Hello! I was reading afew of all the working brochures I have on my computer the other day and in the brochure of the Bucyrus 795 mining shovel and I noticed something I havent seen before.. In the list of the machines benefits it says this: Has anyone some more info on this? I have started a thread about the new Komatsu 960E truck. Could it be one of the new generation trucks?
500 ton trucks saw a Komatsu 960 and i believe it was only a 360 ton truck. Cat mechanic told me cat will come out with an 500 ton AC drive truck as soon as they develop tires that would hold up
Interesting! Thanks for the info!! A 500ton truck must be huge!!!
Don't hold your breath on this one. It is already common knowledge Cat is working on an A/C truck, but 500 tons is a stretch. Tires have always been a limiting factor for any truck. The largest mine trucks (without payload indicators) that are spot checked for weight consistently weigh in with 400-440 ton loads, despite truck ratings of 350-380. The reason the trucks are rated lower? Tires. Tire manufacturers do not want to invest in the research and infrastructure to make tires capable of greater loads, due to the risk involved with periods of downtime in the truck industry (that's a lot of money sitting there not making tires). The point? Larger trucks today are capable or nearly capable of handling 400+ tons. Tires are not. I do not believe the market will see a truck, electrical or mechanical, RATED for 500 tons until heavy equipment manufacturers pony up and subsidize the tire technology.
Activeorpassive, You have supplied some good info and made some good points in this post and others :thumbsup . May I go as far as to ask what line of work you're in?
Hmm Cats HQ is in Illinois
Hmmmmm.......
Here's a couple of pics of the A/C Drive 797 Test Truck, I believe it's due for release at MinExpo next year, The word around is an electric or mechanical option for 793 & 797 trucks, and a model in between the two perhaps? Be interesting to see!
Is there a chance that this mystery is starting to clear up:beatsme Stayed tuned....
Consistently overloaded trucks also have a big long term impact on frames, suspensions and braking systems activeorpasssive...
Some more examples....
Definitely not Cat HQ (i.e. Peoria)... my guess is that he or she works in Decatur. But what happened to the 797? poor kitty...
Cat D7_97 Hybrid Well Tiger I thought that it was Cat's new hybrid mining truck/haul road bulldozer... the wheels are meant to come off aren't they?
That one with the split frame must have backed in to one of those Canadian driveways we've heard about!:falldownlaugh
My guess is Tigerotor is roughly 85 miles away from being correct.
I wouldn't disagree with that so I'll rephrase to say "ONE of the reasons trucks are rated lower..."
:lmao :lmao
Cat Detachable wheels Hi, Wulf, Cat Dr and Activeorpassive. I think it is a pretty safe bet that those front wheels didn't come off like that because of tyres. My guess is a serious mechanical failure that was left neglected and untreated for some little time. This same mechanical failure results in many unfortunte incidents around mining and construction sites. For such an apparently insignificant thing, it can have absolutely disastrous consequences. I'm speaking of the loose nut holding the steering wheel. Now, how to remedy this situation. I think the 'paymaster's shotgun' is the ONLY remedy in some cases. In others, more rigourous and on-going training may help. Better supervision is also needed and in many cases company policy needs to change, sometimes drastically. F'rinstance, I know of a quarry near here where there is a grade of around 12% from the upper levels to the crusher feeder. Company dump truck drivers are permitted to descend this grade in 32 ton capacity dump trucks loaded to 40 tons at up to around 35 kilometres per hour, approximately 21 miles per hour. If there is some long-term wisdom in that policy, it escapes me. I might add that the dump truck manufacturer has permitted 40 ton loading without voiding warranty but recommended a maximum speed down that grade of 30 kilometres per hour - about 17-18 miles per hour - with the trucks loaded to 40 tons and I'll bet that sometimes they are exceeding 40 kmh - about 25 mph. And the drivers tell me that the retarders in those trucks will overheat trying to keep them down to 30 kmh on that grade. Go figure. I'd have thought a lower gear selected at the top of the grade might have had some beneficial effect, say about second gear and 15 kmh. I know it works for me. But I'm only a mug plant operator. So, any suggestions????????
Really... very interesting. AB, then, and Dozerboy was spot on the first time? If you have time, do you want to chat sometime? Or perhaps you already know who I am. gmnstrunr37[at@at]yahoo[.dot.]com (normal symbols in place of the brackets)
Overloaded trucks is probably a very common thing in mines. Time is money and the more mountain you move in less time the more money you make. Although if you look at the maintenance costs for the machines they probably wont make that much more money. I have never had anything to do with mining/quarry equipment but I have some experience in the heavy duty steel mill machines. In our local steel mill they use the German Mafi MT45 tractors and Scheuerle trailers rated to load about 150-180 metric tons. They load about 200-210 metric tons on the trailers from time to time and drive in a speed of about 30-40km/h. In German steel mills they drive max 15km/h and they have much less maintenance costs. Over one summer they spended some 500.000-600.000SEK on tiers for the trailers only... (that is about 70.500-85.000USD)
The mystery is solved!!!!:notworthy Yes, I work for Big Yellow, but try not to hold it against me too much. I am in LC, not AB. I write and deliver machine electronics training for technicians and dealer instructors. More details later.
Interesting! I guess we were both right -- me in saying that not at headquarters; he in that it was Peoria. We probably haven't met, then -- I only know of two people in LC. In case my posts don't reveal it, I'm a pretty big Cat guy... Enjoy the weather -- 71 degrees on Tuesday! Sheesh.
:lmao That was great. Is it always this hard to get answers outta the Cat folks? :wink2 I see most of your posts were in grader threads. Are you familiar with the electronics on other types of equipment or just specialise in graders? Either way, its good to see you on the forum as I'm sure I'm not the only one thats not the greatest when it comes to the electronics portion of equipment. :drinkup
It's not always difficult to get answers out of us Cat guys... I don't specialize in Graders, but I have recently been working on the training package for dealer technicians. I've been working closely with the instructor to finalize the electronics and controls portion of the training. My primary responsibility is fundamental machine electronics. I train technicians and dealer instructors how to troubleshoot Caterpillar electronic systems, regardless of application. In April I will start working on the training package for the electrical/electronic system of Caterpillar's new electric drive truck (don't ask any questions about it, I'm still not allowed to discuss details). So there you have it! That's the skinny on activeorpassive. I believe this is a great site, no matter your brand loyalty or affiliation. I have found most of the threads and discussions very insightful, and I look forward to some great discussions with the HEF community. Regards, activeorpassive
Same here. Thanks for the info. :drinkup
Well going down grades hasn't been much of a problem in my experience, but I have seen a lot of stress and strain put on frames and drivelines by a mixture of poor roads and melonheads behind the wheel, at a site i previously worked at it was realtively new, with a lot of clay and red soil, (1 side of the pit was a lake edge) and the haul roads where nothing short of atrocious, absolutely no sheeting at all, just clay, which after having fully loaded 789's running over them made a supercross track, and instead of slowing down, operators put there own safety aside and tossed any common sense out the window, and just held the trucks flat to try and skip over them, and if it rained, those trucks where Dirt Taxi's on Ice! I approached the production bosses and maintenance bosses and expressed my concerns about the frames and the road conditions and was told to tell my story walking, I'm nothing but a useless young bloke, they got all the experience, they know what they're doing! Well after seeing daylight under the front tyres on a loaded 789 and seeing the load jump up a good metre I knew it wouldn't be long till they were proven wrong. I'd had enough and moved to greener pastures, but still remain mates with many people on site, and have since found that 3 trucks which are just coming up towards 8000 hrs old have been in for major chassis repairs, and they've done 2 diffs and 3 or 4 final drives. How someone hasn't been seriously injured out there is beyond me (Lot of back claims but I hear) Funnily enough the young blokes idea of building proper roads and teaching the operators to look after machines wasn't such a bad idea after all, and has been adopted on site! Bascially what I'm dribling is that haul road condition, mixed with common sense from operators, and quality maintenance would save a god awful lot of these pics turning up on the net! A loaded haul truck bounding along flat biscuit is a lot of weight, eventually, somethings gotta give Cheers
Looking forward to rattling your brain activeorpassive, I work as a diesel fitter for the Local Yella Fella in QLD, Australia, hope to share some info with you and maybe I might be able to teach you something too! Cheers
Agree 100% Cat Dr. You likely know that most manufacturers or dealers may provide guaranteed availability, guaranteed hourly/monthly/yearly operating costs and its the manufacturer or dealer that ends up picking up both the pieces and the tab by #1 paying for the repairs and #2 paying penalties because the machines didn't achieve their 9*% availability. As activeorpassive works in vehicle electronics he can tell you that vehicle productivity, speed, payload, acceleration, decellaration, suspension pressure (how hard and high the vehicle is bouncing), fuel consumption etc etc.can be monitored remotely if the customer agrees to the dealer or manufacturer monitoring their units. This should help to eliminate the abuse from the melonheads and the operations that tolerate vehicle abuse
Going Downhill - - - FAST Hi, Cat Dr. Quote: "Well going down grades hasn't been much of a problem in my experience," Unquote. Let's hope you never have to see - or salvage - the wreckage, human and mechanical, from a serious 'going downhill too fast' incident. It can be distinctly UNPRETTY. You might get away with it 999 times out of a 1,000, maybe even more, but it's that ONE time when something comes unstuck that is the reason why you ought to be careful EVERY time. Where I currently work, we have one reasonably steep grade, about 12% and only about 80 metres long to a right-angled left hand bend from which point the grade slowly lessens over the next 80-90 metres until it is almost flat. There is a 15 kilometre per hour (10mph) speed limit on the first part of this grade down to the bend. One morning, a group of dump truck drivers were complaining about this speed limit. That afternoon, one of the complainers had a major steering failure at about 8 kph (5 mph) on flat ground about 30 seconds after coming down that same grade. The cause of that failure was the mounting eye breaking off the cylinder end of one steering ram. I'll leave it to your imagination to visualise what MIGHT have happened if that steering failure had occurred while he was descending that grade at 30 or 40 kph instead of 15 kph. And that failure may very well have happened on that grade if the steering had been subjected to the extra stress of having to take the bend at a higher speed. I can TELL you what happened the previous time someone came down that grade too fast in a loaded dump truck. The truck mounted the (inadequate) safety berm on the side of the road 2/3 of the way around the bend and ended up in the gully 6 metres (20 feet) below the road, flat on its back, with the neatest-dumped load of gravel you will never see underneath it. The regular driver and the 'new recruit' that he was checking out and who was driving at the time were both wearing seat belts and the worst injury they got was when they let their seat belts go and landed on their pointy little heads on the ceiling of the cab. The bloke who runs the other company dump truck where I work has a habit of running with the front wheel brakes ENGAGED insted of locked out. He also has a habit of making some rather long slide marks here and there in his travels. I'm just waiting for the time he makes one of these long slide marks right over a bank 'cos his front wheels are locked up and he has no steering. You can run out of brakes in one of these dump trucks and still have half a chance IF you can steer it. If your steering fails as well as your brakes or if you have no steering because your front brakes are locked on as well as your rear brakes, you have very little chance, if any at all. JUst my 0.02.
With as many pictures as I've seen here on the internet, I think Cat deserves a world of credit for being able to build them faster than your guys can destroy them!
Melonheads This melonhead should be telling his story walking... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqqdLGR3ih8
Yeah what I interpreted was that you were speaking about loaded trucks hauling downhill, and what I meant was that in my experience loaded trucks going down ramps wasn't an issue, been all uphill hauling (except for night shift when truckies forget to dump and turn up back at the digger with a load on the back still, and wonder why the brakes were getting hot on the way down!) So sorry if I caused confusion Yeah going too quick downhill can be an issue loaded or empty, i seen two 793's collide when one lost control going too quick in the wet, wrote one truck off and caused near a million dollars of damage to the frame to the loaded truck it hit, luckily both operators walked away but could have been much worse! A lot comes down to training and policing of how people drive too, and of course common sense. At that same site I had my scariest ever experience in a dump truck, when a new operator called up and said her brakes were getting hot going into the pit, i jumped up with her (not being sexist, seen bad blokes behind the wheel too) and told her to take me for a lap, and she had me having kittens in the passenger seat, just flat out down the ramp till she got to one of the four hairpin turns, hard on the retarder lever and locked up the wheels, then flat out again (6th gear max chickens mind you!) and hard on the brakes again, after showing her how to use the auto retarder and telling her to knock it back to 4th, problem solved, but she said as she had only been on her own for a week, she'd never been shown! quality training! I'm mates with a lot of operators who are good at what they do, but also know a lot of steering wheel attendants, who just sit and steer. It might seem easy but one wrong move and you or someone else could be dead in an instant. Cheers
Speak softly of that about which you know nothing. Hi, Wulf. Quote: "This melonhead should be telling his story walking..." Unquote. Speak softly of that about which you know nothing. Unless I miss my guess, that video clip is part of a video made of a demonstration to show people what happens when a large dump truck runs over a light vehicle. This video, if it is the same one and it sure looks like it, was shot at a major mine here in Queensland, Australia as a training video. It has been widely used by several mines and a couple of government departments involved in training mine workers too. So the 'melonhead' driving that truck was only following orders.
I could tell that it was staged but I wanted to use Cat Dr's phrase 'melonhead' and 'tell the story walking' in the same sentence 'cause I thought they were really really cute.
Hello everybody . This is my first post and while I am in the proccess of reading all the other threads and correspodence I was just wondering if I could ask if it's true that CAT are coming out with a new version of the CAT797/b which is called the 797F and if it will be much different to the current 797s , and when the first pictures might be released?. Many thanks, and I'd just like to add that my main passion is indeed the huge mining machines!.
Welcome to HEF Thorleif! :drinkup I have heard talk of a new version but thats it.
Thankyou for the welcome and info Countryboy . I guess I'll just have to wait and see .
100th 797 in Western Canada Not sure how many there are in the rest of the world guys but Caterpillar dealer Finning in Western Canada just delivered its 100th 797... at about 6M a piece thats C$600,000,000 which is around US$510,000,000. http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald...=8f470054-3d41-4786-a8f6-b11cda880827&k=72180 Most of these will be in the oilsands in Northern Alberta,I would think that their payload and productivity would be monitored and managed remotely through a wireless mine management system.
Yes, the oil sands are indeed booming and are equally fascinating for seeing the massive mining machines at work. Does anybody here on the forum work in the Canadian oil sands or Australian mines?. In particular I'd be keen to hear from you if you are around some of the larger mining machines such as the Liebherr T282b, Cat 797b, Terex MT4400ac and the large mining excavators. If so, would you be willing to contact me via pm?. Many thanks for any time and help you can give me .
I heard through the grapevine that an F series 797 is on the cards, prob got something to do with this electric drive setup they're testing, and theres talk of a new model of truck to sit betwenn the 793 and 797 (100 tonne difference between them) Yeah thorleif, I had a little bit of exposure to 797's, but mainly 793's & 789's as far as trucks go, and a fair bit on D10 & D11 tractors (N, R & T's), 994 loaders 24 & 16H graders etc.
I have started to put away some money every month... gonna get myself the 7th RH400! There is a sandbox outside my house.. thought I was gonna use it there...
Thanks Cat Dr. yes, it sounds like there could be something just over the horizon but maybe time will tell. The new model between the 973 and 797 sounds very interesting and I wonder if CAT will tweak/revamp the overall style of their dump trucks with these new models. @MetalDragonboy, can I come and have a shot of your RH400 when you get it?. You may have to throw me out of your sandbox if you want to get it back though!.
Wulf, if you look closely in the article, all of these trucks are in the Oilsands. Where abouts in Canada are you? Brian
They run them in the Kalgoorie super pit in austrailia too, and theres some in chile as well, and i think thers a few in powder river basin.
Cat 797's Hi, Folks. Some coal mines in Queensland are getting them too. I've heard that Moura has about 10 up and running and more on the way.
797's The mine I work at has 4 797's and i believe 62 793's, and our sister mine has a couple 797's as well not sure if anyother mines in the PRB have any
I got to tour the Cat plant at Decatur nearly a year ago, and they said at that time the worldwide population of 797 trucks was over 300 (I forget the exact #, I slept since then) and that they are producing an average of one truck per week. At that time, they had orders in for over 100 additional trucks, so a 2 year waiting list. Also, they have implemented a policy of not taking orders for less than 8 trucks at a location, unless there is already 797s working onsite, due to what it takes to support them. When they were new to the market, many places had small numbers, like 2, and that is discouraged now because they do not match well with th 240 ton trucks. I think all operations that only had a small number of trucks sold theirs, with most going to the oilsands operations. That is where 1/3 of the total population works.
That's pretty good penetration in its relatively recent life because I recall when the 797 was introduced they had major problems with the 3524 engines where 'the two V-twelves' are connected.... must be fixed by now. Folks were also debating the maintenance costs in comparison with the AC drive alternatives due to the huge volume of oil in the transmission and axles coupled with short service intervals. Anyone know the refill oil volumes and PM time... Cat Dr?
This was from the Cat site: Service Refill Capacities Fuel Tank 1800 gal 6814 L Cooling System 315 gal 1194 L Crankcase 110 gal 417 L Differentials and Final Drives 185.18 gal 701 L Steering Tank 62 gal 235 L Steering System (Includes Tank) 114 gal 432 L Brake/Hoist Hydraulic Tank 263 gal 996 L Brake/Hoist System (Includes Tank) 486 gal 1842 L Torque Converter/Transmission Sump 50 gal 190 L Torque Converter/Transmission System (Includes Sump) 166 gal
In response to Deas Dawson(moura) have about 20 up and running they hopr to all 32 up by august so far they have proved to be pretty good only minor problems so far which should be expected with a machine this size
Thats some oil.
1800 gallon fuel tank, anyone care to elaborate as to how they keep fuel in these things?
Ben46a, I don't belive they run 797s at Kalgoorlie. If I am not mistaken, they run 793s. Wulf, You are right on that one, the 3524 was not one of Cat's most reliable engines to put it mildly. I know over time they did work on fixing a lot of the issues, but I still wouldn't count them in the best engine category by any means. CascadeScaper, I'm not sure I follow exactly what you mean by elaborating how they keep fuel in them. I'd be happy to elaborate, but there isn't much to it. When the trucks get low on fuel, they drive to the lube module where they get filled back up. The tanks at the lube module at our mine hold around 10,000 gallons and they have a tandem axle fuel truck that runs back and forth from the fuel depot to the lube module and keeps the tank full. Brian
Hahahahha ointlaugh I think he means where on the truck they have room for that much fuel. If it's like on 777s, the fuel tank is on the right side under the box between the front and rear wheels. the other side is hyd. oil. check this link out. http://cmms.cat.com/cmms/servlet/cat.dcs.cmms.servlet.DynamicImageServlet?imageid=C198751&imageType=9
How Do They Keep Fuel In These Things???????? Hi, Cascadescaper. I'm no expert but I think they have a big hollow steel tank thingy somewhere on the machine that holds fuel, at least for a little while when the engine isn't running but once you actually start the engine, it seems to suck the fuel right out of the tank thingy and then you have to fill the tank thingy again, preferably before it gets completely empty 'cos if it gets completely empty the engine sucks air and stops and the mechanics/fitters get all agro and start claiming that you are causing them extra work and that you are a mug for letting it get completely empty and the management gets all agro 'cos the machine isn't doing any work any more and the accountants start getting all itchy too 'cos the dollar flow stops and the shareholders then get p****d off 'cos their dividends drop and then the sharemarket gets all antsy and the share prices start falling and the media gets in on the act and starts claiming that there is another share market crash and before you know it we have a full-blown recession on our hands. SO KEEP THE D**N TANK TOPPED UP.
HOLY
797b I know that everyone in the Mining industry has been hurt by the OTR Tire shortage. Here in our mine it had really put a hault on the use of our 797B's. But we found a Tire company in the States call Midwest Global Tire that has new 59/80R63 General Tires in stock. Just thought I would pass that information on if any of you are in the same situation that we are.
go for gold deas LOL
What is the run time for fuel on those big trucks? Can you go four or five tanks before shutting down for other lube and filters? In most powered equipment, you should use a tank of gas a day operating.... Just curious.....
Welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums MGT! :drinkup
Another issue to take into consideration is transportation of a 500 ton truck tire. Tires cannot be broken down into pieces and then welded together like everything else on the truck. So if the tires for the truck are to large for the roads leading to the mine, how do you get them there?
We run 789's and a new rebuilt 793. The standing rule in our mine is second gear downhill loaded. Our grades range from 10% to 12%. We had one guy back in 1993 that used to run 4th gear downhill loaded, he sheared the left final drive in half, and the tire passed him going to the stockpile. Heaviest load I ever personaly hauled was 420 tons in a 930E Komatsu. The muck was so heavy the load didn't even stack up to the bed rails. Iron pyrite. In my expierience the electric trucks could handle the heavy payloads at 12 to 15 mph on 10%. I would love to get a crack at a 793 or 797 electric drive.
Liebherr is moving forward by reducing the truck weight allowing more payload on existing tires. The TI274 For Example (290 metric tonnes/320 short tons on 57" Rubber) http://www.liebherr.com/lh/en/5021_104413.asp I think we will see new truck designs breaking the 500Ton mark using the existing 63" Rubber before we see a bigger tire size.
The above comments make me feel so small. In the mid-1970s I worked as a supervisor in Telfer Gold mine, West Australia for a mining contractor named Quest Mining and Exploration. (Long ago gone broke) Our trucks were 6 of Cat 773 and six Terex, same size. When I started on site we had no speed limits (no downgrades, only upgrades from the pit and then flat running until the waste dump) and couldn't stop the tyre separation. I reduced the speed limit to 30mph, 50kph and that problem dissappeared. The trucks were loaded by Clark 475B with 13m bucket. Three buckets and they were gone and load weights were usually OK when Wigmores (Cat agents) weighed them. We didn't try and overload due to the long lead. I must agree that training of the nut behind the wheel is most important. Just before I started, a girl who had been employed in Perth, laid an empty 773 on its side. When Quest tried to claim insurance for the minor damage, we found out she didn't even have a car licence!!!!!! Nice one........C ya .....Ray
GeeVee. The fuel tanks on the 797s and other big trucks will usualy only power the truck for 14 hrs or so The 797F will have the 20/C175 engine which is one 20 cylinder engine, not two 12s connected. One possibility for 540 tonne trucks would be like the Belaz 540 ton truck design. 4 front wheels and 4 at the back on an articulated chassis. I dont think we will see any trucks bigger than 400 tonne until the population of 400 tonne trucks increases to the point where 400 tonne trucks are the norm, like 240 tonne truck are now. As the easy gold, iron ore, coal, whatever is already being mined, mines will get deeper and bigger to get to the bigger quantities of low grade ore which up until now have been uneconomical to mine. We will start to see more mines the size of Freeort, Escondida etc. Mines like the Olympic dam expansion open cut will be more common place and these will create a market for 500+ tonne trucks. Instead of these maga mines running 100+ x 400 tonne trucks, they would start running maybe 70 x 540 tonne truck for example. Maybe in 5-10 years we would start to see them.
what do you do when that happens? can you repair the frame or do you just part the truck out. any pics of how you work on these monster? those are some IMPRESSIVE jack stands! more info!!
New Caterpillar trucks Introduced at the Mine Expo last week, some info: New diesel engines being used The 175 series in various sizes in mechanical drive and electric models. 797F gets a new 175 series engine 795F AC 340 ton model Electric Drive only (175 series engine) 773F Mech drive or 773F AC Electric drive ( 175 series engines) Other models improved
I'm afraid you have the model numbers of the last truck a bit wrong. It's the 793F and 793F AC, the 773 is a much smaller truck.....much smaller. Brian
Yeah .... V20, V16 and V12 variants. Smallest Truck would be the 785.
Correction You are right of course, Typed in a 7 instead of a 9. Thanks for correcting my typeing error.
I could never understand why they spend so much money trucking material out of pits . What is the reason they don't use bucket elevators and conveyers to lift the material out of the pit and to the hoppers ?
surprisingly enough, its cheaper using trucks and shovels. When the oil sands operations switched from bucket wheels to shovels their cost went down 5 bucks a barrel roughly. So much infracstructure and labour required to maintain and operate a bucket wheel, and conveyor downtime costing so much makes it not worthwhile to use a bucketwheel.
One thing to think of is this. With a truck spread, and multiple loading tools, be they loaders, shovels, or whetever else, if any one piece breaks down, you only lose a small percentage of total production. With a conveyor system, when any 1 part goes down, the entire production ability is lost. Also, with mobile equipment, there is flexibility in the system. If conditions become poor in one area, it is no problem to move to another location. With a belt system, you are stuck where it is untill a new line is constructed, which needs much advance notice. With trucks, you can have spare capacity to cover downtime. Say your operation requires 20 trucks, and you know historically that your trucks average 90% availability, then you have 22 trucks onsite, because you know at any given time an average of 2 will be down for service or repair. With the shovels, you can have a loader as a back-up. In any case, you will not loose out completely. It is all different with a beltline. I know they are supposed to be reliable, but in the real world, I have seen many more problems due to the beltline than the trucking operation, due to the flexibility of trucks to overcome small setbacks without downing the entire operation. I haul material at the end of a beltline, and I am ready everyday due to having spares, but if the belt goes down, I am sitting till it is repaired.
Production loss due to a conveyor, bucketwheel or dragline going down was part of the issue and reason we changed over, but another major factor was the systems inability to selectively mine the deposit. With the draglines, if there was a pocket of rejects or low grade ore in the middle of the deposit, it pretty much had to be dug up and sent to the plant to be processed. That made it more expensive to get the oil out by a fair margin. Brian
Good answers , i get smarter every day .
Don't hold your breath on this one. It is already common knowledge Cat is working on an A/C truck, but 500 tons is a stretch. - activeorpassive A little more about that here: http://enr.ecnext.com/coms2/article_necoar080924d . Of course, it isn't a 500 tones one.
This looks all very theoretical and from drawings but the concept is interesting. http://www.etftrucks.nl/Products/
Their CEO was keeping us updated on those for a while...I'll go bump up the thread if I can find it.
During the F series haul truck meeting at MINExpo in Las Vegas back in September, a senior Caterpillar engineer stated that by 2010, the next serious product line update target, they will offer a truck in the 480+ ton range. 500 ton trucks will happen and not that far down the road. - Chris
EFT - Don't hold your breath. Hi, Folks. Me, I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for anything from The Emirates Truck Factory. About the only thing that I can see that has changed on their web site since I first looked at it is that they have added the scraper concept. As mentioned above, we did useta git 'sorta' regular updates from EFT but the silence has been pretty deafening that last 12 months or so. Just my 0.02.
I wonder if we'll ever seen any deviation in production model trucks from the traditional "two axle, six tire" rigid rear dump truck designs?
By the way, does anyone here think the recent developments regarding CAT and electric drive trucks could mean a move away by them from their traditional reliance on mechanical drives?
As far as 500 tonnes, The 797s up north here in the oil sands see that pretty regularly, Highest overload ive seen on VIMS was 597 tons.
ben46a, are you still up in Fort Mac? I've heard it's been tough times up there. I hope for it to pick up, I'd like to work up there.
Wouldn't that eat up frame life not to mention excessive tire wear? Heck, at that level of overload, wouldn't the dump body itself be damaged?
Odds are that is an incorrect reading on the scale board. The trucks will go into overload at a much lower weight than that, and as such will not shift gears, just stay locked in a low gear and get dumped in the pit where they were loaded. Brian
Brian, Im not going to dissagree there, I know we calibrate them when we send them out and who knows how often Theyre done after that. Im just going by What were reading on the tattle tales. Kicks them into 2nd gear until they dump them off. Skiibum.. Yeah i still work up there, home on days off right now. I have no worries as theres plenty of work for heavy equipment mechanics right now. As far as welders and operators i dont know.
By the way, does anyone here think the recent developments regarding CAT and electric drive trucks could mean a move away by them from their traditional reliance on mechanical drives? - Dayton3 Personally I see it rather as a "proving" step by Cat rather then a definite move towards electric drive haul trucks. Sort of "we know to make them too" thing.:naughty Given the many decades of staying true to what they know best (i.e. mechanical drive), I think they will continue to do that.
Doesn't the initial load reading on a truck go way high because the force of the load hitting the dump body is measured as well? I recall the book "Giant Caterpillar" I think it was. It showed a 797 with the load indicator reading 447 tons but the author stated that a few seconds later the indicator dropped back to 386 tons.
Yes and no, the initial load rating may be higher sometimes, but not because of the impact of loading transferring an abnormally high reading to the scales. Typically, the trucks will reweigh once they are moving to correct for errors. The errors are usually caused by the truck not being level when loaded. If the truck is sitting with one set of tires on a lump, or up on a tail, the force read by the sensors is not accurate, and usually reads way high. Once the truck is rolling, the system reweighs itself since it can average the weight of the payload a bit more accurately. Typically, I think it's a 20% overload that can be accepted by the system before it is considered an overload where it goes into alarm. Brian
I wonder what the CAT designation for their 480 ton truck will be? 799? If so I would suggest that the 799B will be an upgrade to "500 tons plus" within a few years. Personally, I think after the 500 ton capacity is broken that it will be at least two decades before there is a significant size increase. Probably in the 2030 or later time frame. Depending on the mining industry of course.
I was always told that what was limiting the making of a bigger truck was that it was the size of the tires that would be needed.They can make them but they aren't able to transport them due to the size.
I am wondering what effect the slow down in the oil industry will have on development of a 500 ton truck since such a large precent of the 797's and others end up in fort crack.:drinkup
Yeah buddy, with over 200 797s up here im sure any 500 t development will be pushed back till things pick up or even out a bit.
I"m no expert on these things besides my reading, but one of the mining websites mentioned the possibility of 1,000 ton capacity trucks someday even. I assume you would need at least a 200 ton capacity loading shovel to match to such vehicles to make a fleet of them economical to operate (and how large would a 200 ton capacity loading shovel be? 4,000 tons?). But anyway, I was wondering. Everyone says tires are the main drag on superlarge vehicle development because tires cannot be broken into components for transport to a site and reassembled. Thus there is a practical upper limit to the diameter tires that can be made. But like I said I was wondering. Could you produce tires which could handle much heavier loads by increasing the width of the tires instead of increasing their diameters? A 1,000 ton capacity rear dump truck...... Is there enough coal left in America and tar sand left in Canada to require such a vehicle say around the year 2050?
In the way of larger tires, I remember one of the manufacturers talking about a different approach to getting tires to mine sites. The basic idea was to make the tire making machinery modular, and ship it to the mine site, then make a large batch of tires, and move it to the next mine site. Not sure how they would handle the issues of keeping tings as clean as they need to be for quality control, but I'm sure that would be a rather minor issue should they take on a project like that. As for whether there will be enough oil sand or coal left in 40 years to warrant a truck that large, I would say yes. But I think you will find with changing technology, we may head in a different direction. I also don't think you will see trucks much larger than the current offerings in the oil sands. We might get to 500, but the ground conditions would make it hard to get anything much larger to actually move around......unless.....they were to come up with something like......rubber tracks....hmmmm. Brian
I personally think the sizes of the mining trucks will top out in the 540-600 ton capacity range. Because that would mean super loading shoves such as the Bucyrus 795 would be able to load such trucks (assuming 135-150 ton dipper capacities) in four passes. And already the 400 ton capacity trucks in the oil sands are running into pressure wave problems during the summer months.
By pressure wave, I assume you are referring to rolling resistance. It's not just the 400 tonners that have problems, heck, even pickups have to deal with it. All of the haul trucks have issues dealing with the rolling resistance, and it's not just in the summer. Brian
I thought when the ground was frozen solid it was less of an issue.
600+ton moves frost surprisingly easily......
The ground isn't really frozen solid. There is enough heat coming off the deposit that, although there is frost, and it can be thick, it is always warm underneath and therefore not frozen. Look at ice, it flexes and moves as weight is applied on top of it, this stuff is similar in that aspect. Like Ben said, 600 tons moves frost pretty easily too. Brian
And to think buying a set of tires for a 797 is scary enough
This has already been done, the current 63" tires on the market are wide base. I have been designing the wheels for these large truck for years and I don't see any bigger tires coming out any time soon. If the 500+ ton mark is broken I think it will be a truck with the same GVW as the current ultra class, but using newer materials and frame designs to reduce the truck weight. Every lbs you can remove from the truck is another lbs of dirt you can add to the back.
^I guess the 1,000 tonners that some have suggested are probably out of the question then.
The 500 ton class will be broken someday. I don't see it being done as Lunaticfreak suggests though. The more weight you take away, the more pay load you can carry, yes, this is true. But most of the weight will no be able to be removed, and if you start cutting material from some components and structures, you will inevitably weaken them. With the conditions these trucks face all day long, that would add up to failure of components or structures alarmingly fast. If anything, I see there being a break for a while and then a slow build up to a larger size tire, then truck. It may even take a different wheel/axle configuration to get there, but with modern technology, that may not have the same issues that past designs had with tandem trucks, or other setups. Now 1000 tonners, yeah, I think that may be a bit out there. Brian
I wonder what happened to Eddie at the Emerites Truck Factory?? He used to follow the thread and comment. I suspect that they have had some setbacks. While the design may be far fetched, it is good to see some creative thinking. It is tougher to get the $$ to support that kind of thinking though.
I wonder what the capacity of some of the trucks featured at the ETF site would be if they were built with the tires, engines, and other equipment used on the CAT 797 or the T-282?
Weight does not always equal strength, as we utilize more advanced design abilities such as FEA, and new age materials become more cost affective, weight can be reduced without sacrificing strength. With all the big truck manufacturers I deal with, weight reduction is a huge part of each new truck design. Not saying I am right, just my prediction.
No, weight doesn't always equal strength. But the work I have seen them doing to truck frames up here is mostly beefing up weak points to reduce the cracking issues. There is no way they can make large leaps in payload capacity by doing redesign work on existing models. They may make small gains here and there, but nothing too substantial. Brian
This may have already been mentioned, but what about a tandem axle arrangement on a truck in the 500-600 ton size? (kind of like the old Titan and Wabco trucks) That way the tire diameter would stay the same as the 360-400 ton trucks. I realize the % of payload vs. tare would go down with the extra axle resulting in worse $/ton. But it could be built couldn't it?
WABCO 3200B had a poor turning radius due to the tandem axle, it also was rough on the rear tires for the same reason, I dont think you will see that design coming back. I still have a picture of that truck on the office wall Right next to the picture of 930E with no driver. The future is autonomus.
500 ton truck would sure be a monster... but would be fun to drive it
Hi Rio I am assuming you are in the wabush mines. What about a tandam with the front and rear act as stearing axles and power going only to the rigid axle.
Last time they came out with that kind of system, it proved to be a maintenance nightmare. Who knows if they could have better luck with modern technology. My biggest concern is that with more moving parts, you have higher wear and maintenance. Brian
When you say more moving parts = higher wear and maintenance are you refering to CAT transmissions/ final drives vs Komatsu electric drive systems? Has anyone heard new information about the CAT electric drive truck or have they given up? I just went through a mine induction here in AU and they have added a new procedure. One honk for start up, two for forward, three for reverse and four to pass the CAT truck coming out of the pit.
Nope, I was referring to the rear steering axle tried out in the past. But I guess it would apply in the context you stated as well. Since the Komatsus won't get any wear while waiting at the shop to get fixed while the Cats earn their keep in the mine. Brian
Lol, nice pic. Thats a good one.
While I feel Komatsu has a superior truck, unfortunatly you are right that Komatsus sit in the shop a while...because CATs product support is far superior
Hmmmm -- wonder why Komatsu doesn't have any more than a 10% share in the big truck market if they are so superior. Must be a lot of equipment purchasers out there that aren't real smart. Question. How do you double the trade in price of a Komatsu machine. Answer. Make sure it is full of fuel.
Not trying to start stuff, just respectfully giving my opinion of the equipment I have worked on, and a big reason for that is what I stated above, CAT has a top notch parts and product support system that no other company can match. Anyone who honestly thinks that a perfect machine is made has some screws loose. A smart customer looks into product support of a peice of equipment before buying it.
MrElectric03 No malice intended chief, just having a friendly niggle. Most of the fleet i look after is Cat but have quite a few PC1800's and smaller Komatsu excavators and yes thet are great machines. Their graders and scrapers may leave a bit to be desired but even the loaders are a great product. Sorry if it sounded like i was trying to start an argument, but the old Cat versus Komatsu debate will still be around long after you and i have had enough of the world. Love your input to the forum. Cheers.
None taken, I live in California where morons that have never seen or run a komatsu are quick to bash them because it doesnt have those three magic letters. Your right, the debate will always go on, but everything breaks and thats why I have a job...lol.
Komatsu Rulez..........and Cat drools.................lol.....
1000 ton 12 wheol side dumping ultrahauler Brian Lunaticfreak and crew Alberto Azocar of Santiago Chile obtained US Patent 7,267409 on a 1000 ton light weight ultrahauler. 1000 ton on 250 ton body and side dump. 12 wheels on three axles with two rigid axles. Two diesel-electric power units. Alternatively an 800 ton load with 200 ton body on eight wheels. How do you see the practicality / problems of this approach?
I just glanzed it over and it looks like a pretty clever design, that guy really did some thinking. But where is a crazy entrepreneur kind of company that will take on the challenge and build it?
It's a very unique design, but I can't see it working out like the creator intended. I'll have to elaborate later, since I just came off night shift, and am pretty tired.
Its a very interesting design but also very elaborate. I dont see it working too well due to the cost of all of the elaborate parts. I mean look how long the bed cylinders would have to extend, they probably would run $25,000 each if not more. I also dont think the design of the bed would do to well on slopes, not to mention the cost for a set of tires for the truck.
Dang, I can't get it to open. Sure would like a look at the thing.
I may have missed it, but I did not see any suspension in the design. I wonder how that works, not being able to absorb the bumps in the road. The connections between the axles seem a little light to hold the weight that it is alledged to carry. I do not see enough strength to keep it from folding up when it takes a good sized bump. The bed will tie things together enough at the top, but what about the lower end? Look at the stress of over 1,000 tons GVW and only a 4 link with a pretty narrow cross section relative to the overall size of the truck. The multi stage lift cylinders seem a little extreme. I am not sure that the angles shown in the drawings line up from bed down to bed up. It does not look like they would stretch out that long. Cylinders that long stretched out like shown may not retain enough strength to absorb the shock of material striking the bed as it falls out while unloading. Looks to me like fatigue would set in pretty early, and as mentioned, they look real pricey, and not just 25K as mentioned. I am thinking much more myself. I do see some potential there though. It is nice to see some fresh ideas, as well as some old ones revisited. Does anyone else see shades of the Euclid RX?
I agree with alot of what JDOFMEMI says, but I disagree that the bed would really tie things together at the top end very well. Look at the work Liebherr had to put in to make the bed on the TI-274 they have developed strong enough to take the place of some of the frame. The bed on this design doesn't appear to be sturdy enough to provide enough support to keep the truck from crumpling into a tiny ball. I'd have to say the weight is going to be some tough to keep down to 250 tons. These trucks go through hell......twisting, turning, flexing, etc. In order to make the truck strong enough to handle the proposed payload, the weight is going to have to be more than that in my opinion. I could go on.......
alco You are right about the bed not looking strong enough. I just mentioned it because it was the only rigid part tieing things together end to end. While the curved shape is inherently stronger than a flat floor and sides, I still do not think that it is up to the task of carrying 1,000 tons. It looks pretty thin and un reinforced for the amount of payload it needs to endure. Look back into the 70's and the V-con. If I remember right, it was the first 250 ton hauler, but was a one off design, and never made production. It shared some similar thoughts of spreading the load evenly, but never did succeed.
Ahhh, gotcha. I understand what you mean, and I kind of wondered if that's what you meant. I like the idea of this truck, but I think it may be a bit of a pipe dream. I know we have issues with conventional trucks tearing the frames up from the stresses applied to them up here, so i can only imagine what this design would do over time. I know we have some exceptional conditions in the tarsands, but I honestly believe that even in a hard rock mine where the ground conditions can be much more favourable, this truck would still encounter problems it could not overcome.
A search for Belaz trucks mentions that the company has done some work on a potential 560 ton capacity truck based on its current 75600 model (320 metric ton capacity).
I think you are bit confused on that one. The loaded weight of the 75600 is 560 tonnes (240 tonne truck weight plus 320 Tonne payload). The capacity of the truck is not the weight listed as the weight loaded.
No I believe I read something, don't have the link handy, about a Chilean company talking to Belaz about building a truck with a 560 ton capacity. Belaz has had some monster concepts in the past. Remember that model of a 420 metric ton (465 short ton) capacity haul truck that IIRC they showed at one of the MinExpo's
Dayton3 One alternative is go to: http://www.google.com/patents/" and enter: 7,267409 Another alternative is to go to the USPTO: US Patent 7,267409 Or search the US Patent and Trademark Office Search for 7,267409
Dayton3 Apologies, new system. Try again. One alternative is go to: http://www.google.com/patents/ and enter: 7,267409 Another alternative is to go to the USPTO: US Patent 7,267409 Or search the US Patent and Trademark Office Search for 7,267409
Try again: the USPTO search is at: http://patft.uspto.gov/
How about the concept of 12 tires instead of 6? Is that workable given electric wheel motors?
^Thanks guys. I got it.
Another indication that we may see 500ton haul trucks in the near future is that Komatsu is already 100% able to manufacture a PC10000 for anyone who puts an order in. Dont ask for any specs as I dont know, but I do know that it will be a monster and ready to load the next generation haul trucks.
I remember when they were looking at building a PC10000 for KMC Mining. Never got off the ground, and that was a few years ago now. I would imagine it would be right around the same size as an RH400. And with the sales of those taking off in the past little while, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Komatsu come out with one to compete head to head.
The RH400 is 980 ton with a 44m3 bucket The PC8000-6 is 700-720 ton depending on configuration with a 42m3 bucket I'd say their already competing, and there are far more PC8000's in the world than there are RH400's, and I know Australia is about to take delivery of another two PC8000's to two different mine sites and as said in my post about Komatsu FrontRunner Rio Tinto are looking to buy possibly 2 for a mine in Western Australia. Dont get me wrong, the RH400 is no doubt a good machine, but when you look at the stats - more or less same size bucket capacities, same engines at same hp but yet the RH400 has an extra 280 ton to move around, well you can see where I'm going with this... :thumbsup
Oh, I see where you're going with that, but trust me, if you've seen a 400 running, they blow the PC8000 out of the water. No real comparison at all. The 400 is far more stable, which allows for faster, smoother cycling. It also has 380 more hp. Take for example the H740.....it has the same hp as a 400, a slightly smaller bucket, and can't turn numbers out that even come close to the 400 we have that is older.
Remember the Cat 779A & 779B electric trucks bad very bad
I've looked at it and I agree. Not 1,000 tons with todays technology. Perhaps 750 tons or 800 with the tri axle design. One question I have with the design is this: Doesn't the dump bed, if loaded to max when side dumping, create a significant chance of the load tipping over the entire truck? IIRC, things similar to that have happenedd with conventional oversized dump trucks when the load sticks to the bed when dumping.
I hope CAT comes up with a better electric truck this time than 779A & 779B, they were a nightmare to work on, the engine was removed like a vee dub from the bottom
I agree with and read about the limiting factor being tires for going bigger on trucks. However I think I remember something about not being able to ship larger tires for trucks because things have been maxed out as far as diameter goes. Anyone know anymore on this?
It has been said that they can't ship anything larger than what they already offer, but that is not true. They can definitely ship larger tires, they just have more restrictions on shipping them due to size. Costs escalate rather steeply when they try moving loads larger than the tires they are currently moving around, but it can be done.
Alco, you are so right about there, their and they're. But at some point then the size for shipping could be exceeded, just not yet. So there, their and they're to you too. (lol)
Hahahaha
So the Cat trucks are always in front of the Komatsu,s?!!
Stinkycat, would be interested to hear more indepth stuff on the 779 you worked on and was there actually a B model produced?
Yep, thats the ones, the same ones you only have to employ mechanics to work on and not mechanics and electricians, the same one that you only have to go to one supplier for service, not 3 and the same ones that outsell the competition by 2 to 1 but on the upside i am glad there is such a good No 2!!
Every one has a Horror story and a dream run......... I have a 21000 hour old Transmission that I am watching closely at present in a 793C:- Oil Commander perfect (4ppm iron) and VIMS Slip Times low end of spec. We have 17000 hour old Final Drives that still have clean Magnets at PM and we have seen 18000 Hour old Converters only changed because we had the Engines out...........When Built Properly with all the Updates, Set/Adjusted correctly, Good Condition Monitoring (where the HELL would you find a GOOD CM???) Maintained with clean Oil and operated within Intended Design the Cat Drivetrains will far exceed expectations!
That sounds about right Gav. I dunno how they do it where he's from, but we tend to make the tow truck follow along with everybody else, not let them out to pass.
Aye well the Komatsu Electric drive trucks do have some Golden Ground .. Mountian top removal. The electric Haulers just out perform the Mechanical drives .. (Mostly on the Heavy Downs) Thats why CAT wanted to get the AC'ers in at the Mountian top removal sites .. (Missed the boat) Might see some 500 ton trucks .. I think they will be from CAT .. Maybe they can Push the current 797 to take the weight? Komatsu will need a new Truck, The 960 is a pushed 930.
:Banghead:bashwhat ever...........
What ever to what? Will be ~ / ~ Wont be a 500 ton Haul truck? Komatsu Trucks are Good? Komatsu Trucks are Bad? :beatsme:beatsme:beatsme Gonna have to be more specific fella
I worked on them in the mid 60's the "B" model was a dump bed,control panel,fuel tank change and up grade, the engine was a D348? V-12 twin turbo poorly designed engine small valves and would carbon up requiring replacement. Because of the compact design it was easier to drop the engine. The control system was easier to work on the Unit Rig M100 I'll try and answer and questions I can but remember that was almost 50 years ago
Not bigger, just cheaper... The move to alternating current(AC) is typical for heavy equipment as well as cars...the AC part is already about us in Diesel-electric locomotives. The prime mover turns an AC alternator, the current is changed to DC through a DC thryster to control amperage, then through an AC inverter, then to an AC traction motor featuring no brushes, etc. The only moving parts are the armatures. Uphill operation is simple, mash the gas & git'er done, however there is no stall point...the machine will simply sit there under full power if it can't pull(but it will). This is where DC motors would melt...no problem with AC. That is why Caterpillar has traditionally held back from electric-drive. Especially since they have spend so much developing the worlds best mechanical drive train. Downhill, dynamic-electric braking will be utilized & the power produced will be stored in batteries to aid the prime mover thereby reducing fuel consumption(they hope). That's provided they have enough space for storage batteries(they do). Dynamic braking in a short word uses power generated by the same motors that spin the wheels to slow down the vehicle, reducing the danger of hot hydraulic oil as seen with the current system of retarders. All systems are monitored by operations, diagnostics & archive computers that are linked to a system that will eventually eliminate the need for human intervention, that answers the lack of "common sense." I will take several years, maybe five at the most, to perfect this, but no more transfer-case, transmission, rear-axle differentials, just planetary final-drives past the traction motors, one per powered wheel. The problem with the large tires you discuss is not the tread, it's in the side-wall construction & that will bring a limit to speed & capacity, just as with your favorite SUV(bet you didn't know that...).
CAT haul trucks outperform other makes in many categories, but if you compare the loaded hill climbing abilities of a Komatsu 960E to a 793D, the Komatsu wins. I know the payload capacities are different, but in many of the copper/gold mines in the U.S., these two trucks earn their keep side by side. I took this picture a couple weeks ago at the Bingham Canyon Mine in Utah. This primary haul road is pitched at a 6-7% grade where the trucks are lined up. The 793D's are maxing out at 12mph, while the Komatsu's will pull it at 14.5mph. Komatsu 960E's stacked up behind 793D's hauling to the dump is a common sight.
Sorry it took a while to get back to you, I'm not sure how many 779's Cat were made.Peabody coal had a truck with 2 779's one on each end of side dump I think Anaconda had about 20, this was a stripping operation when I was there. We used Cat 666 twin engine scrapers,quad track D9G's 2000 tons an hour conveyors and 660 belly dumps, the mine is shut down now Google earth for Twin Buttes or Green Valley Arizona you can still see 3 of the electric shovels out in the field. Plus 3 other mines and only 1 is still active ASARCO mission unit, my Father broke 1st ground their about 1960
Didn,t see the 795F there Mass- X?
Great picture from Bingham Canyon. A few clarifications. Komatsu has two versions of their 930E truck. The standard truck with 2,700hp which is actually very slow on grade. They have an SE version of which they have only sold to Bingham Canyon. The 930E SE has 3,500hp, however the engine has 12 turbos and is very unreliable. Yes, the truck is fast, however the engine cost, fuel consumption, mech availability, etc... are very poor. CAT has a new F series. 793F with a new 2,650hp engine, a new 797F with a new single engine with 4,000hp, and even a new 795F AC truck. The new CAT F series trucks are extremely fast.
Are you referring to the U.S. only? Because theres a fair few in the southern hemisphere! Who maintains them? The mine itself, Komatsu or Cummins?
Yes, I was refering to only the USA. Collahuasi copper mine in Chile also has some of the SE 930E's. In most cases customers do their own maintenance on Komatsu trucks because they believe they can do it better and more cost effective.
Regarding the 795F’s, I’ve actually been lucky in that I’ve seen all the field follow units at the three U.S. operating sites. Barrick Goldstrike has a strict enough “No Camera” policy I was unable to get any photos of the 795F’s there. But I have a couple decent pictures of the trucks at Bingham Canyon and Black Thunder. The pictures from Bingham Canyon show 795F’s on haul roads; and yes, they are very fast trucks. They'll outpace the Komatsu 960E and 930E ES's on a grade. The Black Thunder photo is backing onto a pitfill dump. I was never very close to where they had the 795F's operating, hence the distant picture. But it's the center truck in the photo.
Thanks Mass X, looks like a good tour you had around the country side. You can observe some prettygood practices at BC just from the pics, well shot material, good load placement, good haul roads etc. Seems odd they run the haul trucks on the sides they do as it puts the cabs side by side when passing but i guess the driving on the right side of the road thing is in place just like your countries reg road rules and different to mine!
I've been to BC but don't remember which side of the road run. But in the 60's all the mines in southern Arizona drove on the wrong side as the do in OZ
In regards to the Komatsu’s at Bingham Canyon; all of the above. Komatsu, Cummins, Caterpillar, P&H (as well as others I’m sure I’m not aware of) all have on-site offices, and do a lot of the maintenance on the equipment they’ve sold to the mine. Bingham Canyon has a large maintenance department that works on their own equipment, but from the times I’ve been there, there’s usually Cummins, Komatsu and Caterpillar mechanics in the maintenance bays alongside the mine’s mechanics.
From the mines I’ve been in here in the U.S., the majority do run left-hand traffic. Most of the bigger scraper contractors run their scraper projects left-hand as well. From my understanding, Bingham Canyon runs right-hand traffic because of the high amount of contractors and vendors that they have to share their haul roads with. At any given time there are two dozen or more contractor vehicles somewhere in the pit, a number of which are delivery truck drivers. In the picture I posted earlier, you can see two Komatsu or Cummin’s technician vehicles behind the 960E at the back of the line. With some mines, the thought is that when sharing your haul roads with a very high number of outside vendors, changing to left-hand traffic will result in more accidents than it will prevent. Delivery truck drivers are usually the biggest accident concern when changing traffic patterns to something different than what some supertrucker is accustomed to on a highway. Does every mine in Australia run left-hand traffic?
They sure do!
Mass-X can you share any more pictures of the pit from a distance? Looking at those Benches in the back Ground that "Sand Pit" is HUGE?
Cracking pics Mass-X ... Been wondering about these trucks for a while .. I see they are running in near perfect conditions . More pics please ..
What they don't have haul roads like this where you have worked Ross?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ha ... Not Compact, Dry, Skate-Park Smooth surface like pictured More like a Ploughed Field .. Rutty .. Really Test a truck out ... Should have sent one up to see Brian .. :drinkup
Rod, Bingham Canyon is touted as the largest man made excavation on the planet, visible from the moon-but i have not checked myself!! Used to be a 793 site amongst many Rio Komatsu sites but i think engine issues have played there part there. Surprised!!
3516's have kept me off the streets for the last decade................... Where does it fit with Freeport for the size of the truck fleet!
Gavin' Bingham Canyon was a mountain when it was 1st opened and they used locomotives and side dump rail cars for the ore
When I get home home this weekend, I'll post additional pictures of the Bingham Canyon Mine. All my photos of that pit are on my PC.
Now that could have been interesting!
Yep Mass X all left hand traffic down here, i like it that way with clockwise traffic out of the pit as it puts the loaded truck against the wall and not out on the edge to the next bench below.
We run right hand drive since it is what all of the operators are used to outside of work. It allows us to run with standard traffic rules. If we have a pit that dictates the use of left hand drive, or a soft road where left hand drive allows the trucks to stay on the harder side, we simply set up signs and the drive changes to suit.
Bingham Canyon Mine, run by Rio Tinto’s Kennecott Utah Copper Corp. The haulage fleet consists of over 70 haul trucks; mostly CAT 793D’s and Komatsu 960E’s. Ten electric shovels, all P&H 4100’s and 2800’s. One hydraulic shovel, an O&K RH200. Eight blasthole drills. I don’t know the exact count, but 5-6 24H/M’s, 8-9 16H/M’s, a couple dozen D10R/T’s and D11R/T’s, and a host of 834’s and 854’s, including a new 854K. Daily production exceeds 450,000 tons. The pit is over 5000’ feet deep (1524m), and 2.5 miles (4km) wide.
Pictures of the crushing operation, showing how they can achieve those haul roads you could skateboard on. Pictures #2 and #3/#4 were taken 21 days apart of the exact same area of the pit as part of the West Pushback 1 Project. Shows what kind of production can be achieved by the army of haulers and shovels.
This picture shows an operation cleaning up the subsidence after a slope failure on the western side of the pit. A 385C with shovel cab cutting highwall/assist, two D10T's trapping to a 4100XP loading a 793D. A 24H on the floor. Lastly, a P&H 2800XPC under construction.
It's great to see what it looks like down there. Flew over the mine a week ago on the way south....damn clouds. Great pictures, thanks for posting, and feel free to post many more. How many 960Es do they have? Any idea how they're working out? We had a prototype running around at one of the mines up here. They had some pretty severe problems with it, even for a prototype. Mind you, it had the Siemens drive system, not the GE like the other 960E prototypes and pretty much every other Komatsu electric truck has. Do you know if they still have any 797s running around down there?
Thanks for Delivering on the Pictures!!!! Well Done. How does the economics work on such a huge Hole and 240T??? Where do your "D" Trucks fall down? Steering/Fan Pumps? Head Joint Integrity? Acc. Drive Shafts? Trans. Slip Times?
Thanks for the pictour Mass X. So let me see if i got this right, they have a dedicated crushing crew that manufacture material on site to sheet the roads? Brian, i think the 797,s went long ago from there and are in Indonesia now and as a side note Morenci,s 797,s did not work out either and the 3 of them ended up in your neck of the woods. I don,t really think there was a particular thing that ousted the trucks from either site, running costs possibly but Cat chose those sites for field follow as the sites have very good practices going on and would give an honest fingerprint during FF testing.
So let me get this straight. The further down they dig, the larger the circumference has to be of the pit to stay below allowable grade on the haul road. So they must be constantly cutting out the roadway walls to enlarge the hole and provide new roadway. I wonder how long the haul road is to get out of the pit? Some astronomical number of miles?
Epic pictures :notworthy The only Data they will get from the 95's is rolling figures, Looks like a very predictable mine site .. Mass-X: Just keep them pictures comming partner. I for one, Never get tired of viewing
The Siemens inverter for the 860 Komatsu is rated for and has hauled 450 tons. It is the smaller of the new generation inverters that Siemens is building. X51
Actually, I meant to add that the problem with the tires has to do with size. They can make bigger tires, but they have no way to transporting them to the site. They'd be huge. The new Siemens truck inverters were designed to pair with our newer shovel inverters so a truck could be filled in two scoops. I'm told no Siemens 860 inverters have gone to the U.S. or Canadian markets so I'm not sure where the 'problem' prototype unit was seen. I'm told one 960 went to Canada. That might be the one that had a pump leak, but rather than fixing it, the customer decided to let it keep on leaking. They added water instead of antifreeze so it froze up literally. You can't always go by half the story. The pumps have all been upgraded to stainless steel models. To me though, the coolest thing was when we built the first direct drive dragline for China. Seeing the pictures of the huge ring motor for that and knowing out cabinets power it... staggering. X51 Orders have been strong, but transitioning away from the older GTO trucks has been slow because our customers still order the older generation trucks.
Can't believe that in Canada where we put antifreeze in our our veins as well as in our equipment that anybody would use water where it would freeze!
Actually, they can definitely transport larger tires. The issue is not that they cannot transport them, it's that once you break a certain size, there is added cost in transporting them due to different routes being needed, more permitting, and so on. You might want to reread the post with the comment about the "problem prototype". It says right in the post that it was a 960 that was the issue, not an 860. The issues with the drive system were the typical Siemens issues of constant inverter faults, as well as blowing all of the drive motors that were built for the truck in a matter of two months. This was in the summer time, and there was no freezing issue. So you're right, you can't always go by half the story.
I'll chat with the guys who designed it and see what they say. Feedback is always important. It sounds like you saw the first one ever built. Field situations are sometimes very tough to recreate with a test fixture. And yes, the cost and logistics of getting the tires there is the drawback from what I'm told. I'm sure Siemens is prepared to make inverters for a 500 ton truck if the customers have a truck that is capable of hauling that capacity. Again, the smallest 860 inverter is rated for 450 tons. I would love to see these things actually doing what they do. I saw the first GTO prototype being built for a mining show, so I've seen the design and evolution of the various products since the beginning. It's hard to really imagine the amount of power these things are handling in such a compact design. When the trucks are fully loaded and braking on a downhill grade, they are releasing enough energy to power over 300 homes. If an assembler drops a loose piece of hardware into a cabinet, the electromagnetic field created from charging it up can propel the hardware out like a projectile. The heavy cables spasm like they are alive when power is switched on or off through them.
Back on the Bingham Canyon Mine topic, not sure if anyone has seen it, but there's a program on Discovery Channel called Belly of the Beast. This particular episode is about Komatsu trucks and it shows the Komatsu factory in Peoria where the trucks are made and theres a small scene on Bingham Canyon, they go on board a 4100 XPB and load a 960e. Pretty cool :drinkup
It is impossible that you would have seen three trucks at the time of your post. It is impossible for you to see three field development trucks at minesites at the time of THIS post. Elko isn't scheduled to receive their truck until the end of this month; Wyoming will not see theirs until the end of May/early June. Bingham Canyon has the only truck in the field, and they will be getting another within days. Goldstrike and Black Thunder will get trucks soon, but I'm telling you...they don't have any to date. I'll post some pics of the trucks soon.
I don’t know the number. I have a friend who works in the maintenance department at Bingham Canyon and from everything he’s told me, they’re top notch trucks. The only downside he passed along was that the operators say they’re less comfortable to operate compared to the 793D’s, but from a maintenance perspective he likes them. That’s all I know of them. The last one I saw there would have been in ’06 or ’07. Great topic, we could run a whole thread discussing that one. But all my time at Bingham Canyon has been from the contractor’s side or as a tourist. I can’t speak for their mine haulage economics. Since this thread has been hijacked a few dozen times, start a new post and we can discuss large pit/truck size economics there. I’m not the one to ask about that since I don’t work at Bingham Canyon. The only 793D’s I’ve been involved with directly was from the engineering/optimization standpoint and the relevant issues in that instance were actually related to suspension due to conditions (coal mine in northern climate) so I can’t add anything. Yes. That’s a pretty common practice at most all of the larger hard rock mines in the states. I figured that would be SOP in any of the larger operations like Kalgoorlie in Australia as well? I stand corrected. They would’ve been 240 tonners with Trinity bodies than because their profile made them stand out and look identical to the Tinaja/Bingham Canyon units.
There is a solution to transporting higher capacity tires. Two peice tires. If you made the O.D of the inner section of a 2 peice tire the same O.D as a regular 63" tire, what would its capacity be? Going a bit wider in tires, maybe similar size to the tires on a L2350 loader in 2 peice design would give some decent capacity gains.
I could talk all day about giant dump trucks. I'm not sure why. John Pope has a couple of interesting designs on his website. He does artwork for the magazine Industrial Vehicle Technology (IVT). One is a 560 ton capacity dump truck with four dual sets of rubber tracks (Pope is very fond of rubber tracks) in place of conventional tires. Another is the original Terex Titan 33-19 upgraded with new technology to give it 560 ton capacity.
http://www.pope-design.net/ http://www.pope-design.net/haulpak_truck.htm
So, has anyone seen the concept Belaz is pushing for the 500 ton truck they plan on producing in 2013? http://www.belaztrucks.com/belaz-announces-450mt-truck/
They have had the design drawing for nearly 10 years now so it is good to see they will finaly build the big Belaz. With the new P&H4800 xpc and the Cat 6120 shovel, these trucks will be more viable.
Siemens drives are so rubbish. I work on Hitachi drives now and they're 10000 times better.
Yair . . . Those blokes actualy get paid to draw those things? Cheers.
activeperson ?In 795 why did cat put Hitachi traction motors instead of using wheelmotors was it just too save $ on final drive /brake systems? Yes you're not the only one from cat
alco are you at rtz with r/c driveless hauler with twin steer eg Euclid R210 the 960,797,T282,MT8800 would carry 450-500+tonns on same size tyres and to go one more 3 axles running duals 600+ running 4000HP modern hi speed diesel .
Ross I tolled that the 1 customer told them we want a electric truck our 797 keep dying "B.H.B"?
Sorry oldtom, I have tried, but I can't really figure out what you're trying to ask.
Hi rosewood the Cat -Komatsu debate go's back to cat verses I.H. Wabco being where Komatsu present haulpac. & loaders came from
And that goes all the way back to RG LeTourneau whose pholificy back in the 30's & 40's "The jobs arn't too big; the equipment is just too small." Check out his 5,800 hp 210 c/yd scrapers from the 60's, powered by 8 16V71's driving electric wheels
Oil Sands of Alberta Canada...Syncrude Site???
The 795 never has used and currently does not use Hitachi traction motors.
Hitachi wouldn't sell any to Cat....
And Cat wouldn't buy any from Hitachi...
Nah they'd just buy out another company to get what they want.
EH, Well said...
Nope...wrong! We neither own the Generator Manfacturer or the Wheel Motor Manufacturer. What was your point?
Think you missed the point. That was kinda tongue in cheek. I haven't touched a 795 (but would like to) All I know is that they have a Mitsubishi drive system - Mitsubishi are tied in with Cat in some way. Cat were in talks with Siemens to equip the 795s coming to Australia with their drive systems, but they mustn't have gone that way. Who makes the main alternator then? Kato?
I got ya point....we were just playing with each other!! Kato Gen and Skoda WM. Next GEN will indeed come from a different supplier. Are you in the Hunter Valley or QLD?
Central Qld for the last year, was in the Hunter previous, both with Hitachi. I've seen a few pics of a 795 and the wheel motor housing looks damn small compared to the Hitachis and Komatsus. I've had people try to tell me that the 795 still runs a diff, but that didn't sound right to me. In any case, it's gotta be better than a Siemens drive, worked on the Liddell EH 5000s for a while it's not that good. Now I work on the Jap made EH 3500s and 4000s with Hitachi's own drive system, goes alright.
Cat bought E M D I wonder if Cat buying E M D will give Cat any new electrical components to put on 500 ton truck, let's not forget they also bought a shovel company also
Maurice Did you ever read the story of RG LeTourneau's life? Quite a man. I think I got the book from the Historical Construction Equipment Association (been a member there for years). I moved a lot of dirt with an old "C" Pull in my mis-spent youth. Also used to be part of the KomDresco company in South Africa (Komatsu Dresser). I was in the Marion division but worked on some 860 haul trucks too. Mr. LeTourneau had a great mind and really came up with a lot of unique things (including some really neat low cost metal houses with walls filled with anti-freeze). Some were built in Peoria.
Yeah. It's very huge. Actually, one of my dream is to operate a huge truck that can carry lots of tons.
Hi Wulf, I'm a researcher for a TV production company trying to find archive images/ footage of mine trucks being overloaded for use in a new 10-part Discovery Channel series. I realise it was many years ago that you posted this, but do you own the rights to these images, or might be able to put me in touch with whoever does? Many thanks, Tom
Thomaslewton, just look at pictures of haul trucks in the oilsands, they're all overloaded all the time.
At the Highvale mine we have Liebherr T282 trucks running in pre strip that have a 400 ton load capacity and they regularly carry 400 ton loads. http://www.liebherr.ca/ME/en-GB/products_ca-me.wfw/id-14270-0/measure-metric
It's funny, Liebherr won't let us rate out trucks higher than 380 tons, and at one point we derated them to 340 tons. It didn't help with reliability, so we upped the rating to 380 again. The C series is a much better truck than the B series, the two we have are 400 tons.
Anyone had much to do with the Cat 795? Looks like it'd be a pretty good truck. Wouldn't mind working on one and seeing how they are.
They are a sound truck. There is some things they do extremely well. But we have our bugs to sort too. We have 16 odd in the Dirt.
http://www.foxnews.com/leisure/2013/10/03/world-largest-dump-truck-stakes-its-claim/ Here's a video of the Belaz 500 ton haul truck driving.
The Russians do enjoy building big things Got to give them that. Still, don't think the truck looks very good.
It's as ugly as sin!
there at the last days for the Terex Titian it hauled anywhere from 450-500tons of overburden. But it didn't last to long doing that before they retired it.Thats alot of weight to be carrying around.
IIRC from the book on Euclid & Terex earthmovers, the massive overloading of the Titan was AFTER it had already suffered a cracked axle (which was repaired) and it was obvious no more would be built. The mine owners basically wanted to get as much work out of it as possible before it wore out for good. Glad it was preserved in Sparwood.
Whatever happened to the 540 ton design that Caterpillar was supposed to be working on as a successor to the CAT 797 as their largest offering?
I've never heard of Cat working on a 540 ton version. I have a feeling, it's working right beside the D12 machines in the land of make believe.
Well when I was assembling 797s at finning, there were cat engineers there, and they said there was something in the works. They wouldn't give details though. I honestly don't see a reason for bigger.
Only got 1 number option left, 799. I think the site is called Pandora Brian, LOL!!
I agree with Ben. The bigger you go the smaller the potential worldwide market you have to sell to. I know a number of years ago Cat looked at making something larger than the 994 and when they analyzed the potential market for such a size of machine the sales numbers were so small that it would have taken them literally decades to recoup the development costs so the idea went no further. I would think a big brother for the 797 would fall into the same category.
In my experience Cat should have stopped with the 992 and not gone any bigger. At a minesite at present where 4 994Fs are operating and they seem to frequent the workshop regularly. Also running 2 Komatsu WA1200s and 2 LW1850s.
The only reason for a 994 to visit a workshop regularly is poor maintenance or neglect IMHO. Too many people treat it as an overgrown 992, it's not. It's a mining machine and has to be maintained like one. The Maintenance Dept has to be all over it like a rash all the time. I've seen neglected 994's give availability of less than 50%, well-maintained ones over 90%. The highest hour machines I was involved with had over 70k hours on the clock and were still meeting an 85% availability target day-in, day-out. Currently we have 3 F's with 20k hours on them where availability is around 85-90%. That will reduce somewhat as we go into planned component changes in the near future. Apologies for taking the thread off track. We were talking about 500-ton trucks.
We don't have any thing that big but seems like too many bosses think with a typo in their head. They think "Preventive Maintenance" means "Preventing Maintenance"
Good one. I'm going to remember that one and wheel it out at opportune moments .........
I found this video while browsing. Looks like the chinese copy of the ETF truck has beat the original to the field. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3fAYYRq39k&feature=share
Yair . . . Good one JDOFMEMI . To my untrained eye it looks quite impressive. It certainly appears quite responsive and doesn't hang about. Cheers.
It seems to have a pretty fast take off loaded(unless they sped the camera up) it will be interesting to see the development of this concept
If you look closely, the video gets sped up right as the truck pulls away from the shovel, in order to make the truck look faster than it really is. One of the tells of this is if you watch the shovel dipper in the background, you see it cycle at nearly twice its normal speed it was moving while loading the truck. I think the truck is a slug, but marketing doesn't want anyone to see that. It looked slower that normal trucks while running loaded, once you figure out the video is running double time. I guess time will tell if it is a success or not.
It is an impressive design in my opinion. My regard for Chinese industry just went up a notch.
Been a long while but I've kept my eye on the ETF truck comcept, but how many tons capacity is the Chinese version? Note, to my untrained eye, the Chinese version seems to have a large load bearing structure between the dump bed and the running gear.
Anyone heard anything new about newer huge trucks? How many of that monster 500 ton capacity Belaz one in Russia have been built? I figured attacks on the coal industry by the Obama admin. and the drop in oil prices have reduced the impetus to build larger ones by Caterpillar and other manufacturers for coal mining and tar sands
The way mining markets are right now manufacturers are looking to save money not spend it. There is no stomach for anything larger than what's currently in service. Regarding the larege Belaz there were a few clips posted to YouTube when the model first went into operation (you can tell it was because in every clip the truck is clean and shiny) but nothing since. Every clip posted more recently than the first one is obviously the same truck video'd on the same day, just uploaded to YouTube at a different date. It's more than likely been consigned to the scrapheap of history along with the other efforts from the same manufacturer.
I don't know. The Russians never seem to like throwing away anything.
You've obviously never worked in Russia I take it..? Maybe I need to scan some of the photos I have of the scrapyards at the mines in Siberia I was at ....... what looked like almost new machines all with unpronouncable manufacturer's names just dumped in lines.
Interestingly enough since the end of the Cold War you can find pictures of equipment like cranes and dump trucks that were clearly built on the chassis of Soviet military ICBM transports.