Hi everyone The starter was replaced by former butcher owner along with batteries and fuel pump last spring but kept the old cables so was still hard starting but I replaced with new and was starting like a champ all summer but now we getting nights just below freezing now a week ago went to start only humming not engaging after few tries it fired up This morning same thing but this took banging on the starter and dozen tries till it engaged and started After the cold morning start will start no problem rest of the day could the solenoid be acting up have 12.7 volts of power to it and 14 when running so was just wondering what y’all think before having to remove the starter thanks
I would revisit the batteries and cables before condemning the starter but if you got it to start by beating on it it probably has a internal connection issue.
Good point I never had the cables off the starter the positive was new from the battery to the starter just replaced the clamp down end at the battery with a copper ring to bolt to the post and maybe should check the ground on the starter can’t see the starter gone in 6 months with maybe 50 starts
Perform voltage drop test on starter. Then you can know what is actually wrong instead of guessing.
Double check the insulator on the starter's positive lug too. (Where the strap is bolted to the starter OD). My 555D had some clown of a former owner that used a steel washer there and the positive cable was making partial contact to ground every time it tried to start. Half the damned current was going straight to ground in a direct short.
Good possibility my former owner were also clowns chopping wires and cross threading any bolts they removed if they remember to reinstall them even welded the fuel tank and stopped a 1/8” Short on the corner just installed back on filled it up and leaked like a fountain who does that without filling it first and check for leaks
Just a update finally got back to the starter drop test to the starter had very little drop so stater was burnt out funny it would start at 50 degrees and about and only not engage below that anyway threw a new starter in and all good again thanks everyone
Some rebuilt components last short lives, some last a long time. I have seen new batteries that were junk before even installing. They were trickle charged for 2 days and still no good. Got another good one and end of problem. They call some people hay wire as they just bubble gum things together, not worrying about next time. Glad you solved it. Simon C
Guess bad parts are big problem these days was at the dealership overpaying for few small parts and they were saying even on the new tractor they had to replace starter 3 times before finding a good one not a fun job to have to do every 6 months but did get a new block heater in and just for the hell of it pulled the 2 swing cylinders out now for the nightmare of seal kits
Well new update since new starter installed started up good even on morning near zero but today did the not engage thing on first try but started on second I wonder if the positive cable to the front tower looks good but maybe corroded inside might be original but we did voltage drop to starter and was less than one volt not another bad starter
If it has original cables I would replace them. I went with a group 31 stud type battery when I did mine.
I did replace most with the ring ends that bolt on the battery posts but this is duel battery and has one post the two batteries join on and the one positive run to the starter that cable I didn’t replace looks beautiful sealed ends clean but not sure inside but we had no voltage drop at the starter just a crazy thought when key is turned to preheat does that yellow light supposed to go off when ready to crank or just count to 15 all the time my ls180 will count down from 45 and beep when ready maybe this one won’t let the starter engage if not preheated long enough
I replaced the starter on my 575e only to find out the starter was not the problem. What my problem turned out to be was a starter relay. It was a 4 prong automotive style relay located near the stater.
Is that the one on the firewall I just don’t understand what the temperature would have to do with this problem 60 degrees starting like new 32 degrees hums and doesn’t engage
Just looking at your relay I suspect that it is tired and who knows. Can see corrosion on the bracket that hold it to the firewall, looks to me like the pin is somewhat corroded going into the relay holder. Remember you will not be able to feel 1 loose pin when pushing together. Maybe check it out incase it is not soo good. Have had to tighten up relay pin holders in the past to make tight connections. Simon C
Ok thanks for the reply could very well be the issue just wanted to make sure I was looking at the right relay before messing with it wondering if there’s another relay in the fuse box can be switched with this one can’t see how can be another starter only 4 starts on this one my knuckles aren’t even healed yet and our voltage drop test to the old starter only lost 1 volt so thinking all the cables are good
Most likely you have a weak ground or bad cables. My 555e had the same issues as yours with temperature dropping and it not starting. I haven’t had the problem since I redid everything.
Sounds right with the temperature drop effect to bad cables but changed 90 percent only 2 didn’t change were the positive from the power post to the starter and the ground from the disconnect switch to the frame I thought if we had very little voltage drop to the starter then cables are good
Just for your info, I have cleaned up bad battery cable ends one day only to find out the next day I had a total no start. The new path through the cables allowed way more current and the starter cranked very good, but the cable cut off totally inside. Don't get caught with this kind of problem. Good to retest cables after all ends are done. I have found many a cable cut right off and VROOM , new end or cable and all running again. Simon C
Ok pulled out the relay found corrosion on the pins and inside the plug cleaned up the relay hard cleaning inside the plug trying brake cleaner and brush giving this a try first
You can probably get that relay at any auto parts store for$30 or less.
Yes I’m going to pick one up tomorrow cleaned things best I could pushed the relay in and out and gave it a try but still same as before but old relay could be bad
That relay holder is finished. You will have to buy another and connect to the cables. The green that is on the relay pins is guaranteed down into the wires of the holder. Change both pieces and start fresh. When it is that green, new is the only time saving thing to do. By the way , you posted in post #17 that you only lost 1 volt, was that in a cable? Cause if it was, that is too much. Copper has to be bright in colour in a cable, once it starts to discolour it transfers less through the connectors. Once a cable is too old it will turn black eventually. I have changed too many cables to remember and have 3 cable crimping tools, that have fixed so many starting and charging system problems that many of my customers thought something else must be wrong. Good cables, grounds, and relays and things start or at least crank over. Just my thoughts on the quality pictures you posted. Simon C
Forgot to mention that in the picture of the relay, you can see the red battery cable that is crimped but not heat shrinked. It is partially discoloured . After I heat shrink cables I always spray the bolted connection with some Lloyds Moovit penetrating oil or some Fluid film to prevent any future corrosion. I do it on battery posts, solenoid connections ... Just a little touch with no real expense that will save headaches down the road. Simon C
^I agree.^ You need to replace the relay pigtail as well. Here is a link to a set of six 80 amp relays and pigtails for $18 US. https://www.amazon.com/irhapsody-12-Volt-Automotive-Heavy-Duty-Pigtail/dp/B07XC6HT5C
Wow thanks for that was expecting it to be another $400.00 dealer item heck they wanted $50.00 for a 2 inch snap ring
Not sure of your ampacity, but these have been my go-to for some time. I found these when working on GMC medium duty trucks around 2000. They were stock on these trucks. 2 Hella Relay with 12AWG Harness Wiring SPDT Skirted Weatherproof Relays 40A 12V | eBay Each harness has 12AWG wire for the three power positions used for NC or NO locations. Each relay is genuine Hella that is 12V, SPDT, NO 40A, NC 20A. www.ebay.com
I can't find the "Starter Relay" in the parts listings but the relay they show by the 80 amp fusible link beside it is listed as a 70 amp water proof relay for $129.29 US. I assume it is the starter relay because it is pictured and identified in the service manual as being on the firewall beside the 80 amp fusible link. New Holland 575E - TRACTOR LOADER BACKHOE(01/96 - 12/01) Parts Diagrams New Holland Parts Catalog Lookup. Buy New Holland Parts Online & Save! www.messicks.com
Simon c the one voltage drop was when running the starter the cable on the starter is same reading as on battery 12.6 my local parts guy will have relay in tomorrow but I think it’s more the plug then the relay I powered the big post and small one on the relay when touching the other small post can hear the relay clicking so think it’s doing it’s job
Just so you know, a relay can click and that means that the control circuit was strong enough to energize the coil and close the contacts. That does not prove whether or not the inside contacts that transfer the power are badly arced or worn out. It can click and nothing else works. Should have very little loss from the feed power to the outgoing power. Simon C
You never know where you will find the culprit. I recently replaced the starter in my boat only to find it didn't fix it. The starter was cruddy looking so I didn't mind getting a new one. Next I suspected the ignition switch but found it had full battery voltage at the start terminal. Turns out it has a external solenoid relay that sends the signal to the integral solenoid on the starter and the wire terminal to it was corroded. Cleaned the terminals to that and all was good. I will never understand why engineers will add a extra component like a relay to get out of upsizing 12 feet of wire to a gauge that will do the job without it.
electronic things work great when they work but can be a nightmare when they don’t that’s why I have wind up tall case clocks and phonographs no electricity needed
They use the relay to prevent burning out the key switch. The relay can carry 20 amps quite a few times compared to a key switch. Every time a set of contacts separates under load , there is an arc and some welding of the contacts. Key switches would not last as long , so only need to energize the coil of the relay and power is to the starter solenoid. They are simple to fix if trained, took me years to learn as no one was offering to hands on train. Simon C
So funny enough after thinking MY issue was resolved, I went to start my machine yesterday. Been sitting for a week and the temps the past few days were right around 30 with lows at night going into the teens. Sure enough it didn’t start, I had to jump it with my truck. Long story short even though all of my cables and connections are brand new and 2 years ago the battery tested good, I’m betting I have a dead cell or something. When there is enough power the machine cranks no issue, so it’s not the starter. Just ironic the battery tests good but yet it’s got to be the problem.
Yeah I put all new cables and battery in 4 years ago. The other day it was sluggish and wouldn't start. I plugged in the solar charger for just a while and it cranked right up. I hope my group 31 Interstate battery isn't getting weak already.
Maybe run a load test batteries are funny things I had a truck start on a cold morning moved it 100 feet shut off loaded up went to start stone dead in 10 minutes tried plugging in and out new relay maybe starter hit harder first try but second try just spinning my buddy who’s a heavy equipment mechanic was supposed to stop by on the weekend with a new relay and harness but said truck won’t start anyway left the key in her if a thief can get her started no great loss and maybe can learn something
Aaaannd mine won't start this morning. Temps have been down in the 30s but it is up to about 65 now. I plugged in the wire I have jumped off a deep cycle battery that remains on the solar charger for a while like I did the other day. Glowed it up for about 10 seconds and it just sluggishly goes rowr rowr rowr. These dang New Hollands are just weak starters in the least bit of cold.
You need to hook quality meter to battery while holding key in start position. If the voltage drops below 9.6 volts in a couple seconds of continuous cranking, batteries (Quantity 2 I am assuming) are no good, unless you have a parasitic load sucking it down. Simon C
I have been trading one of my solar panel connections back and forth between the backhoe and a trolling motor battery and had that one on the boat for a few days since I used it. That connection is on a 100W panel with a charge controller. A couple hours connected to the backhoe and a little increase in temp and it fired up. I just broke down and ordered 4 new 10W solar panels to keep all my seldom used batteries topped up so I don't have to move any panels around. 10W panels only put out 6 tenths of an amp at full power so they don't need charge controllers.
Always remember that bad or insufficiently charged batteries can take out a starter in short order. When the starter is doing the rowr, rowr, rowr, noise the amps are usually high and voltage low. That is when they damage solenoid contacts and starter. Good to have good batteries and something to keep them charged up. Simon C
Update buddy stopped by for 20 minutes job installing the new harness and relay no change 5 hours later ended up back at removing the starter motor and checking the flywheel started from the batteries back had a burnt positive cable from lower battery installed new and new positive to starter and bypass disconnect switch hooked up remote switch start to start while listening to the starter about every 5 times starter would engage and start tried turning the flywheel and and starting so pretty much ruled out flywheel maybe another damn bad starter with 10 starts on it on a nice 20 degree day with the wind and snow blowing
Count the how many teeth are on the starter pinon gear. You will to know what an OEM starter has for a tooth count. It is not unusual for someone to replace a starter with one tooth too many on it. It will turn the engine but it will be slow and make growling noises. And it will damage the ring gear. I bought a tractor and the someone put the wrong starter on it. It cost me a lot of time and money, and a really good parts man to figure it out.
Man that sucks! Did you buy these starters from DB Electric?
The one that had the wrong number of teeth on it, was on the tractor when I bought it. It was Delco-Remy 35MT. There were many thousands of them made. They were configured differently depending on what engine they were assembled for. In my situation it was the correct starter ,but someone replaced the Bendix Drive with the wrong one. I think any construction machine could have a Bendix drive with the wrong number of teeth be mistakenly replaced for a particular application.
@Badco
the starter part number is 18024n got it from car quest in canada advance auto in states i thought went we found the burned positive cable on the lower battery would make sense not getting the kick in colder weather but no change what i find confusing is temp related above 40 degrees starts like new below only spin and not engage after replacing few cables and bypassing bunch of stuff starter would engage and start shut off try again only spin then 5 times later would kick in and start when first got the it in june would start ok sometimes then would engage but turn slow and speed up and start so started changing cables and cleaning gounds after that started like new till below 40 the saga continues
Have you voltage drop tested all the battery cables, the negative side cables, the frame ground and engine ground, the control circuit cables right through to the Starter S-Terminal .. These tests are easy to do and will reveal immediately what is wrong. If you don't know for sure how to do, can walk you through a few at a time. Otherwise you are spinning your wheels. Simon C
After I fixed that short through the starter case on my 555D it starts like a champ in the cold. I went and started it at 20° the other day, no problemo. Didn't even plug the block heater in, just held down the thermo-start button for about 30 seconds and then hit the starter; away she went. But that shouldn't be your problem if you replaced the starter.
I'm just running a single battery on mine and have been thinking about double. Looked it up last night to kind of get familiar with the set-up. The cost of batteries is juuusssssttt a little high though - and I need one for my F150 --sheeesh. Of course when I do the double set-up, I'll heck the cables as well so...cha-ching.
Be aware, voltage drop tests are performed in a live circuit. In other words when cranking if checking a starter circuit.
edgephoto Senior Member Be aware, voltage drop tests are performed in a live circuit. In other words when cranking if checking a starter circuit. Yes you need to be flowing some current to do voltage drop testing, even if just a little as when you have a horrible connection all green. A horrible connection can often light up a test light, but can't fool my Fluke meter as the voltage drop will be recorded and way too high indicating needing a repair such as when someone stabs a battery cable through the skin and then the salt gets into the cable and no start. Have found too many green connections that were hiding under tape, heatshrink or behind something. Simon C
yes we finding lots of green stuff hiding we had one volt drop when cranking before but after finding the lower cable burnt by the post didnt even spark when touched the frame were going to inspect all the cables again when installing another new starter last time we started at the batteries and worked the way back
got back to it ran a file around the whole flywheel but teeth all looked good grinded all connections tested disconnect switch all good but bottom battery is always live installed new starter and fired right up like new again but for how long think the old girl still has a few tricks to play this machine is one to be parked with bucket locked up position for now
That’s a good idea. Just like the putting on the plow, keeps it from snowing.
Hope it remains working for you this time. It could be worse!
Who had THAT bright idea??
Like Ford with the Explorer and the slave cylinder inside the bell housing. lol
They copied Corvette slave placement on that one. On my Z06 I had to start at the rear and remove the transaxle and work forward to replace the clutch. It shucked the pilot bearing which caused the throwout bearing collar to break.
My latest fail to start issue makes me feel pretty stupid. Turned out to be a low battery charge. Battery voltage read 12.3 volts and engine consistently turned over slow but wouldn't fire off. I keep my battery plugged into a solar panel with a charge controller on it. The panel had gotten dirty and lost it's efficiency. I cleaned the panel and it came back to reading a charge. The kicker is I had a group 27 deep cycle battery that had been sitting on a NOCO maintainer in the garage that I swapped into the backhoe and had the same slow turn over and non start symptom. Terminals were clean as could be and no sign of corrosion. While I had that battery in I put the battery out of the backhoe on my 6 amp trickle charger and it immediately pegged the amp meter indicating the charge was low. It took all afternoon, all night, and part of the next day for it to drop down and indicate a full charge. Put the charged group 31 battery back in the hoe and it has glowed up and started ever since. After all that I put the deep cycle battery on the charger and it too needed charging. The NOCO didn't keep it up to snuff. The NOCO is intended for a small motorcycle battery and said in the book it wasn't for large deep cycle batteries but it would turn it's LED green indicating full charge.
I bought a 20 watt solar charger about 2 weeks ago. It’s been on the machine for over a week now and the weather is going to be 40-50 over the next week so who knows if it’s actually going to work. It never has an issue over 40, it’s always the cold nights and starting days or 20-30. Early January is supposed to be cold again so maybe it will work.
Hmmm, I have been topping off my deep cycle boat/garage use battery with my motorcycle trickle charger, or so I thought. Never bothered to read the voltage or do a battery test on it, as it’s only a couple of years old. I read the instructions for the charger and it doesn’t say anything about deep cycle but I have been using it. Might wanna check it as it’s my helper battery during the winter.
I guess good batteries good block heater and little gas in the diesel good to go in cold weather I started up in the mid 20 degree without the block heater just to see how it worked started right up after holding on the heater for 30 seconds don’t know why they say 15 seconds at 40 degrees the colder the day should be able to hold for 2 minutes if needed the ls180 changes with the temperature but seems to max out at 46 seconds but can turn the key off and on to cycle again
Anyway made it outback beaver dam fighting before everything freezes to hard
Hi everyone new year same old headache this machine is on its 3rd new starter over past year same problem as before spinning but not engaging seems like will get about a dozen starts from a new starter then not engaging started 3 weeks ago at 20 degrees plugged in for few hours didn’t engage first try then did on 2nd today finally got up to mid 40tees so started the old deutz fahr fired right up been sitting since November though would try my luck on the 575 did not engage first 5 tries then kicked in and started same as last new starter we had remote ignition hooked directly to the starter last time and would take 5 tries then would kick in then another 5 tries and kick in so at a lost what’s going on
Was planning on getting to the leaking cylinders and milky hydraulic oil issue but have to wait till the starting issue can get fixed last time at 20 degrees I believe the filter under the cab was frozen as it was screaming and the loader would only jerk a inch at a time up or down then after 10 minutes the screaming stopped and the loader would lift again not sure where the water is getting in the previous owner cross threaded cap could have been from that that’s fixed now and storage box is good inside and holes are draining good
If you haven't changed them yet get some new 2/0 cables made for it. If you don't need the negative disconnect just measure the cable around that and eliminate it. Makes one less place to lose current.
If the solenoid is not pulling in and the starter is just spinning, then you have a current problem in your ignition circuit. This is a clear case of when a separate relay may be useful. Still should find the ignition circuit problems.
Things done so far new cables except one from disconnect to frame disconnect tested and good new batteries load tested good voltage drop test to starter good ignition relay and harness replaced even with a remote ignition standing at the stater hitting directly would spin about 5 times then engage then again about 5 times engage was wondering about if was the right starter if has to many teeth on the piñon but we went over the hole flywheel last time and see no evidence of the gears hitting on the flywheel or starter but then if new starter installed then good to go for at least a dozen starts till not engaging again it’s a head scratcher
Ill be honest, from what you describe above, it surly sounds like a starter/ring gear interphase problem. I do not think that you would necessarily see any evidence on the ring gear if the starter had 1 too many teeth, however, it may not want to mesh correctly. Maybe the starters are not the right gear count? Maybe the ring gear was replaced with a different pitch ring?
Wanted to tell you that I cleaned up a ring gear for a guy, only to find out that the starter would kick out but grinding on the ring gear. He had it for 5 years before I came around, So I removed and measured the length of stroke of the gear and told him it was the wrong starter. He disagreed and said he would look into it. He later told me that he got another starter that had more stroke and problem solved. He had a wrong starter on it for 5 years and thought it was good. Took me 5 hours to clean the ring gear teeth. Will fit does not mean will work. By the way if the solenoid kicks out and the starter is spinning but nothing is turning on the ring gear, the Control circuit is good, so are the cables and starter is good. Problem is wrong application if that is what it is doing. Maybe explain your Post#69 what you mean by hitting directly. Not sure what you mean. Simon C
That’s interesting what I meant was putting power directly to the solenoid bypassing the ignition side but my buddy was doing that who’s a mobile equipment mechanic that stopped by to try and figure this out and he showed me about every 5th try would engage but what I don’t understand is throw a new starter on and starts like new for first dozen or so times I don’t know if there’s a few different starters for this motor the one I’ve got 3 times is showing to fit this machine it’s brand new think made by boush
I guess you have already covered this but your starter should have a 10 tooth drive gear.
If he could make it engage every 5th time only, the starter is junk or your cable connections and grounds are junk. Jumping solenoid direct bypasses the entire control circuit. The person doing the jumping is the control circuit. Possibly his jumper is faulty, have seen many times before. It should kick out the gear and spin 5 times out of 5 tries. If not only three things can be faulty: Starter, Cables and connections, or jumper mechanism. Those are your 3 choices. Simon C
One other possibility is the starter when bolted in was not turned back a hair from ring gear and has no freeplay between ring gear and bendix gear. Have seen twice in my life. Simon C
That’s how we tested the new starter before this one decided must be the starter replaced it and will start life new as many times as you like but then it will go back to not engaging again I think everything is good to the starter don’t know if these had shims on the original one I’m thinking if the pinion gear is only catching the top of the flywheel and hit on the top of the gear and be bent up to a point where it spins above the flywheel that’s why we get maybe 20 good starts before it continues to get worse but don’t know I’m not a mechanic
Parts manual doesn't show any shims and mine had none. It lists a Bosch or Iskra starter but I imagine they are interchangeable.
I pulled the starter on and off 4-5 times before I told the owner it was wrong. Two weeks later he informed me that he was wrong, and that he had gotten a different unit and now it started flawlessly. Not on your job, but thinking something is not fitting right. Is there any bad teeth areas on the ring gear that need to be cleaned up with a die grinder. Simon C
We turned it all full around and did touch up a little but seamed to be in good shape didn’t see any broken teeth or spots that looked hit I think he said it generally stops in 2 locations when engine shuts down
That’s part of the problem, flywheel usually stops a certain spots due to compression. It may be that the bendix stroke is just a little too short but if it just spinning 4 out of 5 times, that means the solenoid contacts did not get full voltage or current to stroke out. I can say, I have seen problems on flywheel and have had to change a few but if the bendix is not stroking out, that won’t matter. You could try shimming one of the bolts, put a lock washer between the starter and bell housing and see if that takes a little pressure off.
That’s exactly what I was thinking with the shims would all the bolts need one I think it’s something to do with alignment going out after 20 starts if that’s possible when we did the voltage drop test only lost .1 volt to the starter which was good why would the new starter run great if was voltage problem I would think would start with same issue don’t think this is a new problem previous owner replaced starter but when I first got it it would turn over slowly and speed up and start till I changed few cables and cleaned everything then spun fast and fired up for 20 starts maybe that’s why the machine only has 3000 hours nobody could start it
I figured out one that was boosted for 15 years to start. Would not start from own new batteries. Ground cable had been removed by a dealership to pull out a motor, was never hooked backup. Starter was loose on flywheel housing and bolts were so hard to get at and so covered with dirt., no ground and no start. Boost was adding ground to unit so it would start. When I was done, just touching the start button it was going. Some are easier than others to figure out. Simon C
Don’t forget. We change all the big red cables and maybe the big black one, trying to fix a starting issue but most people forget, that usually there is this teeny 14 gauge, sometimes 12 gauge black wire, that is usually going to starter but could be anywhere, that is the ground circuit for the pulling in thingy that is usually but not always, at the starter. So if the starter, is just spinning and the bendix hasen’t thrown itself out, I would make damn sure that ground is goodntight before changing another starter. Can not honestly say how many times people forget this.
Good point we did find several small think were ignition ground wires that the previous owner left off when we were installing the first new starter we found probably 3 other issues that could have been a problem to fixed all installed new starter and everything going like new until spins once and engage 2nd try then 2-4 times before engaging and will continue to worsen until installation of another new starter my parts guy is great said would give all the starters I need but not fun
Would be god to see a picture of this thing installed in the machine, to be able to see the cable connections on it. Simon C
Ground wise if it's a cab it should have 4 ground cables including the ground disconnect if that is still installed. Mine had a main ground from the battery to the disconnect switch. The switched side of the disconnect it had a cable going to the ground lug on the starter and a braided ground going to the frame. At the starter it has another cable going from one of the starter bolts to the cab. All are needed since the engine and cab are rubber mounted. When I had new cables made I eliminated the disconnect switch and removed it. My main ground now goes directly from the battery to the ground lug on the starter. The braided cable was long enough to relocate to the same ground lug on the starter. When I replaced my starter I found the cab ground had been left disconnected.
Simon im going to try and get a few pictures later today dont know how much can be seen its buried way back in yes 575 its same as yours mine i know the ground goes straight to one of the batteries and positive also straight to the power tower that the 2 batteries connect on my braided cable goes from started to frame im going to try to get further into over the weekend
This thread has possibilities of breaking the existing record. 60 pages to go!
Let’s go for it what’s got me stumped is throw a new starter in and starts like new for 20-30 times if the problem is still there wouldn’t the same problem be there even with the new starter
Not necessarily. You didn't buy one of those cheap ass overseas made starter motors did you?
Probably is made by Bosch isn’t everything made over seas these days it comes with lifetime warranty or until you get tired of changing them and get a good rebuild
Lets eliminate something right now. Remove all the cables from your starter motor. Use jumper cables off another 12V vehicle, go from the jumper vehicles battery to the positive post on the starter solenoid and the ground on the starter housing. Jump the solenoid with a screwdriver and tell me what happens.
Believe we did this on the starter before bypassing everything and it only engaged about every 5 times then put on new starter and fired up right away
What does it do the 4 times it didn't engage? Did it do anything?
Can hear it spinning freely not hitting anything or funny noise and when does engage nice and smooth then again 5-6 times till it engages again then we changed the starter and starts and will keep engaging and starting good till after 30-40 times starts to spin maybe one time then engage then next 2-3 times will continue to worsen
Have ypu checked the ring gear
The plunger in the solenoid could be biding in the bore. Also the Bendix drive should be checked to determine if it is moving freely on the armature shaft.
This sounds like either a solenoid not kicking the gear in or a bad drive gear clutch. The drive gear has a one way clutch that engages one direction and allows it to spin in the other. My money is on failing drive gear clutches. I would tell my supplier to get one from a different supplier or just get a refund and shop somewhere else. Several of us have purchased from DB Electrical and I haven't heard anyone complain about their products. I would NOT play around with shimming anything. The fact that it engages at times with no problems indicates it is in the proper location and has the right mesh. If it was a bad spot on the ring gear it would make a grinding noise when it stops on that spot. Something IS causing the solenoids or drive mechanisms to fail. Most likely the supplier they are coming from has a bad batch and it has nothing to do with your machine. You start messing around with factory tolerances and you are likely to tear up a flywheel ring gear.
Right on 575 i took some photos and a short video that simon wanted to see in the video can hear the sound dont know if ill be able to load on this site but sent them off to my buddy and we have the same plan must be a bad batch the plan now is to take the starter into a good rebuilder he know for testing then will know where things stand then install the rebuild take the crap back to car quest and get a new replacement and sell try to cover some of the time lost anybody looking for new starter haha special sale
Take pics of the ring gear and post those while that stater motor is off. A bad ring gear will stop at only 2 places normally. It seems the common denominator here is the ring gear itself
We went all around the gear last time the starter was off to check and file down any rough spots everything was good no damages to today tried it 10 times and will only spin tapped on it few times didn’t change anything
Hard to photograph [
In post # 102 there is a white push on connector on I believe the starter solenoid switching terminal. Have had to tighten one up in the past that was intermittent starting, was way up on small mountain as a communications tower power source. Never had a no start again. It was not tight enough on the spade. Make sure it is tight. Simon C
I, also would like to see the ring gear but if the starter is spinning away, without throwing the bendix out, it would seem you have an ignition circuit problem.
I noticed in your second photo, on one of the starter bolts, I see a few black and white, grey , whatever wires, I would take the bolt off and seperate them and make sure they are shiny and use a star washer to clamp them. They are most certainly you ignition grounds and probably all your gauges. I also just noticed, someone has shrink wrapped them, cut it open, so you can see everything.
I’ll check that again i wiggled that in and out when it was spinning this afternoon seems to have pushed on tight
I was about to suggest he disconnect the white push on connector and try running a jumper wire direct from the battery positive cable to that terminal on the starter. That would bypass the ignition switch and relay. @Badco that positive cable arrangement in the last picture looks like a fire hazard. I would figure out some way to route that cable so it isn't touching the frame. I don't even like how close the bottom connection is but that top one is going to rub through. I see it has a second layer of protection but you don't want it touching ground. I have a salvage yard about 50 miles north of me and I would venture to guess half the machines in their yard were burned. I was surprised at how common it was for machines to catch fire.
Yes I could move it to the left side of the positive cable that runs to the starter I guess that’s the way the duel battery set is I made a cover for it just removed to take pictures
You should have seen the way the previous owner had the battery set up think the new batteries were to tall because they one on top of each other and a metal plate supported the top he had the metal plate sitting on top of the lower battery posts with only a cut up tire tube holding up the top battery luckily no caboom
I would suggest that you clean this connection.
Needs a star washer also.
This ground also seems pretty sketchy the braided line from the starter and the ground from the disconnect switch ground here but the frame is painted behind guess it’s supposed to ground through the stud welded to the frame
Bottom line is install new starter and will start like new for few months 20-30 times if the problem is anywhere else I would think it would be the same issue with the new stater spinning and not engaging
Just wanted to mention about your picture of the ground strap, that new copper is bright in coulour, then turns progressively black. Once it is black enough if you meter it under load it will not carry current. Where the braided part enters the clip and is stamped together, they sometimes are badly corroded, but not that visible. I see another copper lug under the braided strap. Buff the paint to bare steel right beside these 2 ground cables and put one test lead on it while putting the other test lead on dead center of the Negative battery post while someone else tries to start. If the meter reads more than 0.4 Volts during the cranking you will need to repair. Simon C
Thanks for that if it’s bad can the regular ground cable be used or does it have to be braided
Braided straps are often used in engine compartments that get too hot for the cover of the copper cable. The flat straps are obviously not affected by the heat and people often use what is handy. But if corroded they are equally junk. Simon C
Either way, before you invest in another starter, I would do some retrofitting and some wiring changes. It’s the attention to detail, that matters here. I think altogether, we have found 5 or 6 possible trouble areas, that need addressing.
Went over again cleaning and testing found one volt drop from ignition key to starter powered directly from battery to starter still spinning and engaged about 5-6 times so pulled out again and tested at rebuilder found solenoid ok but clutch’s were junk gear was rough turning problem said odd ball could only get longer version shaft so took back and got refund and ordered new from dealer extra 250.00 not Bosch it’s iskra brand dealer said they had same problem with skid steer and going through Bosch switch to this brand and never had another issue
This time starter seamed to be hitting harder and found half dozen teeth on ring gear shiny on end last starter only was spinning read on the interwebbs a 97 tooth ring gear used a 10 tooth starter 124 and 129 use 9 tooth starter this one was 10 tooth with 124 ring gear but rebuild guy said wouldn’t make a difference only spin faster so hopefully will find out why this pos machine is eating starters
In post #71 my description of a wrong starter the guy had for 5 years was pretty close. Will fit does not mean will run. Glad you are getting to the root of the problem. Make sure to give a little backlash to the new one so the clutch gear does not get hung up and keep running. Simon C
I hope this does it if this starter is done after 20-30 starts I’ll be dragging it outback to lay to rest beside this old girl late 40tees dragline parked in 75 was running at the time probably have better luck firing it up
That ring gear is not pristine. May need a little filing. Hopefully you now have it sorted out. Id sure hate to see her lost to the bone yard!
Glad you got it going. Hopefully it will provide many starts to come.
Yes 575 you were right on about the starter haven’t got the new one in yet waiting for the dealer to get it in
That ring gear is far from pristine, spend an hour with a small file and clean that thing up if its readily accessible. All the crap you've spent time on with this problem, start with the simple stuff first. Not finding fault with your efforts but that ring gear is crying for some love.
I agree, I looked close at that photo and wished I didn’t. Looked good from 5 feet.
Yes Harley I’m going to get filing on I’ve been told myself I look pretty good from far away to do you think this could cause the machine to destroy the starters there’s no teeth missing or chunks out little knarrling on the ends
Ring gears get some wear in normal operation. More so in the two spots the engine will stop at. Have you rotated to see what the teeth look like on the less worn portions? What did the teeth look like on the starter drive? Those teeth almost look like the drive gear isn't getting full depth of contact. All of the listings I found say you should have a 10 tooth starter drive gear. I guess the drive gear diameter could vary if you got a bad part. Could be the failure to mesh properly is wiping out the drive clutch?
I did go all the way around with my file only found the one area of maybe 6 teeth on the ring gear that looked hit forced of the burrs and made flat areas flat again does look like only catching the tip of the gear in the 2areas it kicks in the teeth on the old starter looked good no damage I took a picture just because I found a number but shows what the rest of the gear looks like
Hopefully you used the file to recreate the angle at the end of the teeth. This helps the starter gear to slide over the edge, and onto the flat gear portion. The flywheel part number is showing discontinued. The good news is that the ring gear is not part of the flywheel and is purchased separately. The fact that Messicks has 5 in stock tells me they are often replaced. #83949153 RING GEAR New Holland #83949153 RING GEAR RING GEAR www.messicks.com
So to remove the flywheel and ring gear would involve dropping the transmission maybe this is the reason the previous owner threw a new starter on and sent it down the road for the cost would be more than the machine is worth
It doesn't look that bad to me. Definitely not pull the transmission bad.
I would not pull that transmission, as I have seen way worse. You either had the wrong starter for gear kick out distance or made wrong some other way. Make sure the ramps on the teeth are good to help the gear go in, that is all I would suggest. Simon C
Agree with NH575E! Was just point out that you wouldn't need a flywheel if the ring gear went bad.
Meh, looks bad but definitely not that bad. I have been known to re-clock a flywheel if teeth are bad at the 2 spots but that flywheel probably looks better than mine. Looks like it had a weak bendix at one point or bad contacts and wasn’t getting a full throw. As long as you took the high edges off, it shouldn’t hurt the new and hopefully correct starter. Lol Let us know how she starts.
Well got the new starter in and back in business starting like new again did a yippee and a little guarded happy dance but been here before starter has 3 starts on it now and counting so we’ll see in the next 17-27 starts new starter body is good inch longer very close to fit the fuel filter and snout looks 3/4 inch longer hopefully done with this but time will tell
This was the worse teeth on the ring gear believe was from the last starter the new starter was fine engaging in them
That is actually very good compared to one that I fixed. Should run fine if starter is okay. Simon C
A longer snout on the new starter certainly puts the old starter in question. That could explain the lack of proper engagement.
Hi guys Just a update to maybe help someone else before going through starter nightmare Was in the dealer chatting and found out there was a starter change bulletin Prior to 1998 the Bosch starter after that Only the ishca starter will work its longer with bigger throw wish I would have found this out 4 starters ago
Thanks for sharing!
Thanks for the update. I wish I would have kept my old starter. I thought it was a Bosch but now I'm not sure. Pretty sure the replacement I bought had no name on it. My machine was a late 98 manufactured date and went in service in January 99.
Not sure how to read the serial number for the date but the earliest date I found on the machine was September 99 wish I would have got the machine with the original starter but the previous owner installed the Bosch and don’t know how many he replaced so when I got it had about 10 starts left in it that’s probably why he wanted to sell it fast
That’s the issues with cores. You change them out and without looking extremely close, don’t notice a difference. Then you’re changing out something that wasn’t right to begin with. Guess that’s a vote for repairing what you have. Can only think of one starter/altenater shop, still open around here. The Amazon/China replacement, cheaper than you can have rebuilt stuff is killing us.
I bought my starter outright, no core. Been working fine since 11/17. I don't think the starter was even my problem. I eventually had to replace the cables and upgraded the battery to a group 31. I still seem to have sluggish starting in the winter but the last time I found my solar charger wasn't keeping the battery up to snuff so there's that.
My batteries are starting to go. I plan to replace them before the cold white stuff gets here but have a whole bunch of other things going on. Thats life.
My starter nightmare began when the previous owner replaced it with one that looked identical to to the OEM starter. The replacement he used had the wrong number of teeth on the Bendix drive. It would start the motor , but it had a low (sluggish) cranking speed.
Or, the guy says, no, it is not incorrect, that is the updated one....often BS. Problem with repairing what you have is; 1. hard to find a shop that does it. 2. When he replaces parts, they are most likely sourced from China anyhow. Cannot blame the rebuilder, that's what is available in todays world.
Hi gents Well the nightmare is back starter spinning for 5 seconds before engaging only does on first start of the day so started checking from the 2 batteries back towards the starter remove the cables load tested good cleaned cables back to the starter found loose positive on lower battery and the 2 ground cables on the disconnect switch Removed the disconnect switch and now both batteries grounded to the frame as the strap ground from the starter After opening the disconnect found corrosion inside don’t have a diagram of the wiring showing the original hookup for the starter and 2 batteries but as of now it goes ground from starter to ground on top battery and ground from top battery to frame lower battery ground to frame strap ground from starter to frame same location as battery grounds and positive to tower along with both positive from batteries Anyway tried starting with this setup but same spinning maybe could be right hookup now but starter already done My equipment mechanic buddy said he’s throwing the towel in on this suggest to throw rebuilt starter on and send it down the road
Post a few pictures from different angles of your Battery box and starter cables from different angles and maybe something will be obvious to one of us. Simon C
I wouldn't give up. How clean is this machine? Could just be a weak Bendix solenoid. Is the started getting wet with water or oil?
Hurry it’s photo day
Part 2
I took a short 10 second video to hear the spin and engage that sent my equipment mechanic running but have no idea how to load here Harley pretty clean and dry Last 100 hours I know of gone through 4 starters maybe the first 3 were wrong starters but not sure as the charge for starters happened in 98 mine 99-2000 but could have a 98 engine in it at this point anything possible
Post#153 first photo shows a ground strap that is all buffed up. Was there any green on it in the past that was buffed off that went into the crimp that is on the stud. Cause if anything went into the crimp that can't be seen you will end up with loss of potential in the middle of a cranking attempt and starter can kick back out. What does that flat ground strap bolt to just for reference. Simon C
Yur master disconnect switch could use some cleaning also with a Scotch Brite pad or similiar. Simon C
It may have Simon the other end goes to the lower bolt on the starter shown in the 3rd photo that strap was thinking to replace but not sure if needed as the ground the runs from the top bolt of the starter goes to the top battery and then runs down to group of 3 cables bolts to frame I removed that silly disconnect switch as it was already bypassed by the ground from the starter to the battery Now both batteries grounded straight to the frame with the strap ground
Looks as clean as it gets. This might be a situation, where I would install a separate Ford style relay, from the ignition wire, to the starter itself. Then a positive, direct from the batteries, through the relay, to the starter itself. Possibly even putting in a direct but fused from batteries through a push button momentary starting switch, through new relay, to starter.
This is a good suggestion for control harness that is tired and weak for a simple by-pass and tends to take way longer to burn out start switches this way. Just want to mention that it is common for starters to kick back out and loose engagement after 5 seconds or so because there is a loss of potential happening on the positive side or the negative side. This is the reason I use 2 Fluke Recording meters when testing start circuits to see if there was a poor connection which translates into loss of potential usually a few seconds into a crank. Of course the first test is to see how far down the battery dropped in a 5-10 second attempt. Found one like this not so long ago on a neutral safety switch that would drop out after a few seconds and caused a 1 volt loss at Starter "S" terminal. Fixed the connections and has not died since. Simon C