Any idea what causes the lack of power all the way around and far as digging power. Bout the only thing that shows strength is curling the bucket. Also shifting boom to left works good but to the right very very slow and whines a little. I did notice at the end of the day today the swivel on the left cyl. where the crossover hose connects to and goes to the right cyl on boom is leaking pretty good. Goona get that fixed but that isnt all my problems is it??
front bucket has good power
Loss of power to dig with the hoe seems to be more noticable when the pressure is down than in the loader. You must put a gage in the test port and check the main relief setting. Check it on the loader circuit and on the hoe. the pressure should be the same even if low. If the loader is up to pressure and the hoe is low, suspect a power beyond oring failure. I would chech the spool travel on your circuits if there is a speed difference right to left. Lots of times the swing pedal linkage wears so the pedals lay to flat and the spool is not being fully activated. Linkage can be adjusted in the control tower to compensate for wear. This presumes a Case control setup with foot swing. Keep us posted. Swivel just makes a mess and costs lots toreplace oil but unless it is pouring out will not affect digging pressure.
I will check out my book to see if I can find these test ports and have them checked. What type of gage do i need to use for this. I should buy one if not too expensive. The oil does run out the swivel pretty good. and yes i do have the 2 foot pedal controls for the swing
Is this a misprint??? 210.00 for a swivel??? Can they be rebuilt??
PA; I used a new oxygen regulator gauge to check mine. I used a grease gun hose to do the connection. Wear safety glasses and DO NOT look directly at the gauge when pressure is applied to it.
And then NEVER use that gauge for Oxygen, see the thread on cylinders exploding.
Cant find that one delmer. So if I go to like and auto zone to rent a gauge what typ do i ask for
Good info Delmer. I have gotten back online because I remembered about the explosive situation created if the gauge was ever used for oxygen after oil has contaminated it. I read extensively a couple of weeks ago about it. One had exploded and made the news. Unfortunately the man was looking at the gauge when it exploded. He only suffered minor injuries. A google search of exploding oxygen gauges with oil contamination will show a lot of information about them. It isn't just oil in the gauge or hose that can create the hazard but other kinds of contaminates as well. PA ; You can buy that gauge for less than $15.00 in a almost every hardware, farm supply and welding supply store.
Are these tests hard to do or hard to get at test ports?
Good point about never using that gage for oxygen, I once heard of an explsion caused by coal dust in the regulators. The high pressure can cause combustion when the bottle is turned open causing heat hot enough to ignite materials in the regulators. The test port is on the valve and accessed by removing a plug on the panel on the rh side ahead of the fender on the cab or platform interior
U dont have to bleed hydraulic lines when drain and change filter?? I lost everything tonight. No movement in hoe cant put down or up and front bucket pretty much nothing.. jerks a little
Sounds like low on fluid or restriction/air entering pump. Suction screen/strainer
IS there any quick check to see if its the pump or is everything based on flow test results? Only thing I did see is the control valve for hoe and control valve for loader bucket are both wet from fluid. Loader bucket more so than hoe. Last night i just got done backdragging with loader bucket and went to bring up boom and outtriggers all the way and all the levers were dead. i reved the engine up some and pulled all levers back and whining started up towards front end. I just changed fluid this past weekend and the sight glass is COMPLETELY full.. But it did turn white milky color in first 2 minutes of operation but i did not completely flush the system. Wonder if it could be air too along with mositure. Can hyd. system get somewhat air locked?? Im lost
You will have to check and eliminate all the above. Did the filter canister come loose ? A collapsed hose on the suction side is another possibility. They can have an internal layer separate and not be obvious on the outside. You could clean those wet spots with solvent. Then with the engine off you could charge the system with 10 to 15 psi of air through the hydraulic filler opening. The leak may be quite obvious. If This is the correct picture of your set up you can see there are a lot of slip-on hoses in the suction side that may be the problem. Last thing after eliminating all those possibilities is that it may be the pump it self. In regards to the swivel that is leaking look at it closely, it may have an snap ring holding it together. If does it is most likely resealable with new O rings.
so 5,1,4,3 are all suction hoses? WHat is their purpose? So do i take all these suction lines off to check and clean? And yes that swivel does have a C clip on the outside of it
Yes PA, if they are anchored with a hose clamp they are suction side. I wouldn't take them off until the other causes are checked out. Have you tried pressurizing the system ? If you do that and no leaks appear, start the engine and see if the loader or backhoe will do anything. If nothing works you have air entering somewhere , a blockage or the the pump has problem. Is the pump to engine coupling is OK ? If All else fails I guess the next thing would be to remove the suction hose from the pump and see if there is a free flow of oil going to it. The filter my impede the flow when you do this. You may have to temporarily remove it . Be sure no pressure is in the system before you remove that hose from the pump or you will be getting an expensive bath ! Have you by any chance had the pressure relief adjustment apart or tried adjusting it ? There is a chance the lock nut on it is loose and the screw has somehow caused a problem.
The canister is tight.. thats all i know for sure. And that there is no major leaks where I can see wet spots on ground? I just wanna know what to dive into tonight and in what order. Im also wanting to order a pump to have it at the house in case it is bad cuz im off work thurs friday sat and sunday and this hoe has to be running.. Does the suction lines supply air to pump? Is that their job? If so and i unhook them one by one at each joint or each run at pump and check to see if I have movement in boom? And no ive never adjusted anything for hyd?? Id even know where that would be and that could be it because Ive always thought from day one of owning this machine it should have more power than it has. I assumed it was from age ...Little wore out
Those suction lines are for oil only to the pump. Absolutely no air can be entering the system. If there is, the oil will appear to be white and the pump may be whine-ing or even growling. Generally you can see the tiny air bubbles in the oil. A new pump is an option I would consider myself. If the one you have now seems weak and has a lot of hours on it, it would be a good investment, plus you would have spare that may be rebuild-able. If you do replace it be sure to get the bushings for the pump to engine coupling. I would most likely replace those suction hoses at the same time as the pump replacement. The system will already be drained. If you don't you can pretty much guess what will happen ! I think you should try to pressurize the hyd. reservoir with air and see if anything works first though. Hopefully Alrman or Melben or Goose will read this and offer some help. My knowledge is like a mouse to an elephant in comparison to them.
would hoe operate if one of these suction lines are and has been unhooked? There a line that runs really close to same location in the pic u sent me that is unhooked and has been for years? I thought it was some type of breather hose.. but its rubber that i believe turns into steel line and comes from front of machine. I will take a close look tonight of where its coming from. but it ends fairly close to starter or just behind it I think.. And it runs along frame rail
I'm not any of those guys, but this is a very basic system with a very basic problem. You really need to eliminate all of the simple issues first before anybody can give you any meaningful advice. If the fluid turned milky, then it either has air or water in it. The air would be coming from a leak on the suction side (one of those hoses etc) maybe worsened by a plugged filter or even worse, a collapsed hose. A hydraulic pump that gets air in it won't develop much suction and won't prime itself if it's getting air instead of oil. If the oil is contaminated with water (test by dripping a drop on a surface hot enough to make the oil smoke or burn, if there's water it will sizzle/splatter) then the oil will cavitate worse and the pump will suck worse. Pressurizing the tank like Tinkerer said will turn those suction lines into pressure lines and hopefully help you narrow down your problem. It wouldn't hurt to check the filter/bottom of the tank for metal shavings. If the pump went bad, you're going to want to do a lot more work than just swapping out the pump before you run it again.
what is the best way to pressurize it. Get another plug for the fill res. and install an air fitting?
The best way is to use pipe fittings in the fill opening with a male quick coupler in them. Along with a pressure regulator that most air compressors have. Second best is have someone help you by wrapping a rag around a air gun and apply it to the opening. But be careful of going crazy with the pressure.
Not doubting your advice cuz im doing this test tonight but isnt that tank always pressurized? When I take the fill plug out it always releases pressure and hisses
or is 10 to 15 lbs more than what that tank would have in it?
Some heavy equipment has pressurized tanks, but I don't think an old Case does. It doesn't have an air compressor or turbo, so where would the pressure come from? If the suction hose is leaking then it sure could build up pressure in the tank. I like to drill a hole in a cap big enough to put a rubber valve stem in, and use that to fill and check pressure. If you do it that way you can run the machine and see how much pressure it builds up from running. You mentioned a hose running alonside that has been disconnected, that could be the original suction line that somebody replaced with a hose that wasn't designed for suction, just a guess.
ok so that i quit bugging the %^$%^ out of you guys im gonna apply 10 to 15 lbs of pressure with machine off and look for leaks then with pressure applied start machine and see if anything can move?
and if I have a suction line leak would i hear it when applied pressure in tank and engine off?
You'll only hear the leak if you drain the tank and lines first. You'll be looking for a seeping hose, if there's oil in the hose that's what will leak out. It helps to clean the hose ends as best possible and dust them so the oil shows up better.
Ifn the system was out of oil you would hear air leaking after you pump it up with air. But I am assuming you have it full of oil. In that situation you should see oil seeping or even gushing somewhere. Do you happen to still have the old filter you took out ? If you do have it, cut it open and look for shiny stuff. Be very careful with the cutting PA,it doesn't sound like you have time to go and get stitches. Have you looked at the hydraulic pump to engine coupling with the engine running ? Maybe the stupid thing is broken and the pump isn't even turning.
Came home from work with fittings to put together to apply air to filler tank and went up to backhoe and the back bucket sagged over night and was all but on the ground and had to drive it down to my basement door. So started it up grabbed the lever and up it came?? So i didnt loose all hydraulics??? So do I still do the pressure thing in the tank or move onto something else. I will check coupler now.. But would the backhoe still dig if it wasnt working? I mean i would bet I could go out there right now and dig a stump out but it struggles to lift a full bucket of dirt out of the hole especially the warmer it gets. and a really dont think there is any major leakage because I have been watching the last 2 or 3 times digging with it.. The only thing I seen was that swivel leak.. I caught a quick squirt of fluid out of it and then one time it ran out steady stream for about 5 sec. and then quit. but it keeps leaking just not a total steady stream all the time
I would first go back and check the quick connects for the backhoe at the rear end, look real good to see if they are still connected good, then take a good look at the pump coupler splines, then looking at tinkerer pic, # 22 cap is where you check your pump pressure, if you don't have the right fitting, remove the cap and drill and tape a 1/8 pipe fitting in the center, have a hose made up with 1/8 on one end and 1/4 on the other about 5 ft long, pick up a wet gauge at 5000 psi, hose should also be a min 5000 psi, yes you can get by with less but safety wise more is better. Start machine at idle and raise loader to the top, read the highest pressure, due the same at full speed read the highest pressure. Most machines if it will build to 200 psi of main relief at idle the pump is not the issue. There could be a nick or trash in the main relief or a power beyond issue with/if the machine has a 4/1 bucket. If your oil level is correct and the breather not stopped up I really do not see a suction issue unless one of those hoses have sucked the inside shut and not allowing oil to flow threw it. Need to get a gauge on it so you Know what pressure your dealing with.
See if the oil is milky when the machine is cold. Use the machine till it gets warmed up/loses power, see if the oil is more milky, see how hot the pump is. I wouldn't bother with the coupler, every one I have seen only lets go once, they never fix themselves once they slip. Unfortunately suction blockages are usually more of a problem with cold oil on a cold day...
the oil is always milky.. im telling ya I drained it sat. and put new filter in oil was nice yellow green color thru sight glass. i started the machine ran all the levers and shut it off. 30 sec to a minute i bet. Milky.. that quick.. grant it i didnt flush everything but for it to turn white that quick?? is that real?? it did it... spline in coupler is turning found test ports everything in back looks good but control valves are a little wet so might have small leak back there but control valve for bucket and test ports and pretty much everything it that location is really wet. when i take those caps off at test ports i take it oil will come out immeadiately?? I cant take one of those off tonight and take it to work with me tomorrow to get right hookups with my gauge and hose? and in my book it shows a tester with two hoses? Im not building that right, just a 5000psi wet gauge with hose. Can you buy these hoses already made up? just buy the correct end i need?
Well PA; If you didn't follow the procedure that we advised and only changed the oil in the reservoir you only removed maybe 1/2 of the contaminated oil. You have to flush all the lines and cylinders with clean oil. So yes your oil will turn milky looking within a couple of minutes after start-up. Does the oil in the sight glass look clear after the machine sits overnight ? If it does your problem is air infiltration.
no im not saying I did it the right way i know i didnt but i didnt have the money for 20 more gallon of fluid last weekend.. but now with a new pump if i need to get a new pump i will be buying the extra to do it the right way this time.. So yeah i wasted 20 gallon of fluid.. i just thought a new filter and 20 gallons of new fluid would improve my performance and it didnt at all.. No its stays milky 24/7 no matter if i let it set a week
If i were to have a bad pump i got other issues right as far as water/air in fluid or does a bad pump do this?
Still sounds to me like a clogged or restricted suction line or screen(if it has a screen). Whining pump is a good clue to this.Hole in suction hose (it can have this and not leak any fluid at that spot). Pumps don't generally work one minute, then fail, then start working again. Any of these problems I (and others previously) describe can and sometimes change with the temp of the oil. Aerated oil looks milky. I'd take some of that oil and boil it at 300 degrees F. and see if it steams water vapor out.
The first thing is you need to determine if you have water and or air in the oil. If it is water, whatever you do don't install a new pump until you completely flush the ENTIRE system and clean the hyd. tank and install a new filter with the old pump still in place. After you do all that then you will find out fairly quickly if air is getting into the oil. Reread post #7 here ;
I don't mean to dampen spirits, but we had 3 580c' that we bought brand new in about 1977. Good loader tractors, but as far as the backhoe were gutless wonders. From the day they were new until we traded them off (one got stolen) We actually kept 580b's when we traded the remaining c's for d's in 1981. Case worked on them numerous times, our mechanic worked on them... The only part on the backhoe that appeared to have any power was the bucket curl. The boom wouldn't pick the back of the machine up if the front was picked up with the loader. If you had the loader in the air, you could pick the back end up. Stick would stall easily trying to fill the bucket, they would not attempt to pick the front of the machine up if you got ahold of a good size rock... Another thing was trying to move yourself around. It better be pretty flat ground or the stick didn't have enough power to push or pull you. Swing was weak too when you were trying to set yourself over a ditch or something. I was young then, but I remember how horrible they were. And most of the operators would choose the older B's we had over the C's...
Come to think of it Tinkerer it has to be water.. At least mostly water.. When I drained the fluid the first 10 sec after plu came out was water, then the white oil started to flow. What about a leaky cyl. I think one of my stabilizers needs repacked?
Do one thing at a time PA. If there was that much water in the system then it is imperative that you flush the entire system first thing. The water may be entering the hyd. reservoir by getting in the 3 inch filler plug opening. I am not familiar with yours. I am guessing it requires an O ring under a flange. Has someone put a standard pipe plug in it ? Don't worry about the stabilizer at this time. Besides no one can advise you on the stabilizer without more details as to why you feel it needs to be repaired. If the wiper seal in the stabilizer is completely destroyed park the machine with out riggers down. Post back after you get the flushing job done and let us know how the hydraulics work.
So new oil and filter with flush even before testing at ports?
Yes 1) trade mark howling 2) "light" colored oil 3) abnormal hydraulic (not pneumatic) cylinder sagging
quote[Come to think of it Tinkerer it has to be water.. At least mostly water.. When I drained the fluid the first 10 sec after plug came out was water, then the white oil started to flow.]unquote Quote[So new oil and filter with flush even before testing at ports ? ]unquote Yes, absolutely without question. Buy 10 more gallons of oil than you think you will need. Because you have to flush those open lines until you get a stream of clear,clean new oil coming out. Don't even think about hooking those lines with the clean oil to the cylinders unless it is connected to the completely bottomed out side. You have to squeeze ALL of the oil out each side of the cylinder piston.The next thing is find and eliminate where the water got in. One heavy rain storm could undo your flush job if it is the wrong and /or unsealed filler plug. I am guessing that is where it is getting in.
ok i will get fluid and filter and im trying to find a pic of the OEM filler plug to see what it looks like. Tinkerer im gonna PM you when its gets closer to flush time to make sure I got it down.. lol.. We a little slow up here in the hills of PA hahaha
here's my hydraulic luid fill plug I'm pretty sure it's original. Ron
If this is the correct drawing, I thought he may have this one / #10. That is the type that would be prone to allow water in the reservoir.
The colored pic that nova supplied is what i have..
# 10 plug is a snap in that covers the fuel sender, the fill and check plug are on the frame side as shown in one post. Mel
Thanks for the clarification Mel. I haven't run a 580C in 30 years. That is where the filler is on my 680C. But as you know the difference between the two machines is like night and day.
Does that 580 have screens on the suction outlets of the shovel frame/sump? It looks like something illustrated, inside the frame on each side behind #1. Looks like a screen through my bifocals.
I cant tell?? Anyone else know? im gonna be flushing tomorrow and i just feel like theres something I could be doing today??? Maybe around the valves that are wet I'll try and snug up fittings see if any are loose?? Im just afraid of going through this flush the correct way and minute I start running it the fluid turns white again???
If you flush it correctly, it can still turn milky looking if you have air entering the system. But after you described how much water you drained the first time you removed the reservoir drain plug you should be OK. I would suggest you print Nova's service manual page and follow the procedure exactly as it describes. Also this thread describes the same procedure with hands on experience.
Hey Tinkerer.. When I start the flush, after I drain tank, should I put air to the tank and listen for leaks before I fill new fuild and filter? And also you changed the filter before flush but the book says after all lines are hooked back up to change it doesnt it? Does it matter when?
I wouldn't apply air to it. You most likely don't have air getting in, if you do, you can do that after you get the system flushed. Just do one thing at a time. Under the first warning in Nova's instruction sheet it specifically tells what to do in regards to the filter and oil Put the new filter in as soon as you are ready to add the new oil. Do not start the engine without a FULL tank of new oil. Next it says unhook ALL the lines AT the cylinders
Well my filter should be here tomorrow and just got 55 Gl of hyd fluid.. Imma flushing tomorrow.
How flammable is hyd. oil? If I need to i'll add some deisel to burn brush piles.. might as well put some of this to good use when I drain??
Not flammable, but it is combustible, about like motor oil, unless it is special oil. It burns hot, but takes a good bit of heat to light.
Thanks Mitch
Don't waste good diesel fuel to help it light/ burn. Just wet a sheet of newspaper with it and it will light quite quickly.