This is a bit weird and I am hopeful someone can help me out. I was running the other day and it started to loose drive and then bucket power and stopped. Still running fine not lights on. I got out and had dumped what looked like a significant amount of Hydraulic Fluid. I figured I had blown a hose or something. So I lifted the cab and the inside was literally full of years of dirt and oil so I spent the next few hours digging, vacuuming and pressure cleaning to get to the point where I could see what was going on, still expecting a hose to be blown. Now I can see what is going on and run the machine and nothing appears to be blown and no big leaks, one small one by nothing like what I expected. Hydraulic Tank is still 3/4 full so plenty of fluid and stiull no drive or bucket etc. One thing it does do now is when I run it and then turn it off I get a loud gurgling sound as though the pump is full of air ? Is there a way to bleed the pump ? Any ideas or suggestions ?
Just from the mention of the gurgling noise on shut down I would be looking very close at the suction side of the hydraulics, suction leak letting air into system would be first guess. Also would be pulling any hydraulic filters and cutting open to see what is in there! I'll reserve comments on the " lifted the cab and the inside was literally full of years of dirt "!
Yeah when I saw it I expected the hard lines to be rusted through. I have only had the machine a week or two and did the base line on the engine, greased everything and was doing a list of the seal kits that needed doing. In hind sight I should have had the guy I got it off lift the cab before I bought it. Oh well at least in SOCAL rust isn't a real issue. I will check the feed lines. Is there any need to bleed the system ? or will it self bleed based on the tank being higher and gravity doing its thing ?
That's why I "reserved" my comments! Now if you said you owned it for ten years......................! I won't say that bleeding is not needed as I have never had the "pleasure" of working on a Cat 287, company bought a Cat skid steer after I retired! But most hydraulic systems do self bleed. My main concern would be if it is sucking air it could also be sucking dirt also air in a hydraulic system can be very destructive of some parts. Bubbles popping at high pressures can act like little explosions that damage parts. Do you at the very least have a operation and maintenance manual? https://catpublications.com/Search/recall?savedSearchId=122273ce-c03b-ea11-911d-005056a270f1
Yeah hopefully it will be something simple. My previous ride was an 1845C so it was somewhat simpler and less weird stuff that this new stuff My Vin # - CAT0287BCZSA03469 I have ordered manuals for it should be here today
IIRC the hydraulic tank on those older B's is mounted above the pump, on the cab side of the firewall between cab and engine. If so, I don't think you've got a suction issue since the tank level is significantly higher than the pump inlet. So you have zero functions and zero drive at this point? Along with a gurgle sound? Being that it was a rapid, but gradual loss of hydraulics and not instantaneous I think we can probably rule out the pump drive coupling. First thing I would do is start putting gauges on it, starting with charge pressure because this really sounds a lot like a failed charge pump to me. The hydraulic oil spill certainly puzzles me though.
Correct the tank is behind the seat just over the pump. Correct Zero Functions, it was working, lost drive and then lost bucket in the space of about 10 seconds. The gurgle sound is very obvious if you start the machine and then turn it off it continues on after you have shut it off like it has built air pressure. Once I have the manual I will get a gauge onto it and see what I can see. Yeah the oil spill was weird, I would have been 100% on expecting to open up and find a hose blow but the more I think about it now the oil was probably low pressure as it wasn't covered and sort of ran out, or it was under the 8" of crap. After looking inside I even started thinking maybe it was just damned up and the oil may not directly relate to the issue but I can see on the ground where it started leaking maybe 5 ft before it stopped. The tank is still 3/4 full so it didn't just keep running out and hasn't leaked since.
By chance did you happen to notice if the hydraulic fan was turning? I'm not 100% certain on the B's but normally charge oil goes thru the fan motor before it charges the hydrostatic system. If the fan isn't turning at all, you'll most likely be looking at a charge pump/charge pressure issue.
I did not but I was just reading that on another thread so I will check it when I get home.
So I started the machine up when I got back and the fan moves but it seems slow and without power. Now it does not look like some sort of thermally controlled variable rate setup so I am going to guess that this means there is bugger all hydraulic pressure getting to it so it is just lazy looping on what little flow there is. I ordered a test port coupler so once I get that I will test pressure but it certainly looks like it is pretty much no existent. Based on what I have read and had posted here it is certainly pointing to the charge pump taking a dump, if that is the case can anyone enlighten me as to an explanation of how that works and what the gurgling sound is ? Anyone had one fail before ?
Basically the charge pump is what supplies oil to the other pumps for all hydraulic functions. The hydrostatic system is a closed-loop circuit so the charge pump pressure is what keeps that system full. I've diagnosed one or 2 that have failed. The gears in the pump chewed the aluminum housing of the pump. Not sure on the B's but on the newer ones the charge oil goes through the filter, then the fan before going to the hydrostatic pumps. If you can trace the lines or review a schematic and can confirm yours is the same way, I'd remove and open up the hydraulic filter to check for debris. Lots of metal/aluminum chunks would indicate there's a good chance the charge pump has failed. What I can't remember for sure is if the filter is before or after the fan. If its after the fan, you'd have to consider that any debris in the filter could be from the fan motor too.
Ok so if I am reading correctly the Fan is after the Charge Pump but before the Filter meaning if the charge pump failed the Fan may well be full of crap .
Well I got the port adapter and tested the line pressure at the fan test port and it was Zero lol. Thinking it might be a gauge issue I opened the port and oil just dribbled out ... so I guess it is time for a new Charge Pump and then I am guessing I will find the leak when the system has pressure again if I am lucky enough not to have damaged anything else. Charge Pumps are like $1100 new from CAT or $500 used although I find it interesting that every used one is off a machine with a broken hours meter so they cant tell me how many hours it has. Needless to say I just ordered new to avoid having to do it again any time soon.
It might pay you to do a complete clean out of the hydraulic system, especially the pilot side. Who knows where the shrapnel from the old pump may have ended up.? And don’t bank on the filter catching it all.....
How do you know the tank is 3/4 full. The sight glass only reads when it’s almost full. The tank is very hard to see into and it has a curved Center section. Before you do anymore put oil in it until it’s full. The symptoms you describe sound like low oil level.
Yeah will do a complete flush and new filter, oil is cheap. I took the lid off the tank and put a light stick in it and could see the oil about 5" down, BUT like everything you have me wondering now so I will double check and make sure it is in fact at that level on not just low and not feeding the pump etc and the real issue being a hose leak that dropped the oil pressure and stopped it pumping which in turn dropped the pressure and stopped the leak . The Current facts are : - Machine dumped oil - Machine lost drive and boom from going to nothing in a few seconds - Machine had a puddle of oil under it and running out on skids - Machine was full of crap and most hard lines in belly are rusted. - Machine runs and sounds normal till I turn it off and it gargles and bubbles - Fan moves slowly with no real force, fan test port has ZERO Pressure Things I need to double Check - Oil level in hydraulic tank to make sure I am not seeing things and fill it up to ensure it is full and do system tests again - Once tank is full run it again and see if it primes up and oil pisses out of a high pressure hose. Its funny how when you are not near the machine you second guess everything you were sure of when standing next to it lol
In all honesty, if you're draining the tank to change the oil, it takes very little time to remove the tank itself and flush it out really good. You'd be suprised at what collects on the bottom of the tanks.
Yes please fill tank. Everything you say its doing is what mine does when it blows a main hose and dumps all the oil in about 20 seconds. Its gurgling because its pumping air. If you're seeing that much oil coming out i doubt your 3/4 full.
Ok so I checked the tank and it was still over the filter. I fitted a new charge pump, fired it up and oil pissed out the drive hose for the right hand side. Of course these are the WORSE hoses ever invented to change so I had to pull the drive motor out to get to the fittings and even then it was a complete PITA ... Got them out, fitted new hoses , tested system and no leaks, drive is back. Now I will flush the entire system, change the filter, fill with new oil and get back to digging. If I ever meet the CAT engineer who designed the drive motor hose locations and hook up I am gunna beat him ... and for anyone who says they can replace the main drive hoses on a 287B without pulling the drive motor, I would pay $$$ to see that happen as I don't think it is possible..... Part Numbers used in case it helps someone else are : Machine 2006 CAT 287B Ser: ZSA03469 220-8127 : Charge Pump @ $1066.88 218-6637 : Lower @ $347.42 218-6638 : Upper @ 358.59 1G-8878 : Hydraulic Filter @$63.67 3096931 : Oil Hydro 10 5 Gal Buckets @$106.66 ea ( 5 Gal Test : 14: 7 Gal for full system ) Now all that being said I still don't completely understand where all the oil came from so have convinced my self the mud and crap was collecting it and the hose was just enough to push it all out and make a bigger mess than what i though. I stopped the machine quick enough ( Charge pump died quick enough ) that the full tank did not drain and created the confusion Anyway, hopefully that helps anyone who happens to have a similar issue. I ended up buying a Service Manual as a down load file online which was more of a complete dump out of CAT Software than a Repair Manual but if anyone else needs it I am happy to share so you can save the $$$$ , it was over 200 MB so it aint small and it did have a lot of handy info but is somewhat confusing to use lol
I definitely pulled mine to change the hoses. I also welded up a piece to zip tie the hoses to. Chafing is what got mine.
Mine went just under the main pump and I think the amount of mud they had packed into their covers probably killed them. Where do u think yours were chaffing ?
Ive replaced those hoses on several machines. It all in the tooling you have to do the job.
Chafing on the idler wheels.
Are you saying you can/ have replaced them without pulling the drive motor ? If so I would love to know what tools you have that let you do it as I seriously don't see how it is physically possible. I could get the front one off but no hope of the rear one and even if through some act of god you did manage I doubt very much you could get those hose retainer brackets back on with hose pre load and not damage an o-ring.
How do you plan to "flush the entire system"? My 2006 242B has a hydraulic tank volume of 9.3 USG (35 litres) and a hydraulic system volume of 14.5 USG (55 litres) ... at least according to the CAT 232B/242B sales brochure ... my Operation and Maintenance Manual only gives the above hydraulic tank volume. I imagine that your volumes could be similar. I "assume" that draining the hydraulic tank would still leave about 1/3 of the hydraulic fluid in the system (5.2 USG or 20 litres). Does anyone have any tips on getting the entire hydraulic system changed over to new fluid? I too want to flush my system and change to a synthetic fluid with at least a -30 deg C (-22 deg F) pour point (or colder). If possible, please report how much of your system volume you get back by draining the hydraulic tank. Thanks.
Yep pretty much .. as per above I am planning on 14.7 Gal ish . I used one to test system so that was 5 gals ( 1 Bucket ) and then I have 3 buckets to put in after flush. I actually have 4 as I don't want to run short and it is not like it won't get used. To flush I will : - Pump tank with fluid extractor which is just a fancy name for an air operated vacuum pump , I have a system like this - https://www.materialshandling.com.au/products/fast-fluid-recovery-vacuum-drum-pump/ I stick hose in tank and drain it. I then remove the tank from machine and flush it out as suggested on this thread due to the shape and stuff staying in there from years of abuse. - Pull a lower pump line and let it drain. Once it stops depending on how much comes out push some low pressure air through it. Now I have also done it by simply taking a line off and running the machine so I will see how I go. End result is that I do not expect to get it all out of everywhere as cylinders etc will still have fluid in but I should get 80% of it and that will do. Once done I will run it to temp and work it a little and then swap filters again and cut open the new one and if it all looks good then we are back in business. I am a bit paranoid due to charge pump stuff getting around but most of teh system is post filter apart from the fan
You are right to be paranoid - carry on.
Why synthetic.? Just because it has a fancy name.? 10W hydraulic will work just as well at half the price, even for good quality oil, not the Joe Blow's Gas & Groceries variety.
10w at -30 does not make for a happy skidsteer. We use 0w20 in most of the machines that work in those temps. The controls get sluggish with 10w. I’m not sure about your conclusion on the charge pump failure. I’ve had drive hoses fail on my 287 and the way they act is the machine stops driving almost immediately . You get out see the oil , change the hose , add about 5 gallons of oil and all is good. Yes they are not fun to change and I find it easier to just drop the drive motor out which isn’t that hard if you’ve done it a few times. It’s easier to clean it up and not get dirt in the fittings.
Gotcha. My bad, not used to the cold...... Do you use synthetic 0W/20 hydraulic oil or mineral.?
Standard fill for us year round TDTO 0W-20.
Barnfab - Thanks for your flush procedure. CAT suggests to follow a pressure bleed off procedure prior to draining. I don't know if you will get any more out with the pressure bleed off but I have attached their bleed off procedure below for reference / discussion.
I have a 2006 287B and I bought it broke Only one track will turn but only when you give it significant throttle. Now the bucket and lift arms stopped moving. It has a yellow light on which I believe is hydraulic interlock Any help would be appreciated
What is the Serial Number and do you have at the very minimum an Operation & Maintenance Manual for it..?
Pzsa02608 no book on machine.
OK, here's what I suggest based on your reply and the info from your first post. You need a manual, no doubt about that. Go to - https://catpublications.com/ When the popup appears click on "Continue as Guest" Type SEBU7732 in the box and click Search. You should see the illustration below. You can buy an Adobe pdf download for $49. CD & paper versions will attract S&H charges on top of the posted price. If you decide to buy an electronic copy you'll receive an email when your file is ready for download. You don't have to have an account to do this. To download it click "Login" on the menu bar, then the "Manage Orders" hyperlink. From memory the file stays there for about 24 hours after you buy it, then it disappears.
That's got the manual out of the way. So you bought this machine as a non-runner. What were you told when you bought it regarding what the hydraulic system problem is/was..?
I actually just did this and got my own. a buddy had a manual, We did some trouble shooting and everything led to charge pump that’s located in front of the rest of pumps. We replaced it with new and still no difference. Luckily I live within 15 miles from the dealer for parts. Still lost as where to go next. thanks
Yes I bought it broke. Guy I bought from said the track locked up, his mechanic replaced brake and it rolled free. Also, when I bought it the lift arms and bucket worked fine. So after I unloaded it from trailer bucket n arms stopped working. Still wouldn’t move unless I give it quite a bit of throttle.
I suggest that you replace the hydraulic filter. Cut the old one open and squeeze a section of the filter media in a vice. Look for particles in the bottom of the pleats. Loads of videos on YouTube how to do it. The problem is that even if the charge pump is/was your problem, when it sh1ts itself metal particles go everywhere and Sod's Law dictates that lots of them end up in extremely undesirable places.
I have cut hydraulic filter apart It had no metallic shavings but it did look as if there were brass flakes in it
Usually see brass from the slipper shoes of the pumps or motors. About the only places I can think of that you'd get brass from.
Brass is/was a metal (or to be more correct a metal alloy) the last time I looked. There is probably contamination all the way through the hydraulic system because even the standard Cat filter is not a particularly fine micron element. Add that to the fact that if the filter plugged enough it would start to bypass and, hey ho, metal everywhere. It would appear that you have a major strip-down and cleanout ahead before it would be even worth contemplating hooking up gauges and testing anything. That may be related to the lack of drive on one side, or to the main hydraulic pump, or both.
Well let’s hope for the best
Either way be under no illusions about the cleaning challenge you face, otherwise any new parts you install could easily be torn up by residual contamination in the system. Maybe this was the reason the former owner decided to offload it..?
Yes I’m prepared for this. I was thinking the same as if why he had wanted to sell
So your issue was a drive hose?? I have similar issue with 277b - where is your charge pump
Idk what mine is yet
Mobiltech / 92U 3406 - What brand of 0W-20 are you using in your cold weather applications? I am looking to change the oil in my hydraulic system on my 2008 CAT 242B and would like to be good for -30 or -35 C. I see that the CAT Hydro Advanced 10 is specified for a pour point of -39 C. The spec for the original CAT Hydro 10 was a pour point of -30 to -33 C. But as you said, the controls get sluggish with the 10W ... and perhaps pour point is not that great of an indicator for real life conditions. Just looked up CAT TDTO Cold Weather 0W-20 ... is has a pour point of -54 C.
We used Caterpillar TDTO 0W-20.
You can use Cat TDTO, or any other 0W-20 multigrade TO-4 oil, to get the low ambient temperature coverage that you are looking for. Any of the main oil company brands should work fine, I would just stay away from parts store brands.