I'm not a fan of using ether on diesel engines as I've had several compression lock as the ether fires off well before TDC and earlier the diesel. That's hard on an engine. Instead, and only when absolutely necessary, I'll use some gasoline in a spray bottle. The gas fires earlier than diesel but not as early as ether and not as volatile. But I don't want to make this the norm. It's not on mine but Case uses an ether injector as their method to cold starting on the 580SL. It has a 120v block heater but not always access to electric. I would prefer to add a manifold heater. The machine is currently an hour away but the parts diagram looks like there is a plug on the manifold. Several questions... Anyone ever put one on the 4T-390? Is that plug hole an appropriate place? The size and thread of the hole? I see heater elements for other Case tractors online, just wondering if they would fit.
Have you had ether compression lock from an injection system? You could wire it up so you have to hit another button once the engine has reached full cranking speed, that might help. Or put a smaller orifice in there. I'm assuming you're not emptying the can into the air filter and then cranking it...
No injection system just using the can and not much. Not all engines. The two stroke Detroit doesn't seem to mind but my Deutz and Cummings don't like ether at all. I would prefer the intake heater and the injection system would most likely be more expensive anyway. Can do the heater for about $70-80... element, wiring, relay and switch.
Try holding the ether can farther away from the air intake and press lightly on the discharge button. The surrounding air dilutes the concentrated stream of ether. I removed the manifold air heater on my Case 301 diesel. It took a lot of battery power and I just had better results with ether. I eliminated one of the battery's after I no longer had that heater.
Thanks, Still wanting an intake heater. The Cummings and Duetz have them and they work well. What I really like on the Duetz is the decompression lever for cold starting. Get it spinning fast (no compression) and ease the lever in and out til she starts. Even a low battery will get it started. Gets the oil pressure up first too.
Cummins used a grid preheater on that engine that went on the manifold between it and the air intake . If your switch has a accessory position you would need the heater ,a magnetic switch and the wiring. Bob
There is a removable plug in the intake manifold that one of these can be screwed into. It would need a solenoid and switch added also.
The intake preheater from a ford 7.3 and maybe others runs inside a big pipe plug thread. big coil and gets red hot
Don't that one need a fuel line and what is the solenoid for? Bob
Solenoid as they're a high amp draw item, 30-80 amps and sometimes more, don't want to toggle that.
That's called a magnetic switch. Bob
I'd call it a relay myself.
You can use a relay up to 80 amps but over that use a mag. switch. Bob
You mean like a contactor? I know the glowplug/intake heaters on the ford use the same form factor relay as is used for a starter relay, I suppose where its duty cycle is relatively short they don't worry about overheating.
That image is a Case 580C heater. Part # 218349A1. They were installed in thousands of Case Ag. tractors also. A plain ole Delco stater solenoid one similar tothe one in image will work just fine. That is what was OEM om my 680CK manifold heater. Like this one ---->
what Tinker shows is ford thermostart requires a heavy wire with a #3 female spade connector,, will require a fuel feed to it, most put a tee pointing down in the return in line from inj. pump to fuel tank, yes best to use a solenoid because of amp. pull,,,the line to thermostart should stay full,, when power is actived to thermostart it will heat up and open up, letting fuel go in the heat will cause a flame in the intake,,it closes when power is turn off to it
Thermostart, well by golly I'd love to have one of those in my 7.3 almost like the old perkins one or what the deuce's had with the 'winter' package
That be a mag. switch or relay depending whose machine it's on. Bob
The pre-heater @Tinkerer pictured above is common to all the 580SK/SL/SM machines sold here, as we have EU built machines. Our climate generally negates any purpose for them & after a while they end up leaking diesel fuel into the intake causing excessive smoke. I have disconnected & eliminated dozens of them over the years. I can't believe the US market doesn't install them from factory as does the EU, since a big percentage of your machines operate in low temperatures. From what I've seen, not all intake manifolds have the threaded plug to install these pre-heaters. Hopefully yours has one.
The pic of the element that Tinkerer posted is what I was looking towards to install but I checked yesterday and the manifold does not have the plug hole on the manifold top plate. Was down to 10 degrees and had to have some help to start. I guess I could remove, drill and tap or replace the top plate. Suddenly this 'easy upgrade' just got a lot more involved/expensive. Thanks, Roger, Pittsburgh, PA
Modifications like the one you want is well worth the trouble. Especially if you can eliminate the use of ether. If it were my 4t 390 I would put this one on it. No fuel involved. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Diesel-Eng...:btwAAOSwu3ZcNkRm:sc:USPSPriority!61360!US!-1 with it.
How about a portable Honda generator supplying the 120 volt block heater? How big (watts) would you need? Then Go for coffee or breakfast. Probably better for the engine. I always have 120 V, but the block heater in my 580 C was a great investment. Is there a remote/computer controlled start-up for a portable genny? Unless your in the "hood" and then generator would be long gone... Just a thought, Curly
The block heater is on the machine and I have a Honda 3000 that is always in the back of my truck so I could do that. I don't have the remote start kit but it would be a cool addition.The kit is a little pricey and only has a range of 1500 feet. U R right, unless your watching it it would be gone. Mine has been cable locked in the back of the truck for so long i can't find the key. I was thinking manifold heater so that you could start it without the delay time of the block heater.
The drawback of using a coolant heater is that it takes about two hours to be effective depending on the air temperature. A good manifold heater takes about 1 minute before engaging the starter.
This thread got me interested in putting a manifold heater on my Case 1845C (if I decide to keep it), which has the naturally aspirated 4-390 Cummins. But where could I mount one? Maybe replace a section of that intake hose with steel pipe? The heat will rise and since there is no airflow during pre-heat, I'm afraid of heat cooking the hose. Any ideas? It has a block heater but I don't have electric power so would have to carry a generator, an idea I don't relish. I despise ether and want to avoid it if at all possible.
In picture 004 where the rubber hose meets the intake manifold there is a round protrusion. This is where on some models there is a threaded hole and the intake heater is inserted. Mine is like yours and I was thinking to remove this top intake plate and drill and thread a hole. A new gasket will be needed.
Thanks, good idea. Were you thinking of using a heater which does not use diesel (electric only)? It might also be a good idea to put a section of thin tubing inside the rubber hose to protect it from high temps coming off the heater. I've seen a few such heaters on ebay and amazon for diesel pickups, but they are probably too large for the 4-390. It would be nice if vendors mentioned the thread size and watt draw on them, too.
Check ; There is a manifold cover on Ebay with the correct part number. But the image doesn't show the threaded hole. It would be a fairly simple task to drill the one you have and thread it.
I have been watching the intake heater element in the link below on Ebay. No diesel. Unfortunately they don't give any specs and so I'm not sure this will work for the application. When I decide to go for the this I will just buy the heater and after it arrives then find the correct drill and tap. It is cheap enough to give it a try. I have something similar, single element manifold heater, on my farm tractor with a Duetz engine and one on a Kubota generator and they work great. Need it now but unfortunately it's not at the top of the 'to do' list. Will have to order the gasket in the diagram that Tinkerer posted. Hopefully all the bolts remove well. https://www.ebay.com/itm/International-Engine-Glow-Plug-IH-BD144-BD154-TD5-500-Crawler-Tractor-Loader/201914115457?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
With that short a coil, it doesn't seem like it would put out enough heat for more than one cylinder.
the intake thermostart has desiel fuel to it, when you apply power to just a few seconds, it has a thermostrip that heats up open to let fuel in, by that time be cranking engine fuel and make a flame going into intake manifold,, when power off to themostart closes stop fuel flow, most fuel lines are teed of return line form injector pump to fuel tank. probably takes 1/2 NPT for it to screw into
I have a dumb question. Is intake heat even necessary on this particular engine? The 4B engines I have seen will start on their own down to the single digits. But I have not worked on a 580.
Here is another style air heater that is on my tractor It requires a battery cable to supply the power to it. I never used it and eliminated the wiring and solenoid that powered it. Salvage yards have them for sale.
That looks like a glow plug that goes inside the cylinder, so one per cylinder. The deutz has a flame start, correct? with the fuel to it. edit: tinkerers looks more like a manifold heater, or the grid heater that goes over the whole intake
Only had the 580SL w/4T-390 for 6 months so not sure how it will react to the cold start. Unfortunately it must set out. Most diesels I have seen are happier with the heater. Figure it would be good insurance. Again, not a fan of ether. My Duetz is electric only. Haven't pulled the element from the manifold but it seems similar in size. Probably about 3/4 NPT but I suspect it is metric. The mounting placement is similar to what Tinkerer posted, center manifold. The glow plug shown may not be enough. It's just a thought and I appreciate all the input! Same is also on Ebay for <$8. Cheap for an experiment. My wife is calling it our 'money pit'!! Haven't ruled out the diesel element. Heard that they leak sometimes. Could put a small valve on the line to prevent that when not in use. https://www.ebay.com/itm/710348R1-New-international-Glow-Plug-2276-3434-BD154-BD144-IH500/172114817754?ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649
again, that's a glow plug that goes inside a cylinder, you need bigger heat for a manifold. Cross reference the number and see what the other ones look like. Have you ever tried an ether injection system? or used a can correctly? (crank the engine and give it a little whiff when it's cranking as fast as it will get)
Thanks and Yes I do understand that ether will work but at 62 I've seen enough that my preference is to only consider using ether as the last resort. I was also skeptical of the glow plug being enough but after the rest of the install swapping for a larger element will be a snap.
If you can find one that has the same threads. Just getting a seller to identify them seems nearly impossible.
I would wait until I know it actually needs a start aid. Try to start it on the coldest morning and see how it does. If it is really dead and you need to move it, then warm air from a propane torch down the intake while cranking will easily get it going for a temporary solution. If it is even necessary. These things are known for their cold starting characteristics in other applications (pickups, generators). With a healthy battery and starter motor. You can find a cold start video of almost anything. Here is what I would expect.
I came across this thread about using ether and many more. Search 'ether'. Just some of the reasons I'm looking into the manifold heater for the 580SL. HeavyEquipmentForums The heating element I ordered will be delivered today. I'll experiment with it a little.
So, which type did you decide to get ????
I got the glow plug type($8). The thread is about 1/2 NPT pipe, I will need to check. Going to power it up to see how much heat it makes and amp draw. My research comes up with <20 amps. Considering ordering the fuel type($20) to check the thread. Drill/tap one larger hole and bushing it down as needed for changing to different size elements. Found a all electric one for a Ford powerstroke($50) that draws about 100 amps with 22m x 1.5 thread but I'm not sure there is enough space for a hole that large at the spot on the intake.
Keep us posted on your progress. Especially how you how you power it up electrically. Your experimentation will certainly help future readers of this thread. Also, I am curious myself.
My thoughts for the electric are to power it similar to an older Ford starter. Fusible link, starter relay, momentary switch on dash and appropriate size wire for amp draw. But I'm always open to new ideas! May be a key fob remote starter kit!! LOL
If you're planning on trying the glow plug for an international BD144/154 they're only rated for around 2volts, they connect in a series of 4 and a resistor/dash indicator coil.
I hadn't thought about it that way. Thanks!!