The 8V92TA in our truck has gradually started running hotter and hotter. The big Horton fan rarely came on but now it comes on driving down a flat road if the truck is loaded. I have had the radiator out, cleaned and rodded twice, thermostats checked and or replaced, new water pump kit too. This has been slowly getting worse over the last few years but it really needs to be sorted before this summer. Running empty is not a problem but with a load and especially on a hot day the poor old fan is cutting in and out regularly. I had to rebuild the Horton last summer. Two temp gauges are working correctly. The engine hasn't had a top tune for a fair while and it had the turbo replaced a few years back that was leaking oil past the seal. With that in mind if it sucked oil for a while I assume that the after cooler will be caked up and need to be removed and cleaned which is my next step. Question is could the after cooler being caked up if it is actually cause the overheating? It doesn't use any water or bubble. Any ideas appreciated
Since this a truck application it's going to be a bit different set-up than what I would normally see. Is your fan capable of running in a manual mode........where it will stay on fulltime by a dash switch? If so.........does it still overheat when engaged? Airflow could make some difference, but it would affect compression also. Does it run normally when overheating? Have you checked condition of the fan blades and belts? Since Detroit's have a quick wind up, slipping belts is a common problem. I believe a throttle delay cylinder is pretty normal for truck applications and the wind up may not be an issue if your engine is equipped with that option. Also, if possible, check the engine exhaust for heavy black smoke under a load. Over fueling will cause heat also.
The aftercooler is quite small and prone to plugging and restricting the air flow. It also does not make much difference in power when its working right. We used to take them out and plug the coolant passages that fed the aftercooler. The throttle delay cylinder was usually removed the first time the valve covers were off. If the aftercooler is still in there and plugged you should have lost some power and see an increase in black smoke.
Do you just have a radiator in front or is there ac or a cac?
The reply's will be interesting.
There may not be any lol
Thanks for that. There is nothing in front of the radiator and nothing has changed on the truck over the years from when it would run a normal temperature. So the question still remains can a clogged after cooler affect the water temperature?
Huffa, Don’t mess around. Those cylinder heads crack at the first overheat. Or, if you look at them funny.
Oh yip so if the heads or a head was cracked could it cause overheating without using water?
This is a long-shot. Check the injector and valve settings. An ill-timed engine can run hot. This is something to look at if you start to run out of answers.
Any shrouds or air dams around the rad that have disappeared over the years?
Now--has anyone checked to see if the coolant is circulating properly. Coolant pumps do wear out.
Wait- WHAT the- I thought you had a iron clad, no special circumstances rule about dealing with black rubber band clad road warrior equipment? And yet here we are. This has disturbed my feng shui.
Truck Shop, can’t check for coolant flow yet. Not until page two, at least. Then we can start actual trouble shooting. Strictly time for sharing conjectures at this point.
There ain't going to be a page two. too many of those.
Lol.
I read about it in some book lol
He said new water pump
So it gad a brand new genuine water pump kit/impeller go into it - no difference . No shrouds have come or gone
Coolant concentration? Rust or scale buildup in the block?
Ok-It's had stats, water pump, radiator core cleaned, fan hub rebuilt, belts, shrouds are in-place, nothing obstructing air flow to radiator. Any extra crud should have been found in core if it came from block. If it was that far out of tune it should be low on power and high fuel consumption, more than it would consume normally. If it had psi above normal in the coolant system it should be pushing coolant past cap. So tear down time.
I agree with truck shop, all the work/parts you've done and the overheating has been progressive over time, it's a good possibility crusty stuff is blocking coolant ports in the head and/or block restricting coolant flow. Now matter how good the pump is, rad, thermo's, if it can't flow it won't cool. Tear the heads off and get a look around in there.
Coolant 50/50. Clean as a whistle inside waterpump
That doesn't necessarily mean the innards of the engine is clean as a whistle.
Thank You Willie.
Yip I hear you. So waste of time just cleaning the after cooler and a tune? That was my next move
I don't know about the after cooler to be certain, but logically if the after cooler were clogged it would restrict intake air flow which would decrease the air charge inside the combustion chambers which would typically produce black smoke because the air/fuel ratio is now out of whack. With enough reduction in air flow/air charge then the engine would suffer from power loss as well, it would run like crap. Whether or not it would cause overheating, don't know, but really doesn't make logical sense. That's just me thinking out loud.
Check the delta T across the radiator when She’s hot and bothered and the T-stat is open. Grab a infrared thermometer. 7-12 deg. F is normal. Greater than that = flow problem. Less than that = capacity problem. Doesn’t cost anything and takes the mystery away.
Does this truck have shutters in front of the rad?
I've seen a couple of V-92TA engines with much the same problem experienced in this thread. Both were clogged intercoolers under the blowers. Both engines had defective rubber elbows and joints on their respective air filter housing plumbing installations. One, (truck installation) had a small hole pierced in a rubber boot for ether injection to be covered by adhesive tape afterward, and the other, (standby engine generator) had deteriorated boots. Both engines had a "carpet" of muck on their respective coolers. Power was down and smoke was up as was operating temperature from the resulting over fueling. Neither engine was hurt and performance returned to normal after cleaning and routine maintenance adjustments.
That's what we're looking for, techniques for narrowing down the issue of cause. Huf stated it was a progressing problem, not "always had this problem", meaning, it has progressively gotten worse, meaning, something has changed. Not a sudden change, as in something went south, but for sure something has changed or is in the process of change. This is an interesting problem, one I'm curious to follow to conclusion.
After sleeping on it, one from the past. Farmer brought a ten wheeler in with a smoking low power issue, not necessarily a heating issue. After looking it over I noticed something rather odd, {this was a 855 Cummins}. I removed the crossover from aftercooler to turbo used a scope to see, then called farmer. He and his son showed up, I pointed to the aftercooler with a question, who's been greasing this truck? Son said I have. The farmer had removed the ether start and plugged the the port with a zerk, two years before. Now it smoked, was down on power some but really didn't cause a heating issue. Something that happened over time.
Thanks for everyone's input, it's much appreciated, some good ideas been thrown around
Is there any way that I can flow test the cooling system if I installed some full flow thermostats?
The aftercooler in that engine is tiny. I can't imagine how it could make any difference in power. They were notorious getting plugged over time.
When that core is plugged from foreign matter it precludes free flowing air much the same as a severely restricted filter. The two stroke engines require all the breathing air they can get and when it's restricted, power falls off quickly. Engine temperature elevates also as the intake air is not cooled unbalancing the fuel/air ratio and driving up engine heat as a result.
One question the OP hasn't really answered, is it producing more smoke than it use to and is it low on power.
Difficult to flow test, but you certainly can check pressures. But, similar and more useful data can be collected by checking water in, water out and water mix temps. So many weird things can slow coolant flow. Like a deteriorating hose liner plugging the oil cooler inlet. Another cheap trick is to spray the radiator with water to detect a cold spot. If the coolant stays in the radiator too long, the temp difference between top tank and bottom tank will be significant. That indicates a flow problem. Our industry has forgotten how useful a pyrometer can be. Exhaust temps can shed light on intake restriction or over-fueling issues in real time.
Or a radiator/cooling system that is flowing well and cooling.
Or blue paper shop towels someone shoved in open hoses/ports while doing repairs and forgot to remove them. Have found two 3406's that had plugged oil cooler after water pump change.
What kind of antifreeze is in it? For a time there were a lot of issues with silicate drop out plugging passages in diesel engines. As far as intercooler plugging, are we talking about external plugging of the fins or internal plugging of the tubes? It is mentioned about intercoolers under the blowers. I don't recall seeing that but then again, I've never worked on 92s in trucks or gensets.
From years ago I remember a product called NALCOOL that was to prevent and remove internal engine scaling.
That thing has a guilty look about it.
It came out of a 2 stroke so yes it is guilty of several crimes.
The crappy part about the situation is even if it went to a shop, the average Zoomer or Millennial Tech isn’t going to know what to do. 1980 just called and they want their 8v-92 back. It’s going to take a crusty, scarred up, grey haired Dude with a bad back to figure it out. They are very unique engines. I grew up with them, worked for a Detroit Dealer and went to numerous classes on the two-stroke. I still haven’t washed all the black, carbon fouled, 40wt low ash off my skin.
You just described me to a T, except I got rid of my two stroke tools along time ago. And I despise them.
I've kept my specialty tools for these engines though not worked on one in years with anything major. Always found them easy to work on and if one was "in tune" with what they were working with, was a very easy series of engine to repair and maintain.
I didn’t hang onto any of my Detroit stuff. It’s been a long time since I’ve done any major work on one. Especially a 92. The occasional fire truck or boat is the only place to run across them.
He said HAIRED dude lol
I still have a 12V-71T, a 6V-92TA, and a 3-53 at my place so the need remains. Once I locate a decent 4-53 I'll repower my portable air compressor from it's current Continental gasoline engine too.
There is still a ton of these junk engines in the oil field but they don't last very long because I think the mechanics don't know what they are doing with them anymore, they used to last forever. Still don't have any power we had one rig with a 6v92t 325hp and one with a l10 Cummins 260 HP and the l10 had more useable power, and would start at any temperature. That boat anchor of a engine made me a Cummins guy for heavy duty diesels
On all 2 stroke Detroit the torque curve is above 80% of the rated rpm setting. I don't know how many times over the years ide go out to one that was being run at half throttle with a complaint of weak power. Ide tell them to throttle it up to full rpm and it solved their power problem. They would scratch their heads not understanding that concept at all.
That's 'cause they drove a B model cat without a rack stop screw one time. After that they thought all engines run that way. I doubt if one guy in a hundred on this forum was alive when the 2 cycle Detroit made its debut.
I appreciate the pure mechanical technology and love the sound and smell of a Detroit screaming. Don’t get me wrong. There is a service niche opportunity out there. Especially in the marine market for someone willing to work on them. But, there certainly isn’t a shortage of other stuff to repair. Why bother? I’m going to ultrasound a tank. Meanwhile, the broken Detroit’s can stay broken.
1 guy in a thousand lol 1931 or 1934 or something lol
My local Detroit dealer here won't even build the 2 stroke engines anymore. I was told by someone there in authority that they can't find trained people to do anything with them.
Did my time floundering in carbon transferring oil and ignorant governors stick sensitive tiny parts requiring hand lapping, doing things no one could predict, 53s, 71s, 92s, not looking back and essentially gave away all my tooling to JY!!!! Is a Reason they disappeared from NEW Use.
Some guys have a head full of hair-and that's all the fack they got too. As far as Detroit 2 strokes-It was a cheap engine to build and good in there day. But the two stroke days are done, some just don't realize it yet. It consumes too much fuel, takes up too much space in V8 form, Always was a dirty engine, plus is a contributor to noise pollution. And has a dire need to be run on the governor. Equipment manufactures liked them years ago because it was a cheap engine to power equipment, trucks and boats. But the two stroke is nothing more than a filthy pig wallering in it's own outdated/obsolete pig sty.
I look at the two strokes and older equipment a little differently; but, if it still brings home the "bacon", it has value, (to me).
What ever powers your boat.
About the only reason anyone runs them now days is for two reasons, one cause they got it cheap or two cause it's the only thing that helps them get it up anymore since anyone that remembers them is at that age is needing help by now in that department and the sound of them does just that.
There is a new wave of the younger generations that have that same problem. Some of the other forums I visit it's a constant question {Does it have a V-12?}=boner. They don't understand what it's like listening to that after 12 hours. Plus in those days no one really wanted to admit they were driving a Detroit powered truck==sack over head. Under powered noise maker on a 6 mile 6% grade in 4th gear in a 13spd {or less} just grinding along. Clean shaved at the bottom of the hill by the time they crested the summit they had grown a full beard. Anything less than a V92 was a gutless dog, and even that was a turd when it came to using the jake down the other side. Sorry fellas but anyone who spent day after day setting on top of one of those in a cab over couldn't wait for new trucks to arrive powered with Cummins or Cat. Fact.
I've made a fortune off them & I still see some from time to time. There is NOTHING that has ever had my heart racing as bad as a runaway Detroit. ............that includes every woman in my life.
When I bought my rig I got it cheap with a 671. Having done a ton of wells in the past with one I wasn't scared and I made money with the noisy pos. It did even run away on me one time. When I overheated the transmission I changed the engine and transmission at the same time. The money that the 671 made me was it's demise as well
Probably a geographic thing also. Lot of the now gone fleets had them by the score due to rugged simplicity, cost of acquisition, and operation. Strickland, Mclean, Yellow, Roadway, etc. had dozens of them running constantly. I well remember them running Rt. 66 between St. Louis, and Chicago. Kind of a love or hate relationship with drivers and/or mechanics was my experience. I have always liked them as kind of the small block Chevy of diesels.
I trained on them when I was really young so I will always have a love for them. Once they get in your blood you can never shake them. It's actually a treat for me when I get called out on one.................brings back a lot of fine memories! I was told wayy back that if you can build a Detroit 2 stroke properly then you can build ANY engine. The set-up is always the funnest part for me.............I enjoy the challenge of getting them perfectly tuned.
I ran TS-14’s when i was fresh out of high school. After the first couple days i bought earmuff type protectors. I got used to the scream. I miss it. It reminds me of my youth and now i’m just a cranky old guy with various ailments. Ah, to be 18 again with what i know now……..
They were on the way out when I was on my way into turning wrenches. The crane co I worked at had a bunch. They made an impression on me and I dig em. Would I want to sit behind one all day? Nope. Do I like running our old crane with one or the crane attachment? Yep.
When I took the engine portion of my apprenticeship, we were informed by our instructor that we would be the last class to even touch on 2 stroke Detroits. They were being completely removed from the program and the next class would have a lot more emission information in it. That was well over a decade ago. Never really cared much for engine work myself to be honest, I was more interested in hydraulics, electrical and drivetrain.
Its funny how something when it was new or in being used was a good deal and some thought it was one of the best but when it gets old the way some talk about it how did they ever make it out the factory door. I worked on alot of them i ran alot off them and owned some i think Detroits were ok or maybe even very good . They were simply and very proven they filled the bill just at the time the world need a engine like them.
For about 35 years they were the best diesel available. The trouble was General Motors was full of car guys, who wanted to build cars. So GM built them and sold them and milked the cash cow. GM made half hearted attempts to replace it, any one remember the Toro-Flow or the 8.2L fuel pincher? It was the late '70's when GM got serous about a new heavy truck diesel, then shortly thereafter came the recession and 20% interest rates, so it was 1987 before the engine made its debut, and then the block was machined by an outside company in Detroit.
When the 92 Silver was introduced, that bad chicken was could be ternt’-up to 550hp with a set of injectors. Not a good fleet engine, but the owner-op’s liked them. Just enough extra to pass that company driver on the hill and get to the sort yard before it closed to get that extra load delivered. The good days before deregulation.
My father started his log trucking biz by purchasing used trucks from ITT Rayonier when they pulled out of Forks, Wa. Detroit powered. They all had the bad double o blocks and got replaced with the Silver under some kind of extended warranty. I don’t recall the deets. Always working on them. It would never fail. Perform the perfect tune-up. Get the injector sync perfect and have it running like a top. Then, something would happen that would require work on the top end and there goes the tune-up. A busted valve spring or a bad injector. Mx costs & downtime went down when we switched to Cummins. Better yet, when we switched to Cat.
Most of my work on them was in boats and for that nothing was better. Problems were with fuel and condensation. Boats would sit in the skids for months and when pulled into port the guys wouldn't strip the tanks. Water would hit a nozzle and away they would run. We had two variations on a theme. Utility boats with low block two valve heads and S65 injectors. Two personnel boats with rail car N engines running four valve heads and N90 injectors. The captains gig had a speed screw and would do about twenty five knots. The other P boat had a power screw and would only run around 12 to 14 knots. When I got out of the navy, the logging trucks were still running 8V71s at 350 horses. Cummins had the 350 small cam engines and the mix was about even. The green block 92s came out and worked well for a couple of years until the grenades in the basements started to explode. The Silvers then replaced the green blocks, a lot under warranty or factory campaigns but the damage was done. Cummins came out with the big cams and the hand writing was on the wall. When the 3406 Cats hit the markets and the EPA closed the door, that was the end of two strokes in trucking. The small engine market went on for I'm guessing another fifteen years. 4-53, 3-71 and 4-71s went in lots of gensets, welders, pumps and so on. Onan got into the light plants and small gensets, Deutz took over a lot of things, Lister was another and Deere got to be found in a lot of mid range stuff. Detroit was way ahead of everyone else though in electronic controls on engines. The Dedec systems we started seeing on the large haul trucks was miles ahead of everyone else.
The Green block 92's were designated OO, those were nothing more than a 8V-71 block machined for 92 liners, using 71 crank and rods. Had a real problem breaking main caps and some cranks. A model cat arrived in early/mid 70's, Big Cam Cummins arrived in 1976. Because of the issues with the OO, Detroit came out with a 200,000 mile warranty but the damage was done. If not for the Penske involvement Detroit was headed down the drain. Penske's Series 50, & 60 was the beginning of the true Tier 2 engine. It was damn near bullet proof compared to anything else. The designers of the Series engines knew 2 stroke power was a dead end, the way out was a revolutionary 4 stroke. In reality had it not been for the mistakes made with the 92, Detroit probably wouldn't be where it's at today with better than 1/3 of the on highway truck engine market. Years ago I worked with one of the best 2 stroke mechanics, I was lucky in that respect. Ed worked for Emerson Diesel a Detroit dealer shop in Seattle, and for awhile Emerson shipped him north to service/repair the power houses along the Alaska pipeline. He had many funny stories. He had his way of tuning and obviously it worked well because he was never out of work or someone hounding him to tune a green engine. Ed would say {if you see a Grayhound or any other Detroit powered bus that has a clean ass, either it was just washed or the jackass who tuned didn't know his ass from a hole in the ground, it better have a gray cloud on hard throttle and right now}. I asked him if he liked Detroit's {it's a pay check only slightly better than pimping}
I'll guess the electronic controls came from Delco Electronics. That division of GM had been making electronic engine controls since the early '80's. By 1984, Delco Electronics was the world's largest computer manufacturer.
I don't think so, Daimler had their mitts involved. Series 60 began production in 1987, Not positive but Bosch was involved.
I think Daimler came a lot later. First came Roger Penske in 1988, buying a majority interest from GM. I think the first DDEC came out on the 92s before the series 60, maybe about '85.
No the first DDEC hit the market in 87, the electronic version of 92's came after. The DDEC is a proprietary system of Detroit Diesel. Work started on the engine in 83 as info I have found. The Series 60 was the first on highway electronically controlled engine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit_Diesel_Series_60
Only real experience I had with 2 stroke Detroit was a couple retired greyhound busses we had at Opryland hotel when I worked there and our shop foreman rebuilt those and story was they may have been slightly hotter than should have been as he was retired navy mechanic and those were his baby’s lol they would definitely clear 100 in a hurry
We saw the DDECII and DDECIII systems on the 190 ton Haulpak trucks that went into the Centrailia mine in about 1994 or 1995. I never worked on those monsters but did get a little bit of an introduction to the DDEC system when I went to a school for the 50 ton Haulpak trucks in 1992. The instructors had some graphics on display to show the data logging and diagnostics inherent in the systems. Would have like to learned more but the trucks I was going to work on had K series Cummins in them. I didn't see another system like DDEC until I went to work for the Cat dealer in 2005.
The DDEC system is a good system, the injector harness would give some trouble later in life but that was to be expected.
If i remember correctly, i saw one of the first series 60’s with a JD logo here and there on some castings. I was told by the salesman that jd had done some of the foundry work. Somebody correct me if i’m wrong
Your correct.
Engine blocks and heads are difficult to cast, and Deere does a good job. Deere was actively looking for outside block work in the late '80's and early '90's. Those early blocks were machined by CBS Boring in Frasier, MI. I believe the original work started in the late '70's. I later worked for the man who did most of the airflow development work on the cylinder head in '81 to '83.
Penske came into Detroit Diesel in 87. Old article. https://www.theautochannel.com/news/2000/07/20/005040.html
The double zero engine was such a turd by the time the Silver arrived the damage was done. Detroit held 30% of on highway share, by 87 3 to 5%. Good link to read below. https://www.motortrend.com/news/0709dp-detroit-diesel-engine-history/ A friend own this two story falcon a 79, he shot through 3 double OO's in the first 200,000 before Emerson Diesel Seattle replaced the third with a Silver. Which ran 400,000 before he sold the truck. He never owned another Detroit.
I bobtailed/drove one of those from the dealership to my shop to repair some transport damage, (paint) when new back in 79. That truck about scared the B'Geezus out of me the first sharp right turn out of the lot onto the state highway I was entering. Thought the damned thing was gonna roll over right there in the street. You can see in the above photo the "lean" the air ride cabs had on them and at the time I was used to Mack Camelback, or Hendrickson spring suspension, and rigid mounted cabs only.
The short time I worked at the GMC Trucks dealership I was swinging the shop crane replacing those with the "Silver" series. Most were higher in power settings too and IIRC all were aftercooled. Warranty replacements had kits supplied for some additional plumbing but I don't remember what it was for. If I wasn't changing the "92" series engines, it was the 5.7, and 6.2ltr engines in the pickups..... GM still had a lot to learn in those days it seemed.
Keep the stories coming. I can tell TS is starting to like them again. lol
All the guys that used to drive Detroits are now wearing hearing aids.
I don't have hearing aids but don't hear much these days either.....
The 4.5, and 6.8ltr. Deere engines I had in generator service were tough to keep a head gasket in until the head was planed. Seems the Brazilian foundry didn't "season" the castings correctly and they warped shortly after being placed into service. I did three of the 6.8ltr, and two of the 4.5ltr engines myself as they would get to pushing oil out at the head to block seal. No problems after the heads were planed level.
Lots of closet fanatics out there you know.....
One of the biggest problems with the deere engines(green or yellow) that we had, was when they took the asbestos out of the head gaskets. It was tough to get the head to seal properly no matter what you did. They would usually weep coolant. Numerous solutions were tried. Some worked-some didn’t
Anything painted alpine green, is a looser.
I resent that! Both these machines are sitting on my shop floor.
I’ve really enjoyed this conversation, gentlemen. A trip down memory lane. I wonder if the OP made any progress?
The Alaska Railroad Pullman Standard passenger cars that carry the tourists around during the summer, still have sideways 6-71’s to power the generators. They have tried unsuccessfully (marginal success with Deutz) to re-power them.
That's not alpine green, that's forest green-----------Has anyone considered the reason the redesigned 92 was painted SILVER. Detroit was applying the {All new Silver 92 {Is New and Improved} marketing tactic. Trying desperately to get rid of the stink from early days and recoup lost business. Detroit beat that dead alpine green horse long enough.
I doubt it.
What color are the 60 series or the DD15s?
I'll bet you're correct in that assumption. Let's drill down a bit with this: My 12V-71T is gray in color as supplied by the original vendor to the FAA where I maintained it over 25 years. Very good engine over it's time in service. Now removed from it's original 400kw generator and converted to truck usage including a D.W.L.S. governor, SAE #1 flywheel housing, and 15" flywheel/clutch setup. The 8V-71 is red and was removed from an IH grain truck when rust put that one down. Another very good engine although a bit underpowered w/N-65 injectors and std. timing. The 6-71 is blue in color and I removed this one from a 1969 Diamond Reo C-609 truck/tractor that the cab would no longer stay on it's mounts being busted up so bad. Come to think of it, this truck had "Velvet Ride" suspension too. What a "pooch" this one was with "N-55" injectors originally. The V6-71 in my large air compressor is cream color as supplied by Ingersoll-Rand back in 1982. No history on this one but it starts and performs well. The 3-53 in my backhoe loader is construction yellow and it too runs very well. A 4-53T engine I'm attempting to acquire to repower my smaller portable air compressor is black, and original to the branch chipper. Think I'll follow your lead and avoid the "Alpine Green" paint as these really are very good engines and I'd hate to do anything to compromise that claim.
Like I said before what ever powers your boat. This isn't BMT don't go down that lane again.
Series 60 has it's own color of dull gray green, DD series is gray block aluminum head.
I've never had a boat with a diesel engine. Had a couple with Mercury-Kiekhaefer outboards that ran very well and they too were two stroke engines. Kinda miss pulling bikini clad young ladies out of the lake on skis too.....
With all the other junk you have laying around, what happened no diesel powered yacht?
Never had interest in boats really. Usually purchased something damaged by others and picked up cheap, repaired the same, and moved it on for the next project. My interests are like the wind and change routinely. However, always have liked old Mack trucks, and Allis-Chalmers bulldozers is about the only consistency through life I've experienced with equipment; but we all have our individual faults.....
I had the boat experience. The Letters BOAT stand for "Bring On Another Thousand"
Gosh you fellas have been having a field day while I've been gone The truck has been away getting a brake re line on the trailer so have not done anything else to it yet but I appreciate all the ideas and will keep you posted. In response to some of the posts about the Detroit I know that they are an old outa date engine but I still love them. I grew up listening to my father's 6V53 with twin stacks roaring, all 210hp of it, that truck did so much work and often pulling a trailer, never let him down. I now run 4 TS14B scrapers all 471 Detroit's, I never get sick of operating and listening to them work, we rebuilt a rear engine last year, it had worn itself out completely, god knows how many hours that engine had done. I like to steer clear of electronic engines and transmissions if possible, the old saying 'KISS' works for us - most of the time
What was the old saying - "The only days you enjoy a boat are the one you buy it and the one you sell it" or something like that.?
With all that running Detroit's I gotta ask how's your hearing?
Pardon
Lots of salty drivers with occupational hearing loss in the left ear, including me. From driving with the window open.
Eventually, I started driving with foam ear plugs in. Even with modern trucks. Made the day go by much nicer.
Used to run equipment with the controls right on the engine on a 471t and a 671. I had to use ear plugs and was fine but a lot of people wouldn't. I just couldn't see how they could be near that thing for 8+ hours! I still see some with those old two stroke and still when they are 20-30' feet away I still want ear plugs. This application is still great for those old engines, run full rpm all day billing $150/hr and you can find replacement engines in a lot of places. Typically only need 100-150hp continuous.
When I first hired on many of the standby gensets were DDA powered. Lot's of noise at a continuous rpm setting, (1800rm) and set there an hour for their monthly maintenance run, or four hours at capacity load bank for Annual maintenance requirements. These are always in enclosures, or shelters so the noise is quite loud. Later on as parts supplies were tightening, many of these sets were replaced with a Kohler awarded contract. I. This contract, only the generators themselves were.Kohler. switchgear was Zenith,and engines were another contractual supply by Kohler. All diesels were John Deere and gaseous fueled units were either Ford, or GM vendored. The Deere diesel's are just as loud in the application(s) as the Detroit Diesels IMO.
I think the dB measurements are about the same but the Detroit noise is just more annoying to me.
To me the Detroit noise is more of a symphony, get those twin accelerators going on the TS14 its like playing the piano
Oh man, that is the main reason I kept my 12V-71T. You put 600kw resistive against that and it really "barks".
When I had the 671 in my and you were pulling heavy, it would really sound nice. Of course the English at the front of the truck and I'm at the back. Detroit's have a high pitched whine in them that is in addition to the diesel noise that every other fixed timing engine has, and that whine really gets to the ears even when you can't hear it. A lot of Detroits also don't have a turbo, and that makes a huge difference in noise as well.
I once worked on a tug boat that had a pair of 3,600 HP V-16 Nohab engines and 2 8V71's powering the 150 KW gen sets. The Nohab's were so loud that you had to either look at the control panel or place your hand above the 8V to check for heat to see which engine was on-line.
One of my life's goals is to fit a 671 to the front of one of our TS14's, I see it's quite common in America but nobody seems to do it here, I reckon it would make a huge difference and be great when pulling power with the hydraulics and a full can
Scraper? What engine you have now because it probably would be gutless otherwise.
Factory setup twin 471's
Well a 8v71 would be better, if you could find some sort of turbo'd one would be even better
I saw a TS14 once with a turbo 4-71 for the front engine
Back in the 70's I spent a lot of time keeping a fleet of TS 24's running. Good machines. 12V71 Turbo in front with an inline 6-71 turbo in the rear. They were push loaded with a D9.
I remember a fleet of TS-24s on a coal mine reinstatement job in South Wales back in the late 70s. I need to see if I can find some photos.
After a fun couple of hours looking through old photo albums I found these............ Merthyr Tydfil, South Wales, UK. Early 1976.
There was also other DD-powered equipment on site, including these Terex R50s. Sold & serviced by the (in)famous John Blackwood Hodge & Co, known to all in the muckshifting business as "Deadwood Dodge". The young lady in the 2nd photo was at the time my GF, later wife, now ex-wife.
Awesome. Green everywhere
So mechanic pulled the after cooler, I haven't seen it but apparently not that bad, so now we're this far do we pull heads? Is it ever even possible for crud to block water galleries in the heads and or block? If so is there anyway to reverse flush the system?
The after-cooler can look okay and still be partially blocked.
Enough to make it run hot under load?
One way to find out. Its out so block the coolant passages that feed it and put the engine back together and see if it helped.
I've done this in the past with a truck when the cooler burst a seam and another couldn't be acquired fast enough. Only detriment was an increase in exhaust temperature which was easily compensated for by an easier application of throttle, and a slight alteration of the driving style. No long term effects when the replacement cooler arrived and was installed. That's been over 20 years ago and the truck was still around till last fall when sold off. Not many grain haulers around here running straight trucks any longer.
Do you hook the lines that feed the cooler together then?
So with that being said why would I ditch the cooler if it can be cleaned and is otherwise in good condition? There is no room for adjusting driving style here, we're regularly pulling up hill and its full noise otherwise you won't make it
I didn't mean to "ditch" the cooler at all. In the reference cited it was grain hauling season and the cooler was bypassed to keep the truck working. The cooler was replaced about a month later with a new DDA unit.
Oh yip I see cheers
The cooler is fed through the cylinder block. You install a plug in the block and plug the discharge line from the cooler outlet at the engine. I used a piece of pipe and a cap clamped into the rubber hose lines for this. Basically you are converting to a non aftercooled cylinder block. This photo kinda shows what is done to bypass the cooler:
Ok, I'm not getting the part on how blocking the flow is better then a partially blocked cooler would make the engine run cooler? Is the return coolant from the aftercooler extra hot on a partially blocked cooler than as it stays too long in the cooler?
The cooler fins get blocked and restrict the air flow from the turbo and blower into the air box. Its not from coolant flow through the aftercooler.
Ok so you are temporarily deleting the after cooler?
Na it's going back in. Its in good nick, wasn't even dirty At a crossroads of weather to carry on and pull heads or not as we're this far, mechanic is reluctant to fo that, he just can't see it being the heads in his opinion, so next thing to do if it goes back together is to set the top tune and then reverse flush the block/heads cooling system as per Detroit manual.
You might pull your water pump off and ensure the impeller is firmly attached to the driving shaft while it's apart and down. Referencing the photo below I have seen the nut retaining the impeller to the driving shaft come loose allowing the impeller to chew up the deflector causing cavitation of the coolant and subsequent overheating of the engine. This was on an engine generator set and it would only overheat when carrying facility load, or was being load banked. The impellers are a heavy bronze casting and if they become loose they destroy themselves, the shaft, and anything else it comes into contact with.
Ok thanks will do. Water pump has to come off for flush. However we have done the water pump recently, it was perfect
Unless you are experiencing combustion gas pressurizing the cooling system, or water in the basement, I wouldn’t remove the heads, either. Probably create new problems by doing so.
I'm getting confused
Don’t be. Troubleshoot the heating problem, first. The cylinder heads are not causing the overheating. You could install new reman heads, and be disappointed when the engine still overheats.
With it hot, take a top tank and a bottom tank temperature and share your results. Are you trusting the dash gauge? How do you know it’s accurate?
Ok. So it has two gauges, one on each head, one electronic and the other capillary, both read within khooey of one another. I have tried the heat gun on the radiator and engine ages ago, I found it jumped around a lot with the different metals and painted or not, wasn't good for much imop
Two ways to check for cracked heads, test for gases with a bottle test or attach a hose to the highest point with a gauge run into cab so it can be watched under load conditions.
I'm still not convinced this is an engine problem.
There should be a place to drain the coolant at the rear of the engine block on both sides? If you could plumb a pressure gauge in and measure the coolant pressure in the block it will tell you the pump is working and the oil cooler is not blocking the coolant flow. I would expect to see close to 40 PSI above rad cap pressure at 2000 RPM.
I use a coolant system pressure test cap. If you have combustion gas in the cooling system, you can watch the pressure climb as soon as you start the engine.
Page 8 is full of great advice. Yes Huffa, those infrared thermometers can be frustrating. Use flat black paint on shiny surfaces for more accurate readings. The good news, in this case, we are not looking for super-duper accuracy. We just want a difference in temp. We call it a delta T, in the cooling system biz.
Yip great advice, I appreciate everyone's input. After its back together and its reverse flushed if it's still being naughty I will re vist the heat gun and look to measure that pressure in some way as discussed
Reason for testing under load-It's easy to test with a radiator pressure tester when there is a catastrophic failure causing gases in cooling system. The reason for running a long hose and gauge into the cab is you want to test under load conditions with as much boost as possible. There are instances where the problem shows right away under load. I have personally have had Cat, Cummins and Detroit not fail a bottle test {should turn bright green from cobalt blue} only to slightly turn a very dark greenish blue or just stay blue. I use two gauges and two separate hoses, put a full load load 100k on it and run it down the highway and work it hard every chance. Six years ago-had a Series 60 that I suspected dropped a liner, wasn't pushing coolant but temp gauge would dance. It failed a bottle test, I put the gauges on it-hit 18 psi, was under warranty so to the dealer it went. They called back two days in saying all was fine. Gayle and I drove to Hermiston to pick it up, only to find out they said they found nothing wrong engine was ok. I took the gauges with me because they were trying to slide. I hooked them up ran it down I-84 with no trailer and service manager riding along nothing happened till turned around 10 miles west and came back on a slight grade. It gradually climbed to 20 psi. In the shop it went.
So put the clean cooler back in, made no difference, still heating, the truck seems to be down on power a bit too which has slowly getting worse, I've gone all over the air intake making sure everything is clear and turbo is spinning. I put a fuel pressure gauge in line just out of the filter in the pressure line going to the head. I was hoping I might see low pressure to explain a bit of power loss however I got 130psi at full revs going down the road. From what I have read 40-75 psi is normal. Does to higher fuel pressure suggest a problem of some kind or is it just fine?
Just a wild haired idea, Pull the air box covers along the sides of the block, bar the engine over and inspect the piston skirts. Low power, Higher heat, fuel and air pressure nominal, I am suspecting Scored one or more.
Fuel pressure range is regulated by the fuel restriction fitting on the return side of the cylinder head. There should be a stamped number on the end of the fitting..............remove it and see if th orfice is plugged and creating more fuel pressure than should be there.
The orifice allows more fuel flow through the heads to keep the fuel temperature down if its plugged it will cause a bit of a power loss.
The restricted fitting is a must. If it has been replaced with a regular fitting, find the correct restricted one and get it back into the fuel system. One time years ago when I was a field mechanic in remote Alaska I ran across this issue. Solution: I soldered the fitting closed then drilled it out to the correct diameter. (.071 I believe)
Series 60 uses the restrictor also BTW.
Thanks, so the consensus is that pressure is definitely too high and I need to sort it
The part of this issue that causes a puzzle-this has happened slowly over time.
Hi, could you reply how you up-shift your 14b's with a full bowl. Trying to make trany last as long as possible. Thx. Terry
What's a full bowl?
How about a rated load. say 14 yds
Once bowl is full and up, shifting from first to second I generally just ease the throttles a bit and shift through to 2nd, its a smooth change, 2nd to 3rd I lift foot off throttles completely and make the change, its a harder change, I dont go past 3rd gear very often unless on road or an extremely flat job
Thx. Huffa, How do you go through the downshift. Terry