Ive been reading the couple of threads on here about septic systems. Heres my problem. My family built a vacation cabin in Northeastern PA about 6 years ago. It is a very small cabin, one room, 12x16 just a little place to get away. Since its construction we have been using a porta-john purchased from a porta-john outfit as the bathroom, we keep it clean, doesnt even smell foul inside, my mom doesnt even mind. Recently we received a notice from our lovely local govenment that we have an "illegal septic system" and that it must be remedied before the end of this year or we face "substantial fines" as if their $450 "sewage permit fee" wasnt enough of a fine by itself. Apparently one of my do-gooder neighbors decided to turn us in inspite of the fact that we've done everything possible to be hospitable to our neighbors up there. Of the options that we are allowed to have by far the cheapest one is to put in what the county deems a "legal privy". Basically a tank (has to be concrete, minimum 1000 gal.) with an outhouse of sorts on top. The size of the tank is preposterous as far as our needs our concerned, in the last 2 years since my dads been ill Ive had the opprotunity to go up there exactly 3 times, and that was mostly to do maintinence. The porta-john which has been there for 6 nearly years, the 40 gal. tank on it is 1/4 full. You guys do the math and tell me that a 1000 gal tank is a little more than overkill. After a pleasant conversation with our Sewage Enforcement Officer, which was something akin to talking to a brick wall when it came to being reasonable, Im am stuck with building this silly thing to satisfy these... people (Id rather say something else). I had asked the SEO if there was an outfit that would just do the whole thing for me, so he gave me a number to this outfit that he recomended. For a 1000 gal concrete tank, dug and set this guys price was $1800. And he doesnt build the superstructure, which is going to cost around another $500-800 in material for me to build. I called a tank caster not very far from there and they said that their 1000 gal rect. privy tank is $1035 delivered and set. I can get a Komatsu PC27 for $350 for a day, delivery included. So heres my question for you guys, I have never dug a tank before, but Ive done drainage, and waterproofing digouts, so I know my way around an excavator. SEO said theres no problem with me doing it myself. How hard is it to do? Is the $400 difference worth it to have someone that has set tanks before do it?. I am on a very tight budget, mainly because of my dads aforementioned illness. As a side note, heres what a racket this is... the last name of the excavator that was referred to me by the SEO is the same last name as the woman who runs the office of the sewage district... And how bout this, the SEO's phone number in the official paperwork, voicemail? nope, home answering machine. Which he'll then call you back, usually sometime after dinner. Maybe this complaining sounds childish to some of you, honestly I always try to be a country person at heart, but I guess maybe Ive been living in suburbia too long. I apologize for the rantings and ramblings, but these people just burn me up. I cant stand people that cant reason with common sense. My mom inherited the property and we built because we thought we were out in the country and the neighbors seemed like friendly people, but apparently suburbia has followed us to our retreat. We get so little use out of the place since dads been sick I wonder now if I should just put a sign up, in spite of the crappy market. My other option is to remove all "dwellings" from the property. This basically means anything that can be slept in, or that isnt "explictily for storage" and thats at the county inspectors discretion, including tool sheds with futons, with no electric and no running water. Its sitting on a gravel bed for a foundation, unfortuantely the 12' side has a 4' integrated porch (16' trusses). Does anyone on here know what a 16' wide load permit would cost from Forest County Pa to Cuyahoga County Ohio? (about 160 mi.) Surely less than $2500-3000 right? (honestly I have no idea, just throwing that out there). Thanks for listening. All the best - Owen
It's pretty simple actually. Just get the dimensions of the tank and dig your hole. If I understand your description, you're just setting an outhouse on a septic tank with no distribution system. The critical dimension will be your height so the outhouse sits at grade. What I usually do is get the floor of the hole close with the machine and then use 3/8 stone to make a level bed for the tank to sit on.
Do not forget the buddy factor. 400 dollars may buy more than his services. As in making all the inspections go smoothly. If the place as related as you claim. You may never be able to do the job to there satisfaction. But then again it is hard to hire anything done these days. They probably will never get the job done to your satisfaction.
What a difficult position to be in this is a catch 22 situation if you do it yourself it will never pass and if you get "THEM" will you not be happy ,as you say you could vacate the lot and make you mouth almighty neighbours happy.The cost of $400 dollars for bureaucrat grease is difficult to take but it may be cheaper in the long run,of course there is always the course of getting "THEM" on site and haggling with them; saying that if he doesn't give a competitive price that you will do it yourself. On that note I would photograph the site get what ever levels that are required ,the local code etc and continue this post gleaning every bit of information and terminology in preparation for your haggling secession.If he thinks you know what you are at and capable of doing the job their attitude may change.We are here to help if we can, but for myself who can only offer moral support as I am not familiar with the local systems of work and the codes required to be adhered too . I detest this little cosy arrangement even here, and have done small jobs just to scare the you know what out of these monopolized bureaucratic set ups ,as we have the financial and tech now how to browbeat them into submission . Even typing this has the heckles up on my neck Ask if we can help we will .
I would say , just have it installed . By the time you blow a hose , break window, need material, buy fuel , whatever else could happen to someone that isnt quite sure what he's doing . I think you will be glad you did. Good luck either way.
just my 2 cents but. it seems to me (if i understand you correctly) this guy is giving you a pretty good price, with only a 400$ mark up for his time and work. i dont know if the money is a big issue or not. but i would consult an attorney about it. (and not one from the town) i had a friend that had a problem on a vacation/hunting home he had in upstate new york. alot of small rural towns that have alot of "out of towners" like to take advatage of the people with second homes, with taxes and permits and what not. you may find that the law doesnt actully require anything. you have a nice storage shed and a camp site. next they will require full plumming inside your tent...
It's who you know. They may be in cahoots to run you out of there with a lowball offer. Just throwin it out there. Beat them at there own game. Do it yourself, don't cut corners, do it right the first time. The SEO won't have any choice but to pass it. WELCOME TO PENNSYLVANIA
That price doesn't sound out of line to me. $1035 for the tank $350 for the rental plus maybe $50 in fuel. (Is the gas station close, it may take a few trips if you don't have several cans) So were looking at less than $400 you could save doing it yourself. I assume this is a legit business, and you have to keep in mind a business has overhead, insurance, license fees, advertisment, ect. $350 for labor and company profit doesn't sound bad to me. Renting equipment puts you under the gun, on a small job like this one a extra day of rental and you might not save anything. What happens when you run into a problem and it sets you back? Also if you do rent you might look into renting a backhoe instead so you finish grade around the tank when your done backfilling. Around here you can rent a 14,000 pound hoe for about the same price as a 8,000 pound mini ex.
Hi Owen, The good old boy system is hard to swallow but if you want to keep the place it might still be the cheapest way to go because the inspector will surely pass his partners work. He probably gets a cut off the top for the recommendation anyhow. I would ask the contractor if he guarantees his work to pass the county specs.
Hi, Wow I appreciate all the sympathy and especially the advice. Personally Id rather just do it myself and just stick it to the man, just because thats kind how I’ve always been, but I still don’t know. Steve - Im glad to know its as simple as I had hoped, generally the soil is pretty sandy up there but with lots of head size rocks (and some a little bigger) scattered throughout. In my calculation I didnt factor any sand or pea gravel to level the floor of the hole, so theres another little nick out of the profit margin. Cobra - I wish it was that easy, I’ve tried every angle, but somehow in spite of the similarities, a porta-john is completely illegal for this situation. There’s a whole page in the literature pack they sent me with lots of big bold type that basically states that there are no grandfather clauses, no exceptions, nothing is sacred, do as we say or get out. And here’s something else I found interesting. Once they approve the permit for the “privy” we are not allowed to have piped water on the premises in any way, shape or form. This includes wells, cisterns, rain barrels and even just gutters with down spouts. The only thing were allowed to do is what we’ve been doing which is to bring in water, in our particular case in those blue 5 gal. Coleman water tanks from Dicks Sporting Goods. So much for ever truly getting established up there. The ONE exception to the above would be if we were to have a FULL septic system installed to handle gray water. I may just end up hiring this guy, as I still have to design and build the structure to their preposterous specifications. It has to be among other things, weather tight but ventilated, flytight, spider proof (actually stipulates in addition to flytight), self closing weather stripped door, minimum 50ft from any building served (kinda long walk on chilly spring and fall nights), a 4" vent stack that must also be flytight, have a 6" exterior cleanout (top of the tank outside the building, which even the tank caster thought was overkill). Also I have to find a local pumper and have him sign paperwork that I have to then file with the sewage district, granting him permission to be on my property even when Im not there. As well as sign documents that I am to submit the pumping receipts every time its done (like that’s gonna happen in my lifetime anyway). One other thing that I wanted to ask about is, the structure has to be secured to the top of the tank. I assume with either Tap-Cons or Redhead lag bolts. I just worry about a series of these in a line (sill plate) might cause the top to crack? I don’t know really Im just guessing. I do wonder sometimes though, how much it would cost to move the cabin itself elsewhere versus jumping through all these hoops. As I said its sitting on a gravel pad and the base framework is pressure treat 4x4, rather skid-like in construction. A 16-18ft deckover trailer and a winch is about all Id need to move it. Its just the fact that its 16 ft wide in both directions and that structurally there’s not much I can do about that. If I could cut the porch off and make it 12' Id be home free. But then too the only places I have to take it is back home (160 mi) or up to the camp of a friend of mine (85 mi. in the other direction) that’s about the same drive time because that’s all back roads. One other thing that I found more than a little irritating and this is no fault of their own as far as I know, but I received the letter from these morons less than two weeks before we were scheduled to bring my dad home from the nursing home, still on a ventilator and feed tube mind you. He is now happily residing in the family room. Such is my life. Again thank you, and I will keep reading if you guys keep posting. I do have some pics of the site, but they’re on my other computer, so perhaps this evening.
bobcatkid where is the property located?...township wise?
Barnett Twp, Hottelville to be to be precise
If your serious about moving the cabin it can be done. I worked at a house a couple years ago that was cut up into 4 different piecies and trucked to another location. Just cut it right down the middle at the ridge, 8' would be no problem to put on a trailer. Will they still fine you if you just remove the porta-john? For $1800 you could buy a small used travel trailer with a toilet.
forest county is in western pa. i live just east of there in Cameron County. What town is it in
Yes, you are right. I appreciate that. I didnt even see that until just now... and Im 22 y/o. Welcome to my life. Yes it is in Western PA. I feel really dumb now. Oh well, anyway, we are in the little burrough of Hottelville, which is about 10 or 12 miles South of Marienville, not far from Clarington on the Eastern edge of Cook Forest State Park. I have my suspicions that our proximity to the park may have something to do with the governments need to pry into our almost non existant vacation lives, but thats all just circumstantial.
...i think i wouold rent that excavator just to knock down the neighbors house
i agree. buy a camper if allowed and put it out there. use the original as a storage and smokehouse.
I wish it were that simple. I really do. They are just very unreasonable people. The camper thing is not legal because it doesnt directly address sewage relating to the existing building. And apparently according to their rules even if the sole structure on the property is a travel trailer, if it doesnt move for two weeks or more then legally it has to have a "sewage permit" as well. Even if you take it to the state park dump station, even if you never have to empty the black water holding tank in the state of Pennsylvania you still have to have a permit. Which by the way, I was looking through their papers they sent me, and its no longer $450 but as of Aug. 1, nearly $800, just for the permit. After a family discussion, weve decided that we all feel betrayed by whichever neighbor called the county. Our property is part of a subdivided farm that was sold off to pay the owners medical bills back in the 70's. Over the years the various parcels have been bought and sold and traded, the result being a kind of hodge-podge of cabins, park model and travel trailers on these parcels that range now from 1/2 to about 3 acres, ours being 1.5. Out of maybe 2 or 3 dozen camps that have been built on this farm theres one and Id heard rumor of a second person that lives up there full time, but neither of their homes are anywhere near our cabin. Imagine if you took a campground, a trailer park, and a hunting camp and threw them in a blender, I suppose this might be about what you'd come out with. Weve done everything possible to be friendly neighbors, we keep the place tidy, were hardly ever up there anyway, I really dont know what we possibly could have done to tick anybody off. Everyone that we've met has been outwardly friendly and hospitable. So after all this effort, we really kind of feel betrayed that someone couldnt leave well enough alone. Even if we had the money I just dont think Id want to get fully established up there (eg. bigger cabin, well, full septic, etc.) anymore. If whoever this was cant leave well enough alone about something like this, then what next? I live in suburbia, I DO NOT want to vacation there. Unfortunately this leaves me with one choice. I have devised a way to dismantle the cabin into several pieces, amounting to a "panelized" kit of sorts that can then be stacked on a car hauler trailer and brought home. Hopefully to be reassembled once we find someplace that we'd rather vacation. My plan so far is as follows. Remove the end rafters with the siding still intact. It is a tongue and groove cedar siding that costs very dearly so I want to leave it intact as much as possible. Next Im planning on systematically removing the plate connectors on the remaining trusses and then lowering the "roof panels" from the ridgeline using bottle jacks. Once I have those down and off the walls, then it just a matter of disconnecting the walls from the floor and eachother, stablizing the doorways with additional 2x4s. Then all that would be left is the floor panel which after removing the center floorboard, the 4x4 joists would be cut so that it too would be able to be loaded on the trailer. It was built from scratch by two guys in 1 day. I think that 2 to 3 guys should be able to accomplish this is 2 days or less. I really wish it didnt have to come to this, but we just feel that this is a clear cut case of "screw the out-of-towners". Ironically though the people that ratted on us are more than likely out of towners themselves. The whole situation has left us with a bitter taste, even my mom whos family started to vacation in the area when she was 9 years old. I may yet change my mind, but I am quickly running out of time, and warm weather to do this. I will keep this thread posted as things progress.
They will probably screw you for a demolition permit now..... Do you have some access to legal advice in PA. Around here I have challenged the City Council on a number of issues (that they have no authority to try and enforce) and they do some serious back pedalling. You have to remember that often you are dealing with the Butcher, the baker, the candlestickmaker and all their friends. By-Laws often do not hold up when you look at state laws. Rather than move out I think I would rather explore other options, if you can.
Don't be so quick to blame the neighbors. With so many towns going broke they are looking for lots of creative ways to supplement their budgets. Around here they've gone to using aerial photography to see if you have built anything without a permit, then come for the $. Could be that somebody in town remembers those camps and started digging for ways to bring in funds.
The state DER has been pushing this real hard also. That is one of the reasons so many Amish have moved across the border to NY in the last few years. They have one fella in jail now for not complying at an Amish school. My local town just started making them put in tanks for any new construction including schools. They started this on cabins on leased ground about 8 years ago. It is one of the ploys to get rid of cabins on state forest ground even if they have been there 50-80 years. After you put in the tank you need it pumped once a year and a record of it to keep the camp. Crazy environmentalist overkill if you ask me.
bill - ya got that right. In my case there wont be anything to pump next year, or the year after, or even 10 years from now. Absolutley rediculous. Im sorry to hear its like this elsewhere. Thats what I was afraid of, and also why I think Ive made up my mind to just pack up my little cabin and go home. I just cant afford to play hardball. All we wanted was a little something to go to, to get away when we could. Not a second house to have to take care of. Squizzy - when I was originally intending to try to comply with their preposterous rules, we found out that in order to not have "replacement site testing" done (also offered by previoulsy mentioned contractor) we had to have our two parcels legally combined, previously 0.9 acre and 0.45 acre (when the farm was divided in the 70's, the owners alcoholic son was the one who took care of the surveying). It was supposedly 1/2 acre parcels when it was cut up but that was before the tax office got ahold of the measurement shortly thereafter. So we has the two parcels combined to equal more than 1 acre and thereby skirt the site testing.... Anyway back to my story, the lawyer that we had do the writing and filing for that, mentioned to my mom that the laws are rather squirrly around there and she'd heard an awful lot of stories like ours recently. I just dont want to deal with it anymore. I dont appreciate being forced to do anything, especially if its this seemingly unnecessary. And so thats why were so disgusted that were just going to be done with it. Pick up my ball (cabin) and go home.