I Have a 86 TD8E that I bought for working on some property I purchased . I'll start off by stating that I am a commercial fisherman by trade and have no formal heavy equipment training, but I am mechanically inclined and have rebuilt numerous gas automotive engines top to bottom. When I bought it everything worked as it should and I have put about 120 hrs on it. I noticed it was starting to get hotter and hotter as time went on, progressively getting overheated faster and faster and I'm now at the point that it only takes 35-45 minutes and I have to stop. Here are the things that I have done so far. 1. When purchased it had a leaky valve cover gasket and the muffler was shot. Replaced the gasket, this is the only engine work done. After about 80 hours I got tired of sucking in exhaust fumes so I replaced the muffler with one I found online specifically for this machine at Finney equipment parts. Shortly after this is when I started to notice the over heating, so I took the muffler off and put a 4 ft straight pipe on it. Still was getting abnormally hot. 2. Drained and flushed the system with Prestone radiator flush. The original fluid seemed to be close to brand new in color. Replaced the fluid and still overheated so I repeated. Two flushes and new coolant mixed at proper ratios - Still overheated. 3. Replaced water pump belt and tightened. No luck 4. Replaced thermostat and inspected all hoses except the one going into the bottom of the radiator, replaced the two hoses for the oil cooler. Still overheated. At this point I will note that the original fluid was green and what I put in it was yellow and every hose I took off had yellow coolant in that area so it seemed to me it was circulating, maybe not enough? 5. Replaced the water pump which required pulling the radiator half way out so inspected lower hose and inlet, everything normal. Old water pump seemed OK but put the new one on anyways (pulling the radiator was not fun or easy so it wasn't going to be for nothing). Used air to clean out fins of the radiator and transmission cooler (two separate units). All factory shrouds in place. While putting the fan back on i realized it went on both ways so I just looked at the rotation of the water pump and put the fan on by referencing my truck. Once it was back together and running I took some dried grass and sprinkled it in front of the radiators and it was sucked in so the fan was installed correctly. Still overheating 6. Now i figure maybe the gauge is bad so I purchased a laser temp gun at Harbor Freight and started temping the engine at various points when the engine got to the check point on the gauge. Crankcase, cylinders, thermostat housing, water pump - all were in the range of 210 - 220 degrees. Hoses around 195. I took off the radiator cap (safely under a thick towel) and used a deep fry thermometer and the coolant temp was 190. If I ran it for another 15 minutes under load the engine gunned at 230. 7. This is the point I found this forum and joined so I could post my issues. Found the thread of the gentlemen having similar problems with a D7G and one suggestion was to laser temp the top and bottom. Did that and they both were around 200 degrees so again it seems it's circulating There also was a mention about other fluids so I checked the transmission oil level and it was a little low but clear, topped it off. I believe though with a separate cooler for the transmission they are two separate systems. I have been trying to clear off the building site for our new home before I have to go back to work and can't run it longer than 35 minutes, very frustrating. I've included a picture of the fan. Any suggestions? Here is a link to the project I'm working on for those interested, all kinds of equipment being used. - http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/projects/296374-80-acres-eagle-creek-oregon-2.html
One of our resident experts will surely be along in a moment but straight off the bat I notice a few possible things worth commenting. 1. You say that you took the temperatures of the top & bottom radiator hoses and both were around 200 degrees. This indicates to me the coolant MIGHT NOT be circulating correctly through the radiator because a radiator in good condition will show a temperature difference of around 10-12 lower in the bottom hose that the top one. That is how you prove the radiator is extracting heat as the coolant flows through the inside of the radiator core and the air flows over the outside. Please re-check and confirm your actual numbers. 2. Generally in a track-type tractor the radiator fan is set to blow air out of the radiator rather than suck it in as is the case on every other type of machine. This is so the radiator does not get contaminated by dust from the material being pushed by the tractor. So your fan is the wrong way round, however that should not make much difference if any at all to your overheating issue. 3. Someone with more practical knowledge of your particular tractor will chime in I'm sure but it looks to me as though the fan isn't located physically far enough into the radiator shroud to ensure that all the air pushed/pulled by the fan will actually go through the radiator. this would lead to a loss of fan efficiency.
That was fast!! The dozer is in a different location and I'm headed out there now. I'll switch the fan around and re-check the numbers.
I would re-check the numbers before and after switching the fan TBH, just to see if it makes any difference.
1. Agreed that both temps too close together is the first thing that jumps out as a problem. But I say that's not enough air flow to cool the water off. 2. That fan just looks backwards, agreed there too. If it blows forward, switch it. 3. I didn't notice the distance, but that's why Nige is here. In the automotive world fan spacers used to be common, just a cylinder with four bolt holes. Did the fan bolts have original paint on them? or is the shroud able to be moved back possibly? Also, it is difficult to clean a radiator unless it's out and separated from the oil cooler so you can see exactly where the dirt is built up. Can you get enough access to see through it, maybe with a light on the other side?
If you put your fan on backwards, it will not make a push fan into a pull fan or vice versa. It does matter which way it goes, though. The concave side should always be facing downwind, which appears not to be the case on yours. Marine engines don't have fans...I know.
Okay, let's start by correcting an oft repeated incorrect assumption: Turning a fan around will not reverse air flow, it only makes the fan horribly inefficient, it will still suck air, it just doesn't move near as much. From the picture your fan looks correct, with the curve to the front so it will scoop the air toward the engine. Oh, I see check has beaten me to the button on that one, lol. One observation though, it looks to me like you need a spacer, the fan should be mostly buried in the shroud for most efficient air movement, keeping in mind you need an inch or so of radiator clearance minimum. If that spacing hasn't changed though that's probably not why you have slowly developed a heating issue. Head gasket, liner, fuel system, turbo? You did install the thermostat with the copper capsule toward the block yes?
If the overheating is something that has developed slowly and now the water pump & thermostat have both been changed my focus would be on a radiator core that is slowly plugging either externally or internally - or both. That said the distance of the fan spider with respect to the fan shroud is not helping the air flow through the radiator.
I'm wondering if the timing has advanced somehow? Does it have a cold start advance? Just a thought. You put 120hrs on it before having overheating issues so it can't be the fan causing the issue... Did you do a valve set whilst the rocker cover was off?? Any smoke out the exhaust. I've seen some engines overheat from leaking Thermostart units dripping fuel into the intake, I don't think your engine would have that. Is it a DT239?
I made it out there and removed the fan, noticed that with enough torque removing the bolts I could turn the fan slightly. Maybe the new belt stretched a little. Took the air hose and blew through the radiator and wow, lots of dust!!!! Did that for a good 10 minutes from both sides, put the fan back on. Forgot to mention that when i was flushing the system i also sprayed water through the radiator for awhile until it was coming out the other side pretty clear, I could see the front of it from the radiator access lid on the top. Put the fan back on and tightened up the tension on the belt so I couldn't move it. Started it up and a huge cloud of dust blew out forward. This picture is from the other side and isn't quite as close, hopefully it's enough to see.
Okay now I really am confused? Does the fan spin clockwise then? If so you do have a pusher fan and it was on backwards, as further evidenced by the picture showing how it appears to protrude further into the shroud?
Ran it up to the check point, and it did take about an hour so it seemed to help a little. Here are the temps - taken twice. Ran it up took temps, let it cool down a little then ran it back up. Had to cause I couldn't believe the difference, results close to the same. Took another side picture so you can see the different areas, hopefully i use the right name for them. 1. radiator top - 190 bottom - 170 2. water pump - 195 3. bottom inlet hose housing - 170 4. top inlet hose housing - 190 5. bottom of thermostat housing - 190 6. top of thermostat housing - 210 7. oil cooler and feed tubes - 190 8. block around crankcase area - 200 9. cylinder access cover - 190 So the gauge is still reading hot but the temps have come down some but I would imagine if I kept running it the temps would keep rising. Seems the hottest areas are around the exhaust. The turbo seems to be working cause I can hear the whistle and it changes with the rpm's.
Sitting in the seat it spins counter-clockwise. I noticed on the other side the shroud has a dent in it giving it the appearance it's further away, but even the most furthest forward portion of the fan blades just reach the shroud, no part of the fan is in the shroud.
Copper capsule is down, turbo seems to be working. I can hear the whistle and it changes with the rpm's. Replaced fuel filters.
Okay, so the fan turns counterclockwise, standard rotation. Did you turn the fan around then because it was correct in the first picture and it looks wrong from this side? Also, there are usually some rubber air seal flaps on both sides of the radiator, does your machine have them and are they in good shape? If you're only getting to 190, with good differential from top to bottom of the raditaor I think you need to check your gauge, your thermostat should be 180 minimum and maybe 195 was it stamped? I wouldn't get excited until it was up around 230, others may disagree.....
It is a DT239. Have no Idea what a cold start advance is, but I do have a full set of manuals - operator's, service and parts. All I did was change the gasket, nothing else and there is minimal smoke out the exhaust. One thing to mention now that you have mentioned fuel is it will not start without a little squirt of starting fluid, cold or hot. I do make sure it's cranking over before I give it a shot. The guy I bought it from said that right off the get go, he had other machinery around and seemed to have some sort of business so i didn't think much of it. I have also put brand new intake filters in, both inner and outer.
When I first started this that's were it was at 230, that part must have been in the "proper operating temps for D7G" thread, and what prompted me to start this. If I keep running it the temps will keep going up. The rubber flaps were in good shape. I bought the thermostat online, the box had the right parts number on it but I didn't actually look at it before installing. I had already left to change the fan before your first post, now I'm confused!!!
That would be clockwise from the front. Standard rotation. Then it's a pull fan, not a push fan. The fan is on backwards because the concave side is facing front.
So did it blow the dust out the front of the radiator? or suck it back around the engine when you started it up? The dust you blew out indicates that it's still dirty. You can't tell without seeing through it front to back. Looking at it from the top or side only tells you the front is clean. With a 20 degree drop across the radiator, the water side could be plugged a bit also? Backflushing the radiator with a both hoses removed and a garden hose running into it, with an air hose with a rag around it to blast the bottom hole, will send a stream of dirty water out the top, repeat until the water comes clean, no residue in the bottom of a bucket.
Since you've already had the rocker cover off I would do a valve set then you can rule that out. Any time I service an engine with no history I run an overhead adjustment.
I agree!
How do you do this? Pick one sentence from one post of mine, answer it. Then pick one sentence from someone else's separate post and answer it and have it all show up in one post.
Do you mean multi quote? The little quotation mark with the + far right bottom of the post. click the one(s) you want to quote then click reply with quote on the last one.
I switched it around Sorry about the confusion on my part, I should have remembered when timing an engine the rotation and firing order are expressed from the front, so it does turn clockwise from the front making it a pull fan and the original picture is correct. I need to switch it back - because.. Yes, after switching it the dust blew out the front, or appeared to. So i need to switch it back around. Hopefully this turns out right and will make it easier to respond to multiple ideas at once. Thanks for all the responses and eventually we'll get this figured out.
Then you have to click on "go advanced" and just delete text you don't want.
The first post said that it sucked grass toward the radiator, and that would mean the fan IS correctly installed in the first pic. Switching the fan around won't make it blow forward, like flipping a nut around on a bolt won't make it left hand threads. So I don't see how it could blow dust out the front? It's like 70% less efficient if the fan is on backwards, combined with a STILL dirty radiator, that would do it.
As far back as that fan is and installed backwards, the tip wash blasting into the shroud probably would give you a big puff of dust until the air all got to moving in the correct direction?? Not really important but when a machine does something odd, it's a head scratcher!
If you remove a bolt from a firewall and screw it back in on the other side of the firewall, you still screw clockwise to install and counterclockwise to remove. The only exception would be a screw and nut with left hand threads. It's the same with fans. Turning it around does not reverse the flow. The pitch is the same. The only difference is which side the concave is on.
Dust and fine trash will block a radiator core, holds the heat, and restricts the air flow. Have on some machines doing land clearing and working in dusty conditions had to blow out the radiator core once or twice a day with an air compressor or if we had a reversible fan we would turn the blades around for 1/2 hr or so the reversed airflow would pull the crap out of the core. Think some of the newer machines designed to work in landfills have automatically reversing fans to purge the radiators of rubbish, paper and plastic block a radiator very quickly in a land fill situation. If u are working in dusty conditions or clearing vegetation a blower fan is best, a sucker fan pulls in trash from the blade. Be careful when washing out a radiator with air or water as to much pressure can cause the fins on the core to bend there by restricting air flow, loose fan belts and or worn fan pulley can also cause the fan to not rotate as fast as it should.
I'm sure it was just air moving in the space, I've switched the fan back again. Numerous comments on this so I pulled out my parts catalog and looks like there is supposed to be a spacer for the suction fans, only they have 4 blades. Mines a 6 blade, and it says that it's reversible. It doesn't look like the 6 blade in the picture, more thin like the 4 blade suction fans. Guess I could still see if I can find a spacer to get it further in the shroud. It also shows cage and mounting holes in the shroud, which I don't have. It's possible I guess someone put a different fan on it.
Check the temp on the trans cooler also, a bad bearing in a torque converter will heat up and cause a overheat condition.
I think we've beat this death already, but it is funny that they have the blower and suction fans, #5 and #7, switched around, or drawn backwards or something. #4 reverses by rotating each blade about 90 degrees, not flipping the fan around. I've seconded, and now we have a third, all signs point to a plugged radiator. And should have the spacer also.
Actually the Horse is on the ground and the vultures are circling, but it still seems to be breathing. I will admit that I neglected to be diligent in cleaning the fins of the radiator which hasn't helped any, but now that it's somewhat clean..... Does anyone know what the function of the unit that has the short 90* hose going into the thermostat housing is? I can't find a schematic in any manuals, it does have what appears to be an access cover in the back. At the bottom is where the hose from the bottom of the radiator comes in. The temps rise 20 degrees in only about 16 inches.
Kinda looks like the bypass for the thermostat so water circulates around the engine when the thermostat is closed. Those temps don't show much. It might show something if some were up to 230. Give the poor Chinese orphans a break, you're expecting too much from HF. That thermometer probably has an 8:1 ratio, meaning if it's 8" from the object it will measure a 1" circle, but you still might be thrown off by the manifold close by. Only the top of the thermostat housing and the crankcase temps stand out, no idea on the top of the thermostat housing. Any chance the oil level has crept up?
That's just the flow from the water pump if I'm understanding you correctly....
Nope, oil level stays the same. every once and awhile I have to add. Took a couple more pictures. It looks like there is one big plate mounted to the front of the block. The water pump is mounted to this plate as is the housing that the hoses are connected to. they aren't directly linked. There is a part number stamped in the front of the housing so I'll have to talk to a dealer to find out, I went through every page of my manuals and still can't find it.
So, unfortunately I have been called back to work. I was hoping to get this figured out before I left. My plan at this point is to replace the gauge, radiator cap, and put another thermostat in (from the dealership) when I get back in about 3 months. If that doesn't solve it pull the radiator again, UGH!! Should have just took it in the first time I had it out. Thanks for all the input and if someone comes across this that has a TD8E s/n 9500 and up I'd like to see a picture of your fan setup.