Just had my injector pump rebuilt. I get fuel across the pump and out the return line but I cant get any in the injector lines. There is 2 solenoids on the pump, the one on top has 12+ volts with the key on and the one on bottom has nothing. Should the one on the bottom have power at any given time? I assume there is a relay of fuse but I don't have a manual or wiring diagram for this machine.
Serial 0287bhzsa02652
Followed the entire schematic for your machine. Fuel shut down solenoid is Part number #231-2999 . It is fed by wire A309-EA15 GY-18. This wire goes through multiple plugs and is fed by Fuse Block 1 , Fuse 18 - 10 Amp Check that fuse with a test light to make sure it is okay. Maybe Nige will check out the schematic to make sure I am correct. Maybe the solenoid is grounding out or the harness is having issues. There is also a ground strap behind the fuel tank ,I believe that could cause problems. Let us know if fuse is okay. Simon C
Here is a diagram of the fuel pump. The shutoff solenoid is #6. It works on a "energize to run" basis so should have system voltage whenever the key in ON. Which is the "bototm one" you are referring to - #13 by chance.?
The one on the bottom doesn't show on your diagram. There is power to that one on top with the key on. My pump is a denso 196000-5030 4.
Strange. That illustration above came straight out of the 287B Service Manual for your Serial Number. The other strange thing is that even the electrical schematic (again for your S/N) does not show a 2nd solenoid. Can you post a photo of the 2nd solenoid.? Can you also please identify any wire colours & numbers that are connected to both of the solenoids in your pump. Also does each solenoid have 1 or 2 wires connected to it.?
Looking down on the Injector pump from above, there are 2 separate wires going to 2 separate solenoids. The green wire on the top is actually spliced via butt joint connector to the red wire and the lower red wire connected to the lower solenoid. Both wires have the same single pin plug in. Only the top wire has power with the key on.
Here's the lower solenoid. They both are a single stud with nut- you can see the protective boot covering the stud here.
We need an input here from our resident FIP expert, and that's not me....... Can you post a photo showing the complete Denso reference number on the plate in the top of your photo please.? OK, so you have a black wire pigtail coming out of the lower solenoid. Does the wire colour change when it gets to the other side of the white connector in the bottom RH of the photo.? if so, what colour goes away from it to the engine wiring harness.?
Here is the wiring harness, which has 2 separate red wire leads going to the 2 pump solenoids, 1 white wire going to the oil sending sensor and a green wire that is clipped- goes nowhere.
We need an input from @thepumpguysc . He's the man to take this further. I suspect one will be a shutdown solenoid and the other one a cold start device, designed to energize if the coolant temperautre is below a certain value. Can you read the number marked on the outside of that red wire.? Someone has definitely been messing with that electrical setup because those are not Cat wiring harness connectors.
Fuse 18 on mine is good, it's actually a 15A. I have 5 relays but I can't figure out which one is related to the pump.
The red wire to the top has these numbers- CSA 234608 TEW. The red wire to the lower has none that are readable. Even if someone has been messing with these wires, remember that this thing pumped fuel before I had it rebuilt. The reason I had it rebuilt is that my crank was getting a lot of fuel put into it, so I suspected the main two way lip seal on the injector pump shaft had to be it. The pump was rebuilt with new solenoids and tested before he sent it back to me. I just cant get it to send fuel to the injectors, so I think it has to be the FSS isn't allowing that. The question is, is there supposed to be power to that lower solenoid? Or does that even serve a function as far as sending fuel to the injectors? Is there any other reason that the pump wouldn't push fuel other than the FSS isn't working? I know there is fuel in the pump as when the electric transfer pump is activated, when I crack the return line bolt I get a good flow of fuel.
Check out the electrical schematic that I sent to you, Page 13, Grid G-10. The cold start device is shown as per the snip below. A temp switch with incoming Ignition-controlled power to it on wire 110-GN that when it closes energizes what is labelled as the "cold start Pump As" via wire G455-PK. The cold start switch #2 is located on the end of the cylinder head as shown. I am assuming that it will be on the end of the head closest to the FIP location. It should have a 2-pin connector on it. IMHO (and unless I'm missing something) you still ought to get smoke from the chimney when cranking even if the cold start device was not working.
The sol on the bottom is for a cold start device.. it simply retards the timing during cranking. The one on top is the actual fuel shut off solenoid..
Ok, so what would be the cause of the pump not sending fuel to the injector lines? The solenoid has power with the key on, and the electric fuel pump is running fuel thru the intake and out the return on the Injector pump.
The cold start is there and has power to it but is that not independent of actuating fuel flow? It should crank and feed fuel even if the cold start isn't working.
Did u by chance drop the key way when u put the pump in.?? Or did u get it back with the gear already on it.?
I put the gear on, he had inserted a new key and it was already tapped into the shaft snugly- it is definately in there.
U r correct.. it should pump fuel weather the csd works or not..
try to get someone to turn the key on and off while u listen to the solenoid clicking.. Otherwise I’m stumped..
Well I finally figured it out. I was fooled into thinking the injector pump had fuel all along because when I cracked the return line on the injector pump, I got fuel flow. I noticed that the return line "t's" into the injector return line AND into the return line coming off of the fuel filter and electric assist pump. That line was being backfed thru the "T" to the injector pump making me think the injector pump had fuel coming thru it. Once I saw this, I opened the intake line from the electric assist pump/filter housing and no fuel was coming thru even tho you could hear it buzzing. THe brass port in the electric assist pump has a pinhole in it that the fuel feeds thru to the injector pump. It was full of ice! So, I got fuel squirting out of the injectors but still no fire. I removed the intake hose off of the turbo and sprayed fuel in there while it was being cranked over and can get it to fire and run that way, so I suspect my timing is off when I meshed the gears up installing the injector pump, I didn't get them lined up right. Do you have a timing procedure for this? There is a 22 stamped on the engine gear and a 33 stamped on the FIP gear. No other marks to line up timing that I see.
See the attachment. Also I think you should invest some time into finding out why the solenoid for the CSD mechanism is not energizing. From one of your photos on the previous page where I'm sure I saw what looked like snow on the FIP the engine coolant should be well below 140 DegF which is the temp at which the coolant switch on the cylinder head closes and powers the CSD solenoid. That is also going to help cold starting.
Thanks for attachment. You are right in that there should be power to that solenoid until it reaches temp. Its hard to figure out as you said there's nothing in the wiring diagram about a second relay but I will take a look once I get it running and in a warm space! so, the attachment you sent is for fine tuning the timing. I need to time it as if the pump was removed and reinstalled. In other words, I need to time the gear meshing.
Here is the R&I for the FIP and the procedure to set TDC on #1 cylnder.
Got the timing on but still cant get it to fire. Injectors are all squirting fuel. If I remove the hose from the turbo to the intake and spray fuel into the intake, it fires and runs as I feed it fuel. Why won't it run on it's own fuel?
Pull the throttle to wide open and try it again..
This is bad news in a fuel system. So who knows what else has been frozen and not letting fuel pass thru as needed
Do you have a space heater to blow in the engine compartment for a while? You may still have an ice problem somewhere else.
well, the timing is on, I even pulled #1 injector to make sure it was actually misting on the business end. It was. #1 cylinder is loaded with fuel. I haven't done a compression check but the compression was good enough to blow the towel off the head when I had the injector out of it's port to test it. Won't Combust the fuel. Checked the glow plugs- one was dead. If I spray ether into the intake, it fires. So, it seems as if the fuel into the cylinders is not getting to combustion point as the ether is at a much higher combustion point. Short of a compression test, I'm out of thoughts on where to look next.
If I’m not mistaken, the 33 will line up with another 3..??
The engine only needs good compression, heat through compression, and fuel atomized at the right time to fire. One of these your engine isn't meeting. Does the engine smoke at all when you try to start it?
I still suspect a timing issue as in possibly 180 degrees out. Can you explain how you know it’s in time? If it runs while spraying “fuel” in the intake that rules out compression or almost any other problem other than injection timing .
I'm with you on 180 out. but not on the engine. Pumpguy yes, the 33 lines up with 3. The fuel is atomizing, just not at the right time, I get blue smoke out the exhaust but it smells like fuel. So, how am I 180 out of time? I am thinking that the pump is 180 out. Is it even possible for that to have happened when the guys rebuilt it?
It IS NOT possible for the pump to be 180* out of time.. It fires all its cylinders every complete rotation of its drive shaft..
ok, but it is possible for it to be 180 out with the engine? meaning its delivering or firing on the exhaust stroke. I'm going to pull the valve cover and the #1 glow plug and take a look at the valves at tdc. Or is there another way to check the pump timing with the engine timing? I've heard of a pulse indicator but there's got to be a way to check if it's close without one of those.
To be sure it’s on tdc number one I think it’s easiest to pull the valve cover or maybe see through oil fill hole on valve cover.
So, I took another look at timing, The 33 on the idler gear lines up with the other 3 on the IP every 15 revolutions of the IP. so you can't just set the 3's to mesh and call it good. You have 14 chances of being wrong. They have got to line up when the cam and crank lines up with their marks on the idler gear. Since those gear diameters are all different, that happens at different number of revolutions for each one. I don't really want to pull the front engine cover to see when those line up so I can set the pump accordingly, so I am waiting on a bore scope and thinking I can snake that in thru the FIP gear cover and watch for alignment that way. That's how my timing is off. I don't know if knowing TDC of #1 is the way out of this because where would you set the pump timing to when it is at TDC on #1? This is an interesting dilemma that could have been easily avoided by marking whichever 2 gears were meshing when the pump was pulled. But then I wouldn't be learning stuff I don't know! If I knew the number of teeth on the crank and on the cam, I could figure it out mathematically.
Look at the balancer at the front of the engine.. there should be a pointer and slash mark on the pulley referencing TDC #1.. U might have to remove the radiator.??
If you do have the pointer on the balancer, you will need to make sure the engine is on the number1 compression stroke at that point. The best way is to watch the intake valve on number 1 cylinder. When it opens it will be on the down stroke, when it closes itis just starting on the compression stroke. Once it closes, line up the pointer marks at exactly when it is approached as you continue on that stroke. MAKE SURE YOU ARE ROTATING THE ENGINE IN THE PROPER NORMAL ROTATION.
When you are barring the engine over if you watch closely you will see Exhaust valve from number 4 cylinder coming back up . At the point that the exhaust valve of number 4 is nearly at top of travel the intake of number 4 cylinder valve will start to go down. That is the top dead center area of number 1 cylinder on the compression stroke, as 1&4 travel together as a team. 1 cylinder is on compression, while the other is on exhaust. They travel up together and travel down together. Hope it helps. Simon C
Im not having trouble finding TDC on the compression stroke. What I need to know is where are the timing marks on both the cam and the crank in relation to the idler gear when the engine is TDC? Those have to both be in time with the idler before I can set the IP gear in time with the idler. I figure there has to be a way of knowing without taking the front cover off the engine. I bet there's a guy out there that knows. I have a scope coming, hoping to snake that in there and take a look when it gets here.
If you are on the #1 compression stroke the marks on the crank cam and idler don't matter. Install the pump gear timing mark to the highest tooth on that idler. The cam and IP gears turn half the amount of the crank. The only other way is to lock the pump in time and stab it per above.