one and several others know exactly what is causing the coolant to be blown out of the cap. But, when you went off on your tirade attacking a lot of really good people there will be no more help from me. I will agree with you on the rental cost of a T/L/B because, if you run backhoe like you do mechanical work the rental cost would exceed the price of a new machine. Do the math dummy. LOL, As you say so often at your idiotic remarks. You really need some professional help with your sick ,sick mind. Please, go away from this forum forever. PS, To the moderators watching this thread. There will be no more posting from me here. I am done with Tracing.
For some strange reason, I love to watch a trainwreck.
Me too, Tinkerer. I'm all done. I can't believe Vetch63 is giving him all those secrets about plastic-gauging the block to the head and timing the rings when he's been such a dick. - and though I usually hate the sound of metal grabbing metal, I could really enjoy it coming from a certain place in Fort Valley.
One more: "I am certain to get a premium price and make a profit." That's the best of all.
Thread closed for Moderator review. On edit: After review, this thread has been determined to be "not economically repairable".