I’m thinking of using the hydraulic pto to run a brush hog or a finish mower for doing the trails around our 20 ac. It takes about 3 hours with the neighbor's rig. The Case ratings are 540 rpm pto, 32 hp at the pto, 23 gpm @ 2300 psi. My concern is the oil tank is only 10 gal. I could see the oil getting too hot along with foaming giving you a lack of power to the mower, (if you had enough to start with). The trails are grass and I don't let them grow overly long. Thanks for any opinions.
Question... If you have a mechanical 540 PTO, why go to a hydraulic mower? An old Ford 8N puts out about 23 hp at the PTO, and handles a 5' brush hog in tall, thick hay without hesitation on my hills. I would think you'd be just fine at 6' on your 540 PTO. Plus 540 brush cutters are a lot more common than hydraulic units, and they run forever, so used is an easy option.
Actually it's a hydraulic PTO and I want to use a mechanical mower.
Righto, then I'm out... Sorry for the distraction.
Something else to consider is your ground speed in 1st gear at the engine rpm required to operate the slasher effectively. You might find it is too fast. Most agricultural tractors have splitters in the gearbox, allowing much slower ground speed.
It goes 3.3 mi per hour in first gear at full throttle according to the manufacturer spec. sheet. I would assume it means going down a paved road that's flat but of course I'm not sure. It has a shuttle shift on it if it behaves like my Ford the ground speed would slow down if you were going up a steep hill but the engine RPM would stay up.
3.3 would be fine. You could go faster with a brush hog. The 8N does 3.7 in 1st, and 4.8 in 2nd. Cut is no issue for the brush hog up to 3' or more. Occasionally I'll run 3rd when the runs are straight, and somewhat shorter height. Obviously it depends on what you're cutting, but you did say grass. Finish mower I tend to run 1st, but that's mostly so I don't cut up the grass turning with the 19" pizza cutter front tires.
It sounds like the speed of the tractor would work out but then there's the issue with the 10 gallon tank. It does have a circuit for cooling hydraulic fluid I'm not sure if that's big enough. A bigger tank is so the little air bubbles will settle out so if the fluid gets foamy it becomes compressible and loses efficiency. I believe you'll also generate heat that way. I'm quite sure the system wasn't designed for this use but possibly if I'm not using it a lot and not on real hot days will I get away with it?
You might... Case used to make garden tractors. They had hydraulic PTO's. They sold hydraulic powered brush hogs (4'). Tanks were less than 2 gallons, though they did have a cooler coil. In addition the tractor ran via hydraulic drive from the same pump/supply. While I don't have the brush hog to directly relate, people have run them pretty hard. A 10 gallon tank would be a dream on those little machines. Those were 12-16 horse machines.
I believe I see a problem with the Case 480 for mowing. I believe the garden tractors you were talking about are hydrostatic drive machines and that the the hydraulic mower is designed to work on a hydrostatic machine. The hydrostatic machines throttle could be run with a proper RPM for the mower set at a constant. The 480 shuttle shift you'd ramp the RPM up and down every time you took a corner or changed direction leaving choppy or missed spots in your mowing.
Nope, the garden tractors are gear pumps. Travel speed and direction is controlled via a spool valve. The PTO is in series with the travel. PTO first, at a higher pressure, then travel at a lower, and eventually implement lift at an even lower pressure. Kinda weird, but it works. As I said, I don't have the hydro powered mower, so I can't really speak to it's quirks, I just know they work. Of course they're not speed deamons, so I imagine you just keep cruising without much need to brake. I always run the 8N at a set it an forget it RPM. About the only time I have to alter the speed is a hard corner, and I just clutch at that point, so the mechanical PTO just coasts through the corner. Backing up is a pain on the N with the brush hog since it's a transmission PTO... Last time I ran it, I went to the ** 135 which atleast has a two stage clutch so that's not an issue... So you're saying the 480 doesn't have either a 2 stage clutch, or an independant PTO circuit? Seems crazy for a 1980+ machine... If that's the case I guess it wouldn't be ideal. Could always find yourself a vintage utility at that point to dedicate to mowing, but that's just another machine to store and maintain if you don't need it frequently...
" So you're saying the 480 doesn't have either a 2 stage clutch, or an independent PTO circuit? Seems crazy for a 1980+ machine... If that's the case I guess it wouldn't be ideal. Could always find yourself a vintage utility at that point to dedicate to mowing, but that's just another machine to store and maintain if you don't need it frequently..." The 480LL has a power shuttle. The PTO valve is in the the same control valve assembly as the 3 point hitch. There is a decent size hydraulic oil cooler in front of the radiator.
What I was trying for was a good landscaping machine that could also do my trails. I found a Case service man that was familiar with the machine and he said not to expect much. That they weren't made for mowing. You can do it but you probably wouldn't last long before the mower would fade because of the heated oil. He said it may only take an hour but maybe longer depending on conditions. I'd rather not get another tractor because I don't have a great need for one. This may do since I only use it three times a year for mowing about 3 hours at a time. I'm retired so if I have to stop and let the thing rest for a day that's not a big deal either.
I really don’t see the issue but maybe I’m misunderstanding. I have a Kubota tractor that I run a 5’ bushhog on and while it sounds strange to do it on my Case 580 backhoe, if it had the 3pt hitch, I don’t see why it wouldn’t work. I would just set the throttle to desired RPM for the cutter and put it in 1st gear and drive. I get the shuttle shift idea but when I’m regrading my driveway, I just run the RPM up and clutch it into 1st and run it like a dozer with the split brakes.
Took a hydraulics class, and 3 minutes was the rule of thumb for tank sizing. So 23 gpm x x3 min = 69 gallons. YMMV
There has to be more to it than that... I've got machines that run 8-9 gpm gear pumps at 2300psi, and have a total system capacity of 3 gallons (Case 646's). They do have a cooling coil, but it's only perhaps 9" x 10". They run all day when needed with no issues, and that's pushing regular old 15w-40 as fluid, not specific hydraulic fluid. Would I like a bigger tank for a little more cooling, sure, but apparently Case figured out how to make it work. I still think the 480ll should be able to do this no issue, despite perhaps not being ideal.
I just took the time to type out what I was told. "don't shoot the messenger" eh ?
The two issues at play here are 1) the 480LL uses a hydraulic motor for a PTO, not a traditional mechanically driven one and 2)it has a torque converter shuttle shift. The hydraulic motor PTO is an issue because they are not very powerful and they generate a lot of heat under heavy load/extended use operation. The torque converter shuttle shift isn't ideal because to stop or change directions you have to completely let off the throttle and the mower will be constantly spooling up and down. Sure you can just push the transmission disconnect button (either on the loader lever or button on the floor) and use it like a clutch, but that's going to be very rough on things using it at full throttle. It doesn't have any modulation so when you let go of the button, in gear, at full throttle it is the equivalent of dumping the clutch. I think it would work but will certainly be less than ideal. I wouldn't run it long periods of time and keep the loads light. You'll just have to accept that to slow down, change direction, etc that you will have to let off the throttle and the mower will slow or almost stop and have spool back up to speed. Plan your mowing accordingly and it might be ok. I think you should try it and report back on how it works.
If that came off as an attack, it wasn't intended. Probably just a frustrating day at work coming through the keyboard.
Ignorance is bliss.
The 480 has a lot of appeal in tight quarters. The shuttle shift is smooth, easy and forgiving to use. It would be much like the power shift torque converter setup on my 977. I'm not sure what hydrostatic machines there are for doing similar type work. They would do a much better job at mowing and power things like a rototiller. Maybe there's something in a gear type machine that would work okay. I do have a big fancy for the 480 but maybe there's other options out there that wouldn't box me into being really targeted for landscaping?
I really want a three-point hitch that has down pressure. I'm planning on building some outrageous ATV trails.
Wanting down pressure on a 3 point is going to narrow your choices a lot. Before putting yourself in to that restriction, really think about what you need a 3 point implement to do. Generally anything that needs to dig in is designed to do so on its own without help from down pressure. If you're looking at a blade, you can add weight and adjust your angle of attack. Box blades can often mount rippers that will pull down. All my gear is old, so I have no idea what's out there with hydrostatic drives. They're there for sure. I know I've seen old international ag/utility machine that were hydro, so it's not a new/exotic thing... Might not be as much in the industrial sector though.
The only tractors made of any size these days with a hydrostatic transmission are something along the lines of the Kubota MX series, the M62 Kubota TLB, or some of the large compact tractors from Deere. These are all going to range in size from 50-60hp, but none will have the loader capabilities or the weight of the 480LL. They are however, very nice machines for bush hogging, light to moderate loader work, and a host of other things you'd use a tractor that size for. Nothing short of another Case or Deere Loader/landscaper (skip loader) tractor will have down force on the 3pt, but then you're right back to the hydraulic pto and torque converter, even on the current models. That said, I'm not exactly sure why you want a tractor with 3pt down force for building atv trails? If its steep country shelfing it out with a dozer, loader, mini ex, or even the loader on your 480LL is going to be more effective than a rear blade or box blade. Sounds like you really need more than one machine, one for dirt moving, clearing, and so forth, then another for maintenance. Maybe even trade the 480LL for a 480/580 backhoe then get a small 4wd hst tractor to run a bush hog etc?
Sounds like you need a skid steer, all the implements are available and the set up is somewhat universal.
I have some real steep country and a big 977 loader for doing big earth moving even a big dump truck. I was thinking of something that would do good molding of the earth and then trail upkeep. Two tractor machines might be the answer as tool slinger had mentioned earlier but I would prefer one. I am really only interested in diesel engines they drop off off-road diesel here for free and it doesn't spoil the way gasoline does. So even an old two-wheel drive machine that can turn a 6 ft brush hog that I already own would be great. Possibly the 480 is the answer for right now because of its ability to move around earth. I do have an old 225 cat excavator but I need to pull it out and put the right bell housing on it and hopefully just replace the drive pucks. I may not need down pressure but I would for sure want to be able to tilt the box blade and of course have a hydraulic top link. I would like to make some jumps and banked turns. I would think you'd want some real stability in the box blade. I would probably want a machine between 1960 and 2010. I don't want to sink a lot of money into something that I'm not going to use a lot. I would want a worthy piece of iron I do like to get back into the machines that don't have much plastic. Not something that look like a beater. I have a bad back so distance traveling like mowing the trails with a skid steer would be trouble for me.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere... I am going to suggest you check out Yesterday's Tractors forum. That's more dedicated to Ag and Utility tractors than here. I think I'd be looking for something like a JD 1020, 1520, or the follow on 30 series, or the industrial 300 series. There's also the ** 135, Ford 2000, 3000. They're in the high 30, to low 50 horse. All have 3 point, all can have hydraulic remotes, live, or independent PTO. You're looking at gears, not shuttle tranny, but there's no issue shifting with live, or independent PTO. All have diesel options, and they're all about as proven as you can get. It seems like you have the heavy earth moving covered. You could have a loader on any of the above, but not having that out front make them more nimble. Absolutely get power steering. Mechanical engines, no BS electronics. Still have support between the the OEM, and aftermarket. Unless you wreck them, they're long done loosing value. They're likely outlive you if even remotely taken care of.
If you want to build jumps and stuff, you want a skid steer or CTL. You can do some stuff with a front end loader but for final shaping nothing beats a skid steer or CTL. When they build the Supercross tracks they always have at least one CTL for final shaping and fixing up ruts and other track deterioration.
I do like skid steers because you can see what you're doing much better than a tractor. But I've got a pretty bad back and the thing I don't like about skid steers is the bouncing and I have quite a bit of distance between some of these jobs and the house. So the larger tires the longer wheel base and the heavier weight of a construction tractor should help smooth the ride out. If you could put in a low profile air ride seat that might help out I could see even put in an air ride seat in a tractor. I've battled myself through a whole career in heavy industry so it's pretty beat up. Now don't recover as well as I used to. Won't the tilt on the box blade help a lot in the initial sculpting?
I have not read every single post here, But the LL already has down pressure built into it. For those that don't know this is a "Landscaping Loader" tractor. Basically a 480D backhoe without the hoe. and they make a hoe for this machine. I bought one of these at my neighbors estate sale when he passed. He was too tight to fix it when he was alive. It is more than I need and I don't like the placement of the "clutch button" on the floor. other than that they are a well built machine although a little quirky to get use to.
Some skid steer have a suspension seat and I'm sure something could be adapted. You can do a lot of shaping with a box blade but where they excel is bigger area's like golf courses and there is a steep learning curve as well. For trails in the tree's and bush I think a box blade would be more of a hindrance.
If you have down pressure can you take off high spots or hard spots a lot easier and more reliably? Then It would be that the heavier machine the better to aid in traction, consistency and stability. If You had a dozer and an excavator would it make the box blade and landscape loader of no real value on a large one man job site? My place is by no means a golf course but there are some large areas. Why is it in the western part of the country these landscape loaders are so popular?
How wide are your trails going to be? You need to be able to pack the middle of any jumps or raised surfaces. With a tractor you'd need to be a lot wider in order to pack the middle than if you had med. size skid steer or CTL.
For the most part trails would be 7 to 10 ft wide. In one spot I'd like to put a track so that you can do a lot of power sliding/drifting without tearing up the more natural trails. Packing is an issue. I was thinking of using the help from time and mother nature to help deal with the center. Figuring you'd have to go around with a blade tilted way forward to break down the center if needed. My machines a thousand pounds and 55 in wide so it can do some packing of the center. If it got problematic couldn't you tow a water filled drum behind your machine for packing. Maybe you would need to put some packing feet on it.
I bought the 1991 480F LL at auction today. I talked to the owner quite a bit beforehand.... At least it seems to be a worthy piece of iron to work on! I'll check back next summer with a report on how the PTO works out. "Thanks" to everyone that helped me make up my mind!
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Should be a good tractor. The middle of the trail is the most used and will need the most repairs and touch ups. That's why packing is important.
Thanks Dave I was real happy about the options that were on this tractor. Large capacity bucket with longer bottom lip making it easier to pick up tools and rocks and such. The seat can rotate and slide back to run rear attachments easier. Five levers to the right of the seat to control the PTO, three-point and auxiliary. He ran a rototiller for the garden for as much as he needed off the PTO, but never ran a mower. Not sold off a lot pick up at his house. 32 horsepower to the pto until the oil heats up. It's a 69 horsepower tractor. I hadn't thought before on needing packing for safe landing areas, ect. I wonder if I could rig up a fifth wheel to put in the three-point with down pressure to pack the center.... Cheers Shawn
Some kind of roller would help. A former neighbor made a pull type roller by filling a length of culvert with concrete. If the track is wide enough the tires on the tractor should pack it pretty good. You may need to water it some so it packs better.
Looks like a nice machine, the wheel weights look to be a great idea. I have a drum type roller that holds over 400 gallons that I use for my food plots and such but my homemade sheep’s foot roller works way better than packing with just the water drum. What I really want, is a Harley Rake or a soil conditioner, not sure if they are worth the money unless you are working them.
Can you post a pic. of your sheep's foot roller? I'm thinking of making something to go on the ripper frame of the grader to pack the oval track. The nice thing is it doesn't need to be a big diameter to hold liquid or sand for weight.
Dave, if you’re asking about mine, I made it out of a big heavy steel pressure tank someone had given me, about 6’x3’ and used 4” channel iron and 3” flat bar and welded them all around in a zig zag pattern. It was quite heavy when I got done and even put 1”NPT fittings in for water, it leaked a bit but worked great. Some contractor was driving by and offered me half of what I need for a Harley rake and it’s been burnin a hole in my safe, waiting for spring. I already have an idea for another one but I’m making it more like a soil conditioner than a sheep’s foot. Have a line on a 18” cement filled pipe someone wants to get rid of soon.
Never thought much about them.... I wouldn't run it in mud...lol selling on the 27th in York NE Sheepsfoot | Construction Sheepsfoot, Overall Width Of 9’, Qty-2 4’ Steel Rollers, Pin Hitch www.bigiron.com
Sheep's foot like that usually go for $8000cad. and up unless they are damaged.
The one I made was solid and the dogs were only 3” high but a semi local contractor gave me 2500 for it, loaded onto his trailer. The one above is serious money around here. I made mine out of almost all scrap stuff I had around. Steel around here is boo-koo money. I just redid a 6’x10’ trailer and just the new rails and cross members were 7 Hundo’s. I have a whole bunch of Ma Bell grey steel 1” pipe and thinking of welding them in the same zig zap pattern on that 18” pipe, probably 3 or 4” long and weld up a tongue and it would kinda resemble a soil conditioner they sell for food plots.
I studied hydraulics and fluid mechanics too. The sizing you quoted was the rule of thumb for a non-cooled system. It needs that volume to help shed the heat. Once you add a hydraulic cooler, the system is limited by the ability of the cooler to remove heat from the system allowing for a much smaller reservoir to be utilized. The benefit is smaller packaging and less cost for fluid along with improved temperature control. As an example: Our case 1845c skid steers have an 11gpm hydraulic capacity (I think the actual tank is only 6 gallons), but the standard hydraulic flow rate is 16gpm, with a 30gpm high flow rate option available. They also have a hydraulic oil cooler that has close to 4 ft² cooling area to shed the heat. Even with a half plugged cooler, I've never seen one of these machines trigger the hydraulics over heat alarm. We did have a Case 60xt that would trigger the overheat alarm on a hot day, but we think that one had a bad drive motor causing excessive heat build up. That machine was plagued with problems and was eventually traded off.
Hydraulics the norm used to be 3 times the pump(s) output but most mobile hydraulics were way less. Big Muskie possibly had the largest hyd. reservoir at 15,000 gallons! I'd have to look at how many pumps it had but not sure if it lists the GPM. They were Vickers pumps though.