Hello, I have a 69 580ck that works when it wants to, and doesn’t when she doesn’t feel like it. She is diesel and the problem is with the injection pump. She has fuel to the pump, and inside (I can open the little screw on the top of the pump and fuel gushes out). Most times she starts on one turn and runs perfect all day. But sometimes she will just stop for no reason and I have to wait. Usually if I come back the next day she will start right up and run fine again. This is such a strange problem to me. I have no idea what is going on inside the little pump, but she definitely has her own mind. Today she will not start no matter what I do. One other clue is that there is a small leak in the pump that appears to drip fuel out the linkage (not positive on the location). does anyone have any ideas on how to make her run when I want her to?
Is your fuel cap vented? There maybe a vacuum as the fuel level drops - Preventing fuel delivery. Next time it stops, remove the fuel cap & listen for air being sucked into the the tank. If you here this, it should just start right up again. Then clean the fuel cap OR buy the correct one.
Thanks Altman, Yes my cap is vented and no problem getting fuel to the pump. I can unscrew the the top screw on the filters and fuel gushes, as well as fuel in the pump. No problem getting fuel, just a very finicky pump. -I let her sit fir a while 10 hrs, now she is running fine again. Making me crazy...
The pump #’s off the name plate would be helpful.. Have u removed the top cover yet to see if the “metering valve” was/is free.?? OR if there is any crud in the corners of the main pump housing..?? U say your not familiar with the insides so just google “RoosaMaster metering valve” & you’ll get the picture.. Have u tried running it without the return line hooked up.?? Tiny bits of plastic flex ring will flow out of the pump & get stuck & clog the line.. to test this theory, run it w/o the line hooked up to the pump.. Later mdls have a return connector w a glass ball in the return connector, that gets clogged... BUT, seeing yours is a 69 mdl. I doubt it has 1..?? It could also be, floaters in the tank.?? covering the outlet pipe in the tank.. All the 580’s I’ve worked on have a drain valve on the bottom of the tank.. have u loosened it to check for water & crud.?? Good luck n get back to us w the pump #’s & some results from these tests..
Thanks thepumpguysc, I am going to post a couple of pictures of the pump. I did take off the top plate and it was full of fuel and looked clean. I then tried to start the tractor and she fired right up! What does this mean? Is the return line clogged and somehow effecting the start/run of the tractor? Any ideas on what to do next? Kind regards, Dave
Yes the return is clogged..
It shuts down because, if the fuel can’t get out, no more fuel can get in.. kinda like putting your finger over a water hose.. U KNOW it’s ON, but if u don’t move your finger, no water will flow.. They get clogged by rust inside the pump or flex ring material..(very common)
Clogged return line will rase internal housing pressure, this in turn will not let plungers to spread, because they get spread by charge pressure. So housing pressure counters charge pressure, and plungers stay put, and not pumping anything! ( I might went just a tiny bit overboard with that one. Now people wonder what the hell are those plungers and where those suckers live? )
Yup.!!! Lol
Those pumps just like women - some of them want you to pinch a return line, and others will slap you on the face for doing it!!! Go figure!!!
That pump doesn’t have a check ball return connector.. it’s just a line that hooks to the top cover.. The line is definitely clogged.. There had to b quite a large piece of “something” go thru there in order to clog that line.. My guess is the flex ring has broken up & getting washed out thru the return. U can blow up thru the line to try to clear it (air compressor) then reassemble everything and see how long it takes to shut down again.. BUT.. if the rpms start to hunt/surge, shut it down & pull the pump for o/h..
Ok guys, I took the return line off and 90 degree elbow. Both were clear. Just to be sure I flushed with air and oil. I also drilled a couple of small holes in my gas cap to ensure venting. Problem still exists. Here is the latest clues: 1) Runs perfect all day with no issues, acceleration is perfect, no stalls. 2) no problems with fuel delivery, I see fuel everywhere. Release above filter spews fuel, unscrew the plug on the pump spews fuel, open the top cap on the pump spews fuel. 3) I just run her for 2 hours with no problems. Pulled the fuel shut off to take a break. Now she won’t start. (And yes I am pushing the fuel stop back in when trying to start) When I look at the exhaust pipe I can tell that she is not giving fuel to the injectors because there is no smoke. I will let her sit for several hours, and I bet she fires right up... Ideas? King regards and happy spook day!! Dave
Going out on a limb on this one but I wonder if the delivery valve may be a bit sticky, cmon pump guy, what do you think, the fact that it ran perfectly for several hours tells me that the internals of the pump are still serviceable. I have been in situations like that and just a tap on the pump housing would bring them back to life, just a thought!
Yup.. that’s what I’m thinking.. sticking metering valve.. sticks in the s/o position.. When u shut it off, do u leave the pull cable in THAT position until u come back to start it.?? Instead of yanking the cable to shut it off.. SLOWLY PULL THE CABLE till it dies off n stop.. NOW PUSH ITBACK TO THE RUN POSITION.. take your break like normal n come back n see it it starts..
Tapp it with a rubber mallet! Gently though!!!
Rubber mallet? Pfft! That's what a 2 lb. ball peen is for!
Guys, Thanks for the ideas. It still won’t start after trying several times yesterday and this morning. I did pop the top cover and jiggled all the linkage including rotating the metering valve. Still no fuel. Is it the shut off levers design to rotate the metering valve and thus starve the fuel? Or does the shut off lever have another way to kill fuel? What are your thoughts of adding some kind of cleaning fluid to the fuel in the top of the pump, and letting it soak? Kind regards, Dave
Your correct, the shut off lever rotates the metering valve to a no fuel position.. The no fuel cut is on the mv.. so it’s important that it rotates FREELY.. U can operate it by hand w the top cover off to see it moving..
If you don't have a gauge on the fuel supply to the injection pump, you don't know it's a problem with the injection pump and not the fuel supply upstream. We can guess all day on something like this, but eventually you have to find a smoking gun, if there's no crud found anywhere, and the metering valve works perfectly smooth, then the next step to me would be a pressure/vacuum gauge teed into the fuel supply to the injection pump, and run so you can see how it behaves when running, and if it pulls a vacuum when it dies. You've got Alrman, Melben and thepumpguy looking at this, there's no shortage of expertise, you just have to put it all together.
Well here’s the latest... First, a gauge won’t work in my setup. The fuel flow is gravity feed. There is no pump pushing fuel into the injection pump. Maybe I should put one in?? Not sure if that would help or hurt... She finally started today around 2pm. As usual once started she ran perfect. I used her for over 2 hours digging and scooping. I was using the hoe to dig a trench at a lower idle when I lifted the boom and stalled her by accident. After that she would not start. I never touched the fuel stop. I tried to start her off and on for the rest of the day. Just now I was closing up the barn and decided to try her one last time.. and she fired right up. I moved her into the barn and very gently pulled the fuel shut off just so slightly as to slowly let her die (pumpguys idea). Then I pushed the stop back in and tried to start her. No go. What do you guys think of putting some diesel cleaner in the fuel. Kind regards and thanks for the ideas, Dave
that's why you use a pressure/vacuum gauge that you can see from the seat, the injection pump most certainly has a pump inside it, and it will pull a vacuum if you block the supply. If it runs when it's got zero pressure, and then starts pulling a vacuum and then dies, you have your answer. If you look down as it dies and it's showing the same zero pressure it always does, then the issue is inside the pump, simple. What's the history of the machine and problem? new to you, or old machine and new problem? have you run the return line into a jar to check for air bubbles? how about thepumpguy's other questions?
Have you tried bottle feeding?
Thanks Delmer, I just ordered one of them fangled devices (pressure / vacuum gauge). I’ll try your idea to see if the pump pulls vacuum. Keep you posted... I’m going to also open up the drain on the tank and see what comes out. This is a new problem on an old tractor. I have had her for about 5 years and she has had many problems and still has a few. She is off and on running over the years, but the engine, transmission, and most parts are rebuilt. She runs very strong. I have two of these (580ck’s), both keep me busy. The one on the left is the one I am currently working on... Kind regards, Dave
Well hell, u have a parts store sitting right next to your problem.. Swap the pump.. Oh I almost forgot.. do your injectors have a T for the return line.?? Pull a couple of the T’s off & have a look.. U might just find that all of ur old broken flex ring is jammed up in the T’s.. THAT JUST HAPPENED to a guy I was helping..
I have same loader 69 580ck it came with an aftermarket fuel pump on it. I powered it with key on. It has low compression so I added a kats ether injection system and it starts and works good now. Even in the summertime I had to hit the ether injection button, but once it warmed up its good, fairly reliable. Ya I would definitely make sure the fuel is dumping back to the tank too
I got her running reliably now... I added an inline fuel pump, which pushes fuel to the injection pump. I made sure to get a low pressure one matching the pressure in the top of the roosamaster (~2 psi)
That’s pretty slick.!! If only ALL the problems could be fixed for 14.00.!! Happy for ya..
yep that's how I have mine going. Its nice to know you can hop in the seat and know its going to start right up