It's -30C hear and it turns over but didn't fire up. I had it plugged in but the block heater didn't work. This has happened before and then it worked after that. I have tried different electrical cords, so I don't think its that. Has anyone had any experience with these?
You may have to replace the cord from the heater there about $15
The block heater on this machine has a plug on the left side of the machine mounted just above the battery box. It is chrome and has a spring loaded door/cover that says CAT on it. Would I have to replace the cord from there to the heater? Where is the heater located?
yes, you'd replace the cord from the male end inside the cover to the block heater that's in a core plug hole in the block. Sorry, don't know where, you'll have to follow the wire. It's also possible you could get it to make a good connection again by scraping rust off the pins on the heater, cleaning out the female end of the cord at the block, or if the female end is shot cut it off and replace with crimp on electrical connectors, but only if you know what you're doing with the last one. It's also possible for the heating element itself to be failing, but that's much less likely, and it will go off completely soon if that's the case.
Use a multi meter and check for continuity in the cord. There has always been a great deal of debate, but I am a firm believer in unplugging a block heater before you start your engine. My father used to work on trucks for the power commission. One particular driver would start his unit every cold morning without unplugging. Although he could not explain it, that truck would need a new block heater once or twice a year. This failure followed the operator through 3 units over the years, and when new guys took his old units, the problem would stop. And just to make sure, cause everyone can make mistakes, is there any power in your outlet.
I never thought of that, just like shaking an incandesent light bulb really. On the other hand, I almost always start the engine then unplug the cord, and have never had a heater fail that I know of.
I'm talking starting it, and leaving it for half an hour
@Delmer I will try following the wires tomorrow to find out where the block heater is and check the connections. I got the machine running today. It didn't want to start, too cold. I left the boom up so I can take the covers off in the morning. Its supposed to be cold again tomorrow. @Billrog mentioned the replacement cord is $15, is that from CAT? I will check the continuity as well.
Canadian tire should also have these cords.
Update, the block heater doesn't seem to be working at all. so it must be the element. @kshansen Hello, do you have any info on these? This is a factory installed block heater. Thanks
I always unplug before starting ... Cuz I'm afraid, I'll forget the cord and drive off... Besides, I'm lazy and don't want to climb down and back, when I can unplug, store the cords, climb up one time and drive off. As for the op failures... I surmise the engine has air in the block. When at rest the heater is covered, but when running, slugs of air or cold coolant hit the element. Repeated extreme temp swings eventually causes the failure.
Doug before pulling the block heater check it with a meter if there's no resistance then it's toast. At the block not the end of the cord.
Not sure if Cat lists spec's on the block heater elements, I'll have to take a look later, but the ones we had on out somewhat bigger machines always tested around 9 to 10 ohms when measuring across the two pins the cable slips over. Also just to be safe I always also checked from each pin to a good ground on the engine block. There you should have infinite ohms/open no conduction at all! I would expect your's to be somewhere in that same range. Well could not find anything for you machine but found one machine where it gave some spec's that one was a 1,000 watt heater where ours were 1500 watt heaters. So then I went to a ZeroStart online catalog and looked up what the suggest for a 3054 Cat engine which is what I believe you have. They show one rated at 600watts. So next you go back to high-school science class and do some work with OHMS LAW, well actually I did cheat and find an online calculator! Punch in the 120 volts and the 1500 watt of ours and it comes up with 9.6 ohms very close to what I remembered. Next punched in the 600 watt rating for the Zero Start 3054 heater and it comes out to 24 ohms. So that is what I wold expect to see on yours. Now if by chance your's is rated at 750 watts then 19.2 ohms And if anyone has one of the 1,000 watt heaters they should show 14.4 ohms
I had an old Jeep with a lower rad hose heater and it worked really well. Not sure if you could get one for your machine or not. Probably just goes by hose size.
Check the continuity of the two pins sticking out of the part that's actually mounted in the hole in the block. There's also a ground pin there, it should be easy to tell which is the ground by the layout of the pins. If it's 400 watts (common for block heaters, the tank type are much bigger) then you'll be around 30 ohms, as long as the ohms is anywhere in that range it's fine. if it's burned out it won't have any continuity, thousands of ohms. I'd plan to replace it with another one just like it if it is burned out.
Won't say there isn't a third pin on this machine but all the bigger Cats I worked on the ground connection was via a thin metal tab on the outside of the rubber plug that had the two power contacts. It just made contact more or less in the bore of the hole the other contact pins were recessed into. Guess I worked on too many big machines cause 400 watts would not be enough to keep my coffee hot on a cold morning here in NY! Our 769C and 769D Cats had two 1500 watt heaters, one for each bank of the engine. Usually only one was needed but we did plug them in at the end of shift and let them set all night under power, 10 hours working hauling stone and 14 hours waiting for next days work on the cord! I think the only time I plugged both heater in at the same time was if we needed to start one up during winter shut down to bring it in for some repairs. Seems like they could never think far enough ahead to let us do it overnight! So it was plug two block heaters in and drag out a pair of battery chargers usually threw knee deep snow and then go out every hour or so to see if they would fire up! Then bring it and park in shop with box up and hope when the ice melted and came out of the box no one was near by! Made sure tool box was not in the way!
It was colder today so I didn't work on the block heater today. I had changed the thermostat on this machine recently, and I noticed coolant leaking around the bolts on the thermostat housing. Its not leaking too bad but will need to be addressed. I put new a new o ring and gasket in when I put it back on. The housing is plastic so I just snugged up the bolts. Don't know if they should have been torqued. One of the o ring type rubber gaskets wouldn't stay in place when I was putting it back on so put a small amount of gasoline on it to hold it on while I put it in place. Maybe I just need to snug the bolts up a little more?
I checked ohms, there's no continuity so I will need to order a new element and rubber boot. There are three wires. Looks kind of hard to get at and I'm not sure how it all comes out. A schematic would be helpful. It has a fairly heavy cord going to it. It's not you hardware store special.
First off did you check for the ohms at the heater and not just on the contacts under the chrome "Cat" spring loaded door? You need to test right at the heater where the white and black wires are connected. Those are the "HOT" wires from the plug in the chrome receptacle. The green wire is the ground not sure if it is connected to the heater or a ground point on the engine block. If you do test as above and still get no reading a couple things you need to do. First you need to drain the coolant from the engine. Second I would wait to remove the old on till you have the new one in hand. Looking at the first picture I'm not sure what that chrome threaded thing coming out of the brass fitting is. It could be a set screw to lock the heater in the correct position many block heaters have to be installed in a correct orientation to avoid hitting something inside the block. It could be that you need to hold the hex part the blue plastic the screw terminals are molded into and use a second wrench to turn the brass part the plug or set screw is in to avoid damaging it. I tried looking for information on SIS and it would help to have a full serial number as the heaters I was seeing do not look like the one you pictured.
I tested the continuity at the element it self, numerous times, and got no continuity, so I guess the element is fried. I also tested the ground and it seems to be grounded. I also switched my multi-meter to ac and plugged my electrical cord in and tested the black and white wires and got 125 amps at the heater. I am not sure how it comes apart yet. I will not take it apart until I have a new one in hand and know how it comes apart. I will have to price it out at the CAT dealer.
I should have put a mirror behind the heater so I could see how the ground wire is connected. The heater should still work even if the ground wire was bad if the element was good, but its not. I tested it as best I could having not being able to see the back side of the heater, and it seemed good. I don't know what the purpose of the threaded plug is? It appears to be a brass or chrome plug in the brass fitting that threads into the block.
Does anyone have SiS access that can look up information on this block heater for my 416c back hoe? The serial number is 1WR03918 I'm looking for a schematic.
Sorry, I just saw that you asked for the serial number. It is 1WR03918
I talked to CAT, they haven't seen anything like this. They think it might be original, but they have changed them now. They say I may need to change the whole cord and heater. To bad the cord looks like a heavy duty quality part.
I've never seen one like that either. I doubt that wiring job is factory. I'm GUESSING that's a drywell with a heater inside it, the screw fastens the heater inside the outer casing so you can remove the heater without draining the coolant. That cord connection seems odd for a block heater, usually there's pins in a pattern and the cord is like a computer power cord, it just presses on, or it presses on and there's a screw to secure it. At this point you have nothing to lose by knocking that blue plastic off the heater, there might be a thermostat in there that's opened up, doesn't look like it, but why not try. IF it is a dry heater inside a well, then you could find another heater that would fit, or take the well out and use that threaded hole, or put a heater in another core plug.
I've spent a bunch of time and SIS seems to go all around on this one. Seems there have been many changes to that engine over the years! I'm thinking the original part number for what the factory installed was a 117-9354 heater and it now appears to have been replaced by a 231-3054. SIS does show what I believe to be "Document Numbers" related to the change but I can not access them from my SIS account, might try to see if dealer can take a look at them, SMOC1199 and SEPD0492, and let you know what they refer to. While looking for this information I'm seeing that there are even two different versions of this engine with the arraignment of where the intake and exhaust valves are located in relation to the adjacent cylinders!
I got this from Cat today, you were correct;The heater as 1179354 changes up to 2313054 and the wire as 1179324 change up to 1614150. It looks like the new one has to go into a frost plug hole. I would much rather take the old one apart and try to find an after market piece/element that would work from a jobber. It would cost less if I can find one. The new parts are $300 plus and I would have to know which frost plug they are using on my engine.
Do Katz or other heater makers have a core plug heater listed for your engine? that would be my first choice. Then a tank or lower radiator hose heater.
Well how about this one from ZeroStart? Not sure about availability in Canada but they show up on Amazon.com for around $30.00 US. Does Amazon ship to Canada? Just try doing a Google search for "ZeroStart 310-0045" and see what comes up. Maybe Canadian Tire carries ZeroStart?
I haven't figured this out yet. Now its winter again. I'd like to find an easy solution to replace this block heater. There must be a part that will replace this element. I went to cat but they couldn't find anything, but I'm in Canada. Many times I have hit dead ends like this in Canada, where in the States its usually an easier solution. This is an old post so I'm not sure if anyone remembers. I do apreciate all the suggestions and comments I received from you guy's on this forum.
416C Backhoe S/N 1WR03918 was equipped with the 117-9320 Jacket Water Heater Gp when it was originally built in July 1998. As pointed out above 117-9354 that is part of the the 117-9320 Group updates to 231-3054. Here are parts references from the original, and from a later 416F2 showing the new-type block heater install and the parts used by each group. If one part on your machine is bad then it may mean updating other parts in the Group to maintain compatibility. IMO it shouldn't matter where you are in the world if you go into your Cat dealer and give them "good" Part Numbers they ought be able to get hold of them. YMMV........
That 231-3054 group number is available in one ore two days here in NY for $164.09 and includes everything short of the receptacle and some hardware. And the receptacle could be replaced with a standard 120 volt plug end from any hardware store, just not as neat and fancy!
Hi, kshansen , would you have a link to the place where its available and a photo. I just need the element part. Will it work on the original equipment I have on the machine? If so I would order it and have it shipped if possible. If its from Cat , I can let my local dealer know its there. Thanks
Thank you for the info, at least I know what shape the element is as it is installed in the block. Would you have a close up of what the element looks like and a break down of it? Thanks
If you check out the PDF file Noge uploaded "SEPD0492 and start reading at the bottom of page 3 it tells you how to install the heater element for the Series "C" backhoe and includes the part numbers needed. In that list is the heater element 161-8198 which lists here in NY for $144.50 the style may be different than yours but if your engine has the plug described in step #2 of the instructions it should work in your engine even if it is located to a different place than your non-working heater! Not having the heater element and your cord in hand to look at I can not be sure if your cord will fit the new heater. If not the new heater may need to have the new cord # 131-4150 that cord here in NY lists for $60.00. All these part numbers are right out of Cat's parts system so as Nige says they should be available from any Cat dealer in the world. Prices may be different from NY to BC but that I can not quote with any accuracy. Not sure what this machine is worth to you or how much money you could loose by it not starting when needed but do know if you burn out a starter or do other damage to the engine using starting fluid the $200.00 or a little more would have been money well spent in my mind. It's like the old oil filter advertisement that said "Pay me now or pay me latter!" and we all know the latter bill will be much higher! Good luck and be sure to post how you make out with the project!
I would have rather replaced just the element but since they don't make them anymore I will probably have to pop the frost plug out and buy the new part and the new cord as well because judging by this photo I found on the internet, my cord won't work, as mine has 3 wires that hook up to terminal screws on the heater insulator. I may or may not be able to route the new cord into the chrome spring door housing and conduit on my machine. Not sure if the heater that is my machine now is the original either, but the cord is original, judging by the pdf instructions Nige sent me. The description in the instructions for the B series in the pdf seems to match what is in my machine, and so does the heater. The diagrams in the pdf do not show enough detail to really see what the elements look like. I do thank you for the info and the part numbers. The last time I went to the Cat dealer here , they couldn't seem to suggest a replacement. I don't start it with starting fluid. If its too cold I don't run it. I have an old 450 Timberjack Skidder, with a 353 detroit that likes starting fluid. If its really cold I use a parachute, tiger torch and a piece of save pipe to heat it up. Usually when its 20 below or colder.
There is no breakdown - it's a single Part Number therefore it comes as a single piece, at least from Cat anyway, and from the way you are talking Cat is your only possibility of supply because you can't find parts anywhere else. From all the information I can find the changed element Part Number 231-3054 should be a direct replacement for the existing (non-functional) element in your machine. Also my information is that a 231-3052 cord is included along with the element. However that information is not guaranteed 100%, either way it's not the end of the world. If you need a cord you have to buy one separately - cheap at the price......... One has to ask why this subject came up over a year ago and still isn't fixed. Could it be that the summer intervened and the problem went away therefore it got forgotten..? Right over my desk at work is the motto - "Please explain to me EXACTLY why YOUR lack of forward planning should constitute MY Emergency" - seems kinda appropriate.
Hi, Nige, If its a direct replacement, thats perfect. I understood different. I will check with cat next week. I haven't looked anywhere else for an element yet. Did you look at my earlier photos of the one that is in my machine now in the earlier posts, it has set screw or something and seems to come apart in at least two pieces.
I didn't know they had dry well heaters, I will research. I would just take it apart but I don't want the machine down and its been warm lately.