Hey there, I have a 2005 Deere 200clc. As of lately it has been losing power to the point of stalling the motor while just operating the hydraulics, even with no load on them. The machine tons great for about the first five minutes until things warm up, then it's starts bogging down, running rough, and putting some odd smoke out the exhaust. So far I've been told that it's either the injection pump (standayne de10) or the computer off the machine. Neither part is cheap, just looking for some opinions on which to change first, how to figure out which it is, or any other options on what the problem may actually be. Thanks
The computer control the inj. pump.. so you gotta MAKE SURE that you have atleast 5 PSI to the inj.pump INLET at FULL LOAD.. It would be worth the effort, to plumb a gauge inline at the inj. pump or as close to it as you could get.. THAT will tell you a lot..
Alright. I will see what I can do. Don't have a lot of the gauges and hookups for that kind of stuff. Maybe I'll have to go but some supplies. Is it possible these issues are stemming from the lift pump then? Gosh that would be nice.
Its been awhile since I worked on 1 but I do remember they are hard piped to the inlet.. what about tapping into a bleed screw on the filter head?? as long as your taking your reading AFTER the lift pump, anywhere will be ok..
Check to see if something's floating around in your fuel tank and blocking the fuel supply hose and then floating again when the engine is stopped.
How exactly can you check that? I've looked into the tank the best I can from the top, and blown the fuel lines back until tank to be sure they aren't plugged. But there isn't a lot of room to look into that full hole. They don't make anything easy do they!
Make sure your filter heads are clean .Take black caps off or if there is hand primer on one or both make the check valve under them are clean. You can pull them out a pair of pliers.
Lift pumps are inexpensive compared to the "other" culprits.. if you cant get a guage plumbed in, just replace the LP.. IF you narrow it down to the IP.. it HAS TO BE TIMED before removal.. & you need a puller, to pop off the front gear.. They didn't make ANYTHING easy..
I did just go ahead and replace the lift pump. Didn't seem to make any difference. And near as I can tell there is no air in the system or restrictions for the fuel. So I'm really thinking is the injection pump. At least that sends to be the next thing to logically try. I talked to my Deere dealer and the timing process doesn't seem to complicated to follow
NO, NOT complicated.. just a pain in the ars.. Come back & tell us "how un-complicated" it was.. lol I wouldn't use Deere for an exchange pump for a DE pump.. they double & triple the cost from an independent fuel shop.. You can get 1 rebuilt between 6 & 900.00.. Deere probably want 1200.00?? I "used to do" them for my local JD Dealer.. he'd put'm on his shelf & sell'm for 1200.00 +. HIS COST was 5-600.00.. It takes MANY special tools to do THAT pump.. MAKE SURE the shop KNOWS its a DE pump heading their way.. Good luck.
Deere wants 2300 for a reman. I can get a brand new pump from my local diesel shop for around 1500, so I think I will go the brand new route, my local guy says they haven't always had the best luck rebuilding this style of pump. Not sure why. But I've worked with him before and trust his opinion. And that counts for a lot for sure
pumpguy, do you know if you need the timing pins to correctly change the injection pump? I've been told by one person you absolutely need them, v and a different guy told me all I need is a little bolt and that will work just fine. I just don't want to mess anything up
Don't be afraid of the hard plumbed supply line. You just need the correct fitting to go between it and the injection pump, and run a line to the cab with a pressure gauge, that seems like a reasonable thing to test before buying a new pump. If you need help identifying the threads, http://www.discounthydraulichose.com/v/vspfiles/downloadables/thread_guide.pdf they probably have the fittings too. I don't know if thepumpguy was saying he doesn't have the tools to do that pump or what, but I'd email to see if he's interested. Also, TPG, is this a typical failure mode for this style of pump?
If its the inj. pump it will show a code AND they POP & SKIP at higher rpms.. I don't have the tools to do THAT PAUMP correctly.. A "reman" has the same warranty as a "new" pump.. & just because your guy isn't comfy doing them, doesn't mean others aren't.. I used to knock out 5 a month w/ no come-backs.. The pump & engine timing tools can be the back side of a drill bit.. the ROUND BITS, NOT the triangle, cut ones.. The FLYWHEEL hole will come up 2x.!!! the pump hole ONLY 1x.. SO, drop the pin in the PUMP FIRST & "check" the flywheel hole.. {not complicated, huh?}
Thanks for the info. So far, here is what has been done to the machine. 1. Replaced injector pump 2. Replaced lift pump and thoroughly cleaned all fuel lines. 3 . Bypassed fuel cooler as there seemed to be some air getting into second fuel filter. 4. Checked tank for any debris, was perfectly clean 5. Had all injectors checked, all were fine. 6. Changed all fuel filters. *Were not done in the order listed Now, there still seems to be a very slight but of air in the final fuel filter housing when I crack the bleeder after the machine dies or I shut it off while it's acting up. The machine runs good for a few minutes after sitting still, then reverts to the lack of power to the point of killing the machine, but only while operating hydraulics. It doesn't matter which function, any and all Hydraulic movements cause the power loss. It does seem to be that the longer the machine sits still, the longer it will operate normally before wanting to die. I must add that it will run perfectly fine at any engine speed while no hydraulics are being used. Then you start moving things and it wants to die. Please help, I really can't afford to have this thing out at a dealer and pay them to take however long to figure it out. Worst case I would at least like to be able to point them in the right direction.
Have you physically verified fuel pressure at the injection pump?
Yes. I'm actually above spec. Running 11 psi coming into the injection pump
At full load while it's bogging down?
Yes
It drops to like 6-7 at lowest but that's when it's too the point is basically died because of bogging
When did all of this get done? What about the computer? It would sure be nice to have another machine to swap computers with for something like this. The last sentence "the longer the machine sits still, the longer it will operate normally" sounds like a failing electronic problem to me.
That's what I was very afraid of too. And it's all been done in the past 48 hours. So it's all fresh fixes. And trust me, I know. I really don't want to spend the money for a computer that turns out I didn't need. But hey, I'm into it this feel already right? Lol. Maybe then I could rent it out to others for diagnostic purposes as well. I did unhook the batteries before I left the machine tonight. So I'll see if anything has happened to reset itself when I'm back in the morning. Hope is all I have to go in right now
There is a guy on here who specializes in electronics repair if you were interested in saving money at the expense of time, probably not in this case. I have no idea what the "computer" consists of in this case, just a thought. I can never find the user when I think of him, something like milarue, but that doesn't come up with anything. edit: not that guy, rmlarue is somebody else
Yeah. I just don't know though. It it was the computer I wouldn't understand why it only ever caused problems when operating the Hydraulics. It never even sputters or misses a single beat if you just let it sit there. I would think if it was a computer issue it would happen at least I've in a while with no load on at all
IF it runs perfectly fine w/ no load or any hydro use.. & dies as soon as any hydros are used.. its a hydro problem.. loading the engine to the point it shuts off.. A stuck relief valve somewhere.. building pressure.. By some sort of dumb luck, did you happen to unhook or hook up any lines lately.. & possibly got them backwards??
I'm with TPG. Your engine is fine. The fact the fuel pressure drops as the engine loads up and starts to stall suggests the engine is drinking full fuel. How does the unit behave if you go full boom up? No feathering the controls, just hard up. IIRC, boom uses both pumps, where all other functions use either one or the other pump. I'm wondering if both pumps stroke full, while only one pump's functions are passing oil. That would deadhead the unused pump, possibly causing the problem you describe.
It does have the issue with full boom up, but I really don't think it's in the pumps, because if the split pumps. Mainly because it doesn't matter which function im using. It will do it with any and all function at different times. If it's a hydraulic issue, and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it would have to be a oil supply issue because it's effecting all of the functions right?
And also no, the last lines I had off of this machine was a line up on the boom for the hydraulic thumb that blew ito, and that was around a month before this issue appeared. With a couple hundred hours on the machine since then
Update, the machine had started to have issue at high idle with no hydraulic load what do ever. It even bugged to the point it killed itself when I wasnt even in the machine
I would sure like to see a video of the exhaust while the engine is misbehaving, along with good audio. The sound of an engine starving for fuel is quite different from one being lugged so hard it dies.
To me, from past experience, it sounds like starving for fuel, that's why I was working in the fuel system before looking at hydraulics. I'm 90% confident it's a fuel issue. Just don't know what else would he causing the fuel issue.
If it's the hydraulic pumps and not the engine low on power, then the hydraulic pressure has to be higher than the spec, or the efficiency has to be shot so that the pump is "dragging". The engine is designed to handle the volume that the pumps are capable of to move the biggest cylinder with no load. In my mind, if you activate boom in, stick in, bucket curl and swing all at the same time, then there is no way that the pressure is higher than spec, and it has to be a low engine power issue, or visible trash showing up in the hydraulic filter from a failing hydraulic pump. One thing that may help diagnose this is if it still runs fine for a few minutes after sitting. That's something to see what changes, the hydraulic pressure, the fuel pressure, air in the fuel return, turbo boost pressure. I'd bet one of those things changes from when it's running fine to when it stalls. The tough part is getting the measurement at the same RPM when the engine won't stay running with any load. you want to see if the fuel pressure drops before the RPM, or the turbo boost doesn't build with the load like it does when cold, or air bubbles show up in the fuel return, or something like that.
I agree with you. Very hard to get those readings when it doesn't run correctly. Especially when it's just me working on it. Hard to run a machine and be watching the engine compartment at the same time
Where are you from in WI delmer? You don't happen to be close to the la Crosse area do you?
not too far at all. But I'm no expert on excavators, or computer controlled injection pumps. Close enough to dump a body, but far enough to think you'll get away with it, if you watch the news tonight.
Well you seem to have a bit better idea then I do. Lol. I'm just gonna try a few of these small suggestions today. Otherwise I'm ready to give up
Hey I know I'm late to the party and I'm not familiar with this machine but is that engine turbocharged do you still have Boost How about running the machine off an alternate source of fuel like a 5-gallon jug have you tried that yet have you checked your tank breather filter is your fuel caps on securely is your fuel cap vented. Just a couple of things I thought might be worth looking into Are your air cleaners plug is your air intake piping in good order do you have any boost leaks
Don't feel bad, you are still early to this party because I'm no closer to having it running right then I was when I first posted. I am getting good venting in the fuel system, no vacuum or pressure when opening the cap after running. No boost leaks, still running good boost pressure, it seems a little low to me when the machine starts to act up, but I truly believe that can be attributed to the fact that the engine itself is getting shorted on fuel so it can't create the busyb when short on fuel. I think I have it down to an electrical problem though, as I am running good flow and correct pressure to the injection pump. And the injection pump is brand new, and the symptoms didn't change when the injection pump was changed. Add in the fact that everything has to get hot before the machine acts up, it's seeming more and more like electrical issues somewhere
You could very well be onto something when you said the engine runs for a little while and then starts acting up it could be that your electrical system is going into closed loop and now looking at all sensors for input. Do you have any method of seeing what the computer sees as far as boost coolant temperature intake air temperature at cetera
No I don't. I wish I knew someone besides Deere who had the software. They want like 1000 bucks just to come out and plug it in. Seems a little excessive to me. I was just told to wrap the commuter in plastic and stuff it into a cooler of Ice while running the machine, and if it didn't act up I know the computer is overheating and causing the issues. Seems like a risky way to diagnose electronics. But maybe withw a shot at this point
For example some systems are set up where if it sees high intake air temperature hi boost pressure it will pull the boot the fuel back and limit the amount of boost you can create. I would not think that it would limit it to the point of bogging the engine down or starving the engine for fuel. I'm going to ask again cuz I don't recall and I'm driving but you did State you checked all fuel fittings all banjos and some of those goofy rubber grommets that some manufacturers like to use you don't have any debris no air intrusion anywhere correct
Have you any means to place a vacuum gauge on your Inlet line to the lift pump I would think anything more than four to five inches is way too much
And what kind of fuel lines do you have are they double wall vinyl or are they the old fashioned rubber lines w\ hose clamps or crimps
They are the rubber fuel line hoses. And I don't have a vacuum gauge, so I can't effectively test that. I get what you are saying about the computer needing those numbers though. That makes sense. And yes I have checked and cleaned basically the entire fuel system. Even removed and cleaned all of the steel lines and installed with new seals. Like I said, I'm getting correct flow and pressure to the injection pump, so I'm really thinking that it has got to be something electrical controlling how much fuel it's actually giving the motor
Well I wouldn't try a bag of regular ice I don't see well I wouldn't dry a bag of regular ice I don't see what harm a bag of dry ice would cause
That's a good point. I guess I'll have to see where I can some dry ice in town. That should at least tell me if it is the heat after running that is effecting the computer allowing it overheat internally
200clc you can check the active engine codes in the gauge located behind the cab..any active codes? I’ve seen de10 vintage ecu’s fail with no codes..but if you had something it would help with diagnostics..usually with that fuel system with those symptoms, if you’ve verified the low pressure system is good and replaced the pump..the ecu is generally the culprit..almost says that word for word in the book
Well I really appreciate all of the replies from you guys. So much help here it's astounding. But it ended up being a cracked filter base in the water separator. Im not sure if the air it was sucking in was the reason I was still getting good pressure readings on the low pressure side or why it was reading that it was good. But I only found the culprit onon accident when I pulled the filter off to check and see if i had any crap accumulating again, and once the filter was empty I couldn't get the system to prime up again to save my life. So that's when I looked a little closer and findf a crack in the filter base sucking air. Nothing like spending a few thousand dollars to fix a 50$ problem right? Could have been worse I guess. But I really do appreciate all of the replies and wealth of knowledge this forum has to offer
Outstanding! It's always the last place you look. You know, pump guy and myself usually recommend lightly pressurising the entire fuel system with compressed air. For whatever reason, we both neglected to suggest this step. Perhaps, because you reported maintaining fuel pressure.It may or may not have revealed that crack. Well, sorry for the omission. Glad you found it.
Oh it's ok. I tried pressurising the entire system to get it to prime up, and when even that wasn't working is when I got really suspect of something wrong in that filter base. But again, really appreciate it!
Thanks for posting the solution. I'm surprised it wasn't leaking fuel externally.
I am having the same issue with two Derate codes and one pump timing codes I could use some help I’m lost in this thing
I would suggest opening a new thread. We got a guy for Deere stuff. Make sure you include model, serial, hours and attachments. Describe what's going on and what aggravates the situation the most and dont forget the error codes.
Wondering what you found out on your issue.
Same suggestion. Open a new thread with model and serial. A good description of what is going on. There are guys here who know Deere. But they're not gonna troll zombie threads to help a guy out.