Purchased a 941 today with the engine sitting on pallets in front of it. Complete basket case. What I would call kit form lol. The machine serial number is 80h2521. The block serial number is 80h2768. When I call cat they tell me its a 3304 engine. But by the front gear case it sure looks like a d330 to me. It has a 5s5300 block part number. When i look that up it comes up as a d330 or a 3304. From what little information i can find out there it says the 941 came with a d330 and the 941b came with the 3304. Doind some more research I came across where the d330c engine was updated by using the 3304 block and head upgading it to a 4.75" up from the 4.5" bore in the d330. Ok so now with this information it looks to me ( and mind you this is just speculation) that cat did some Frankenstein stuff during the transition from the d330base to the 3304 base. Looks like the long block is the same but its what bolts onto that which makes it a d330c or a 3304 engine. Ok so where im going with all this. I bought this machine with the flawed understanding that the 941 has a 3304 engine. No problem right as i have a partsed out 955l with a 3304 engine. Simple easy peasy right? Lol WRONG!! so now we get to the big question and my hope that you guys can help me with some info so I might be able to salvage this situation and put this machine together for my brother. Can anyone tell me by my machine serial number if it came with a d330, d330c or 3304engine. Or if the 941 series before the 941 b came with a d330, d330c or 3304 engine? And then can anyone tell me by my engine serial number if it is a d330c or 3304? If whats in the basket case a d330c engine whats the chance of stripping my 3304 engine out of the 955l down to the long block then building it back up using the d330c gear case and parts to be able to go into the 941? Hope all this makes sense and is not clear as mud lol! Thanks in advance.
From what I can tell, the D330 went up to serial number 80H3883. 80H3884 and up is the 3304. Quick and dirty way to tell is to look at the water pump. First pic is the D330, second pic is 3304.
I guess i could also measure the bore? Also I think the 3304 and d330c head had squarish exshaust ports like in my picture and the d330 had round ports. But i may be wrong on that
The D330c is a 4.75" bore, that was part of the update from the original D330. If the engine has a serial number prefix 80H, it's a D330c, the engine serial numbers matched the frame of the machine at that time (even though yours has clearly had a transplant).
Sounds like the update of the d330c engine long block became the base of the 3304 engine series. If this is correct then i should be able to strip my 3304 down to the long block and build back up using the d330c parts and fit it in the 941 frame with all the correct parts for the machine. Is this right?
That first picture water pump is for a D330C, the D330 water pumps are belt driven on vehicle applications (non-industrial). Bottom picture is the 3304 water pump as stated.
Seems like even Cat is confused on the D330/3304 engines! Go to SIS with the S/N 80h2768 and looking in the section on cooling system one place shows what I would call the "top mount water pump", the upper one in Cmark's pictures, then look in another section and they show the "front mount water pump" like the lower one in Cmark's pictures. Then if you go to section on remove and install engine it sure appears as Old Magnet says to be a belt driven pump! How is Workshoprat92 suppose to figure it out if the people who built it can't? Guess best thing would be to post plenty of pictures of both the engine in machine and the one he's hoping to use and see if we can figure it out!
Lol yea there is alot of head scratching on this one! Im pretty sure the block and head are the d330c or 3304. D330c and 3304 are same block and head and even comes up in parts system listed as can be used for both. I cant remember which water pump it has. Im gona go pick up all tje engine parts tommorow and should have some more info then. I think im starting to see why the previous owner didnt want to tackle this project!
I really am hoping that if the d330c and the 3304 use the same block and head then the worst im gona have to do is strip the 3304 down to the long block then go back up from there with the d330c parts. Thats worst case scenerio. If i can keep from pulling the gear case off the 3304 i will go that route. I think I just wont know till I get everything home and on the bench side by side.
Am a thinking are enough dissimilar aspects not going to be able to morph one from the two.
I could be incredibly wrong but if its the same long block assembly how could you not? I guess i wont know till i get it all in the shop side by side. I havent had a chance to go get it all yet.
IIRC same basic block, not certain any machining differences, pistons different, Heads DEFINITELY Different, fuel system a world of difference. Crank rods cam, without SIS I cannot tell you.
Are you referring to a d330 or a d330c when comparing to a 3304? Cause from everything I have seen the d330c and the 3304 are the same basic engine at the long block level. The only difference is the d330c uses all the straight d330 pieces from rhe long block on up. Not sure where your getting different head cause when i look up that head part number as well as the block it lists it for a d330c or a 3304. I dont know why the pistons would be different as the d330c and 3304 both have the same bore and stroke. Obviously the straight d330 engine is gona have smaller pistions but may have the same crank as the stroke was the same. I just wont know for sure till i get it all on the bench.
Got all my parts home and in the shop today. Now having a beter chance to look at it all despite the rust I think all the parts are in pretty good shape. Looks like everything was pretty fresh in this engine and it got water in the cylinders and locked the rings to the cylinders. I should bd able to save the pistons and maybe even the liners depending on how much honing it needs. Despite being rusted its not pitted. I think im gona take a shot at rebuilding this engine. Just gotta get some parts cleaned up and make sure I have a good block, head and crank. Whats everyones thoughts on aftermarket parts? Is there a brand thats good and are there brands to stay away from? Is cat classic ok or forget it all and go with standard cat?
IPD parts and Bulldog gasket kits are OK. Avoid High-Gaskets
The engine in the picture is the 330C 4"3/4 bore that was pre the 3304, the cylinder head is not the same as the 3304, the Crank , balance shafts, rods,sump and pan will swap I would think the push rods and lifters will swap over (but check) the valves are shorter in the 330C by about 1/8" the oil pump and pipe work should also swap I feel, the liners will need checking on the outer face for tin worm so might be best to just fit new? tctractors
Not trying to argue and just trying to get the right information but correct me if im wrong. From everything i can find the d330 engine has a 4.5" bore. And the d330c and 3304 has the 4.75" bore. That makes the d330c and 3304 block the same. Even when you run the part number it lists as a d330c and 3304 use part. Same goes for the head. Not sure what your saying is different about the head but I really havent had a chance to look at it that close. It looks to me like cat upgraded the d330 to a d330c with a bore increase and then that long block combination became the base for the 3304. Of course that just speculation on my end lol. What are you calling tin worms? Is that electrolysis pits? I have looked at my liners and they have zero pitting from electrolysis. Two liners have tje postions froze in them and two dont. The two that are out have the 8n3180 pistons with the new cat logo on them. I was told that the engine was stuck and thats why it was disassembled. It appears thet it was froze in teo cylinders from water in the engine which is not hard to do with the exhaust manifold thats on it! Judging by the condition of the liners which have no ridge or wear and can still see some cross hatch and the age and condition of the pistons and bearings that this engine had a very recent overhaul before it was neglected to water damage! I really do think there is a better than average chance I can save the liners and a good bunch of the other parts! That will all become clear with clean up and inspection.
Check the sleeve seal ring lands and edges of the grooves for those Tin worm signs, double check the counterbore depths before you install those sleeves for consistency.
I will post some pics when i get things cleaned up. Got it all sorted out today and figured out im missing an oil pan as well as all the push rods and one rod bolt. The head bolts are in such bad shape im not sure id trust them either. Still impressed with tje condition of whats there. I think first job is to clean up the block head and crank. Without that i got nothing. The crank beari gs show tje crank was turned .040 at rods and .010 at mains. I think that pretty well means that crank is at its end if it wont polish and be within tolerance at the rod journals!
workshoprat, the outer face of the cylinder liners could well be damaged with the Tin Worm on the thrust side so don't worry to much about how good the inner bore looks, the Cylinder Head on the 330C is NOT the same as the 3304 although they look similar, the big change is at the front of the head were the water connection is, the 330 A and B Series engines look nothing even remotely like the 330C and 3304 and cannot be confused as they have side windows in the block and CATERPILLAR cast into the block side with a cylinder head about 5" thick. tctractors
Tony my dad always taught me it was ok to turn the liners and reinstall for a second life as the damage was always only on one side. What is your take on that ?
Still not sure what your calling tin worm. Im telling you these liners have zero pitting on them in any spot of the outer face. I cannot find even as much of a trace of a pit anywhere. I really do think these are very low time liners before it got water down the exshaust and stuck the rings to the liner. Now im a licenced aircraft mechanic as well as 25 years experince turning wrenches on everything from lawn mowers to heavy equipment and aircraft with everything in between and im pretty sure I know how to inspect a part to determine if it has pits or corrosion that makes it beyond a serviceable part. But you dont want to belive me and thats ok cause im pretty sure you have had your fair share of novice beginers who dont know which end of a wrench to hold on here so its somewhat understandable. Anyhow thats good info on the head. Im gona have to take a real good look at that for my understanding and carefully compare the parts. I really think the 3304 out of my 955l will fit the same spot on the mounts and has the same rubber puck flywheel mounting. I have no doubt that it will fit in the machine and bolt in. From there its just will the hoses and hydraulic cooling lines and all hook up. At this point im gona take a shot at it even if I have to do some custom fab work of lines and such to make it work. Im to far into it to give up and I just dont know how to give up. I have a lathe, mill, torch and a welder. When you have those it can be anything you want it to be!
workshoprat, that is some pedigree you have working on Aircraft and stuff, I never get to touch Aircraft as I am stuck working on CAT and other make equipment for the last 48 years, the 3304 out of your 955 will fit with a few modifications, I would say you need to measure the width of the drive pucks as I think you will find they are wider in the 955, anyhow on the liner think if they look perfect on the outer face around the lower top seal ring and above you are good to go, I have posted pictures of the Tin Worm eating through the outer cylinder wall many times in Shop Talk in the past with this damage showing after only 6 months on some engines without the correct coolant, in 1 year (personal Record) I managed to swap out 128 piston and liner packs so I have seen a few innards, the Lanchester style balance shafts and bushings need to be in top order as they rotate at X 2 Crank speed and need careful setting in Time, they cannot be fitted incorrectly as the gear cut angle is handed, best of luck. tctractors. p.s. The 955 has piston cooling and a Turbo I tend to think.
TC trust me when i say the aircraft thing isnt all its cracked up to be! Its fun on a hobby level and a nightmare on a professional level! I will never ever do it again for a living! I enjoyed my time as a diesel and support vehicle mechanic for a large transit company in denver far more than the aircraft job because the people you deal with are so much better! I have never seen such odd and abrasive personalities as I have had seen working aircraft. Out of all my schooling the one that has served me best in life and I have enjoyed the most has been my deisel power tech schooling I recieved in high school vocational tech program through a community college diesel tech program. I know alot of people dont put alot of stock in ase certs but I even have ase master certs in heavy truck and master cert in automotive. I took all the test at the same time and passed them all. Like i say i know some guys don't put much stock in it but its still an achievement im proud of as I have seen guys struggle just to pass even a few tests. I am no stranger to turning wrenches. I cannot say i know alot about any one thing but i know a little bit about a great many things. I do appreciate and value the vast familiarity and experience guys like you have on this machinery! Sorry if I seemed kind of uppity or arrogant! One thing I have learned in all my years is you never know everything, you never stop learning and you can learn something from everyone and anyone! I guess i just get a little frustrated when i feel im not getting the respect of my years of effort and feel I'm being treated as a newbie. Like I say its understandable though as you have no idea of my experience and training level! Thank everyone here so much for your knowledge! Also I will check those pucks. Hope they have the same bolt spacing. Not sure on the piston coolung but yes my 955 engine is turbocharged. Not sure what it would hurt to run it non turbocharged or if i would have to change fuel setting to run it non turbo. I dont know that it would hurt to run it turbocharged but it is about 40 hp more than that machine would be used to so i suppose there would be greater risk of breaking drive parts? Thats all assuming you can get enough purchase with the track to ground as that machine does not weigh all that much. Your thoughts on that?
I should also say I think my thought process at the moment is to try and put my 955l engine in this machine. Two reasons on that. First i want to get this machine up and running for my brother as soon as possible. Secondly if I dont get this 955 engine in something soon it has a great possibility of ending up like my basket case engine. Here in the humidity belt what ya dont use ya lose! With that being said I really would also like to build this d330c engine on the side because it just seems whats there is to good to let go and i hate to see such beutiful yellow iron die! Plus I just want the challenge! So thats my thoughts at the moment lol!
Workshoprat and tctractors. Please take this in the humor it is intended. As I don't think either of you are bragging but we all know some out there that this song could be really aimed at!
Thats a good one from when country was good lol!!!
The 955 engine has piston cooling and is best left alone to run a Turbo, as for the power increase it's going to make the transmission oil temp fly up as the 941 is struggling to cool its oil with 70 bhp running up against it, the oil is cooled via a Heat Exchanger with water from the engine as the only method, the 941B and 951C used a fan blown oil cooler plus a water cooler to help things remain at a handy level, so you might need to watch things, the tooth count on the bevel gear and pinion also in the f/drive changed in the 941 B when the engine power was turned up to 80 bhp. tctractors
TC I haddent considered the trans temp but uea I can see that being an issue. Honestly all this machine will do for my brother is be a maintenance machine to load and unload other projects on and off trailers at his shop and do some driveway and property maintenace on his 10 acres. He is never gona take it out and work it hard for money. If he keeps from being ham fisted on the throttle it will serve him well the rest of his life for no more than it will get used. Also I think if I can get the original engine built we can swap it out latter and then have the 955l engine for the next project! There is always the next project lol!
Here's an idea just hook up a temp switch to the trans an use it to power an ignition coil with wire in the seat. That way if he gets to working it to hard and it over heats he gets a kick in the but from the coil!
The 5S5300 block has always been a D330C casting. The trouble is the engine looks nearly identical to the 3304. There are a few ways to tell them apart visually, but 5s5300 is a C series engine. Plus, cat muddies the waters by updating the p/n for the 330C to the 3304 part numbers. They are correct - lots of things on them are the same, they can replace one another as complete units most of the time (there is bound to be an application where that is not true) but not all the parts will inter change. The cylinder head and block are two of those items. It’s tricky, and the old farts that know this stuff are thinning out quickly.
Easy identification is the water pump. Some repo heads now can be used on either the D330c or the 3304