My 580C has sat for about a year. I do start it, but have not been driving it. I started working on the brakes today and the cross shaft was stuck. So I took the lid off the transaxle so I could press the shaft out. I was shocked to find what I would call small steel filings mostly on the largest bull gears, but in other places too. It's in the same place on both gears. About 30% of the gears toward the steering wheel. It's definitely 100% magnetic. It wipes off using a finger and a rag. But very odd that it looks like it was dropped down from above or sprinkled onto the gears. The underside of the lid has the same debris. I don't think condensation could cause this? The breather needs to be replaced as it appears to be mostly clogged. I haven't drained the oil which looks OK, but needs to be changed. I have never been in the transaxle or serviced it. I did drag a magnet around the bottom of the casting and found some much smaller debris(more like metal paste), but no large pieces. The gears look in great condition otherwise. Any ideas of what is going on here? What should be my next steps? Steve
Rust never sleeps... Ed
Some more pictures:
Dendrites or rust crystals dropping from the cover. Note the crystals growing on the cover. Remember they're growing in 3d. When they get too big or too long to be self supporting they fall. Sprinkling your gears. Note they start from the gasket edges of the cover. Likely, where air /moisture enter the gearcase from air/temperature changes.
Great explanation. Thanks! I think the biggest culprit was a clogged breather that probably trapped the moisture inside the case. What is the best way to get this cleaned up? I would imagine this stuff could do some damage to the bearings? My plan was to drain the oil and clean it up all the debris with a magnet and a rag. Do I need to flush out the case with a solvent before I replace the oil? I'm wondering if this is the original transaxle. It's the only red paint I have found on the entire machine. Happy 4th, Steve
Clogged breather had nothing to do with the condensation. If you want to avoid condensation, you'll have to store it inside, or hundreds of miles East of your location. A dessicant breather would help, wouldn't have to be complicated, even a piece of dry wood with the right container will keep the humidity down. There used to be a silica gel cat litter, or other silica gels that work great as dessicants. I don't think much of it fell off the cover, but could be, hard to tell from a pic. Rust expands to many times the volume of the original steel, so that could have come from the cover. Or it could have started on whatever defect was on the surface of the gear or the scratch on the cotter pin. You never would have noticed without taking the cover off, I doubt it would hurt anything to run it, the rust will settle out soon enough.
Yeah, the most I would do is wipe everything off. If you can't move it periodically, spray rust preventer on the unoiled surfaces.
A gallon of diesel fuel in a 2 gallon plastic garden sprayer may do wonders to flush it. After the oil is drained. The red paint is quite common in gear cases and motor blocks.
Tinkerer is probably right, you could even use the oil itself to flush it. Drain into a clean bucket, let it settle, flush into another clean bucket, let settle, repeat until satisfied. Let it settle overnight on top of the cab, siphon most of it back in, and add a gallon or two of new oil.
After all that you will still have rust in transaxle. But be sure and check your case breather it needs to be clean so moisture will escape some what. Also check shifter boot for splits and loose fitting around shifter. That's where a lot of water gets into transaxle.
Delmer- Good point, I would have never known had I not removed the cover. I'm guessing there is a lot worse ones out there the owner didn't know about. I sandblasted the cover and will epoxy paint the cover since I'm painting other parts anyway. It looks like the cover was the food for the rust. The cool-looking dendrite pattern is engraved into the cover. The paint won't stop condensation but should stop the rust from falling onto the innards. The good news is there was enough oil on the gears that they are wiping clean with not rusty pits. Tinkerer- There is a fair amount of sludge at the bottom of the casting. I will either spray or wipe it down with some solvent or diesel. Coy- I ordered a new breather. Steve
The cover definitely lost some metal. It's a cool looking pattern for being so destructive. Here it is sandblasted:
I sprayed epoxy primer and paint on the lid. I've been using PPG Delfleet Essential single stage paint system. The frustrating part it makes all the old rusty surrounding parts look awful.
On a different thread, I rebuilt all the brake parts. Today I planned on replacing the side gear seals. I drained the oil. There was maybe a half cup of water that came out first, but overall the oil looked good. There was just normal wear paste at the bottom of the casting. So after reading a few threads on the transaxle I figured I would check the backlash(tons of it) between the ring gear and pinion gear while I had the cover off. When I grabbed the pinion shaft to keep it from rotating I noticed a lot of end play(at least .018). Then I checked the side gears. The whole assembly(both side gears and the differential center wheel) have about .02 end play pushing from one side and using a dial indicator on the other side. What I don't understand is the bearing and gears look in great shape. No significant visible gear wear. How did it survive being this loose? Questions: How did all of this get loose? Does this all need to come apart to fix it? I don't think the large square shims(side gear plate) alone will get rid of this much end play. Did the thrust washers between the side gears wear out? The pinion gears all have clearance too. Thanks for the help, Steve
Do you have a service manual?
Yes, I have all of the manuals. I have read as much as I could find on the topic. This is a big job and I don't want to take any more apart than I have to. I'm beginning to wonder if this is the original transaxle. The paint is a different color and there is some white chalk written numbers on one side. For as loose as it is it doesn't look worn and 40 years old. Not that it matters at this point. I just noticed both rear axles have about 1/16" of end play and one leaking axle seal on the right side. So it looks like the castle nuts were not tight enough. Since nothing appears to be in tolerance, I'm guessing the odds are the main shaft and gears are not proper either? I'm still scratching my head as to why things look in great shape in terms of wear and tear? Most with loose fitting parts have a lot of wear and chipped gear teeth. I'm lucky in that respect. Steve
We started all of this because there was rust falling from the top cover, right? put it all back together, MAYBE replace the seal if you can easily. You'll never wear this thing out if you're 1% as careful operating it as you are taking care of it.
Yes, the side thrust washers do wear,and disintegrate over time..when I rebuilt my transaxle the left side washer was almost gone, and all the "shrapnel" from the washer also took out the spider gears that live in the center wheel...I've read in other posts that the left side is the load side and breaks down more often....You have the floor out and the top cover off that's the hard part..If you're going to do the thrust washers, you're going to have pull the bull gears/axles, why not just drop the transaxle and move machine forward w/the hoe...It's actually a lot easier than it sounds and sooo much easier to work on standing over it than under it...As far as the endplay in the counter/pinion shaft, if all the bearings/gears look good you can probably pull the front cover and retorque the locknut. After all the quality repairs you have done on that machine why not do a one and done on the transaxle as well...When I did mine I replaced all seals,bearings,races spider gears/pins, thrust washers shims..no major gears, got lucky there, ordered all the parts from tractor stuff/e-backhoe parts, all came in one box 4 days after I ordered..Final cost about $1000. but if your gears and bearings are useable, much cheaper.... Hmmmmm what to do
Delmer, Actually, this started out as a brake job and leaky seal repair. I do take care of my stuff, but I run my tools and equipment pretty hard. If I was not going to keep it I would probably just call it a day. Between keeping it and being a little OCD I'm going to fix it. The thought of diving into my dirt piles with that much slop makes me nervous. It will be a bigger and more costly job later. Plus I enjoy learning and doing the work. Knowing what I know now I would have bought a newer lower hour machine for more money. Stinky64- I'm just going to put things back to specification and replace the seals. Replace the thrust washers if they are damaged. Bearings and gears look great. Steve
Good plan DirtyHoe. A supposedly low hour machine can sometimes be a money pit.
Dirt, the thrust washers at the side gears were originally made of a fibre or bakelite looking stuff but all were subbed to hardened steel washers and are selective thickness to set the spider to side gear clearance. A factory manual would be your friend on this job, The resulting increase in the ring and pinion mesh accounts for many ring and pinion failures from improper tooth loading. To properly set the ring and pinion you should have a dial indicator, I have a magnetic base I use, I always set up on the tight side of spec. another thing and I will accept all the beatings anyone is passing out for but I always set the shafts up with slight preload even if it calls for a bit of end float in the manual. I have done hundreds of them and I have never seen one wear tighter and never had a bearing or race failure with preload. Install your brake seals before the final assembly after the shimming is done and be very careful not to roll the brake shaft seals, also do not forget to replace the small seal where the differential shaft comes out, a lot of RH side gear seals have been replaced when the small diff lock seal is the culprit. Ok I'm ready for my beating now about the preload!!
Sorry about the screw up, I added info and done something wrong, Oh Well!!
Steve,when you look up the thrust washers in your parts manual you'll see 6 different sizes, when I ordered mine the sizes ran 1 size smaller,all cnh dealer parts..thought my mic. was off so I borrowed another quality mic. from a guy at work and confirmed smaller size...when I ordered 3rd washer, ordered 1 size bigger and it worked, just throwing that out there because I hate being stopped dead in my tracks because of wrong parts.. probably applies across the board..good luck with the build...Stinky, Almost forgot when you put the carriers back onto the side gears, follow Tinkerers advice and use clear packing tape and a lot of lube so you don't roll or tear the new seals on the splines..thanks Tinkerer, worked for me too
The preload is no different than any other roller bearing, right? The ideal is a little preload, but it will die faster with a little too much preload, than a bigger amount of slop, so they recommend the slop. I mean, free play, not slop.
Thank you everyone for all the excellent tips and ideas. Melben- Out of curiosity when you tore these down for repairs was it common to see a lot of end play on the rear axle shafts, pinion shaft, and main shaft? Do the bearings and races loose size and contribute to this extra clearance from normal wear and tear? Stinky64- It's hard to get everything lined out for a bigger job. I'm either missing a part, don't have the right tool, or damage a small special order o-ring. I've been ordering from Dale at e-backhoeparts.com too. My other favorite place is McMaster-Carr for hardware. I hope to work on it this weekend and figure out what new parts I will need. Steve
I have not experienced a lot of issues with axle bearings over the years, when you tighten them up tighten them tight, they are a slow rolling shaft and will not overheat. I would imagine bearings or races can wear but that is not the norm. As previously stated by others, deterioration of the LH side gear thrust washers is the main cause of ring and pinion failures. Counter shaft loosening up was hardly ever a problem. Set everything with a rolling torque as we discussed earlier. BTW, the spacer behind the bearing on the counter shaft is selective also and it is to be sized so that there is a noticeable spacing between the gears that are stacked on that shaft when rolling torque is proper. If that spacer is to thick the gears will "stack up" and rolling torque will not be able to be set, gear clearance can just be a few thousandths but must be there.
I think more often than not the damage to bearings/races is due to the milkskake of doom in the transaxle from previous owners neglect...I changed mine out because they were badly pitted from moisture/water in the housing...
Worked on the disassembly a little tonight. The picture below is a good argument for having very little clearance or some preload on the bearings. Both rear axles had end play which got worse over the years. The bearing cone ate into the bull gear. The gear looks symmetrical about the splined hub. Any reason that I can't machine the damaged area flat, then flip the gear around so I don't change the side to side alignment of the gear to the side gear it meshes with? By flipping it around the castle nut will take up the extra space I machine off. I was hoping to not have to remove the transaxle because I'm not really set up for handing big heavy stuff. But the welded in steel tubing cross member is in the way of lifting the big bull gear out. It's always something. I did get both axles out. At some point in the tractor's life, it received a lot of love(grease). Each axle housing has at least 2 tubes of grease laying in the belly. No water or oil in the cavity, so the seals were doing their job. Any guess as to what the transaxle weights? The axle alone was almost too heavy to carry by myself. Steve
Steve, one of my gears was worn the same way, I ran a weld bead around it and ground it as flat as possible, ran damn near true when installed, no visible wobble...don't know what the weather is like in your neck of the woods, but if you have the tires removed set the housing down on 6x6 blocking, 2 under each axle housing and enough to support front of housing and you can move the machine up and over the housing with the hoe..It seems a lot harder than it actually is..4 bolts either side,disconnect brake lines, remove driveshaft,remove two front support brackets on transaxle, and there's a clamp on the right side hydraulic line that needs to come off so you can get to one of the housing bolts..I know I'm forgetting something but it's not really that hard,really nice to have a helper with another set of eyes outside of machine...One really important tip is to block the front axle so the rest of the machine doesn't pivot when going up and over the transaxle because the stabilizers won' be of any help at this point..I wouldn't recommend trying to move housing by yourself,If you have a neighbor with a tractor with a loader a box of beer will probably get them interested in the job...
I assume those bores are supposed to look like that because they're heat treated, right? Can somebody confirm they all have the heat color? not the wear you're talking about.
It appears to me there was some serious friction on it. Quite a bit of metal is gone by the looks of all the hangies.
Both of mine were blue around center spline, only 1 was worn like that and the cotter pin in that side had been replaced (poorly), maybe someone replaced a seal at some time and torqued poorly as well,,,,
Does anyone have a guess as to the weight of the transaxle? I'm not sure if my Kubota L3560 tractor with forks will pick it up. It's rated at about 1,700 pound lift capacity. I have everything disconnected and the mounting bolts loose. Blocked and ready to remove.
I'm thinking about doing a TIG pad weld instead of MIG. Are the gears cast steel and easy to weld? I can't weld as accurately as I did in my 20's. I would like to stay out of the splines and avoid the hassle of grinding and filing my mistakes off. Bifocals help, but I wish I had my younger eyes... FYI- I did find in the manual that it says the bull gears are stamped "Nut Side". So I can't flip it around like I wanted to in my earlier post. Steve
Your kubota should be more than enough to move the transaxle anywhere you want it..As far as welding, I used an old Lincoln red box with 7018 rod so a decent mig or tig should work just fine,if you accidentally get into the splines use a flat file to clean up and prefit gear before putting back in the machine... I thought about flipping the gear around myself, but the inside collar is just a bit larger..That whole new eyes thing is just a dollar store and $6.00 away,I've got a pair of 2.50's just for welding and reading on the crapper
Steve when starting removal make sure to take bolts right out, you have to move machine forward a bit to clear the two studs on the front of the housing that go through the crossmember before you go up,,I knew I forgot something...
Well, this ruined my day. I found out the cause of the shaft end play. The countershaft(pinion) blew out the snap ring and a chunk of the casting to the inside of the transaxle. The bearing cup had excessive force on it for some reason. Has anyone seen this failure on a 580C? Not sure if this can be re-welded and re-machined? Or maybe bore the hole oversize and press in a stepped bushing along with a shoulder to replace the snap ring? Unfortunately, I don't have a horizontal mill to tackle this myself. This may explain why everything is loose and not assembled correctly. I'm guessing a previous owner found this problem and decided to slap it back together and sell it. I have found no further damage besides the bull gears. All the bearings, gears, etc. seem to be in great shape. I would love some advice on how to move forward. Steve
You can probably have it bored oversize, a bushing made and fitted so the stock bearing will fit. It won't be cheap but better than throwing away the machine or trying to find a used part.
That truly sucks, looks like someone over torqued those bearings and blew the snap ring out of the case...there's not that kind of pressure on that cup/ring for the machine to do that...I'm not much for ghetto repairs, but it looks like you have enough of the snap ring groove ..that if you order a new snap ring set it into the groove and mig that top radius you may be able to save it..I would order a new pinch nut as well so you can feel the real torque you're putting the bearing,without the previous crimps in the old nut,no real pressure on that nut that's all you have to do is remove/set endplay...just a suggestion..what do you have to lose? If it doesn't work then you can pursue the boring/bushing method...Not even my machine and it ruined my day...
That type of bearing failure was very common here in Australia. Before the 580C was even officially released, four of the first ones to sell had all failed within a couple of weeks of delivery. That was just at the dealership where I worked. It was before my time there, the cause was that they all were delivered new for the first time - with 4in1 buckets. Dragging the bucket backwards with an open clam put an extraordinary load on the snap rings on the pinion shaft. The D & E transaxle used a flanged bearing cup to strengthen the design. Not sure on the C model if there ever was an upgrade??
Might be worth a gander through the bearing charts, there may be a bearing with the same ID, larger OD, and maybe a snap ring groove, if you can install the snap ring on the inside. Bore and face the housing? Good machinist scratch his head and sort that out I think.
Stinky64- The groove is damaged all the way around unfortunately. Because it pushed the snap ring out at an angle, the shoulder of the groove is deformed. I'm pretty sure the case is made of cast iron so MIG would not weld correctly. ALRman- Good to know the history of this. Case must have corrected it because I don't see anything on the forums with this type of damage. Broken gear teeth seem to be the biggest problem. Lantraxco- I'll look at bearing options. The force on the bearing cup is to the inside of the housing so the snap ring would need to be on the outside of the casting. I've made a few calls and I'm waiting for salvage yard pricing and machine shop estimates. One machine shop said $600 to 800 to bore and counterbore. Then I would machine a stepped bushing and use the same bearing. I should be able to get the bushing to locate in the same place as the snap ring with some measurements. That way I can use Case shims for the gear clearances and not have to make any more modifications. Below is my concept bushing drawing. Any suggestions on wall thicknesses? I have it drawn at .14 inches at the thinnest part. If pricing is similar what would be the better choice a used housing or my machined repair? Steve
Steve, there's a used one on ebay right now,$600.00 OBO stuifbergenequipmentllc is the seller, in Kalamazoo, may be worth a look.. pn a51952
Alrman's got some noteworthy info as usual. Notice that he said Case used the flanged bearin to eliminate the problem. Maybe consider the machine shop and the flanged bearing.
Lantraxco pointed me in the right direction- Thanks! I found this Timken tapered roller bearing(TSF 14116 - 14276-B) that is the same size as the original but with a flange. The snap ring in the bore is installed .5" deep which made the original bearing stick out about .125". The new bearing would stick out an additional .031". The diameter of the flange(2.869") and the extra stick out would not interfere with the cover. The flange would also just miss the small oil drain hole below the bore. The front of the housing is a good machined surface for the flange to mount against. The bore/bearing is still a press fit and the bearing would not touch the damaged area on the inside of the bore. This solution would save me from purchasing a used housing or getting the damaged one machined. I would have to use a thicker selective spacer(custom made and heat-treated) to remove the extra gear spacing(.031") created by the new bearing location. Do you guys see any reason why this would not hold up better than the original design? Steve
As long as it doesn't interfere with the cover and you've got the rest of the numbers worked out, it's a brilliant fix in my opinion..You've actually got the same animal on the other end of that shaft.. A lot more cost effective than the other 2 options as well...I replaced that other animal, pn a30115 $132 for oem timken bearing/cup w/ snap ring. Hope it works.. May the tractor force be with you....
I'm doing the final disassembly and finding a few bearings that have pitting on the races. Not from corrosion, but from metal particles getting pinched between the rollers. I took some measurements and have a concern I might not be able to get the proper ring and pinion gear backlash. Basically, I think their mesh will loose after removing all of the left side shims. Also, my side gears will need a smaller shim to get the proper clearance. Are my ring and pinion gears worn out or do they have some life left in them? Steve
Steve, don't understand the post, if you're removing all the shims, everything should get tighter, same for the side gear thrust washers being thinner, that would I think make your side gears looser.......As far as the ring and pinion shaft, I think they are ok to run, that's a couple of expensive parts..make sure to check the spider gears and their pins , they were roached on mine ....How did you make out matching up that snap ring cup for the broken case?
I think I can get the proper preload on the side gear bearings. I don't think I can move the ring into the pinion enough to remove the backlash(.005-.009") between gears. The left side controls the amount of gear mesh. There were only a couple of thin shims to begin with and they will need to be removed. Steve
Oh so the gears are just worn that bad where no side shims are needed?
That's what it's looking like. Do you see how thin and tapered the top of the pinion tooth is?
Sorry, that eluded me at first glance, tough to set up w/tapered gear..how does the ring look to the naked eye, not that bad in pic...I feel your pain, I got lucky with the gears but had to replace everything else..I just scoured my records for pricelist from rebuild for a new pinion shaft price from tractor stuff but it must be down in the shop, but I don't think it is a deal breaker....that pin in the ring gear photo was also a total loss for me, with all the shavings in that general area check them as well
I found a new Timken snap ring cup on Ebay for $40 with free shipping. Local bearing store was $225 and no stock. So that was a great find. Looks like any savings will get eaten up on extra parts unfortunately.
Good deal on the cup, I was mistaken on my quote about the pinion shaft...Unless you find a used one, you'll probably need to order those gears as a set that may get pricey....
Here are some pictures of what I worked on today. The center hub and the thrust washers galled. Maybe it was damaged from another incident. The oil was decent and nothing else inside is galled. I faced the center hub on the lathe to remove the damaged surface(about .006 per side). I will surface grind the thrust washers. They need to be thinner anyway because of excessive gear clearance on the side gears. The large diameter where the ring gear mounts only had .002" of runout. I decided not to reface it. Since it was on the lathe I polished up either end of the cross shaft so the oil seal and side gears have a smoother surface to run on. The manual says to replace the 12 ring gear bolts. Are the Case grade 8 bolts anything special or can I get grade 8 at my local hardware store and save a few dollars? Steve
The 3 small pinion gears are in great shape. The shaft that it rides on is slightly egged shaped(.0015 out of round). The total clearance between the gear bore and the shaft is about .005. At first, I thought the retaining pins all broke into pieces. But the parts manual says there should be 2 pins per gear shaft. But all the retaining pins are the wrong lengths. The shortest one missed the cross hole on the shaft. They should be 2.0 and .875 inches in length. I will replace them. It's looking more and more like a hack was inside here.
In my 35+ years in the automotive business, the last 13 being on site technical support for a major manufacturer, I can honestly say I only know maybe 10-12 technicians who can properly setup a gear box or differential. Most others just take it apart and put it back together with new bearings and hope for the best. I would say likely your machine had an issue and a hack tried to fix it and failed. Looking good by the way!
My machine is a 76 and the parts may have been upgraded, but I had single pins in the spider shafts..
Do any of the veteran Case mechanics know why just the 580C model required 2 pins instead of 1? It looks like the B, D, and E models only required one pin to secure the spider gear pin. I don't see how two pins would off any more shear strength than one pin. There shouldn't be hardly any rotational forces on this assembly when it's operating in an oil bath.
The second pin is a keeper so the lock pin doesn't come out. You'll notice they're different made pins, the lock pin is solid and the keeper is a spiral roll pin.
Must be mine were removed previously, that's all I had was the 2 inch pins...They were tight going back in and I centerpunched the ends, seemed to do the job..Is that going to be an issue? I sure as hell don't feel like a redo for those stinkin' pins....
Maybe my service manual is an earlier edition as is my machine, but the illustration on page 6214-36 shows only 1 groove pin in pinion pin for both 480C and 580Ccenter wheel..What gives??
Coy- Thanks for the explanation. Sometimes the assembly drawing in the parts manual is wrong in terms of what order the parts are to be assembled. Based on the lengths of the two different pins, below is what it would look like assembled. Each pin would engage in almost half of the hole. I listed the Case part numbers in the drawing. The keeper pin would only stop the 2-inch pin on one side of the through-hole. But the 580D parts manual uses only the 2" pin(same part number as the 580C). Stinky64- I hear ya, I only want to do this once too. The service manuals for the 580B, C, & D only talk about driving in one pin, not two. Confusing. I'm tempted to use just one 2" pin. Thoughts? Steve
Finished repairing both bull gears today. I pre-heated and ran several TIG passes around the circumference. The accuracy of TIG welding made it really easy to stay out of the splines. The outside gear is very hard, but the center hub area and splines are soft. I get lucky once in a while. They were too big for the lathe so I machined them flat on the mill with a carbide cutter. The next items on the to-do list are ordering the rest of the parts, hot pressuring washing the castings, and maybe some paint. Steve
That's pretty slick bullgear repair, I used a red box welder and did my fancy grinding with a dewalt grinder centered in the hole...Yours should work better than factory....