I decided to start another thread with my current issue. History: I bought a used 1992 S60. The actuator was unhooked with no history as to why etc. I did hook up the actuator once but when the rpms were needed for pump demand the actuator sent the engine rpm to wide open throttle (wot) which was too high for what was needed. I tested the actuator with the help of voodoomojo. It appears to be working fine. http://youtu.be/S96pBBNvz0U I removed the controller from the engine compartment and took off the access cover on the back side. The schematic I have doesn't exactly match the controller as far as having two adjustment screws. Mine only has one. Also, I noticed the white wire inside the controller has a few burnt spots on it? I'm not really sure where to go from here. I am going to attempt to hook it up again with my hand on the actuator so the engine rpm won't kill the engine. Since this is my first machine, I don't know how a normal controller reacts? Does it rev up for a time limit or only for pump/drive demand?
note the two red circles drawn on the photo. are these not trim pots? They may be covered with blue sealer
After taking a closer look at the controller board again I noticed the pots you had circled have very small tiny screws not similar to the diagram. So I started to follow the adjustment procedure. I notice that every screw I turned which ever direction the manual indicated, it just kept on turning? In other words, the screw(s) didn't stop which ever way I turned them. So I really couldn't tell if I was properly adjusting the pots. See pics below. Another problem I had is that once I started the engine and the actuator wires were hooked back up, I lost the ability to shut the engine off? So I had one hand on the actuator arm, the other was trying to access the controls and no luck. For some lucky reason it did shut off after letting the actuator cycle a few times (not sure if that was really the reason?). After a few tries and not being able to shut the engine off, I unhooked the actuator and started the engine back up and I was back to being able to shut the engine off via key switch and e-stop. I haven't nicknamed this machine yet, but today I'm going to call it "Christine". lol Any suggestions? Is this controller a good candidate to have tested?
Second image didn't load. Here's another try.
I talked with Hindley Electronics (Bowling Green, OH.) today. I did learn one thing that the screws on the pots are infinite meaning they turn in either direction without stopping. So this is a good thing. I'm still concerned why I can't shut this engine off while the governor/actuator is hooked up? So as of right now, I have a surging actuator that also wants to actuate the engine to wide open throttle when I let go of it with my hand and the key switch and e-stop will not shut the engine off?
they are 15 turn potentiometers. They have a slip-clutch inside so you cannot damage them. It takes a full 15 turns to go from maximum resistance to minimum resistance. Turning them 15 turns counterclockwise will ensure they are at the lowest throttle setting.
Adjustments Thanks. I definitely need to turn the high speed potentiometer down. Any thoughts as to why I can't shut off this engine while the actuator is hooked up? Also, is it critical as to when I make the adjustments? Engine running? Governor energized? or Can they be made without the engine running / Battery off etc?
It is very important to verify that there is 12 volts at terminal 5 of the Precision Governor. This is controlled by the Hi-Idle switch and a relay. This is what lets the governor know Low Idle is selected. It will then idle at the adjustment set on the trimpot to the right on the photo I edited (red circle). When 12 volts is removed from terminal 5, the governor will open the throttle wide. The setting of the trimpot to the left (Hi-Speed) controls this rpm. The governor should then maintain the rpm adjusted by that trimpot. The engine may not shut down when the throttle is wide open. (discussed in previous thread)
Ok. I will verify 12v at terminal 5 (assuming key on or running?). Also I will turn the high idle trim pot 15 turns ccw and hopefully I'll see some results (assuming this is a mechanical adjustment I can make with the engine off with results?) You reference the high idle switch and relay. I'm assuming these are in the governor circuit board itself? Also, I thought I saw an external fuse in the wiring diagram you sent me via Precision Governor paperwork? I'm trying to think ahead maybe if I don't have 12v at terminal 5? I've been paranoid to work on this thing running with the governor hooked up simply because I have no control of shutting it down. I realize the high idle will have an effect on whether or not the anti dieseling valve will function but in my case, I had my hand on the actuator forcing the engine to its lowest idle and then I hit the e-stop/key switch and it wouldn't shut off? I will have to check the diagram to see if there is something in this governor canceling out the voltage being sent to the anti dieseling valve? Also I did grab the choke lever and choked the engine off the first time this happened. Sometimes there's not enough hands working by yourself etc.
With the key in the on position, I did have 12v at terminal #5 marked as "Aux" on the controller. Also, I turned the high idle trim pot 15 times ccw and had good results (no wide open throttle while the controller is hooked up) So this is the good news so far. I am still not able to turn this machine off with the actuator hooked up? This is the bad news. I uploaded a poor quality video showing this. Basically I start the engine with the actuator hooked up and hit the e stop and then the key switch. The engine stays running. Then I pull the red wire off the actuator and hit the estop again and the engine shuts off. Here's the video: http://youtu.be/MWZpmk6cBuc Also, this may or may not be related, but I open up the panel box and found several wires that were not hooked up. I need to investigate this further to see if this is why I can't shut down? The wires not hooked up are marked: #12, 13, 15, 17, 18 and 19 respectively. They are the thin black wires. I'm guessing 18 or 20 gauge? Here's a photo of them.
It appears that the cable harnesses have been replaced at one time. The two cable entrances into the control box (second and third hole from the right) originally ran to the upper control box. They should not have reason to cause the engine to not shut down. Verify that they are still running up to the upper controls. The disconnected wires may be spares. Do all the functions work at the upper and lower controls? Will the engine shut down if the blue/black wire is removed from the actuator instead of the red/white wire?
I verified that the cable runs are still running up to the platform. Here's a pic after they come out of the engine bay: The issues I have with the platform controls may be an entirely different thread? The horn doesn't work. The basket swing to the left doesn't work. The boom raising down doesn't work. It will raise up but wont go down (I already got stuck once...lol). Also the unit will not drive unless the engine rpms are at a higher rate which I assume is normal. I'm hoping to resolve my ground controls/governor issues first. Then I will work on the platform etc. The engine will turn off with only the blue wire disconnected on the actuator. Here's another poor quality video: http://youtu.be/8a99wz2b5S8 Looking at the electrical diagram there's a lot relays if you work your way back from the anti dieseling solenoid. I thought maybe one of these might be bad in the path of the governor???
will it shut off as it should with only the wire on terminal 4 of the precision governor box removed?
Have you verified that terminal 1 on Precision Governor loses power when E stop is depressed?
The Precision Governor, the governor actuator, the fuel solenoid vacuum switch, the keyswitch and the platform e-stop circuit are all on the same circuit and all wired with red/white wires. The flashing beacon was also wired into this circuit. These wires should all go dead when the power is shut down at the lower controls. After 20 years, I would not assume that the wiring is still as it came from the factory. per Willie's suggestion, it would be interesting to note if there is power at Terminal 1 of the Precision Governor Control Box with and without the red/white wire connected to the actuator. Will the engine shut down with just the terminal 1 wire of the precision governor control box removed? at this point it seems either a wire or wires are incorrectly installed or there is a backfeed from the actuator/governor.
I just verified that the engine will shut off with the wire taken off the controller on terminal #4.
With the red wire pulled off the actuator. I tested the power at terminal one on the controller. The engine will shut off. With the red wire hooked up to the actuator (as it should be). I have power at terminal one of the controller. However, when I go to hit the estop/key off, the power still remains at terminal one but the light on my tester gets dim a little and it will not turn off. Lastly, with the wire pulled off terminal one completely, I started the engine and it would not shut down. Also the actuator went to wide open throttle. Another interesting observation is that the beacon light always seems to work on the engine compartment side but occasionally works on the fuel reservoir side? Here's a pic of the wires at the controller as they are currently hooked up. Terminal #1: two red wires Terminal #2: Light Green Terminal #3: Orange or tan? Terminal #4: Light blue Terminal #5: black or dark brown?
Follow the path of the two wires on terminal 1 of the precission governor. It is not a factory crimp and may be a potential source of the backfeed. Separate the two red wires to see if one goes dead and one stays hot when the power is turned off. If one of the red wires stays hot, trace it back to its origin.
I followed the two red wires and one goes straight to a relay that is dangling near where this controller is mounted. The other goes up towards the main harness. Here's a pic of the relay: Here's the main harness connection for the other red wire: Another shot of the relay:
Disregard that first picture. It won't let me edit it out. Here's the picture I wanted to post:
The only other wiring on this machine that looks out of place is some wiring for what I believe is an add on choke. You can see the relay mounted on the wall and some red wiring coiled up. This red coiled up wiring goes up to the add on choke.
I separated the two red wires for terminal 1 on the controller and tested for continuity. The one red wire that is from the main harness has power with the key on. It also loses power when I hit the estop. The other red wire that comes from the relay does not have any power to it at all when separated. I'm assuming they are energizing this relay with the other red wire? Also, coming off this relay is a wire that goes to terminal 5 on the controller. The green wire off this relay goes to the harness somewhere and the last wire off this relay goes to the block on the wall and is numbered either 42 or ? The number is on the actual wire. Could the other wires coming off this relay be energizing the main harness red wire when they are not supposed to? Or in other words, the relay is bad?
M1687, study your schematic. Second red wire comes from terminal 1 of Precision Governor controller and goes to terminal 30 of control relay #11, high engine relay. Brown wire connects to terminal 87 of CR1 and goes to terminal #5 of Prec Gov controller. This is what throttles engine up when working properly. The problem were are having is it's extremely difficult to troulbleshoot electrical problems like this as we're not there, we don't know how everything is wired and if it's done proper by schematic. I've been busy with home projects lately and haven't followed this thread closely so it's likely I might suggest something that has already been said, but if it were me, I'd quit messing with the governor at the moment, disconnect power from term 1 of controller, and red wire connected to actuator, make sure the throttle is held back so it doesn't go full tilt, then I would make sure red/wht wire that powers everything is working correctly. Connect a test light to wire connection to anti diesel solenoid, start/run engine, depress E stop, and see if test light goes out at anti diesel solenoid and see if engine dies. Check this from both ground and platform controls. If this is working proper, then we can move on to governor.
attached are a couple different ways to look at the circuit. There was power on the fuel shut off valve you said in the other thread. I think. I may be mistaken. Be sure to follow out the wiring as in the diagrams below. Verify the grounds are where they should be. Willie has a valid point. We can come back to the governor later if needed. Let's set it at a mid rpm and work on the other issues.
Thanks for correcting me voodo, 87A (NC) is proper connection of brown wire at CR11. BTW, nice illustrations you're making there.
Thanks, it takes a bit of time sometimes. especially these old relay-based machines. Whenever someone asks me why everything has gone to microprocessors, I ask them to trace the circuit for the ignition / fuel circuit on these older units. After about 30 minutes of confusion, it is understood. Too bad microcontrollers are so much more expensive than relays
When it comes to reading the wiring diagrams if a wire crosses over another does that mean that they are on the same circuit? Or does there have to be a darken circle indicating a connection? This has been my downfall of reading these diagrams. In reference to the CR11 relay, I'm assuming the wire location placement on the terminals is critical? In other words, could a different type of relay have different wire placement on the terminals? Also, just to make sure I need to verify which is terminal one and terminal two on the actuator? When looking at the face of the actuator, I've been putting the red wire on the right hand side. This was based off a picture of a similar machine I saw for sale via internet etc. Would I be helping the situation if I sent off the controller to have it tested? I was told it would be about $35-40. Assuming there is nothing wrong with it. I appreciate all your help you guys have been giving me so far. I'll be working on this thing again in the morning.
Well M, since we're doing Genie schematics class, and Voodoo has been doing all the teaching, it's about time I made a contribution. The first thing we need to understand is all schematics, unless otherwise stated, are drawn/shown in power off condition, nothing powered up or operated. That's where the term "normal" comes into play. For example, when you see a contact that's referred to as NC (normally closed), that means that in a no power state, machine not running, that contact connection is closed. Normal indicates machine at rest, not in use. There are various type relays used on machines, the terminals have specific purposes depending on what type of relay it is. On your schematic, you'll see reference to several relays. PR, such as PR1, are power relays, typically solenoid type relays, larger terminals for power in/out, small terminals for wires that control the relay operation. CR, such as CR11, are control relays, typically Bosch cube type or Potter Brumfield clear "ice cube" relays. Look at post #24 by Voodoo, that's a Bosch cube type relay at top of illustration. On those relays, terminals 85 and 86 are the terminals that operate the relay. Terminal 30 is the contact connection for relay contact. This contact will connect to terminal 87 or 87A depending on whether relay is powered up or not by coil inside. In normal state, no control power on 85/86, terminal 87A is NC with terminal 30, likewise, in normal state, terminal 87 is NO (normally open) with 30. When you power up the relay with 85 and 86, the coil switches the contact, now the relay is not in normal state, rather switched, and terminal 87 NO connects to 30, and terminal 87A NC breaks it's connection to terminal 30. Look at the connections to Precision Governor on your schematic. You'll see a wire coming from terminal 1 of Prec Gov controller go to CR11 (control relay 11). That wire connects to terminal 30 of CR11 relay as diagram shows that connection is not the contact connect that breaks inside, the opposite connection does. Since the drawing notes the relay is CR11 NC, that means the other wire connects to 87A of the relay, the NC connection, and goes to terminal 5 of Prec Gov controller. To view the coil that operates CR11, terminals 85 and 86, you have to go to next page of PDF diagram of your machine and find the coil there.
Here's one case on your schematic that cube relay coil is located nearby the contact connections, it's the CR5 relay that controls signal horn. Black wire comes from TB31 (Terminal/Base 31) from ground control box and goes to 85 of relay shown below on right, that's the relay coil as noted by Voodoo in legend at post #28. Wire coming from opposite side of coil, terminal 86, goes to ground. On the left side of pic is contact side of CR5 relay. Wire coming from top connects to terminal 30 of relay, the contact terminal. The opposite terminal, since it's show as an open circuit with the contact terminal means that connection is 87 of relay, the NO connection. That wire goes to signal horn. When you power up 85 and 86, it switches the relay, connect 30 with 87, and sends power to horn to sound horn.
Another feature of Genie schematics is wiring connections to terminal strips in control boxes. You'll see connections like TP1, which means a wire connected to terminal 1 of platform terminal strip, Terminal/Platform/1. Likewise, connections that start with TB, like TB31 mentioned in post above, are connections to lower (Base) control box, Terminal/Base/31. This pic shows location of TB31 for service horn in lower control box.
Thanks Willie for the lesson. I appreciate it.
No problem M. Got a question, just ask, me or Voodoo should be able to help in some way.
I verified that the wiring on CR11 is correct. The relay appears to have been replaced at one time because of the metal tab not there on the back for mounting purposes. There's a few wire connections I want to redo. One of the them is the ground connections. The other is the wires for Terminal 85 on the CR11. Is this a fusible link of some sort? See pic. So as of right now. The main red wire being fed to terminal one on the controller is functioning correctly (works on/off etc) I don't have any power from the red wire off of CR11 to Terminal one either way (not sure if I'm supposed to or not?) I'm going to redo the connections in the photo and pick up a new CR11 (I'm on the assumption that I'm getting the back feed via CR11 to terminal 1?) If this is not it, then I need to trace the main red wire and look for potential back feed sources. I still need to verify which is terminal one and two on the actuator just to make sure I'm hooking the wires correctly etc. The more I think of it, it may not matter on the actuator?
It's a diode M, check page 132 of your PDF manual, it shows the coil of CR11 "high idle relay" in bottom left corner. The wire that connects to the diode goes to PR5 NO terminal, which is starter relay. What it does is kick the throttle to high rpm when cranking engine.
I'm just trying to brainstorm if the diode were bad?
yes, and if the diode was omitted from the connection or shorted out, everytime the engine went to high idle, the starter would engage. If the diode was open, the engine would try to start in the low idle position. Not easy to start that way, especially on propane
M, I (me and voodoo) need to clarify something as we're not there. You disconnected wire from terminal 1 of precision governor controller, disconnected red/wht wire from actuator, and things worked proper. Does that mean the anti-dieseling solenoid lost power when you depressed E stop, then engine stopped running?
Good thing I don't have that problem!!! I picked up a new relay (CR11) from the local Genie dealer. Hopefully I'll have some time to get that installed tomorrow morning.
I know its confusing. So I had to look back at my previous post. I did several scenarios: The first was everything was hooked up except for the red wire on the actuator. The engine will shut off. (I did not test the anti diesel solenoid because I assumed it functioned) The second scenario was having everything hooked up as it should be. I had a continuity tester on terminal #1 of the controller. When I hit the estop or key off the light stayed on but got dim a little. The engine will not shut off. The third scenario I did was I pulled the two red wires off terminal one of the controller and left the wires hooked up to the actuator. When I started the engine the actuator sent the engine rpm to wide open throttle. The engine would not shut down. Lastly, I separated the two red wires for terminal one of the controller. The one wire that comes from the main harness works as it should. Key on I have power, key off or estop I have no power. The other red wire that comes from CR11 did not have any power with the key on or off. With all these tests, I was focused on the controller area not necessarily the anti diesel solenoid. I was under the assumption that if the engine shut off, then power was cut off to the solenoid which kills the engine etc.
I've never seen anything like this M, so I'm trying to think outside of the box. The puzzling thing is red wire that goes to terminal 1 of Precision Gov controller is same power wire that goes to terminal on actuator. You can disconnect wire from actuator, everything now works proper, engine shuts down proper. Connect wire to actuator, as it should be, and red wire remains powered up when E stop depressed, engine keeps running. Logic indicates problem is coming from Prec Gov giving a voltage feedback coming from terminal 4, passing through magnetic coil of actuator, then sending power on to red wire that powers everything. Never seen this before, but the only place I can see feedback coming from is signal from ignition circuit on terminal 3, don't know if it can do that or not, it's just the only place I can see where feedback would be generated. If all this is true, having Precision Governor repaired/replaced would likely fix your problem. Or, if ya feel like doing something out of the ordinary for the hell of it, install a diode in the wire that goes from terminal 4 to actuator. I'd be curious if that made things work proper, and would basically confirm faulty Prec Gov controller.
M did say that when he removed the wire from terminal 4, the engine would shut down as it should. The diode test should give an indication. It is a PWM signal but will still carry a bit of current. Do not use less than a 6 amp diode / 200volt PIV (the actuator has healthy coils in it).
Yep, I was aware of this Voodoo, never seen a Prec Gov have this reaction myself, just trying to think of something crazy that M could try and make some progress.
I installed the new contact relay(CR11) today and reworked the ground wires for all the relays in the vicinity etc. I have an initial positive result as I hooked everything back up and tied the two red terminal one controller wires together but did not install them on the controller (everything else was hooked up). I turned the key in the on position and tested the continuity on the red wires and had good results. I didn't have time to fire the engine up though and I'm thinking I may send off the controller to have it tested before I do so etc. One thing I did find and I wanted to hear your feedback on is that the red wire that comes from the main harness and goes to terminal one on the controller I found that it was rubbing on the post of the power relay in the photo below. Not sure if this would be the culprit of my problem or not as I tested this wire by itself not hooked to the controller.
Anything is possible M, but if that wire were rubbing causing the problem, seems it would always be a problem, not just when wire is connected to actuator, it would keep main power on circuit all the time keeping engine running. Sending the controller off and having it tested/repaired very well may fix your problem, it's totally up to you to go ahead and do that.
Actuator Well after three weeks of waiting I finally received a response from Hindley Electronics. They told me one of my trim pots is bad on the controller and also in the upper right hand corner near the outputs there was some bad transistors (resistors?) which I was told is more than likely caused by the actuator? So my question is should I send the actuator in? This was a speculated response from the tech via the salesmen talking to me on the phone. I'm currently having him talk to the tech also. Can this might have been caused by the actuator drawing too much voltage? Maybe me hooking it up and unhooking it while it was energized? Any thoughts? The reman controller will be about $221. A new actuator is about $600. The salesmen wasnt sure if they rebuild the actuators still? I guess myfear is that I hook up the rebuilt controller only to have the actuator fry the controller all over again?
Just be sure to always have 12 volts at terminal 1 whenever there is 12 volts at the actuator. Also be sure to never install terminals 1 and 2 with reverse polarity. The actuator appears to be ok. Verify that it moves freely without binding.
I heard back from Hindley and they said they would warranty the controller so I should get it back tomorrow evening. Hopefully Thursday morning I can hook it up etc. Voodoo can you elaborate on terminal 1 and 2 with reverse polarity? Are you referring to the controller or actuator?
Controller
Seems like I just can't put this issue to bed. I hooked up the new/rebuilt controller and started to follow the adjustment procedures. I didn't get past line 2 or 3 which is verify I have 12v at the battery and controller etc. I have 12v at my batteries and only 10v at terminals 1 & 2 of the controller. I know I remounted my ground screw terminal in the area but what are some of the other causes for only having 10v at the controller? I did install a new positive battery cable from the battery to the relay on the compartment wall. Any thoughts before I check myself into the local mental hospital?
Hey Voodoo/Willie. You guys out there? Need some advice if you have it?
Follow your wiring diagram M, it's the only way you can sort through these type problems. Use a volt meter to check every connection of power wire as it leaves battery. Check at 15 amp breaker, check at terminals of lower E stop, check at terminals of upper/lower select switch, I've seen Telemechanique switch contact blocks cause all sorts of problems from bad contacts inside. You simply follow the current path laid out by the wiring diagram all the way to the governor controller. Keep in mind, it's normal to have a bit of voltage drop as current travels through a good bit of wiring and connections, but you should search for a good bit of voltage drop through a single component, such as a contact block or from connection to a terminal strip to where wire connects to other side of terminal switch.
Well I thought I made some progress only to run into another brick wall this morning. I had the local Genie Dealer out last week to have a new set of eyes on my wiring problem. He/we discovered a short in the wiring leading up to one of the beacon lights. So I repaired the wiring and sent the Controller back for testing. They told me the "outputs" were once again bad and they highly suggested that the actuator was causing this and/or hooking up the controller with the battery/key on etc. I have always hooked the controller up with everything turned off etc. I tested the resistance on the actuator (3.2 ohms) and did a manual test on it with a battery. Everything seems to check out (No binding etc). Currently I still have 10.5 volts at Terminal One of the controller and I keep ruining the new controllers everytime I hook it up etc. So being back at square one with SOME progress, I'm still left scratching my head and checking wiring. The Genie Tech looked at everything in my control panel and didn't see any issues (key switch, estop, etc). So I'm left with checking all the wiring outside of the panel and leading up to the other components in that circuit. My question is with only 10.5 volts, am I looking for a bad component or a short circuited wire or both? Will a bad component/short circuit cause my controller to ruin the outputs as I keep doing? I did replace the ignition module before all of this happened. Do I need to retest that? Also, is there anyone out there in the Ann Arbor, Mi area that can help?
I have a diode question if any one is still out there? In my picture below I have a voltage drop before and after the diode. Is this normal or not? Also can anyone take a look at the diagram and give me their feedback as to why I might have 3.2 volts on the #19 wire when the switch is in the ground control position? Besides another wire short the only thing else I can see in common is the start toggle switches. (Note: #19 wire is for the 12v to platform circuit).
M, check your diagram, follow the voltage backwards toward battery. Go backwards. Start with a volt meter at that upper/lower selector switch, check the voltage at those two bottom terminals. If it's low (that 3.2 for example, follow wire over to E Stop contact at the left in pic, check voltage there. Still low, the red wire goes backward to 15 amp circuit breaker, then it goes back to TB25, then to PR5, ultimately back to battery. Chase this wire circuit backward toward battery until you find the spot where the voltage on circuit is no longer low, back in the 12V range.
Willie, The voltage at the two bottom terminals of the selector switch are fine. My problems are with the two upper terminals. The one issue is the voltage drop off the diode as shown in my picture. This wire eventually goes to my controller which is where I have voltage less than my battery voltage. I traced the problem to this diode but I'm not sure if this is the only issue or if this is normal voltage before and after the diode etc. My second problem is with the wire that feeds 12v to platform off the selector switch. What I found is if you remove this wire from the selector switch and then energize the ground controls I have a voltage reading on this circuit of 3.23v. I'm assuming it should be 0? Initially I thought I had a bad selector switch, this is why I took the wire off etc. I know this is an unpopular topic/thread but your feedback is appreciated as I'm still working my way through these wiring issues.
Whoa, hold on, you said "I have a voltage drop before and after the diode". If that's true, problem isn't diode. You're saying you're getting 12V +/- at the bottom terminals (screw heads) of contact blocks? What voltage do you get from the top terminals of contact blocks pictured?
Willie, Yes, the wire with the diode in the picture, when energized, has a voltage drop to 11.66. So you're saying that is not normal and I have other issues? The contact blocks on the top of the selector switch, when energized individually, are at 12.20v. As I previously stated I had an issue with having a voltage reading on the platform contact when NOT selected. I narrowed that down to the wire that feeds the platform. Today I traced this wire to the platform E-stop where I pulled the two wires off as shown in the picture below. I then tested the voltage at the selector switch and my issue went away. So I'm making some progress. I ran out of time today to figure out the two wires I pulled off the upper E-Stop and where they go etc. They did have a lower voltage, when energized and not hooked up etc. (about 9v). So I think I'm getting closer to my primary issue. It's frustrating working afternoon shift as you have to stop and go to work etc
I'm trying to keep this simple M, intentionally ignoring some terminal connections to paint a clear picture, you want to do voltage test under load, switches activated, not wires disconnected, when you're looking for voltage drop. What you basically have is power going from positive battery terminal to circuit breaker (again, I'm leaving out some terminals). Test voltage (under ignition load) at battery terminal, good voltage, move to circuit breaker. If voltage good at breaker, move to power input terminal of e-stop. If voltage good, move to power output terminal of e-stop. If good, move to input of selector contacts. If good, move to output terminal of selector contact that is switched on. If voltage drops at that terminal, you have a poor conductor inside that contact block causing voltage drop.
Voltage Thanks again Willie. I have been doing all of my testing with simply the selector switch on/off etc. I haven't checked anything under load. My assumption was that I didn't want the alternator voltage to over ride anything etc. So I learned something new. I'm sure I'll have more to come but I'm still knee deep into this issue. Thanks for your help again.
I don't mean with engine running M, you would get input from alternator then, I'm saying you test circuits for voltage drop using some form of load, such as ignition turned on, not running. The reason for this is a resistive conductor (bad wire, bad connection, bad contact) can show good voltage with no load on circuit. Since it's resistive, the only time it will show a voltage drop is under load, because the conductor is resisting flowing current to the component that is demanding the load.
Willie, I'm glad you clarified that. I was out this morning and everything was good with the engine running. lol. Up until this morning all of my readings were with the key switch on/engine not running. Every once in a while I start the engine to keep the battery voltage up but then shut it down for testing etc. Hopefully I can narrow down my issue which appears to be near the upper E-stop area. I have a question regarding the indicator lights. If these go bad will they cause a drop in voltage theoretically? Can the internal connections cause the electricity not to flow through? As far as replacements, are they anything special or should I order from the local dealer just to be safe?
M, I've been going back over this thread trying to determine exactly what you're working on (problem) at present, aside from the voltage drop that you've stated. If you could give me a brief summary of what you're chasing, might help. As for voltage drop along circuits, don't know if it's you problem, but those Telemecanique contact blocks are notorious for causing voltage problems. You can switch on upper or lower one time (makes a connection inside contact block) and it connects good. Next time you activate contact, it doesn't make good connection inside. I used to carry a good supply of those contact blocks on my service truck when I used to work on those things.
Willie, My overall problem is that I have burned up two new/rebuilt controllers (the outputs). The supplier feels this may be caused by a bad actuator and/or hooking up the controller with the battery on etc. I've hooked up both with the battery off. I tested the actuator and have a good ohms resistance of 3.2. Looking over the Precision Governor manual it states that on terminal one and two I should have the same voltage as the battery voltage. This is what I do not have. There is a drop in voltage at terminal one and two with the key on/engine off. So I've been searching around that primary circuit trying to find why I have a reduced voltage etc. I first started from the controller and went backwards etc.
M, I've been working on these things for years, never burned up a Precision Governor controller from bad actuator or other quirks of wiring, this is territory I've never experienced, that's not to say what you've stated is not the case though. Just to clarify something, terminal 1 and 2 of controller, terminal 1 is battery positive voltage terminal for sure. If I am reading schematic correctly, term 2 is ground terminal. When you say "the Precision Governor manual it states that on terminal one and two I should have the same voltage as the battery voltage." Are you saying you read voltage on terminal #2?
Willie, With the key on (engine off), I have a reduced amount of voltage when the positive probe of my multimeter is touching terminal #1 and the negative probe is touching terminal #2. I've tried using the common ground with the negative probe thinking I had a bad ground etc. I still have the same scenario. Also keep in mind I did find a major short in the wiring which was leading up to one of the beacon lights which is in that circuit that feeds terminal #1. My gut feeling is that when that wiring shorted out, it took something else with it along with the controller? So when I hooked up the new controller it shorts out immediately as soon as I turn the battery on and key switch etc. I don't know alot about these controllers but the supplier told me they bench test these units with an actual engine before they ship them out. I'm hoping I can find what else is wrong in this circuit, then I will send the controller back one last time and hope for the best?
M, lets try something just to get you going. I suppose there is a possibility that a wiring short on the circuit that powers terminal 1 of Precision Governor could have trashed it, never seen that so can't say for certain, but your reluctance to fry another one from a problem on that circuit is understandable. So...let's insulate the Precision Gov from that circuit. Install a Bosch cube relay using diagram below. Connect the red/wht wire that is supposed to connect to term 1 of Prec Gov to terminal 85 of relay. Wiring this relay to Prec Gov will do three things, 1) insulate the gov controller from suspect circuit, 2) remedy any voltage drop on that circuit powering relay as these relays demand only milliamps of current, and 3) provide good voltage to terminal 1 of gov controller as you're getting power on 30 of relay from a good battery source like battery connection at starter.
Willie, I'm willing to try anything at this point. Currently I have a "bad" controller on hand so I wouldn't be able to see if this scenario would work until I get another one etc. The red/white wire you want me to hook up to 85 on this relay is where I have the reduced voltage/possible short. You're saying this won't effect the controller because the relay is insulating it? I did some more poking around the machine today. I still have something going on with the circuit that has the indicator lights for the oil/water. More so on the water temperature. I'm still unable to isolate it though. I have a question for you, when you turn the key on/engine off and the indicator lights come on for the oil/water, what component in the circuit makes them turn off once the engine is started? Is it the switch gauges? I had something new happen today when I started the engine my water temp indicator lights (both ground and platform) stayed on after the engine was running etc. More to come as I work on that tomorrow. Thanks.
I'm saying the controller won't be adversely affected by a fault on red/wht wire circuit because controller will now be getting power from another (more reliable) source. All the red/wht wire will be doing now is activating the relay, if a fault smokes it, big deal, you're out a couple of bucks as opposed to a toasted controller. And the more I think about it, you should connect term 1 of governor actuator to term 87 of relay as well because term 1 of actuator is powered by same circuit as term 1 of controller. You said you want to get this wiring thing figured out before having controller repaired again. I'm saying, go ahead and get your controller fixed, install it, and wire it up to the relay, now there's no danger a fault on red/wht wire circuit is going to smoke repaired controller and you can proceed with your troubleshooting. As for your temp light, according to the wiring diagram, that light should not come on when you turn the ignition on as the light should be controlled by switch gauge, only time that light should come on is when the contact inside the switch gauge closes the circuit from temp being high. At least that's what the diagram shows. Oil pressure light should come on when you turn on ignition, then go off once engine gets running an makes oil pressure.
Thanks again Willie. This makes sense regarding the wiring of the controller. I don't know a lot about these controllers but I'm assuming they sense a drop in voltage as to when to increase engine rpm? Possibly measuring the hertz? Will this be affected using this cube relay you think? I think you just resolved one of my problems. Looks like a have a bad water switch gauge as the indicator light comes on with the key on/engine off and now while the engine is running. I'll have to study the diagram to see how this affects the circuit for the controller etc.
The governor controller makes adjustments to engine throttle via actuator depending on inputs from ignition coil on terminal 3 of controller, this is separate circuit from power input circuit on term 1.
Hey Willie, Well, I pulled both wires off the water temp. switch gauge and didn't resolve my one issue etc. Looking at the diagram I'm trying to see where power/backfeed would exist on both upper and ground control indicator lamps at one time. It seems as if TR2 may be a possibility along with a bad diode. Or possibly TS 5 or TS13? I have to believe that there may be some damage to the controls in the platform since this thing may have sat outside for a while? I'm probably going to try one last thing before I wire it up the way you suggested and thats just throw some new parts at it which is common for an amateur like me. I was thinking a new TR2, TS5, TS13, selector switch, and both e-stops? I've had bad luck with Telemecanique contacts before also. My situation was with a Powermatic Model 66 table saw that wouldn't turn off etc. Kind of scary...