So my project this winter has been tearing down this engine, sent it to a machine shop to inspect the block and make any repairs that needed. I got the block and all support equipment back a couple weeks ago. Finally got it all together and today was the big day to fire her up...I filled the oil pump with oil just before cranking it over. I had my uncle applying air pressure to the fuel tank to assist with priming the fuel system. I cranked the engine over for about 20-30 seconds and the battery was getting weak. So I put the charger on and 10 minutes later tried cranking again...wont turn over. Its seized both directions...dropped the oil and gonna pull pan tomorrow...my thought is a scored liner...today was supposed to be full of smiles and joy... Any thoughts very appreciated
I have never seen a scored liner or bore with the few revolutions you describe. Did you put assembly lube on the all the bearings before installing them ? Any chance it is hydro-locked with fuel ?
Put a good amount of engine oil on everything as I assembled...same as I've done the last 3 engines...its in an old versatile tractor so theres a driveshaft between the engine and transmission...I can't budge the driveshaft either direction with a 24" pipe wrench. Pulling the injectors will be next on the list after the bottom end inspection I guess...
Did a complete restoration on this 1975 850 versatile this winter....I guess I'm not quite done yet though
Nice resto job. I like to see those old Versatiles looking like new again. The body panels awesome, not a wrinkle in them. What model is it ?
I’m going to go with a fuel or coolant hydro lock on this one.
It's a 1975 850 series 1. 2 winters ago I rebuilt the transmission. This winter I split it and built all new center/articulation and steering pins in my lathe and somehow my uncle talked me into sanding it down and painting it...i think it looks great...its been a lot of work. Today just broke my heart though...the end of this project is so close...I still have the duals and spacers to sand and paint yet though.
Could it hydraulically lock both directions though?
If more than one cylinder is flooded. Easy enough to remove injectors to confirm. Or, let it sit overnight and see if your crankcase smells like fuel.
Ok. That sounds like an easier first step than pulling the pan... I left the oil to drain overnight...just in case I want to pull the pan. Thanks...
Any chance of a list of what the machine shop actually did to the block? Did they also have the crank, maybe to polish or grind? How about the connecting rods? Did you check the end play on the crank after torqueing the mains? Can you see if it still has the end play now? Just thought of one more thing, if the starter is easy to get at try removing or at least loosening the mounting bolt a good amount and shake it then see if engine is still locked. Not common but have seen a starter drive somehow jam up and act like a seized engine! Not being familiar with the application, is the fuel tank above the fuel pump or does it have an electric fuel pump that supplies fuel to the PT pump? I'll assume this is too new an engine to have a compression release! Not trying to say what is wrong but just thinking out load from here in NY!
Well I just pulled the valve covers off and I can force the valves open with a hard push on a hammer handle....that kind of rules out hydro lock no?
Machine shop re machined the deck of the block. All 6 bottom bores were machined and a sleeve installed in each. Crank was ground down 10 thou on main and rod journals. New camshaft as well as cam . bearings...new wrist pin bearings. 2 heads were complete rebuilds and one new head from India. No I did not measure end play after installation. Fuel tank is below fuel pump. Starter is not terrible to remove. Its locked up tight...like doesnt even seem to be gear lash...
Starter isnt the problem..just pulled it. No compression release...
Thats one of the best big tractors ever made. I have had similar things happen find out what is wrong and fix it.
Have you loosened the V- belts yet? To rule out a seized accessory. By odd chance.
No I haven't done the vbelts..easy to rule that out quick though...in the am...time for a few bud lights to try calm me down...thanks guys
Okay, then. Take a break. I know the feeling when something doesn’t go right after a big project like that. One always expects the worst. Then, staying awake all night, re-living the entire repair trying to think of what may have gone wrong.
I felt sick reading your first post The tractor looks great and hope you get it figured out easy enough
Well on the bright side...I was smart enough not to put that 2 piece beast of a hood back on until after it fired up...
Drop the drive line to make sure it's not the transmission end. Bob
did you plastigage the mains and rods before you did the final assembly? did you oil the liners and soak the piston/rod assemblies in oil before stuffing them in the liners? did all the rods have side play after torquing? IMO engine oil does not have enough lube for bearings and cam journals on initial start-up of a fresh engine unless the whole lube system has been pre-lubed to fill the oil galleries in the block. engine assembly lube like lubriplate has extra additives. i assume you gave the block and crank a thorough cleaning before assembly to remove any debris left behind after the machining and regrinding. were the crank thrust bearing inserts std or oversize? that's why you have to check endplay. if you used the wrong procedure to set the injectors, you could bend injector push-tubes. did you time the accessory drive gears when you reassembled it so that the ABC marks are correct to the crank position? just a few random thoughts
Sure would suck to spend a bunch of time searching the engine for a problem to find there was something wrong with or in the transmission! Also any other accessories that you can remove or check? I know you said you didn't check end play on crank while assembling, how about seeing if there is any right now. It should move pretty easy back and forth. Don't go crazy prying against the vibration damper. I would expect something like .010 to .015 thousands movement. If you have the starter out it might be safer and best to try prying on that end. I know taking things apart is not fun at this point but how about pulling the injectors just to be sure there is nothing in the cylinders? How hard to drop the oil pan with it in frame? That would let you see if there is side play on the big ends of all the rods
Dropped the pan this am. Crank has easy endplay.....ya 10 or 15 thou..just enough to see it move. Rod bearing #3 seemed tight so pulled it off. It's a bit shiny on half of the bearing....pulled all 6 injectors. Turns over easy by hand now. I buggered a rod bearing up by dropping it. So hope to have a new bearing late tomorrow afternoon...so ya it seems like it was hydraulically locked...not sure how it managed that...I know some buddy's came over as I was setting the last 3 injectors/valves so maybe I buggere something up there....pushrods all look straight yet...
Crank and rod journals were ground 10 thou and oversized bearings were put on everything there. All timing Mark's were lined up as assembled by myself. These are ptd injectors...I set them at 72in/lb on the injecting cylinder and the valves were set on the same cylinder at that time...pretty sure I set valves at 14 and 27thou...maybe I should've set at 11 and 23?? No plate on this old girl
Going by those spec's I'm assuming you have aluminum rocker housings? Had to do some digging to find a Cummins manual online as the only one I have at home is dated 6/65. When you turned it over by hand with injectors out did you get fuel, oil or coolant out of the injector holes?
Aluminum boxes yes. Only seems to be fuel in all the injector holes..
Pretty sure I've figured it out...that bearing that I thought I scratched when I dropped....I rolled out the top half of it and it looks like this. I never blew out the crank ports after it was ground and think that some swarf was in there and oil carried it to the bearing...makes more sense than hydraulic lock cause there is next to nothing on the pistons for fluid...crank has a small amount of metal stuck to it I've been sanding off for the last couple hrs...damn
It's never a good thing to expect a machine shop to clean things after they grind or machine any surface. I always removed small pipe plugs in the crank for the oil galleys from the mains to the rods then used a brush to scrub them out, something like you would need to clean the barrel of a .22 rifle. Also good to do the same with any oil galleys in the block or fuel passages in the heads, even if new or remaned! I always wash my own hands and same goes for engine and other parts!
Yes this is a hard lesson learned...so what now? I'm not going to pull the engine again...is there anyway of blowing out the passages if I took the bearings off? Or just put er back together and cross my fingers? This bearing was rod #1 .
This is one time a battery going dead was a very, very good thing. What does the connecting rod journal look like ? In particular the mating surfaces of the cap and rod. If, and that is an if, what if there wasn't any crap from the machining operation causing that damage. That is serious tear on that liner. Is there possibility the journal is out of round ? Before rotating the crankshaft with the new bearing in, I would be be checking the new bearing fit in a couple of different positions with some plasti-gauge.
Might be a good idea to run a couple of gallons of oil thru your engine like with a prelube tank. Along with Checking the rest of the bearings. If anything looks not so good maybe rolling in a new set of bearings . Bob
I thought a little better view of the damage may help members to make a judgement on it.
Either the journal is NOT .010 under or you have a bad bearing, plastigage them ALL, MAINS and RODS, did you use any assembly lube on the bearing shells? We always used White Lithium Grease, Lubriplate on assembly and then Pressure lubed the engines before start up. How did you time the Cam Boxes? Did you use a Timing Gauge or try to acquire one, going back with the original shims thickness does not always work.
Sure been thinking about pulling the engine again and getting crank reground...I'm gonna sleep on it...I'd sure sleep better if I go that route...
Cam boxes were timed with the dual dial gauges...got unbelievably lucky with my first try...put the .031" shim in and was at -.0355. All 3 boxes were within .0005". First time I've ever been that close with aftermarket camshaft. I used a decent amount of 15w40 oil on everything that got reassembled...maybe I've been just super lucky with every engine I've built in the past and it finally caught up to me this time...I dunno...I have no idea what the original thickness was. I always retime anyway so dont pay attention to that.
Can I remove and install the crank while leaving all the pistons and connecting rods in the block? In my head the removal would be easy enough ....but installing might be a challenge?...
Inverted, on the deck with all pistons at top of travel could do it. Hopefully not the old Two Piece Crank.
It's basically a big cam crank I believe...so you're saying the heads need removed? Just trying to find out the minimal stripping I need to do.
I may have missed or just forgot about two piece cranks, well sure in the 16V-71's but a Cummins? I'd be thinking if one had the right lifting equipment and was very careful on the blocking you could remove front and rear covers/flywheel housing then being very careful remove the crank. But then there is still the question of if there is contamination was it in crank or in the block. What does everyone think of removing rocker boxes and cam while removing crank? I'd say a good miking, is that a real word?, of the crank would be a very good start and then when reassembling plastigauge all bearings. While crank and cam are out I would be cleaning all oil galleys I could with a rifle cleaning kit. And like I said before, remove all the 1/8 inch pipe plugs from the crank and clean all the bores in it. One trick I always found to work was to take a small brazing tip and heat the pugs in crank good and hot then let them cool they come out very easy most of the time after that. And yes toss the old ones and install new!
My thought at the moment is to take the turbo off and lay the engine on the exhaust manifold side. Blocking it so that the bottom end is a bit higher than the top end. With a spreader bar and eye bolts in each end of the crank I should be able to reinstall?? Thoughts? Just got off the phone with engine repair/machine shop. The block is guaranteed that the galleys were cleaned out. The crank grind was a 3rd party shop...not cleaning the crank is totally on me. This tractor/engine project has been 3 months so far....what's another week and another $1000 to get it done right....right?? Sure sucks though
The damage on that bearing is not swarf! Something is very wrong there. One quick thought is were the caps stamped. That kind of looks like a cap got turned around backwards and didn't sit square with the other side. Were it mine, the engine would come out, get turned upside down and the crank exposed on all the journals and rods.
Caps are all stamped yes. Engine is coming out in the am. Crank is heading back to the engine shop to get inspected...again.
NO!
Very good call on having the crankshaft polished or reground. May I suggest that you have that connecting rod journal checked for being perfectly round ? There is a slim chance that the bearing may have had a defect. Perhaps you already have, if not take a look at the back of it to verify it was the correct oversize. Like tenwheeler said---> no to leaving the upper end intact and removing the crankshaft. The odds are very high that damage will be done to the crankshaft on reassembly.
Rod can probably be checked in place, assembled and torqued, with an inside mic or a snap gauge and an outside mic.
Once I get the crank out...today or tomorrow....ill definitely check the journals with my micrometer for roundness...that swarf in the crank was just my theory of what happened here...I dont know foresure. The motor was locked up both directions and there isnt enough fluid on top of the pistons to cause a hydraulic lock. All the pistons slide up and down without much force, theres no pushrods bent and the injectors look good...seizure on the crank makes the most sense especially with the way that bearing and journal looked. #3 rod bearing had side movement with the journal on the down stroke, but was tight with the journal at 90⁰...so maybe.....just maybe it was a **** poor crank grind... I always say there's 2 commodities a man can spend to accomplish things...1- time 2- money...I'm going to be spending both so we'll get er figured out
You will need to measure the bore on that rod as well. I would also suggest checking that bearing shell.
if by some strange chance, that rod bearing was a .020 under or a defective one, you may have distorted the rod cap when you torqued it up. that would require removal of the rod and getting it resized on the big end or replaced.
Read this-refer to 0016-00 for crank specs. Only difference is cam and followers. To cut through the speculative bs. http://www.jatonkam35s.com/M915TMs/ntc400/TM9-2815-225-34P.pdf
Well I don't overly like that my 83 year old uncle and I are getting good at this engine removal. But in 3.5hrs we had the block on the shop floor and the crankshaft out...we already had the pan off though. The rod journals mic at between 3.1155" and 3.115". All the rod bearings were marked 10/1000. I never measured the mains. I only plastigauged rod #3 that was tight. It showed 1/1000 clearance...pretty tight no? I never gauged the problem #1 rod. By my novice machinist measurement it looks like rod #1 journal needs to be ground another 20/1000 to make perfect again..that would be 30/1000 total... Taking the crank to someone smarter than me in the am...a 2hr drive.
Are you even sure you got the same crank back from the machine shop? When having machine work done it's wise to get a letter stamp and stamp your initials on the parts where no one will notice. Hell that crank could be bent also for all you know.
As mentioned check the rods. If you cannot bolt the rod caps on and measure the bore take them with you as well. They can get distorted. A good shop can remachine them if needed.
Need right at .002 - .003 thou for proper clearance .001 too tight .0045 too wide
just my 2 cents. plastigage is supposed to be done dry to get actual clearance. to save time when i do it, i only lube the upper shells of the mains or rods and install the caps dry with plastigage. then i remove and check the plastigage and it will show less( maybe .001) because of the lube in the upper half. and when plastigaging mains on an in-frame the crank needs to be held up by a hyd jack on an adjacent counterweight to avoid having the weight of the crank distort the actual plastigage reading. then after, i wiggle the rod side to side to make sure it has movement
Think we have the issue solved. When the crank was magnafluxed there was an anomaly on rod journal #1. You couldn't see it or feel it. So between myself and a couple experienced mechanics input I decided to put the crank back in...just this am the #1 rod journal was turned down to .030" undersized...this is what it looks like...looks like a previous owner had an issue and they welded and turned down this spot and lucky me..I found it. New crankshaft on its way. A flake of that weld mustve broken out and piled up in the bearing. Actually glad it happened now instead of later
Always some cheap bas*ard somewhere that makes a guy's life miserable and expensive. Absolutely a good thing you had it happen before the first start.
I will sleep a little better now.
On the old two piece cranks, Cummins had Small Cam engines with a tapered nose crankshaft and a end flange the damper attached to while was a replaceable seal surface instead of riding direct against crank.. Held on crank by one LARGE bolt and a BAD BOY to get off when time to replace a front seal. Really ugly when mekaniks would not get that seated properly torqued the bolt and let it rip, generally to throw that and the damper off to major carnage when failed. Pulled a couple of old 190 and 220 engines for replacement on old P&H crane and trucks when did just that.
Well the engine is set back in the tractor...hope to hit the starter button tomorrow afternoon sometime...will keep you posted...
Might be a bit on the paranoid side but if it was me I would have probably hooked some batteries to that engine while hanging from the chain falls and spun it over till it showed some oil pressure at the least! Just about every engine, back when management let us do our own engine work at the quarry, we rebuilt was hooked to a water barrel and fired up before being installed in the machine. Some of our equipment could take a couple days to install an engine to the point it was ready to start so removing a second time for what could be a minor fix was not something we wanted to do. Actually back when the quarry shop was first started the boss at that time 90% of the time would have an engine run-in on a dyno at the dealer before installing. Guess the fact that we never had a failure doing that got them to thinking that was a waste of time and money!
Well....engine cranks over just dandy...65psi oil pressure....but....now I've got a major fuel leak between heads 1 and 2 and 2 and 3...that middle head is the new one from India...pretty sure I never checked the fuel plugs on the ends of that head. (hindsight) So....after lunch I guess I get to rip and tear again! Haha...at least there's still snow on the ground here and I'm not in a panic to get in the field....
did you put the crossovers in?
Yes. Looking from the top the crossovers look dry.
Got the head off....I'm such an idiot. The fuel plugs arent even in...
OOOPSY!!
Has anyone seen this before? It's like a furrel under the head. I dont remember them on the initial tear down and there are 3 of them. They are tapered on one side and the head has a taper in the one port. They fit perfectly. My big cams sure dont hav e this. First time I've torn apart a SC.
Looks like what was used on old Cat engines only it is silver in color. The bevel went up on the Cats as well.
Yeah, I have seen those.
Don't know the exact applications but do remember those on some of the older Cummins engines. As for the forgetting to check the plugs in the head I could tell the one about the 16V-71 we had taken out one of the one inch plugs that was under the head to have access to one of the bolts that hold the two halves of the block together. Forget the exact reason we had to take it out but we were filling the test run tank with engine on the floor when we heard water running somewhere and when checking oil level noticed it was way over full! Can you believe Norm and I had the one head off plug installed and we were just finishing adjusting the rack on the engine when boss walked in the door?
Overhead on a Cummapart, Rack on a Driptroit.
Interesting comments here. One of my friends was retired and would come help out because he knew I needed the help ( which I did ) but he was really just looking for something to do. He was an experienced boat man, pilot, fiberglass, machine work etc. He built a 350 boat engine and fired it up sitting on jack stands. Never heard of that before. Those furrels go way back but yes I remember them. The colored seals in the head gasket go back as well. Some kits came with three different colored seals. They were different thicknesses. Pick the one that best fit for the erosion on your block. This is a good wake up call for me and everyone to double check the work others do before you install their products. Had a Mack getting fuel in the crankcase. Plug was loose in the fuel galley at the front of the block. 8V92 was leaking fuel at the back of the head. Off road machine and was glad to get it in a dirt floor barn. Loose plug in the back of the head but it had been running here for a year or two. I had a book out and the boss said " I thought you said you worked on these before? " Yes but Kennedy was president.
Got it running! Trying to post a video but says the file is too large...80psi engine oil pressure. That's where it used to be years ago. Usually drops to 60-65psi when the oil is hot...
Running it up to temp right now...found a couple small coolant leaks and a loose fuel line...so far...high idle is set at 2200rpm but low idle is like 600...working on that now
Got er done today. Thanks for all the help guys.
Looks great! What are you going to pull with it?
I currently pull 37' chisel plow as my nh3 applicator. Has a trimble 750 gps in the cab with full sectional control. I put about 100hrs per year on the old girl. I'd like to find a nice 45' chisel plow to pull behind it now though. If I do find a 45' I think it'd be smart to rig an aftercooler onto the engine though.
Water jacket cooler? I have a buddy that thought it would be great to put a ATA on a Big Cam 400. Doesn't work that well. Smokes horrible until it's warmed up, which doesn't happen until he's running down the road. The intercooler acts as much like a preheater as it does an aftercooler.
Any big cams will smoke cold, until coolant temp reaches 130* to 140* it's common. It's a fixed time engine-they smoke cold-The engine hasn't been in production since 1992 everyone has forgot how bad they smoke cold-It's one reason the emission laws came into effect - dirty engines. Some Cummins CPL's are worse than others such as a CPL449-smokes horribly cold and did it from day one. As for installing a Air Charge Cooler on a Big Cam it works just fine.
How much turbo boost would this 335 (cpl0069)have if it was working hard? It's doing everything I am asking of it with 10-12psi boost. The most I've seen the gauge go to is 14. It blows no black smoke. It has if I remember the # right...AR12600 turbo. I honestly dont think I have enough weight on the tractor to actually put this engine to work.
Early 335, what series pump is on it, is it aneroid equipped that is still functional? Or been converted to a later style pump with built in A/F pressure control?
Turbo'd 220-262 about 9 to 11 lbs boost, 335 with that turbo which spooled up slow 14 to 16 on the top, Small cam 350 20 to 22 range, Big cam depending on turbo 24 to 27.
It's a 1975 small cam 855. Not sure which series pump. Pump was rebuilt this winter and injectors were tested. The pump looks identical to my big cam 400 cpl531 in my western star except the throttle linkage is hooked to a higher spot.
PT pump no aneroid-NTC-335 CPL 069---But engine was a recon because all small cams after 1971 were NTC 350's. The 335 was discontinued in 1971. Big cams started in 1976.
Buddy of mine several years ago did buy a ‘71 K100 with a non aftercooled 335 still in it Pump that was on it looked odd just looking under and had a aneroid section on it plumbed to intake just like a 290BC as got a light on it CPL was correct to engine just added fuel air control, supposedly just majored by Cummins where smoked blue on startup as all the 335s did
So 14psi is max with this engine with this turbo and log manifold? Would a turbo upgrade make any more power?
Simple answer, No. Turbo on the early engines was a "altitude Compensator" not a supercharger. Aided with fuel burn but was largely there to compensate for Thin High elevation air.
You want a few more beans-install a water cooled/jacketed Cummins after cooler-A 350 small cam was basically nothing more than a aftercooled 335. One more reason Cummins discontinued the 335 early than people think-for $200 more you got a 350 aftercooled not much sense in building the same basic engine with only a 15 horse power spread. And by the way that engine you have NT855C280----the C stands for construction/industrial. The horse power 280 at 2100rpm. Anytime a CPL is followed with a letter it's going to be a industrial engine of some sort. Cummins was famous for building all sorts of Franken Fruiter engines after the production dwindled or was stopped. That tractor company wanted some cheap power so Cummins cleaned the warehouse and built what ever was suitable for the client. One of my favorite CPL's for power is 1193-factory 450 hp big cam 3. Built IN Late 1995. Long after the big cam 3 had stopped regular production. But it's listed as NTA855-P on the data plate, The P stands for industrial application also-and the one that I know of powers a TUB grinder.
So if I upgraded to a holset ht3b the smart move would be to install the aftercooler at the same time? That's what I've been thinking all along. But I also had a thought with this rebuilt engine that I'd get more turbo boost out of the same old vt50 turbo than before the rebuild. And I'm not. Thanks
If you install a HT3B turbo which spools up fast you need/should install a aftercooler.
May need to add fuel to get it to spool up enough. Diesels are a strange beast, they only ask for the air they need to make design HP, too little fuel and the Holset MAY gain 1-2 psi maybe not..
For starters-10% over fuel with button change and go from there.