Hello, i am new here and i am glad i found this awesome place. i just purchased a 94 case 1845C with only 1540 hours. it sat most of its life and is in really good shape. I used it about 3 hours when i noticed a faint stream of oil on the ground as i was backing up where i was working. turns out the right hand top hose going to the drive motor had been rubbing against a bolt on the opposite side and wore a hold in the line. I parked the machine and went and got a new hose made up and the local NAPA store. put that on and fired it up. Here's where the problem starts. I didn't have harldy any power at all on the right side. It would move but really slow. I replaced the filter and checked the fluid level, added about 2.5 gallons to bring it up to full. Still dont have much power going to the right side. I tried cracking the lines and bleeding them, and some of the plugs on the tandem pump that control that side. Nothing has helped it yet. I even switched all 4 hoses at the drive pumps to the opposite sides and the problem switched sides, meaning the drive motors are good. I am lost here. I was hoping to have a great machine here. Before i noticed the leak i had tons of power and now hardly any on the right side. Also if i push the right lever all the way forward, and then try to operate the left side it makes the left side loose power, but as soon as i let off the right side lever the power comes back instantly to the left side as normal. Also when putting it under a load backing up using the right lever sometimes there is a really loud whining sound. also the motor doesn't pull down hardly and using the right side. Any suggestions? help? simple fixes/things to check. i am lost here.......... thanks
I hope that you were very clean when you changed that hose. Hydrostats will tolerate NO dirt as the commutator plates in the drive pumps are brass and score very easily. If ANY abrasive was allowed to enter the hose as you fed it into position you will be doing a rebuild on the piston pump. Sadly it sounds as if that may be the case as you said it worked before you changed the hose. The plate and the piston barrel mating face and slippers on the pistons shoud all be checked for scoring . The systems are self bleeding so that is not an issue. A good mechanic and a precision flat surface that cannot flex with 400 grit wet or dry with some oil as a lube and some patience can get them working again. I have done it many times. mel
Where is that piston pump your talking about located and is this sumthing that can be done without tearing the whole thing apart? I have rebuild many automotive engines and restored a couple cars, doing all the work myself, but i am lost at how these machines operate. Any info on this would be great and is this an easy fix? how bout cost? i have plenty of tools and even more time if this is something you can point me in the direction of and a little how-to would be great. thanks again
T he tandem pumps are bolted directly to the plate on the bell housing and have all the drive hoses fastened to it. The cab should be rolled ahead to gain access, you really need a service manual to even start this project. The tandem pump has two drive sections, one right, one left. following the hoses will tell you which section serves the right and which the left. rereading the first post, are you sure the hose from NAPA meets the pressure ratings of the 45C's drive pressures, many auto parts stores do not have the hose specs required. Not to question your abilities as a mechanic but hydrostatic pumps are simple in theory but somewhat complicated to get back together, getting the swash plate in right can be a bit tedious due to the design. You may consider having a pro do it or just learn your way through it. Mel
If the problem follows that new hose from side to side, I would suspect that hose or fitting is restricting something. I know nothing of this machine but that only makes sense to me....didn't have the problem before the new hose, problem follows the hose from one side to the other......must be the hose, no?
Thanks again for the response. Yeah the hose is rated at 4000psi so that should be good. The problem is in the front part of the tandem pump, the side closest to the motor. I have a thick parts manual with the breakdown of all the parts that go into this thing. I was just curious as to weather i would need any speacial specific tools to tear this thing apart and reasemble. I guess worse case scenario i could pull the tandem pump myself and save the price of labor there and just let a professional rebuild it.
I would be checking a few pressures before ripping it apart - charge pressure at least.
I have a couple pressure guages, on goes to 600 and the other to 5000. Anybody got any pictures or diagrams where i can tap in to to check some pressures?
Have a new hose made at a hydraulic shop. If the problem followed the hose it must be the hose. Something is wrong with the new hose!
Taje the original hose with the hole to the Hydraulic shop so they can match it.
I hear this same story over and over after guys have hydrostat hoses made and usually what has happened is when they cut the hose to length they do not blow out the debris and then when the hose is installed the debris goes right into the pump and damages the port plate and the rotating group. I usually pull the pump group apart and end up resealing it, replacing the port plates and lapping the rotating group if it is not damage very bad. Then the motors need to be resealed at least and cleaned good if no damage is found and all of the hoses flushed out. The hose builders do not relize the damage the debris can do in a closed loop hydro system. The good hose shops will at least blow out the hose good before and after crimping on the fittings. The real good shops will blow a few cleaning spuds through the hose to get it good and clean.
It would not hurt to check the charge pressure but from the original post the fact that the good side drive is affected when the other side is actuated tells me that the charge presure is being dumped through the damaged side when actuated. That the system worked before the hose was changed is very significant. I redid the same machine twice in a row within several days from a dirty drive hose installation while the Federal Prison near Lewisburg Penna. was being built. They didn't learn anyting the first time!!!!!!!!. They put lower pressure rating hose from NAPA than the system called for and blew it and then repeated a dirty hose installation a second time. If there is any dirt in the belly the hoses MUST be plugged with secure JIC pulgs and once in position the plugs cleaned with brake and parts cleaner, the male fittings cleaned absolutely clean and only after there is absolutely no kind of abrasives in the system can the hoses be attached and tightened. In fact the hoses must be cleansed internally as most hose shops cut the hose with an abrasive wheel and pieces of the hose reinforcing wires and carborundum bits off the cutoff wheel can be inside the hose from the hose making. process. Keep us posted as to what your pressure readings show. Mel
Sorry bout your bad luck. Its quite possible as already mentioned you introduce contamination into the system with the hose change-not only from the grit and grime on the machine but also from the hose itself if a foam pig was not used to clean the hose before installation. My money would be on contamination fouling a set of check valves in your right piston pump or the high pressure reliefs for the right side if they are located in the right side pump(most will be located with the motors though). Just my $.02-don't believe it has run long enough for "3 body abrasion" to wipe out a piston pump and not affect the motor on that side. If you could post a schematic I could maybe be of more help. Good luck, Maytag
Thanks Goose, I was typing my response as you posted yours, you are so correct and add that to the dirt that can be introduced while fishing unplugged hose through the lower parts of the pan and you have a recipe for disaster. The damage that occours will be almost instantaneous as the contaminant is trapped in the closed loop and just keeps circulating and the results will be an immediate loss of power, the right way to repair it would be to have all components in that loop disassembled and cleaned including all hoses. I also have lapped the pieces back to usable condition including the port or commutator plate, you get a bit of minor rounding at the very edge but nothing where the actual sealing takes place. I have restored many to like new performance with a thick flat glass, 400 grit wet or dry and some elbow grease with a consistant figure eight motion while sanding it with a light lubricant or a parts cleaner to carry away the removed material from the piston shoes, commutator plate and piston barrel mating surfaces.
This may help to confirm your problem.....
So here is where i stand at this point. I was off work today so i ended up pulling the tandem pump. took it to a local reputable shop that deals with case stuff. the guy is going to pull it apart and see whats the deal and we can go from there. i was unable to check pressure reading cause i didn't have the right fittings. do you really think the drive motors need to be pulled apart and cleaned? i pulled the belly pan and all the drive motor hoses. everything is getting a good cleaning for sure! i did plug off the fittings on the drive motors so nothing can get into them. I should hear something by friday on the pump...... lets hope for the best:Banghead
As goose stated and myself also, that is the only way to ensure that your system is completely free of contaminants. ONE-(1)- particle of sand can undo all the rebuild that you are underway with. I cannot stress hard enough that once something is inside the closed loop system the only way out is to remove it or wait till it creates a big enough path to get out on its own (severe damage). The only thing worse than doing these jobs is doing them over. Mel
I think a lot of people don't know that the only filtered oil the hydrostatic system gets after the initial charge is makeup oil thru the charge system to compensate for case loss in the motors. So if dirt enters the system it will never go through the filter and will recirculate.
Is there anyway i could put a filter on each drive side? does anybody make a filter that would work in both directions. you would thing as big and tough as these machines are that they would built the pump system alot better so that it could take a little abuse. Its kinda like building a monsterous bridge and then making its main support beam a toothpick.
I don't know if there is a filter that would work under that high a pressure and amount of flow. Really if it is all assembled clean and the initial fill is with filtered oil from charge pump all new oil entering the system is filtered so it should be good for a long time.
What kind of abuse do you think that machine should stand?????? I have seen external abuse cause broken chassis in the axle housing areas, I have seen bent cylinder rods, belt loader frames, just about any damage that abuse can cause. Let's see what actually caused your problem and then assess the situation, could be something entirely unrelated to dirt that coincidentally happened. Hydrostatic systems are some of the toughest drives on the planet and are being used in very large crawlers of very high horsepower. Most brands of equipment use systems built by one or two major manufacturers and their designs are so similar as to be indestinguishable. Your machine ran years till the hose failure. What you are looking at as a toothpick is a really well designed and implemented technology that has proven itself in millions of units with systems just like yours. I am not going to pass judgment till we find out if abrasives actually destroyed your pump, but if so that would be akin to dumping sand into a transmission or into an engine that did not have a filter and complaining about the poor design when certain failure occoured. The system is fine as designed and adding filters would be fruitless, as I previously stated if that abrasive material moves through those finely machined precision areas one time, the damage is done instantaneously.
bi-directional filter There are filter assemblies available for this application(6000psi/100gpm)don't know whether you have room. Maytag
I understang the situation. i was just saying that off all the metals in the world, diffrent alloys and such, why pick brass parts to be the heart of the machine. Brass is soft and scares easily i know. why not build the pump out of hardened steel or iron. some type of chrome moly of something. You can get by with alot of small debris in engines. the oil pump can take alot because its made of hardened steel or iron. its still precision made but they can take some abuse before it totally fails. I know its a good system when working but you would atleast think the fluid would be filtered contionously. just my thoughts..... you guys have alot of knowledge here and are really helpful. im looking forward to what actually caused this thing to mess up
All parts are supposed to be riding on a film of oil-as far as something other than brass-check out "Oilgear" brand pumps and motors-they are built out of steel components. Maytag
If I seem to be getting a bit out of sorts on these recent posts I'm sorry. We are a Case dealer and I have worked for the same dealer in service since 1962 when I graduated high school. I was there before Case used Hydrostats and grew up with them, The latest Case crawlers use the system in high HP extreme duty applications. I am quite sure that if there was a more satisfactory tougher way to do it reliably the pump manufacturer would do it You seem to be demeaning what I and others who are advising you KNOW to be a very fine system. Those units with the brass comutator plates will generally run many thousand hours with no significant wear under normal conditions. In a hydrostat pump you have a block and piston assembly that turns with the end running against the brass comutator plate that directs the f/r oil flow through slots in the comutator plate depending on which way the swash plate is tipped. There is a slight spring load to seat the b and p against the brass plate. the brass plate serves as a bearing, putting two ferrous materials together at that position could cause some serious challenges as to keeping similar metals from galling. As peviously stated, there is absolutely nothing wrong with this setup and if our advice is followed after repairs are made you will have many years of satisfactory service. Please do not cut corners, I hate to be redundant but every foreign particle must be removed from the system. Mel
I know these systems are reliable. im not questioning that. however with every moving part in the pumps and drive motors there is always going to be some type of wear and that means particles. why not have this system contiously filtered? If they would build it like that the lifespan, even though great now could be a whole lot better. But yes i am going overboard with the cleaning. everything is getting drained and flushed and all new fluids and filter. this is the last time i want to go threw this
hi cldunivan, I'm in agreement with melben that these are very well designed and reliable hydraulic systems. You ask the question as to why the systems are not continuously filtered, when in fact they are. There is a filter in the closed loop system. What is not filtered continuously is the oil going from the bi-directional drive pumps to the drive motors, for a number of reasons. It would be expensive to do that making the benefits not outweigh the installation and service costs, it would be difficult to do as the oil moves both directions through the hoses going to drive motors, filtering output oil from a pump always increases the risk to the pump from a clogged filter (for whatever reason it gets clogged), and that it's really not necessary as there is a low pressure return filter in the oil cooling circuit. You have to have a basic understanding of how the closed loop system works. Oil from the reservoir feeds work equipment pump and the charge pump for the drive pumps. To keep this simple, we'll leave the work equipment circuit out of this discussion for the moment and focus on the drive circuit. The charge pump pressurizes the internal housing of the drive pumps. If your not driving the machine, swash plates are in the null position, no oil is being delivered to the drive motors. Oil being delivered from the charge pump leaves the case drain of the drive pumps and enters the cooling circuit to be cooled and filtered, then returns back to the line coming from the reservoir to feed the charge pump once again. Hence, filtered oil. When you began moving the machine, oil in the housing from the charge pump is delivered to the drive motors via the drive pumps. The charge pump delivers more oil than is needed by the drive pumps so there is always some flow out of drive pump case drain. This prevents cavitation of the pumps. And it also benifits the filtering of the oil from the drive circuit. When you deliver oil from the pumps to the drive motors, after it's done its work in the motors, the oil returns to the drive pump to be mixed with the filtered oil from the charge pump. Yes, some of that oil will enter back into the drive circuit, but some will exit the case drain to be filtered. The point is, the oil in the drive circuit is not isolated from the rest of the machine systems, including cooling and filtering. It's always being mixed with cooled and filtered oil. So you can see there is really no need for expensive and cumbersome filtering systems for the drive system as the oil that operates the entire machines system is being filtered continuously in the cooling circuit. LoL, alrman will probably now rib me for writing another novel.
green hydro You have been given some very good info-in addition the hydrostatic drive is by far the most energy efficient hydraulic system. Regarding the filtration, bi-directional filtration is done everyday in heavy industry and regardless what some one tells you a filter is certainly cheaper than a pump or motor-not to mention downtime. Also never seen a filter cause risk or harm to a pump unless it is on the suction side and you put a light check valve in parallel with the strainer(filter) to avoid the risk of cavitation. Pressure filters(at least the ones I use)all have a bypass(light check valve)in parallel with the elements also. Good luck, Maytag
Atco has done a great job of explaining the Hydrostat system. In addition the main hydraulic oil returns to sump through a fine micron filter so the total system capacity is being filtered more than two times a minute assuming a 15 GPM pump. There is little to no wear in a rotating group that is properly maintained. If one is concerned about the miniscule amount of material that is shed from the rotating group under normal operation they need only to disassemble a unit that has worked flawlessly for years to see their fears unfounded. In fact, I would venture to say that the "wearing in" process as the B&P assembly takes a fit to the commutator plate actually improves the effeciency of the tandem pumps. The confined spaces required to build a compact skid steer do not allow the space for a filtering system and as Atco so aptly pointed out, if any debris were collected as in a normal filter element going forward, it would be washed back out when you reversed the oil flow unless a complicated system was incorporated increasing the complexity of the closed loop system. If the system is properly maintained and no catastropic failure occours there is no significant wear over the lifetime of the units. The brass commutator plates being condemmed will not have enough wear that you can feel or measure after years of faithful service and can be and usually are put right back into service. You need to actually understand how the system works to make assumptions as to what will improve its life. Unless a failure occours for some reason there is nothing for a filter to catch, this is proven by inspecting units that have many thousands of hours use on them and if a internal failure does happen an inline filter will not help anyway, you'll be tearing it down. To those of us who know and love these machines which are some of the toughest and well built in the industry it is amazing to see this much discussion about an issue that is a nonissue. Some of us actually have hands on and have been eyewitnesses to the extremely long life of a properly maintained unit and the total destruction of one that has been destroyed by an unfortunate failure of a component within the closed loop system or contamination introduced into the system from an outside source.
Hi maytag, I didn't say high pressure downstream filtration couldn't be done, I was only making the point that it isn't really necessary on these machines for various reasons.
filtration Atco, Interesting discussion-funny how people from different backgrounds approach a problem/overcome obstacles. I started out in the mobile world but moved into heavy industry after a few years. We focus on machine reliability and overall equipment efficiency as more tons of quality steel out the door means more money for both company and workers alike. Monthly oil samples are taken and sent to a lab where cleanliness and chemistry are verified-we try to maintain an ISO 13/10 cleanliness level for our hydraulic systems-this requires a lot of filtration and good housekeeping. All pumps have pressure filters, all systems have both return filters and a kidney or polishing loop. I'll be the first to admit its a lot easier to do these things in an industrial setting rather than a piece of mobile equipment. Have a nice weekend, Maytag
Yes, maytag, the differences between mobile hydraulics and industrial is night and day. You could have an industrial process unit that cost $20,000 or half a million dollars. It would be a machine that once it's installed and operating, if it were to go down because of poor maintenance or poor design, it could affect from one worker to a dozen workers on the process line, not to mention the loss of production for that unit. If a skid loader goes down, the job boss would simply move the workers to do something else until the unit is repaired, or, bring in a rental unit. Kinda hard to bring in a rental 500 ton press to a production plant. Also is the differences in purchasing the machines. Let's say you need a certain press, you find one built to suit your needs, oh no...it cost $150,000! No, we'll just go down the street to "press r us" and get one cheaper. LoL...no, it doesn't work that way. Industrial equipment is an investment that it's necessary to maintain properly for maximum output and production. In the skidsteer world, a manufacturer could build the most top of the line machine with all the cutting edge technology and components that would make the machine last near forever...but they would never be able to sell it. The increased selling cost for all the goodies would not make it price competitive with other brands. That's not to say less than perfect machines are the objective, its just purchase price for the consumer does play a big role in how mobile machines are built. Fortunately, the brands do want their machines to be reliable, no manufacturer wants there brand name to be a cheap piece of junk, so pretty much all the brands use qaulity components and designs that are sufficient to give years of reliable service at a minimal cost with proper service and manitanence.
Wow. Its amazing how much discussion this has stirred up. Looks like you people know a ton on this stuff. I have already learned alot from you all. thanks. as far as my problem goes, i am still waiting to hear back from the shop. i may give them a call on monday, just to see whats up. I have cleaned up the whole machine, got it all power washed and dirt/oil free. it was messy and alot of work but should pay off. next on the list is to drain all the fluids and service the whole machine while its tore down and clean. I took the other drive hoses off to clean them up and inspect and the other 3 old one's have a couple spots where the metal has already been cut through a couple layers so im ordering new hoses for them, another 300 bucks but atleast i know they will be good and everything up to par. I will keep you all posted on what i find out with the pump. :usa
the pump did your machine ever bog down when moving or pushing a load?
Cl I'm feel for you, wow that really sucks, but this has me thinking...and rather scared. I've owned my skidsteer for all of 4 days now and what about plugging in attachments? Good Grief, all the attachments which came with this thing have fittings covered in grease and dirt, and when I tried out the grapple bucket, I wiped the male clean but what about the female on the skid steer itself? I havent really played with the machine yet, could I have already introduced contanimates?
no the machine never bogged down much unless digging straight into a mountain of dirt. then is was just a little. Where i stand now is that the Case dealer i took the pump to said they couldn't find enough damage to cause the problem i was having. well im no idiot and i know its in the pump. I picked it up in pieces and have the pump back home now. i plan on polishing the brass plate and parts all back smooth and flat and reasseble it myself and see what happens............ wish me luck
Mustang, Yes dirty quick disconnects is an avenue for contamination into the system, another is adding unfiltered oil (most new oil is not clean enough). If your hydraulic tank is vented to atmosphere make sure you keep the breather clean-there are options for a breather and moisture removal both. Maytag
Its all good info, thanks.
CL, Read your first post. I have 1 question, hopefully you will humor me by checking. The new hose that you replaced--does it have the same inside diameter as the original? If so do the hose fittings also have the same diameter? Sounds like one or the other is smaller in diameter creating a restrictive spot. This could be the reason the problem followed you to the other side. It could also explain the slow response. (If you have flow across an orifice you will have a pressure drop) I could be way off. Hope to hear back from you. Good Luck!
Anyone use a rechargeable aerosol to clean hydraulic connections whilst out in the field changing implements,Is this a good idea,and do these things work (I found the eastwood billet whilst surfing the net):Banghead
help with similar situation. Great info guys, but I have 1 question to add. I have rig at my shop with same problem. After tractor kept blowing left side hoses, (someone else changing) now rig at my shop with 400psi max press on left side both directions, right side ok, (sounds like debris right).Took pump apart only to find slight scoring on brass plate and bottom of barrel. I laped in brass smooth, didnt touch barrel. Put back together & still 400psi max. I did swap out reliefs prior to disassembly. Question - will .015 scoring on bottom of barrel cause this because I have it back apart now & can smooth out but don`t want to put back in again only to learn that my back hurts more and its going to hurt even more when I take it out again? Thanks
If what you are talking about is a hydrostatic system then I'm assuming the 400 PSI max is the hydro pressure on the left side, in forward and reverse, full swash plate angle both ways? A couple questions: How did you determine this was a pump issue and not a motor problem? Do you know what motor case drain flow/pressure was on LH Side? Also as I understand it the load applied will determine what this pressure will go to. Do the wheels drive on the LH Side? Did you have a load on the LH side? Did you try to change hoses from side to side to see if the problem followed? If LH Hoses kept failing it sounds to me like the pressure was there (guessing), otherwise why would they fail? If I had to guess I would certainly have a close look at that LH motor. As far as .015? I'm no expert on hydro pumps but 15 thou scoring on a hydro pump barrel sounds like alot to me. APPROX OPERATING SPECS (Don't know your exact manufacturer): Max operating pressure- can be as high as possibly 3000 PSI Charge pump relief setting can be anywhere from 70-150 PSI Case pressure can be as high as 15 PSI Max Just trying to get a clearer picture of the problem.
1845c I did switch motors and problem stayed with forward pump (Didn`t follow motor).Dont know return press or what it should be on motor. Left side of tractor had very little or no power. If you stroke lever quickly tractor will momentarily jump then nothing, and pump pressure will shows at 400psi. Thanks
Have you tried just switching hoses to the other side instead of switching motors? See if front pump will drive RH Side?
No i have not, but failure mode of hose could only be pluged, restriction or leak right (they are same size). If one is pluged, wouldn`t I get some movement and/or pressure due to charge press loading intake if cavated ? I have no leak and if restricted I would think I would get some movement also. I will check this tonight though. last night I spent 2 hours facing bottom of barrel and brass plate so tonight I was going to assemble and install pumps and check motor and hoses for cleanlyness. What ever happened to guy that started this thread I would be interested to see how his turned out? Sounds like same issue. Still wondering if these little scores I polished out could cause pump not to produce? I think some of these guys that were on this thread could answer this question. They seem very smart on this subject. Thanks
I totally agree that the knowledge at this site is exceptional. The reason I asked about switching hoses to the other side is: If you do this and the RH Side drives it could be possible that you have a mechanical failure in the LH Side power train (chain-bearing-hub problem on LH side?). If the front pump drives the RH side it will be something for you to consider. You said that the machine "Jumps". Is this an indication of a bearing piled up? Just some thoughts.
A conventual hydrostat transmission will have over-pressure protection (cross-port relief valves) which should open before a hose failure/stalling the diesel engine etc-BUT like some other things that work on paper but don't work in the real world, there are cases where the pressure spike is so quick catostophic failure can happen before the relief valve will open-i suspect this is the case here unless someone has taken it on themself to shim/replace relief valves with a higher pressure rating than the hose-or maybe the hose has been replaced with a substandard hose. Regarding the 400 psi reading on the gage-sounds like both make-up/check valves are stuck open-that's the only thing that comes to mind without a schematic and trouble-shooting from a distance. I also am interested in what our friend, Mr. Dunivan found out as the pump shop did not find any fault with the pump. Maytag
bypass valve Not sure what pump you are using, some have a "bypass valve so you can tow a disabled machine" incorporated into the pump, quite possible this may be opened and would probably give you the 400 psi reading in both directions. Maytag
I have swaped out both reliefs with "working" right side, and the bypass screw you montioned is closed. You dont think the scoring on the brass plate and barrel could cause this much pressure drop? Keep in mind all this happened after someone changed left side hoses. Left side wont pull either way.
Sounds like you have done a good job troubleshooting by process of elimination. Nothing else comes to mind but the make-up/checks both being held open. You could take the assembled pump to a shop for an efficiency test and let them hook it up. good luck, Maytag
dragracer, just a thought, there are 3 chains in each chaincase. Intermediate from motor to cluster & 2 from cluster to wheels. Could a cog be stripped on the intermediate, or a weld let go on a sprocket - causing machine to 'jump' & then be slipping - that would only show a low pressure reading (400) while operating with no real load on it.?? the servo orifice may be worth a look - never fixed a machine by doing this - but it is always worth a try. see the doc. on post #15
No, its not loading this side at all. I can tell by how it feels. And to other idea, I did put guage on servo and it acts identical to working right side.. Does anyone know what will happen if I just cap both lines and stroke lever? I found 2 caps at work today. Won`t this eliminate all this other motor, chain & hose garbage ? Still havent got pump reinstalled yet, son had football game last night. Thanks again.
I can only advise against this-I have a 6000 psi 100gpm flow meter with a loading valve I'd sure like to sell you that would make this test safe but I'm no longer in the MO area. Some of the older hydrostat transmissions had the over-pressure protection incorporated into the motor assembly-that's why I recommend not proceeding unless you know for sure about your relief valves, etc. If you looped the hoses together and put a high pressure needle valve in this loop with a 10,000 psi gage you could crank down/restrict flow and read a pressure increase but you still could not determine flow without a flowmeter and I don't recommend doing this but it is an option. You can pm me here or [email protected] if you need. Maytag
Sorry guys, its been a long week. heres the update. I spent the good part of last weekend polishing out scoring and scratched on the parts. nothing major but its done and has to be an improvement. reassembled everything, that was actually easy and went well. Tonight i got all my new hoses on, yes i replaced all 4 drive lines. The pump is in and everything is hooked up. put in about 10 gallons of oil and going to let is soak in all night and all day 2maro and 2maro evening should be the test time. lets hope for the best. Keep us posted to on your situation dragracer. seems similar to mine in ways. hope you get it resolved. also id like to know where to hook up test guages. Pictures would be great. i have a 600psi and 5000 psi guages just have no clue where to put them.. thanks again everybody
2 - Questions ; Put pump together tonight, pulled out hoses, checked chains and planets, and pulled motor apart. Found hoses to be overcrimped causing dia to go from 3/4" inside fitting down to 5/8 at crimp, so Im going to get new hoses (explains why blowing hoses initally but not no power problem ) 1st question - is 3000lb hose adequate (thats what I have for free in shop)? Question 2 - when I disassembled motor looked perfect so I still havent really found problem except I did notice when I bolted together it compressed spring about 5/8".(felt good). But on pump im only compressing spring about 1/4" (mabye not enough compresson to hold pistons down on plate?) This could explain low press/no drive? Pins, underside of ring & down in barrel looked perfect though. Any idea if this is normal compression for pump? help help
cldunivan, if you go to alrman link on bottom of first page of this thread, there is a good pic. Look at bottom pic on left, it shows charge port and correct pressure reading. The high pressure ports are the 4 around the charge port, 2 allen for right side, and two 3/4 hex for left pump. There all on top. You did take your relief valves on the side out and make sure thier shut didn`t you?
Dragracer, what spring being compresses are you talking about? When i assembled my pump it all just went right together and i didn't have to compress any spring and also i didn't see and loose spring from the tear down other than the ones from the releif valves. None on the pump part with the pistons in it? I am lost at what your talking about here.
The hydrostat systems I'm familiar with run higher pressure than that. 4000-6000 psi. In the old days, before rear-wheel assist systems were available for cotton pickers and combines it was common to increase relief valve setting in the 6500-7000 psi range. Not a good practice but common if you had a wet fall. Maytag
When you bolt the housing end/bearing housing (last part) on with the 6 - 12 point bolts you are compressing the 3 pins that you loaded into the I.D. of the barrel assembly down against the heavy spring inside barrel. From what I understand this holds barrel against brass plate. Anyone know easiest way to drain HYD. tank, as my plugs in bottom are all messes up ( can`t get ahold of them with nothing).
Drag racer, i would suggest on that plug just to weld you a good sturdy nut on it the you should be able to get it out. may have to heat it a little with a propane torch to help free it. just dont go crazy. As for the loading the spring deal. when i assembled the last part in. i just slid it in and it wiggled down right in place. i didn't have any space at all. the pins were in and the parts lined up. any idea as to what could be the issue with me now having to compress it? could this be my problem. Update as of tonight: Fired it up and the problem is still the same. Nothing new, nothing old. exact problem as described in my first post. Im going nuts here. :Banghead
Hey CL, I have been waiting to hear how you made out and also hoping for good news. I have been in the trade for 30 years (heavy equipment) and I will be the first to tell you that I know nothing. ( the older I get the more I don't know) I know one thing. I have learned it the hard way. "KISS" (keep it simple stupid) Re-read your first post. Could you possibly just have a system full of air? (air versus fluid is compressible) Systems will not operate on air. Did you introduce the air from the first hose replacement? I would think it should purge itself but maybe worth a look? Is it possible for you to bleed the hydro system of air? I know.......so simple it sounds stupid.......
Sorry to hear that CL, What did your guages read ? Charge read 175psi on my good side and high pressure was over 2000 when I slightly stroked lever. For charge I taped right into the servo cover and the pressure went to 0 when I stroked one way and 175 when I went the other way, I think this tells you the swash plate should be moving. Need to make sure thats happening first. Trying to fire mine up tinight also but not there yet.
Well my machine will move around and stuff. just the one side is about half the speed of the other and is lacking the power to spin the wheels when under load. It just doesn't do anything if put under load like digging. The opposite side is fast and will bury itself real quick it you let it. Im checking pressure today. I will post my readings. Thanks
Sounds like you improved system so you did have leakage in area you worked on, I wonder if you got bottom of barrel and plate good enough? I know I didnt do barrel first time only stoneing brass. Barrel didnt look that bad, and when I took back apart second time:Banghead I did the barrel on a piece of glass with 400, which only had slight abrasion and now it works. I never imagined that little bit could make pump only produce 400psi? What about your motor, I wonder if same debris could have scored it? Somehow you need to determine which is problem now. Im sure you dont have flow meter like myself or even know what flow should be out of motor drain line, so either swap motors, switch lines at pump again or just pop motor out and check it. It is very simple inside. Mabye someone out there knows an easy way to test motor leakage. Id love to know. About those pins, I talked to guy at hydro shop and he said some pumps load 1" on spring and some very little. I would say if pins were all identical length and looked good thier probably ok. One of my pins had worn into ring about 1/8" though, so I just rotated ring to good spot. Dont feel bad you`ve only had your out once sofar. As I said above mine does work now "thank god" so i am now, and still an expert on nothing, except how to lose a drag race. Good luck. Let me know what you find out.
Drag racer, I appreciate the info. Where can i find the correct fitting to check pressure? I have been all over town to every little store and place that has any type of fittings and cannot find the size to adapt my guage to the threads in the pump. Do you know the specs on the threads and what size it is called? also, what are your readings on each port and what motions are you doing to get these readings? I would like to have some info to compare mine to when i find the fitting to hook up a guage. Also is yours back fully functional to like new specs? I can move mine all around just the right side(front pump) is no where near as fast as the other side. i know its not in the drive motors. anything i can check or do here to try???? anything im missing??? I am at a total loss here and going crazy
Hi cldunivan, the test ports should be SAE straight threads. SAE straight threads are the same size as USS coarse thread bolts, like 3/8-16. Simply remove your test port plug (and temporarily plug hole with something), and check diameter and thread pitch of plug. Let's say it is 3/8 diameter with 16 threads per inch. Then you go to a hyd shop and obtain and adapter fitting that is a SAE 3/8" o-ring boss fitting on one end and the other end threads that will adapt to your test gauge.
I do declare this has been one of the most perplexing threads I've seen. And the one theme that is common between dragracer and cldunivan is that they experienced the problem when a drive hose was changed. That would seem to be significant. If it were just one machine this happened to, one could easily say it could be coincidence. But the same result with two machines? That's curious. Still could be coincidence, but it would have to be of the most weird sort one could experience if so. There are members here that know way more than I do about these machines, and I have never experienced this type of problem myself, whether on a Case machine, JLG, or Genie, as they all use this type of drive pump. I have no real clue as to what's going on. Now, I agree, these types of pumps are pretty much "self priming" via the charge pump. But one thing I'm wondering, and feel free to say I'm crazy; but when a hose was removed for replacement, is it possible that an air bubble was drawn into the servo piston and now it's trapped affecting its operation? Don't ask me how the air could get in there, ain't got that figured out yet. Relief valves and such aside, I can't think of what would affect operation after simply changing a hose other than swash plate control problem. Just trying to think outside the box and maybe shake another idea out of the tree.
A schematic would help all parties, I would be interested in the case drain flow out of the "problem" pump. If these are Eaton Vickers pumps there maybe info on their website. Maytag
quick question: do the o rings on these bolts really matter cause when i took my pump apart checking those relief valves and just seeing whats behind the bolts most of the orings broke and i didn't put any back. the bolts are tight and no fluid is leaking so i assumed it was ok. am i wrong on this??
cld, those o rings need to be in there or you will have leak. They see about5000 psi under load. Your just sealing underside of bolt to housing now. Ok for now but needs o ring sooner or later. Atco, if you read Gooses entry he says this happens frequently, Im guessing cld needs to redo bottom of barrel and brass again. Trust me when I say it doesn`t take much leakage there to fail.
Update!! So i took the day off, loaded up the machine and trailered it to another case dealer with a great mechanic and got the charge pressure checked. it was at 350 cold and dropped about 50 pounds i think once it got half way warm and probably would have dropped more. the mechanic said the same thing that the plate and barrel mating surface probably wasn't smooth enough. i got on the phone to a company that deals direct with sundstrand and got the whole barrel assembly complete and the plate it runs on and a gasket kit coming my way and will have it by friday. Once i got home i tore the machine apart again :bash and got the pump out and dissassembled so for now im waiting on parts and this should fix it. while taking the pump out again i broke the prong off the sensor thats by the pump. the two small lines coming from the drive motors hook under it. anyone know what this sensor is and what its purpose is? Do i need it? is it something that i maybe could get elsewhere besides the dealer?? Thanks again guys.
LoL, yep, I'm aware of how perfect that connection has to be for proper operation. And to add a little more technical as to what happens I'll add this. You are technically correct dragracer when you refer to it as leakage. The result of excessive leakage where piston barrel mates with valve plate generally is inability to build good working pressure, very weak pump. This will typically generate heat in hyd oil as well. But another condition that can happen with a poor mating surface here, especially small grooves and scratches, is sudden loss of pressure under load. A pump that will actuate a motor or cylinder until it gets under a hard load then just drops off. Some oil has to leak through the connection of piston barrel and valve plate to keep the two components lubricated, but a surface that allows a good bit of oil under pressure to leak through under a hard load can actually lift the piston barrel away from its mating with valve plate resulting in a sudden drop of pressure. In either case, repair or replacement of piston barrel surface and valve plate is in order. Nice to hear cldunivan has ordered new componets. That's one sure fire way to tell if it is in fact his problem. Good choice bro.
cld, that switch should be for some idiot light like hyd filter or something. Turn key on or start rig and touch 2 wires toghther, see what light comes on, or if nothing unhook 2 wires and see. Where did you get your parts and how much? This guy says the other side of the one I did is getting weak now. Great :Banghead Good luck
Ok so i got my parts today. and yes the new assembly did compress about 3/8 of an inch so i know pressure is being applied to the plate. I got the pump rebuilt tonight and hopefully i will have time to get it in 2maro provided it doesn't rain. Dragracer: as far as pricing. i got prices as high as 2400 for the rotating group and 210 for the brass plate. I ended up getting a good deal threw a hydraulic shop in town that deals direct with sundstrand and he hooked me up with the complete rotating group with the pistons and springs and stuff fully assembled for $530 and the brass plate for $70 bucks. He also got me a complete seal kit and gasket set, its like 60 pieces or more, for 115 bucks. Im not complaining, happy as can be!!!! Just hope all goes well.. :usa
Update!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1 DRUM ROLL PLEASE .................................................................................................................................................................................................... It works, good or better than new! I am so happy and i thank all of you so much!! You people are the best!
Glad you got going, BTW what model Sundstrand pump does your Bobcat use? Maytag
It is a M91 series
Glad it worked out for you, What an educational experience, huh. Melben
Congrats CLD, one question though, you said this one compressed 3/8 and your old group had no compression. Do you think those 3 pins were shorter on your old one or worn up into that ring? Be interesting to know, mabye this was the only thing causing your lekage.:beatsme .I have an idea ,why dont you take your new one back out and apart and see if pins are longer:badidea.
Same problem. I bought a 1845c as a project, only 1600 hours and all runs and works great, except right side control/pump.. I had to repair the cluster sprocket for someone tried to operate it with the parking pin engaged.. But all that is fixed and a new motor for that side but still no power to that side. And what I am curious about the most is why when I go full defection on the right side control the left side quits working..?? let off of the control and the left works great. I took the old motor apart and there was no metal and the plates were without a nick one..But the roller pins had what looked like a little "gaulding" and kind of worn, but no metal was found. So I replaced it and no difference. There is what appears to be two sending units of some sort..maybe pressure, heat?? I don't see them in any parts breakdown and like Cldunivan one of the tabs broke.. Basically it sounds exactly like Cldunivan but are there any other things that I should look at first prior to overhauling the pump? And will the system purge air on its own or does it need to be bleed some way. Thanks Mike
Leakage within the tandem pump on the weak side is allowing charge pump pressure to fall causing the other side to quit driving also . you need to rebuild the weak side and also inspect the other side as low charge pressure can cause damage to the shoes on the pistons and eventual failure. Mel
I agree with mel pump group is most likely worn. Be nice to put guages on there first to look at charge press and pump press prior to disassembly, and look at those large relief valves on that side (if suspect (swap to other side see if weakness follows). Then if no help there pull pumps, Its not that bad of a job. Sand plate flat a reassemble. Look at charge pump while out. switches are back alarm and hyd light.
The charge pump pressure was little over 350 @ full throttle at charge pump. And when read from the rightside...Pressure when pushing the control forward went to from 350 plus to zero.. When pushing control to reverse, the pressure stayed 350 and the pump whined like it was under a heavy load. Thanks again! Mike
need to follow attachment on pg 1 of this thread from alrman, looks like your press drop is too much in one direction. I would swap those big reliefs from side to side, all 4 of them, then if no help swap wheel motors then if no help pull transmission. Make sure that orface is clear and the screw in side for pulling machine is seated good. make sure no dirt in lines when loose.
I pulled apart the tandem pump and disassmenbled the rear pump for the right side and the wear plate did have some groves so much so I am sure there was enough blowby that would allow for the cylinder to be "floated" off the plate. What I also seen was that the three pins that hold the pressure to the plate, had about 20 thousands indention for each pin in the collar. Other than that it looked to be in great shape. So my question is to all..Where is the best place to buy parts for the tandem pump and if I were to lap the wear plate what is the minimum thickness.. Right now it measures .204. I looked at Colemenequipment but some of the parts such as the pins require you purchase an assembly which is about 750.00 Then add the wear plate for 144 and it starts to add up to 1000 dollars real quick.. So if you all know where I can get parts for the pump that has a better breakdown so that I don't have to buy a whole piston pump assembly that would be great.. Thanks! Mike
Hi cldunivan, great experience to read about your troubleshooting, progress and the help coming from other members. I can't help but wondering how casually you writing about your work on the machine. I have 1994 Case 1840, it just stopped driving all together although the boom and tilt keep working fine. I was told by a Case dealer I probably need to replace the tandem pump coupler. I purchased the coupler (which is installed behind the flywheel cover) and now I am stuck trying to figure out how to remove the tandem pump to get behind the flywheel cover. The pump is sandwiched between the flywheel and a front plate welded across both sides to the frame (restricting the rear to front movement) and a steel floor and various cross rods (restricting up or down pump movement direction). At this point it appears that even if I manage to remove the two bolts holding the drive pump to the flywheel cover and remove the supporting bracket underneath the pump to drop it a little bit down, the high pressure hoses attached to the pump may not allow the pump to be moved far away from the flywheel to replace the pump coupler. It also seems there is not enough room around the pump to fit wrenches the size needed to unscrew all the large hoses connectors at the pump end so you can imagine my surprise reading how some people remove and put back similar pumps several times before everything is working fine. I am very curious and appreciate any hint from anyone how to go about this whole process to replace the coupler. We live on an acreage hours drive from any repair shop and the transportation cost is really prohibitive. I am using the machine to remove snow from our long and steep driveway and we are getting more fresh, wet, heavy snow every day. All help is sincerely appreciated. Greetings to all.
Welcome to HEF case1840! Couple of things to help. If the pump has stripped the coupling/adaptor - it is highly likely, the front shaft of the tandem pump will be worn & also need replacing. In saying that the last one I repaired the splines were OK & the 8 x bolts that attatch the coupling to the drive plate were broken, shock absorber rubbers had gone to cause this & nobody could hear the rattle & banginging going on each time the engine was shut down......... To get to do this repair, the high pressure hoses must be removed & the entire pump will need to be out. The entire work area should be CLEAN - no dirt is to enter any open hose fitting, or you will destroy your transmission & motors within hrs of operation. Hydraulic caps & plugs need to be fitted to all removed hoses & fittings to ensure this. About the problem you are describing about welded plates & cross rods........... the 1840 is very easy to work on........ once the cab is slid forward.......... From your description, you are working through the seat cavity...... yes?
alrman, getting the tandems out through the seat opening woud tend to complicate ones day wouldn't it!! Believe it or not the best thing I ever bougth for working on tandem pump removal was a cheap set of China 1/2" drive offsetwrenches for use with a breaker bar or ratchet. Got a set from 1 1/16 thru 2" for less than a Hundred dollars and the best money I ever spent. They are tougher than Whalebone and being able to adjust the angle with a ratchet allows you to work around other hoses easily. I suppose I could have made the Snap On man Five Hundred richer but am not the least dissapointed with the performance of mine. Mel
Not a problem for a gynaecologist with bionic arms
Thank you all for the quick response and a hint that the seat opening is not the right place to start with the pump removal - that is a good news because it means there is a better way. I started cleaning the whole area last night and noticed a smaller sliding rail on the right inside of the engine compartment. From the replies it sounds that the whole cab can be moved forward - any electrical wires or other components need to be first disconnected to prevent damage? Could you point me out where (or what) to look for in order to slide the cab? After sliding the cab forward, does it need to suspended from the outside or is it supported internally? The temperature today is getting above freezing so I will spray clean and power wash the whole pump and engine area to make sure there is nothing to enter the system before the hoses are disconnected. I will then try to get some offset wrenches locally but it will be difficult since we are here really tiny community but I will keep asking and hopefully something comes up. I feel much better now knowing there is a better way to remove the pump than the seat opening - it looked hopelessly last night as I was looking at the very limited room around the pump. The strangest thing is that the machine worked absolutely perfectly the whole day, without even the smallest indication something is wrong or about to give up. At the end of the day I parked it as usual and when I came back the very next morning and started the engine, it would not move from the parked position either direction and the engine sounds exactly the same in neutral or forward or reverse. No strange sounds or rattling or grinding ever....kind of a mystery. Today I will clean everything and will try to slide out the cab to get better access to the pump. Any hints or points to watch for or things to avoid .....really appreciate everything. Thank you all
Here's instructions from manual - they aren't fool proof. Only wires to worry about should be plugs x 3 under seat - IF no other wiring has been done to it - if so, it will probably snag things up. Basically think to yourself - "if it controls something, it must be disconnected"............ loader controls aux controls travel controls brakes Good idea to remove the bucket or attatchment, if not done so. tools req - 3/4" socket & spanner - cabin bolts x 4 1/2" & 9/16" - fwd /rev links & 4in1 linkage long nose pliers for clips clevis pins at loader control valve & park brake cables Pull cab all way fwd & it will support itself. NB - instructions are for 1845C - on a 1840 - the shock absorbers (step10) stay attatched. step13 - Park brake pins are under floorplate - look for springs
story (Not sure about it being true) alrman, a response to your response, Once there was a Gynecologist who wanted a change of occupation, he decided to become a mechanic. He went to a tech school and trained and was given his senior project, overhauling a tractor engine. He was graded on cleanliness, teardown and assembly and final tuning when done. When he got his grade he was surprised to discover a grade of 150 points on a 100 point test. He asked the professor if there was a mistake, the professor stated that the grade was correct but he gave 50 bonus points as he was the only student to do the overhaul process through the exhaust. Mel
Hello everybody, back from pressure washing the pump and engine - it turned out not to be as much fun as I expected. Arlman, thank you for the instructions, it took only about 15 to 20 minutes to have the cab moved (including the roof of the temporary structure sheltering the skidsteer which got unintentionally lifted up by about a foot when rising the bucket up). Being able to slide the cab forward makes all the difference and it is a pleasure to have unobstructed view and access to the tandem pump. One thing I am not sure of is how far the cab can be moved forward because at this point the top of the cab hits the bucket bottom (now in almost vertical position) since the bucket swung down after a while. The pump and everything around is now clean and ready to be be disassembled. The flywheel cover is rather massive plate of steel - is there any special tool or method to remove it without damaging anything? Also is there any seal(s) that will need to be replaced later when putting the flywheel cover back or should I use automotive grade silicone gasket (I can see some leftovers around the cover edges)? The pump has a lug mounted on the top - probably to suspend it from above while removing it from its support and from he flywheel cover? What will be the next step after the flywheel cover is removed? I don't think the engine oil needs to be drained out before that but the hydraulic oil probably should be - what is the best place to do that? It seems like the bottom hose connection to the small pump under the the radiator is a convenient place and low enough to drain the oil from the system? Any hints are truly appreciated - this is my first bigger job on the skidsteer.....a little bit unusual way to celebrate New Year. Happy 2012 everybody, wishing you good luck and success in the coming year!
Congatulations on your efforts so far - even if you now have a sunroof in your shed! I usually don't drain the hyd oil to do this - but I have caps & plugs for the hoses that are removed, that will stop the oil coming out of the feed & return hoses. If you don't have caps & plugs - you probably should drain the hyd oil. The hose you mentioned is a good drain, there is also a plug at the bottom of the tank for the last bit of oil which will remain, if you wish to do a full service. I can't stress enough the importance of keeping the hose ends clean during this process - if you don't have the plugs, you will need to seal the fittings & hose ends with rag & tape, & at the refitting time they should be washed with clean fuel or brake cleaner BEFORE reconnecting. The heaviest part of the job is removing the pumps - the adaptor plate is easy. I have a small ratcheting winch (come along) that I attatch to the rear work light mounting bracket - that will support the pumps & when removed from the mounts it will swing to one of the tyres. You could use a floor crane or at worst, with someone helping, tie the pumps to a 5' length of pipe & with a man standing on each side of the machine lift it clear. Once the pumps are out, unbolt the adaptor plate & remove & all will be revealed. Input shaft to pumps are often leaking - check it. If the shaft is worn & needs replacing, the seal will be replaced as part of the repair anyhow.
Arlman thank you for the info, I think one way to support the pump would be installing a cross bar above the pump and then to suspend it on a commercial grade strapping with a ratchet which I could simply put together. Yesterday I drove into our little town and to my surprise on my third attempt I found a repair shop where the owner carried 1 ½ and 1 ¼ open end wrenches plus the needed sizes of caps and plugs for the hydraulic hoses so everything is ready to remove the pump. Before I do that I would like to make sure that the reason for the loader not moving is not caused by some electrical problem or faulty hydraulic pressure / temperature sensor. There are three sensors mounted on the pump itself but the indicator panel has no warning light related to hydraulic oil pressure, only to temperature. All other indicators relate to the engine (with the exception of hydraulic filter and temperature) and that’s running fine. It would be really disappointing to remove the perfectly sealed flywheel-pump-hoses assembly only to find that one (or more) sensors on the pump (or some other location) has been malfunctioning and preventing the drive pump to function properly. Anyone knows what the three sensors mounted directly on the pump are and what is their purpose or function? Are they normally open or closed, how they can be tested or bypassed to test if they could be the reason for the problem? Or is it true that when the engine is running the charge pump should be producing pressure at some point regardless if any or all sensors are malfunctioning at that point and the loader (or at least the engine) should respond to the lever movement ? If that’s the case, to which point on the pump could a pressure gauge be connected to make sure the charge pump is functioning properly and there is a pressure available to each of the L+R drive pumps? I realized this is a lot of questions but the loader was working perfectly, I just parked it for the night and then the next morning I started the engine and it would not move at all. Sounds more like a sensor problem then a mechanical break down of a massive coupler or a stripped spline. Thank you all and Happy New Year !!! PS. I was trying to paste pictures of the pump and switches into the body of this reply but it would not paste any jpg files. Anyone knows how to go about that? Thanks
There are no pressure switches on an 1840 to stop it's drive, no safety devices - they are fully mechanical. The only switches on them are temperature & back up alarm (if fitted). Just pull the pumps & you will find your problem. Trust me To post pics see Willie's Wise Way to do so here -
Problem found! Arlman, thank you for all your info and your encouragement to open the flywheel cover. For reasons noted before, I was kind of reluctant to take the last step because I could not believe that a solidly built machine like this would break down overnight while only parked after working flawlessly all day. But after suspending the pump with a ratcheting tie down thrown over the cab and removing the pump mounting plate, the explanation for the skid steer not moving either direction became plainly obvious - and simple. All bushings were missing (probably shredded to dust long time ago) and the eight bolts on the flywheel to coupler adapter plate were sheared off and the stubs remaining were not long enough to engage into the eight holes in the coupler to transfer the torque. The only explanation of how this could happen is as follows: I have bought this machine just recently from a dealer. When I was replacing the battery I had to remove oily mixture of dust, soil, sand, leaves etc so thick that the plate supporting the battery was buried more that an inch under that mud. Sections of high pressure hoses on the floor were also completely buried in this mud. It was so thick that the whole seat belt including the buckle was hidden in it. I found there also some of the sheared bolts with nuts still attached but I had no idea what they are at that time. I removed two 5 gallon pails of that oily matter from the floor under the seat, tandem pump and engine. Obviously the machine wasn't cared for properly and probably started giving problems so it was used as a trade in while purchasing new machine at the dealer. The day before the morning it would not move I was working with it for the first time the whole day. Apparently this caused all parts to warm up (including the coupler which can slide on the spline a little bit back and forth) and when the skid steer was parked on a slope front down, the coupler slid down a touch towards the pump and thus disengaged completely from the short bolt stubs that were transferring the torque up to that point. I have attached pictures showing some details for the benefit of others who’s machine may stop moving and they are wondering what it could be. Mostly everybody was predicting that either the spline or the coupler is gone but no one brought up the possibility of missing bushings and sheared bolts on the flywheel plate combined with coupler sliding out of reach of the sheared stubs. It explains why there was no grinding or other noise and how it could happen while left parked overnight motionlessly. Pump supported by a ratcheting strap wrapped over the cab, After removing the pump mounting plate, the coupler and the flywheel plate are revealed showing the all bolts sheared off, remains of bushings and markings on the 8 bolts. The spline and the coupler look good, no damage there, I have 8 new bushings to install but I am not sure what strength the markings on the screw head indicate. Anyone knows if these bolts are intentionally weaker, kind of like shear pins on a snow blower to protect all the more expensive parts? The bolts are yellow plated. Also, the four bolts holding the plate to the flywheel were difficult to loosen up. Should a locktite be applied to those or anywhere else? Thanks for help.
Good News! :thumbsup Those bolts are grade 5 & are not meant to shear in anyway. If grade 8 bolts were only available, fit them. Use loctite on all bolts & lube the spline with graphite grease or anti-sieze.
chain oil Thanks Arlman, got the right bolts and locking nuts. The most difficult task of all was fitting back the pump with coupler to align properly with the bushings on the flywheel plate. The pump - coupler assembly is quiet heavy and the closer the pump with the coupler is to the bushings inside the flywheel casing the smaller is the opening through which one can peek at the coupler -bushings alignment. I ended up using one more ratcheting strap thrown over the cab and supporting the pump at the engine end in addition to the first one which supported the battery end. This way I was able to manipulate the pump assembly properly in all directions and all went well. While still having the cab out of the way I decided to remove the chain covers and inspect the oil. The chains and sprockets look good at first glance but the "oil" has an almost white color. I reached to the bottom and there seem to be a lot of sediment. The mixture feels oily and there are number of small round balls floating in it - frozen drops of water? We are having here just about freezing temperatures or slightly below. I took some pictures and also splattered some of that stuff on the frame to see it better. Does it look like this is an oil-water mixture or is it some additive to the oil that changed the color of the oil? It has the same color and consistency in both left and right rear holding tanks (didn't check the front ones at this point since the cab is still moved to the front). I would not expect the mixture to color exactly same in both tanks and that's confusing. Anyone has any experience with this or additives to to chain oil? Would not want to drain and waste good oil just because it was colored by some additive. Thanks.
Those pictures of the chain case oils only confirm the lack of care from previous owner - it is contaminated with water. In saying that, it is very difficult to stop it happening, especially if machine is stored outside. They need to be drained & flushed with some diesel to get rid of the gunk. About 10lts of engine oil required for each side. If the hydraulics were due for a service, put new oil in hyd & use the old hyd oil in the chains. Check all the cover seals to ensure they are doing their job, good idea to put a smear of grease on them to help seal them.
G'day Guy's, Well it has been ages since I've read this forum and came across this thread off goggle and man what a great thread. Everything I've done over the last few days on this 1840 like check pressures so machined up 3/8-18 thread with a 1/4"bsp thread. Worked a treat for all pressure testing but only got 400 psi on main pressure test. Testing the left side that worked only 500-600 psi ( but working). The right side dropped to 200 psi and the noise of the pump when right engaged does suggest the brass plate will need a hone and got all the gear here for that. Cheers Bryan
G'day Guy's, Well pulled the rear of the pump apart this morning and sure enough the brass disk was heavily scored so honing the scores out, 2 hours in and nearly there. Now as the left side that worked didn't come upto pressure on the second test I'll take that one out and have a look for scoring. Anyway found some history today as to the failure and yep after a hose change (working in sand) my mate drove 50 metres and it failed. Gotta say what I've learnt from this thread has been great as I reckon with honed brass plates this ol' 1840 will be back going again with some gusto. Cheers Bryan
Hi Willie, been about 3 years since I was here and I guess I lost my sign in stuff and had to re-register So Im not allowed to post now, so Ive got to piggy back this question I just got a 1840 and had to replace drive motor, got it all put together and I cant find neutral, dont have my guages anymore. Is there a way to adjust linkage without guages Been awhile, since Ive had a neutral issue