Im thinking of pulling the trigger on an old 955l for use around the farm. The machine im looking at has had the same owner since 2002 and he kept it in a barn and kept up on the maintenance and has the manual. He put about 700 hours on it. Before he bought it it had new undercarrage and final drives done, so that is all good. The main issue is he thinks it needs new steering clutches, i dont think it does from his discription though. It has power just fine to the tracks, it just wont turn right. He says when you dig the bucket in and throttle up both tracks spin. Im thinking its just a brake or brake linkage problem. He already tried adjusting the brake but that didnt fix it. Another issue is that he says it goes through a quart or so of oil if used for 8 hours. It doesnt burn black smoke out the exaust though. Possible leak or slowly burning it? Is some oil consumption ok? Not sure the hours on the motor, he said the meter was broke. Price is $10,000
Any advice or thoughts on this machine?
You have a farm on Mars ?? Interesting...
yea that red rock is tough stuff.... Hired Elon Musk to ship the cat out for me on one of his rockets
The steering problem might be either the clutch or the brake on that side. To turn requires releasing the clutch and then applying the brake. either one doesn't work right and the tractor wont turn. To fix either one shouldn't be too difficult provided you're handy with tools and have a Service Manual.
Thanks Nige, i was thinking that if the clutch wasnt releasing then the machine wouldnt stop at all and always be stuck in gear on that side when the pedal was pressed. Im a newbie at this stuff so i will take your word for it. So if its a stuck clutch does that mean that the clutch plates would still be good, but something is wrong with the releasing mechanism? I am handy at fixing things and like learning how things work. You are giving me more confidence to work on it.
Well i bought the cat! Looks in great shape compared to the other ones i looked at. Got some time on the seat today to check out the steering issue. I think your right Nige about it being the clutch too. When i hit the center brake it just keeps going. Left pedal feels ok and turns machine left ok. Right pedal feels soft and seems to go down farther than the left side, no turn. Im thinking i will start by checking that filter screen thing to see if maybe im just not getting oil pressure to the right clutch cylinder. Thinking there may be some brake issue as well since the pedal goes down further than the other side. Have to wait till i get it moved here to start digging into it. Unfortunatly it doesnt come with the service manual, i think its just a maintenance manual so hopefully you guys can help me out if i need it. The main loader lift cylinder on the left side needs to be rebuilt, leaking pretty good. That is one big cylinder, be fun to work on. Ill get some pics up when i get working on it.
You got a Serial Number..? Maybe it might be possible to track down a Service Manual.
85J8641
Found a few that should work https://www.ebay.com/itm/Caterpilla...272253?hash=item5b544bb77d:g:RfkAAOSw-6BchnDO https://www.ebay.com/itm/CAT-Caterp...110586?hash=item261ee571ba:g:VsEAAOSw3-xc~ULL https://www.servicemanualpro.com/?page=Products&searchbox=85j8641#
The first one is not an OEM Manual. Either the 2nd one from eBay or the CD from Service Manual Pro, and we have a winner......
you mean that i got to get the book from service manual pro? Of course its the most expensive one. Would have thought the cd and the book would be the exact same thing just in different formats.
You misunderstood me. The first link you posted from eBay was a non-genuine paper Manual. Either the 2nd link you posted from eBay (book) or the CD from SMP would be genuine. Take your pick whichever format you prefer. The SMP CD might be a more recent version of the manual containing later updates than a book from eBay that was printed who knows when, but that’s not guaranteed.
Sorry, read that wrong. Ok CD manual is in the mail. Cat is being delivered tomorrow afternoon.
Cat got delivered today
Service manual came in the mail today. Here is what it says about my steering issue.
Just remember the Service Manual doesn't necessarily cover ALL the possibilities. What about: - 1. Wear in steering control linkage joints..? 2. Lack of lubrication in steering linkage..? Those are jiust two I can think of off the top of my head. First step IMHO. Pull up floor plates, lubricate steering linkage and inspect for worn parts. Try adjusting the linkage according to the setting recommended in the manual. The procedure is right below where you took that snip from the troubleshooting guide. See where that gets you.
just did that to 951 take the floor off look to see if the #5 lever is rusted stuck the brake pedal is on the same shaft mine were stuck sprayed up and worked back and forth till they freed up the brake linkage but the I had to put a pry bar over the pedal and under the brake lever ounce freed up take the plate off the steering housing and tighten the brake adjuster till their 3 inches of pedal play
I would suggest a dust mask and bigger radiator, it looks hot and dry there. And don't forget your bottled water..
955 s have little bigger radiator than my 951 I have to make sure the radiator is clear or it will run hot look inside by the fan side make sure not caked with dirt
Ok i finally got around to getting up some video i had been doing of the cat. I had been messing around with the clutch filters. Ive started on the pedal linkages and adjustments already and will post some more content when im done with that. The dust and heat arnt so bad, its the danm biting martian bugs this year that suck!
You have segmented sprockets. That'll help when you replace them - which will be soon considering that the teeth on the RH one are close to being like razors. Carrier roller (RH) in your video is starting to wear out. Have you noticed that the guards/covers are missing over the track tensioner/recoil springs..? Plan on replacing the tension spring and overhauling the tensioner & recoil mechanism on the LH side SOON........They're not refered to as "Death Springs" for nothing. Did the oil in the steering filter housings smell burned to you..? It looked awful dark. A Parts Manual would be a good help to you if you don't have one yet. I can probably give you a link to one you can download in pdf format from Cat for about $90.
Yea i noticed the guards were gone, all the old cats i looked at were missing them. I might try to hunt down a new set somewhere. The oil did smell very strange to me, not sure i would describe it as burnt smelling but definatly wierd. Does that mean something?
Burned oil is usually a symptom of something gone awry in the steering system, like a clutch or a brake (or maybe the trifecta - both). Try dipping your fingers in it then take a good sniff. Any type of burned smell ought to be pretty obvious. I just caught a glimpse of the colour of the oil when you pulled the cover off the steering filter in the video. The oil in that system should be pretty much clear, not dark brown. Plan on new oil and filters as a priority, but you'll have to get the oil hot before you drain it or you won't get the contamination out of the system when you pull the plug. I'm not sure I agree with you that the filters aren't plugged just on the basis of an external visual inspection. The only way to tell is to cut the filter apart, press a section in a vice and then look for particles in the bottom of the pleats. Based on what you had on that shop towel in your video I reckon both filters are, if not plugged, at least well contaminated. Obviously one of your first challenges is getting the machine to steer both ways, but don't lose sight of that LH recoil spring. It's nasty, and with no guard on it if something lets you it will hurl parts hundreds of yards - I kid you not. Anyone who is unfortunate enough to be hit by one of said flying parts is also going to be very dead afterwards. HeavyEquipmentForums
Yea your right about not knowing the condition of that filter. After seeing more about how it works now, i would hve thought both left and right cylinders would not be functioning if it was a clogged filter. Either way I will get a new filter when i change the oil. I am highly suspect of the brake band being broken. What did you make of the material i found in that screen? Do these brakes have that kind of material on the bands? Not sure if its worth doing the adjustments to the pedals until i visually confirm there is still material on the band. Unfortunatly after taking off the brake ajusting top plate and the other top plate of the clutch compartment, i still can not see down in there to tell if the brake band is still intact. That might explain the funny smelling oil and the chuncks i found in the screen though i believe. here are some pics of what im looking at view from the top, (front) clutch/brake top plate removed, (rear )brake adjuster plate removed Here is looking inside that top plate, cant see the part of the brake im looking for. See the gasket material falling off, that is part of what i found in that filter screen that i thought was a seal. this is a view from the back of the machine, i think i will have to take off the bevel gear top plate and possibly the clutch/brake top housing to see the brake band, as well as the fuel tank i think in order to see that brake
Oldgold69, None of my linkages are stuck, they all appear to be working but definatly out of adjustment. The broken side goes down much further than the good side.
after scratching my head a while, i figured i may as well do the adjustment since it will be a lot more work to pull the tank and clutch/brake housing to look at the brake. The first step in the adjustments is tightening up the brakes. Upon tightening them i noticed that the while tightening the right brake adjuster(the side that doesnt turn) the brake makes a clicking noise as i tighten the adjuster bolt. The good side does not make that clicking noise. More confirmation something is wrong with that brake band i would say.
The material you had in your video is friction material IMO. Where it came from is another matter, but the fact that one brake is not working kinda points in that direction. I was hoping it was something external such as linkages. The "gasket material" on the cover is worrying. That cover is supposed to have a gasket on it, not gasket maker. If someone went in there and cut that corner (not replacing a genuine gasket that was obviously broken) then what other corners did they cut while they were in there..? I think plan on a complete teardown of the steering clutches and brakes on both sides sooner rather than later, hopefully before the brake drum on the RH side is badly damaged. I would hold off on the oil and filters until you are ready to tear into the machine, then drain the oil, do the necessary repairs, change filters and fill with new oil all at the same time. Offroad Equipment - www.offroadeq.com/ is a good source of parts for your machine. They have both OEM and non-OEM parts available.
When you say "smelled weird" did it by any chance smell somewhat of sulphur..?
I would say it smells more burnt than like sulphur. You think i have to completely tear down all the clutch plates too? I could not just take the drum assembly out and replace just the break pad if that is the only thing wrong? Im going to get the pedals back together and move the machine out in the field so i can get my tractor around it to lift off the gas tank and whatever other heavy stuff that needs to come off. Ive been looking through the manual trying to figure out just how much stuff needs to come off. Im thinking for sure gas tank. All the info in the manual seems to be in the section of the power train disassyembly and assembly. Looks like the filter and steering booster cover and the steering booster need to come off. Then the steering clutch case cover comes off. From there im trying to figure out if i can just slip off the brake drum or breakdrum/clutch assymbly without removing the entire bevel gear shaft with it. Pictures show the entire thing being removed. Im just worried about lining up the bevel gear back correctly upon reassembly, seems complicated. Would be nice if there was a bit more detail on all these procedures.
The reason I asked did the oil smell of sulphur was just on the off-chance that someone had filled the case with an EP Gear Oil instead of the TO-4 Powertrain oil that should be in there. EP oil smells of sulphur and does weird things to all sorts of things, including brake & clutch friction materials. If you have the bevel shaft out it's a simple matter to open the clutches up. Is it worth calling the person you bought it from and ask what oil they put in it the last time it was changed..?
That's a little odd the 955 uses a gasket and a 931B calls for silicon gasket maker on the clutch covers.
Im pretty sure he was using the right oil, he was telling me about it and i know he was getting it from one of the local equipment shops and he also had the maintainence manual with the oil specs in it, i think he said he was using sae 30. I could call him if needed, he was a nice guy. About that gasket material, looking closer at it, it does have the actual gasket but it looks like the gasket was glued on with some kind of gasket maker. It does look like it would be easy to pull everything off with the whole bevel shaft out, but will it go right back in without having to do all that backlash adjustment and bearing shimming and whatnot?
Provided that no bearings or gears are replaced, I would say that no bearing/backlash adjustments would be required, although my mate TC Tractors might disagree with me. You could consider removing & reinstalling the shaft assembly yourself, then have a local shop pull the clutches off for you and press them back on afterwards. TBH going that far into the asembly there would always be the question mark over what state the clutches were in. A test for the steering clutches could be done if you have a level grass area 50+ yards long. Drive the machine in a straight line and mark where the tracks end up. Reverse back to the starting point. Travel forward a 2nd time and press one steering pedal just far enough to release the steering clutch on that side. The machine should turn in somewhat of a slow curve. Again mark where the tracks end up and get back to the start point. Repeat the test using the steering clutch on the other side. Mark where the machine ends up and compare the "deviation" measurements. If they are pretty much the same then the clutches are probably OK.
Ok i did the test. When slightly pushing the left pedal, the one that works, the machine steers off to the left a good amount. When slightly pressing the right pedal, the broken side, the machine just goes straight just like the first run without pushing the pedals. I followed this up with another test i thought of. I burried the bucket in the ground and put it in 1st gear and opened up the throttle to spin the tracks. I then slightly pressed the left pedal, left track stopped spinning. Then i slightly pressed the right pedal, right track kept on spinning. What i think has happened is that something happened to cause the right clutch to not disengage(still undetermined). The previous owner at that point had continued to use the machine slamming on the break while the clutch was still engaged causing it to eventually blow out the break pad. Thinking i need to start tinkering with the steering booster clutch releaser thingy on the right side, or possibly do an oil pressure test. What do you guys think?
It sounds to me as though the right steering clutch is not releasing, and as you rightly point out the previous owner probably burned the brake out trying to get it to work. If you find nothing definitive on the steering clutch booster pressure test it's looking increasingly likely that the right steering clutch may have to be disassembled to find out why it's not releasing.
Trying to hunt down a cheap test kit. Would the pressure test show if the seals are blown in the steering booster on that right side? Would like to confirm the right booster hyduaulic is operating before taking apart the clutch plates. Wonder if there is a way to take off the steering booster and cover and filter assembely and suspend it above the clutch housing and press the pedals to see if both booster cylinders are opperating?
I went out to look through those top clutch covers to see if i could see the clutch release mechanism moving while pushing the pedal with the machine on. I could not see them move, but i could hear the hydraulic oil going through the booster. Upon releasing the pedal on the good side i could hear the distinct noise of fluid flow being shut off. The bad side i could not hear anything when releasing the pedal. Im thinking there must be a seal blown out or something on that right booster side.
Ive been busy digging into things, i got everything off all the way to the steering booster so now i can take a look at things. The break pad appears to still be intact from what i can tell. However something is not right with the lever that the steering booster pushes on. Look how much further away the lever on the right is. There is so much more play on that side, just feels loose when i move it. What could that mean? So maybe the right steering booser seals are still fine, it just wasnt making any sound because it wasnt getting any back pressure from the clutch springs?
Look at the different lengths on the adjusting screws. Despite the fact the lever on the right is way further away, the adjuster on the right is screwed at least 4 turns further in than the one on the left. Is there any chance someone has been in there before and got the alignment between the arm and the shaft out by 1 spline when reassembling..? If that's not a possibility then it's a case of keep digging.
I dont think anyone fiddled with it but cant say for sure, would have thought the previous owner would have said something but you never know. Got to keep digging to fully inspect the breaks anyways so ill keep going wiht it.
Before you pull anything more apart see if you can get a read on the angle of the arm underneath relative to the one on the top. see the illustration below. In your photo are Items 1-8 among others, but note that there is another arm below (12, 30, 32, 32). It's kinda visible in your photo but not well. Another thought. Ypou said the brake band looks pretty weel instact. I wonder if that friction material you found could be from the steering cltuch discs and you have a major mechanical hernia in there that's not allowing the clutch to release..? Keep digging I guess. Where's tctractors when you need him..? He'd know exactly whats wrong with this old girl.
oh too late ive been out there working. All i got off was the booster so far though. I have found one broken part for sure now. Its the nut (2) that retains the bearing cage and yolk (5). It looks like the threads it was screwed on snapped off. This does explain the slack in the lever. Nut is pushed left out of view in first picture and pushed right in second picture. Some good news, my break drums appear to still be smooth.
Those levers do appear to be at the same angle on both sides so i do believe they are on the correct splines. You might be correct about the clutch material, actually i think there may be both clutch and break material, the break pads look to be intact but i can see parts of the edges chipped off. And the oil was very dirty and got me thinking it may be more clutch material related than break. Can anyone tell me if these clutches start wearing down, will the machine only go when throttled up? I noticed the machine doesnt move unless i crank the throttle up a fair amount when in gear, dont move at low idle.
Its out! Anyone know if I can break this thing down with one of these https://www.harborfreight.com/20-ton-shop-press-32879.html
No, for two reasons IMO: - 1. The Service Manual calls for the use of adapters and a step plate. It would be extremely difficult to set up that Harbor Freight press to support the appropriate part of the back side of the steering clutch housing all the way around its diameter while applying pressure to the end of the shaft. 2. The installation procedure calls for the application of 15-20 tons to install the steering clutches. In that case it will require well in excess of that number to break them free for removal. The HF press is only rated at 20 tons so on paper it ain't big enough.
Well that sucks. I was having fun doing everything myself, going to ruin my video series i got in the works Guess ill have to take it in to a shop from here. Now that i can see everything, the break pads really dont look that bad, i thought they were chipped but i think its just grooves manufactured into the pad faces, i guess for oil passages. Did see one small chip but nothing major. Not sure why my break adjuster was clicking when tightening it, it does not click now that everyting is taken apart, guess its related to the broken nut. So if my dark oil isnt the breaks i guess it must be the clutches. So i will have the shop fix that broken nut and related parts as well as change the clutch plates and whatever else they find wrong with thier experienced eyes. Is it usually cheaper to buy the parts and bring them in or are shops usually reasonable?
Sucks when you don't have a shop fully-equipped with everything you need doesn't it..? Why not try to find a shop local to you that has suitable tooling and the capability to remove the steering clutches..? Doesn't necessarily have to be the dealer but it should be EXPERIENCED with this type of equipment. Then you take all the parts back to your place, disassemble the clutches yourself, determine what parts are required, procure said parts, and reassemble the clutches. The last step is to take the shaft assembly and rebuilt steering cltuches back to said shop and have them press the clutches back on to the shaft for you. There is no shame in not being able to do everything yourself when working with a piece of Yellow Iron. The real skill is working out when you need to call on outside help. Can't remember if I posted it, but Offroad Equipment are a good source of both OEM and aftermarket parts for your machine. www.offroadeq.com/
Yea i can never get enough tools, my mechanic tool selection sucks. Most my tools are carpentry related, but ive been getting into this mechanic stuff lately and need some better tools. Working out in the field and small junk sheds soon to be torn down once the new house and pole barn are finished. These videos take forever to upload, im way past this point now and 2 more vids waiting to put up.
Awesome video,, very entertaining.. I don’t know if you noticed, but the brake adjuster that was clicking was also twitching when it clicked.. I know you’re way past that now, but thought I’d mention it..
I cant remember where it was on my 955H but there were a bunch of coil springs ,like 15-20 ,that transmited power before the steering clutches .It's been like 25 years so I'm a foggy on details.
You mean #27 & #28..? There are 8 of each per steering clutch.
That must be it. Doesn’t seem right but that’s all there is.
showrguy, Thanks! And good eye, i did notice that tightener moving too. Still not exactly sure why it was doing that, but i believe it was related to that broken nut and the break drum moving funny on it as i tightened the band. The tightener doest click now that everything is apart. Still trying to hunt down someone to pull the clutches off the shaft, search not going so well. I might have to try to pull it myself at this rate. I did find a guy that was able to do it with the same harbor freight press, but he doesnt show how and his clutches are set up easier to press it looks like.
Lube up your shop gloves, i got more cat porn!
933 is a totally different setup to your 955L. Each clutch group is removed separately instead of removing the complete cross-shaft with the 2 steering clutches installed on it. Pressing the clutch drum off the shaft under those circumstances is much easier and requires different tooling.
I found a shop to pull the clutches off the shaft. Waiting for them to get it done.
If the shop is not already aware just make sure that they only slacken the nuts holding the clutches, not remove them completely. If you refer to your Service Manual you'll that see it tells you to back off the nuts something like 1/4" away from the clutch hub. If the nuts are completely removed when the shaft is pressed things can tend to fly long distances when the taper lets go.
That's a good practice anytime you are removing something on a tapered shaft!
With no idea of how familiar the shop that will do the pressing is with the task I just thought I'd throw it out there. Of course I may be way off base and discover they've done the job before.
Im assuming they knew that, but not for sure. I can ask when i go get them, they already pulled the clutches off. Im just waiting for after the holiday to go get them. I do know they have the manual and they have done them before, the guy seemed fairly knowledgeable about the 955's.
Got the clutches back from the shop. Got a pic to show what broke. Was wondering why this part would have broke, i know its under pressure when the clutches engage but its not a moving part so i would have thought it should have been designed to withstand the pressure. Possibly someone tightened up too much? I can tell they replaced the yolk on that side so someone had been in there working at some point. The manual gives specs for measuring the clutches to tell if they are still good. The measurement is 84.07mm +/- 1.02mm. My clutches measured (R) 86.5mm, (L) 88mm. Would have thought they would have measured under 84mm not over. Any thoughts on that? Clutches bad?
Aftermarket clutch plates and discs used in the previous rebuild..? Remember the spec in the manual only applies to OEM parts.
Ok thanks Nige, guess ill just figure on getting new ones while i got it apart.
It was only a thought, there could be other reasons. I don’t know if it’s possible for the friction material to swell if it is exposed to incorrect lubricants. Have a good look at the discs and try to find evidence of a Part Number. Also see if you can find a spec for a single disc or plate then measure the thickness of each one and compare it to spec.
Here's the info for individual discs/plates Thickness of one new friction disc assembly ... .165 ± .005 in(4.19 ± 0.13 mm) Thickness of one new separator plate ... .075 ± .006 in(1.91 ± 0.15 mm) Also back to your photo in Post #63 above. That 1V-3242 bearing cage has been pretty hot at some time in the past. Look at how the paint is discoloured. Is the other side the same..? It may be nothing more than someone heating it up to install a replacement bearing sometime in the past but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Not sure about the bearing cage, all looks ok as far as i can tell. I can also see that they heated up the nut that holds on the bearing cage to get it off, i had to heat it up also to remove the nut. I dont have the most accurate measuring tools to check the thickness of the plates, but with my crude tool the numbers i came up with were ~0.164" on the friction disc and ~0.073" on the plates. Visually they look like they have a lot of material left on them to me. For some reason on the left clutch there was one extra separator plate, there was two back to back in the middle of the clutches. That does explain why that side measured about 2mm bigger than the other side. Guessing someone screwed up. Clutches good enough to run? New set of aftermarket discs and plates will run me about $800.
If all the plates look like the one in the photo above I'd reinstall them in a heartbeat, minus the extra separator plate in the LH clutch though...... Measurement-wise you're pretty well bang on with both friction discs and plates.
Well thats good news! Ive been in contact with offroadeq for the parts, they found most of them but looks like they have given up looking for some of the other parts so i just ordered a parts manual from servicemanualpro to hunt everything down.
Just a thought. Check the clutch springs against the spec in your service manual. They may be tired. Replace if they aren’t up to spec.
To me, that extra plate looks too obvious to be an assembly mistake. More like a bodge to cover up a more fundamental problem, like a mismatch between used parts maybe? A careful examination of parts and part numbers is warranted before reassembly, I think. Edit. That may be a sacrificial plate that should have gone on one end of the clutch pack and has been assembled in the wrong order. Have you given the final drive input pinions a shake to see if there's any excess wear in the bearings?
It seems strange that the LH clutch pack measured approx. 1.5mm more than the RH one and that's pretty much bang on the measurement of a separator plate. I guess the $64k question is why..? Like CM mentioned, it seems too odd to be an error but if somebody installed that extra plate deliberately what were they trying to cover up for because according to the OP all the individual plates & discs appear to be pretty close to specification..? It begs the question what else might be worn..?
Maybe the springs (post #71) are weak and the extra separator plate was put in there to compensate..? Really to test the springs they need to be put in a compression tester, but I doubt the OP has the facility to do that. Check and report on the free length of the springs, outer 108.4mm, inner 83mm, as a first step. Here's an interesting factoid........ in the 9K0714 Steering Clutch Gp. for machine Serial Number range 85J4672-4862 the Parts Manual calls out 14 friction discs and 13 plates. In the same Group for Serial Numbers 85J4863-Up the number of plates increases from 13 to 14. I can find no announcement explaining why this change was made, or even where the additional separator plate is supposed to be installed. NOTE: The quantities of discs & plates listed below are for both sides of the machine (2 steering clutches).
Now I'm even more confused. Looking at an even higher Serial Number range of 85J the discs have now increased to 15 per clutch, but the specification of the overall thickness of a clutch pack under compression has stayed the same at 84.07 ± 1.02 mm ......!!
And then the description of how to measure clutch stack does not seem to make sense: "Clutch pack dimension (measured across the teeth of the outer disc assemblies of an assembled clutch) ... 3.310 ± .040 in.(84.07 ± 1.02mm)" I'm thinking the "disc assemblies" refers to the discs with friction material applied to them and all those I have seen the friction material is above the surface of the teeth, or am I reading that wrong?
OK, found a Service Mag article. Not that it makes things 100% clear but read on ........ and here's my 2c FWIW. The specifications for measuring a clutch pack are with it assembled and compressed by the springs. So in the original build of 14 friction discs and 13 plates with a friction disc at each end you supposedly had to make a measurement over the outside of the friction material of the last disc at each end of the stack. Not exactly easy when it's assembled ....... So what it appears Cat did was change the measurement method to a much easier one where you simply measure from the outside of the teeth on the last friction disc at one end to the outside of the teeth on the last friction disc at the other end. You would not be measuring the thickness of friction material on the outside of the last friction disc at each end by doing it that way. When the number of separator plates changed from 13 to 14 and then to 15 I am assuming that the additional plate(s) would be installed on the outer ends of the stack and therefore would not affect the "outside of tooth at one end to outside of tooth at the other end" specification, because the additional separator plates would be installed on the outside of that. In summary - I have NO definite idea how many separator plates should go in that clutch. If I go by the book for the S/N it's 15, so in the absence of any information to the contrary that's what I'm going with. Looks like the OP might have to buy 3 separator plates......... I show them at $65 each for OEM. Anyone have any opinions that maybe an lesser number (13 vs 14) of separator plates in the RH clutch might have had something to do with the failure in the operating mechanism..? Too little or too much movement maybe..?
Any updates ?? I’ve really enjoyed following along with your project..
I have been following on youtube! I really enjoy watching. I have a 955L also.
Oh wow, sorry guys i hadnt checked back here in a while, got busy on other stuff. Thanks for all the thoughts and information everyone. I have measured the inner and outer springs. Inners look good but a number of the outers are on the low side measuring around 106mm. The part where the clutches hook up to the final drive felt ok Cmark. Nige im thinking they must have made an error and mixed up the number of disc and plates, my parts catalog calls for 28 friction plates and 30 metal discs. That should be 30 friction plates and 28 metal discs imo. From an engineering standpoint i cant see any way they would design a metal disc to be on the end in contact with the metal of the hub, metal on metal slip contact = not correct imo unless there is something im not understanding here. Should be metal>friction>metal>friction.... all the way through imo, not metal>metal,>friction>metal... Must be a mistake. Im going to stick with 15 friction 14 metal per side unless someone can convince me otherwise. I guess I should get some new outer springs though.
If you are replacing the outer springs then I strongly suggest that you replace all the inners as well, even though they may appear to be within spec. False economy not to IMHO. By machine Serial Number the online system (the Parts Manual you have may not the the latest update) calls for 15 discs and 14 plates in each clutch (see post #75 above), and if the machine was mine that's what I'd be installing - no ifs ands or buts. There should be little relative movement between the outer edge of the outer separator plate on each end of the stack and the metal on each side so I would have no problem with metal-metal-friction at the outer end of the stack and friction-metal-metal on the other end.
Ok i will get all new springs, that sounds like a good idea. Im still not following the clutch deal though. Those inner and outer metal hubs are what applies all the force on the stack of clutch plates. All the torque force from the clutch engaging and disengaging should be abusing both faces of those hubs equally as the rest of stack of plates. In the dry clutch setups, they even go so far as to make a special friction disc for the outer contact point, suggesting to me that not only does it get lots of abuse there, but it may be getting more abuse at that outer contact point than between all the other plates (see vid below).
933 is a different clutch setup to your machine. We've been through that before. Also it's a wet clutch just like yours, not dry. The difference between the outer friction disks and the inner ones in the 933 is the difference between Rayflex friction material and F37. I'm going to consult an external source about the number of plates and why they are called out in different qunatities in different S/N ranges of 955. Hold hard until I get back to you with some definitive information.
I talked with a guy that specilizes in selling rem clutches http://tractorparts.com/ He said he couldnt ever remember selling a set of clutches that had more steel seperators than friction discs. He looked up what it called for and found the same thing we are finding about the extra seperators on the outside and said it was odd but just go with what it says. It just seems strange to me.
I went out to study the parts to get a feel for how the mechanics of clutch opperate. I noticed something. If the seperator plates were on the outside, on one side the inner teeth of the seperator plate will not connect with the splined hub, it just slides right through a gap. Does that seem right?
Here's the deal on the number of separator plates required in a given clutch. N.B. Using this measurement method the LH & RH clutches on the same machine could end up wtih different numbers of separator plates in them. Comment: I seem to recall that you measured the stack thicknesses before, but I am not sure whether you measured them with the discs & plates fully compressed. That will make a significant difference to the measurement. 1. Take 14 friction discs and 13 separator plates for a clutch. Assemble them in a stack with a friction plate on the outside at each end. 2. Compress the clutch stack in a vice or by using G-clamps until it's tight, the same as it would be when installed in the machine and compressed by the springs. 3. Measure the thickness of the stack from the outside edge of the teeth on the friction disc at one end to the otuside edge of the teeth of the friction disc at the other end. Effectively you are measuring the total stack thickness minus the thickness of the friction material on the outside at each end of the stack. The specification is 84.074+/-1.016mm. 4. If the stack thickness is within the specified limits, install it "as is". 5. If the stack thickness is less than 83.058mm (lower limit), add a separator plate to the middle of the stack somewhere, compress, and measure again. You can add no more than two additional separator plates in the middle of the stack to obtain the required thickness. If two additional separator plates do not give the required stack thickness, the clutch needs new friction discs. 6. If an additional separator plate has to be installed in a clutch it can stay in the middle just like the one clutch stack was when you disassembled it.
Thank you Nige, that makes sense. The measurements i had previously took were under compression from the edges of the teeth, not accounting for the friction material on the outsides. But my stacks had 15 friction/14 seperator in one, and 15 friction/15 seperator in the other side so that measurement probably isnt what we are looking for. My clutches measured (R) 86.5mm, (L) 88mm like that. We were also discussing not knowing if these were aftermarket discs which might/might not have a different measurement from cat. Ill get some measurements of 14/13 in a stack for each side. So either way your thinking i shouldnt exceed 14 friction discs?
Go back to the previous page and take a look. Every one of the three parts lists I posted show 28 friction discs (14 per clutch) no matter how many separator plates (13, 14, or 15) they show - so 14 friction discs per clutch it is. I hadn't twigged to the fact that both the stacks you removed had 15 friction discs in them. My bad. Thinking out loud I wonder if someone added an extra friction disc in each clutch to make up for "tired" springs..? We'll never know for sure but even more reason to replace both inner and outer springs if that was the case. Also I didn't realise that your measurements were taken with the stacks compressed, so they are relevant, but......I recall you saying that you were not 100% confident in your measurements. I think that maybe you need to invest in (beg, borrow, or steal) a more accurate method of measuring the stack thickness. Getting the numbers as accurate as possible is somewhat critical.
If I may butt in here: The way I'm reading the Cat procedure they are staying with the "stock" 14 friction disks and using what they are calling "separator plates", the plain plates, to obtain a predetermined "stack height" for the assembly. Too thin a stack and you might risk the piston that applies pressure to the stack stroking too far and leak at the seals or with too thick a stack it would not release clean and drag I recall in some, I believe, Allison Transmissions they did a similar thing but in those they actually had more than one thickness "Spacer Plate" and you had to select the proper assortment to give you the desired "stack height".
My crude measuring tools i believe are getting me within 0.25mm accurate. I see what your saying, 14 plates it is. I stacked up 14/13 for each side, clamped them, and measured from the outside teeth of the outside friction discs. One side came out 81mm. One more plate got it up to 83mm. The other side came out 82mm with 2 added plates(this was the side with the extra plate originally). Im thinking maybe i should just replace them all.
Based on those measurements you’re probably correct. However bearing in mind the parts prices you mentioned earlier wouldn’t getting a second opinion using some potentially more accurate equipment make sense before lashing out all the cash on new parts.? Do you have a machine shop close by.?
Come to think about it if you could get hold of a 0-1" micrometer why not measure each disc and plate individually and then just add the numbers up to establish the stack thickness, just remember to deduct the friction material thickness on the ends of the stack. You wouldn't have to worry about compression in that case, and you could use your measurements to compare with the specification for an individual plate or disc. This might help to determine if the friction discs are under-thickness, either from wear (on the face of it they don't look worn) or possibly because they are aftermarket. Possibly even the separator plates might turn out to be below the minimum thickness measurement. All you would need is a piece of paper and a sharp pencil....or maybe one of those new-fangled calculators. Thickness of one new friction disc assembly ... .165 ± .005 in(4.19 ± 0.13 mm) Thickness of one new separator plate ... .075 ± .006 in(1.91 ± 0.15 mm)
Ok, ive been wanting a micrometer for a while anyways.
At the prices I see on Ebay for used Starrett Mitatoyo, or Brown and Sharpe I can't see not having at the least a 0"-1" micrometer in the tool box. One nice thing about a 0"-1" is you can know right off if they and you are accurate just run down to the zero and see if it reads zero! I would try to find one that did come with the little spanner wrench as that would allow you to fine tune it at the zero setting. There are a few wrenches listed there too so might have to order that separate.
One of my first tools purchases in the 1970s, a set of decent Mic's still have them.
Interesting bit of Drama here I see, the clutch plates in steering packs can often be a mix on CAT equipment with e.g. out of 15 friction plates 5 can be sinter and 10 will be paper, the sinter (Rayflex) plates always go to the bottom of the stack, all plates should be placed in oil before assembly, on picture #85 it clearly shows the Vee slope on the inner hub, this slope makes the clutch "Self Energize" giving a forced clamping effect to the clutch pack, at the bottom of the Vee the plates are allowed to move a larger amount than at the top, this is the reason that sinter plates are used in this location, some time ago the clutch packs were a lot thicker and the drive was directed through the spring pins this was changed to the Self Energizing style on the early D8 2U at Serial No 2U 21513, the screw type ramp forcing the disc's tightly into engagement, its not un-common to have 2 steel plates together inside a clutch pack placed mid way in the stack, the work ahead is to find what caused this damage to your inner flange, bent Cross Shaft? or incorrect assembly? anyhow I can tell you to improve your lifting sling skills as you will struggle to re-assemble things, try placing a D link into the 2 yoke ends after removing the pull rod and use a sling to make things easy, also undo the bearing adjusters well off to save any damage to the pinion on re-fitting. tctractors,
Thanks for the insight Tony. While waiting for the OP to get some accurate measurements of the thickness of his friction plates and discs, and irrespective of the number of separator plates in the clutch - What are your thoughts on 15 friction plates in each clutch where the manual only calls out 14..?
On the amount of plates in the pack I would be more inclined to try and reach the measure Spec' that is to firstly see with the correct plate count the thickness of the stack, a digital Vernier caliper is best for this as CAT tends to change targets with Total over all or outer tooth to outer tooth, this made it very important to read the Spec Form for a correct tolerance, it always gives the new and allowable minimum, the springs I don't mind changing on little clutch packs as the are not costly items and its common to find a few that look a bit knackered, the fun with this job is when the hub is pressed back on the cross shaft as it really needs a bit of tooling to do it justice, if the press target is 15 to 20 ton I would stick to the low limit as the hubs hate to be put back on and will split, the release bearing needs every care to ensure the thrust side is correct, but you still have to find out why it ended up torn off????? tctractors
The spec for this one is 84 +/-1 mm outer tooth to outer tooth. He has 15 discs/14 plates in one pack and it measures 86.5mm. He has 15 discs/15 plates in the other pack (extra plate sandwiched in the middle) and it measures 88mm Even removing the additional plate from the 2nd pack would only get it down to about 86mm. So both packs are over-spec by about 1mm but if the number of friction discs are reduced to 14 (which is what the book says it should be), even with 2 extra plates sandwiched somewhere in the middle as permitted in the spec both packs are going to be well below the minimum spec of 83mm. That's the dilemma as I see it. I think it's either micrometer or digital vernier time and get some accurate measurements of each disc and plate.
This is the best place i have found to get clutch plates. Best pricing. http://www.steeringclutch.com Also when your ready to rebuild your track tensioner i have a setup I built to be able to compress the spring with a 20 ton jack. If your close to me I can help you do it! I had good luck getting those parts from american crane supply in kansas city.
I would tend to think the extra 1mm is not going to hurt any and stick to 15-14 disc total, as long as they stack tidy on the hub (friction first then steel) it should be fine. tctractors
If Tony is happy with going with 15/14 and it being slightly above the max specification then you should be fine. A question for you. Was the side with the extra separator plate in the clutch pack the same one that had the broken thrust flange by any chance.?
Sorry for the long delays guys, I had to get back building my house. I got a 1" mic and took some measurements. All of my plates were within spec, most averaging in the 0.074 range. (spec- 0.075 +/- 0.006) All the friction discs on one side were at, or slightly below spec between 0.155-0.160 (spec- 0.165 +/- 0.005) The friction discs on the other side(broken side) were all within spec averaging around 0.165 Im thinking im going to buy new friction discs for one side unless advised otherwise. I am more inclined to get it back to the correct number of plates within spec of the book. And also get new springs all around. Do i need to get new nuts for the throw out bearings? They drilled between them and the hub and inserted a set screw to keep the nut in place. Can i just redrill them or i guess reuse the same hole when i put it back on? Nige the extra plate was on the side that wasnt broken and the good friction discs were on the side that was broken. Still no idea why it broke. Workshoprat92 thanks for the advise and offer. Im up north of St louis, would be a haul. I got a 20 ton press, would be interested in seeing pics of what you did and how to do it. I thought i heard something about guys putting a pin between the sprocket and track and rolling into it to compress the spring. TC i had got advice from another guy to take all lubricant off the splined shaft and hub when pressing it back on to avoid it going on to well and cracking. My press is 20 ton, not sure if i should give it all its got when i put it back on. " the release bearing needs every care to ensure the thrust side is correct" can you explain what your saying here
Opinions are like a$$holes, everyone has their own. So FWIW here's mine: - 1. I'd put a new set of 14 friction discs in what was the "broken" side, and reuse the 14 "good" discs in the other side. 2. The plates look like they will all go again. Replace individually as required if you find any of them are warped or badly blued. 3. Now here comes the complicated bit. 14 discs @ 0.165 + 13 plates @ .074 comes out to 3.285" (83.44mm) but that includes the thickness of friction material on the plates at the end of the stack. I reckon that even with new discs, 13 plates will only give you a stack somewhere around 3.272" (83.11mm) which is right on the bottom limit of the spec and any wear on the friction discs would soon have you below that. An extra disc @ .074 on top of that ought to get you right on the max spec of 3.350" (85.09mm) 4. So based on your measurements and the Cat recommendations for rebuilding the clutch packs I would reassemble both packs with an extra separator plate stuck somewhere in the middle, just like the one that you pulled out, only on both sides. That means you'll have to buy at least one new plate. 5. New nuts for the throw-out bearings will be a small expense on top of what you're planning to buy, Why skimp..?
Parts are ordered. I will be back working on it soon.
I need to get some oil to dip the friction discs in and also to refill the steering clutch compartment. The book calls for CD/T0-2 SAE 30 Found some locally for a reasonable price but im not sure if it is the correct grade. Will one of these work? This one says SN https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-diesel-engine-oil-sae-30-5-gal This one says CF-2 https://www.tractorsupply.com/tsc/product/traveller-heavy-duty-sae-30-motor-oil-5-gallon
TO-2 is an old spec of power train oil containing additives for friction materials (steering, transmission, brakes) and the like. Can you get some SAE30 TO-4.? That’s the more modern specification. That’s what ought to be in the transmission anyway so it wouldn’t get wasted.
Napa has that. Not thrilled on the price though, will need about 27 gallons for the steering clutches and transmission https://www.napaonline.com/en/p/FHQ85305 What is everyone else using?
They are sure proud of that.
Have a look around. Often there are offers on oil/filter joint purchases at the Cat dealer, or the oil supply houses. TBH I wouldn’t entertain Parts store own-brand oil in my machinery. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - good quality oil & filters are the best insurance policy you’ll ever buy for any machine.
I got the clutches reassembled. That went ok, took a few attempts to figure out how to line up the outer teeth so the brake drum would slide over after the springs were put under tension but i figured it out. I have started pressing the clutches back on the shaft but ran into an issue. I got it in the press ok and gave it all she had but Im not sure it seated far enough down on the shaft. The book gives a measurement between the drum face and shaft shoulder around 1/8". My gap was a hair over 1/4". Am i looking at this right?
IMHO you need a bigger press.... Effectively you have to get the drum about another 1/8" further on than it is right now.
Thanks, thats what i figured. The press i got is 20T but its from harbor freight so.... I hope a chunk of funk didnt get on the splines before i put it on there, i cleaned both sides off but i dont know. I took it back up to the shop to have them put it back together.
Thinking a bit more about it, it might be better to press the drums off and start again from scratch with a bigger press because the load it takes to move a drum that is already tight on the shaft can be more than what it would take to press it on to the shaft from a "slack" state, if you get my drift.
And there is the chance there is a bit of crap or burrs that you did not notice before.
Yep, it always pays to buff the bejasus out of the splines with some wet & dry before putting it in the press.
Speaking of "buffing splines" wonder if it would help if I buffed my spine, some days it does not flex too smooth! And no comments on buffing other body parts. I know how sick some of you can be!
Sick? Whose sick!!! We all just have Dirty Minds!!
Do they make a spine lube?
Dont buff your spline or you will go blind. Update: bad news The shop cracked both hubs pressing them back on. They got it back together now but want to charge me $1800
WOW, just WOW.
Back together with the same cracked hubs or with replacement (non-cracked) ones..?
They got new ones. They did give me a bit of a price break but still sucks. Its been all snowy and cold out here lately, not sure when im getting back on putting it back together. Hopefully soon
Really hoping for a video of you running the damn thing after all this work.
ha! Me too! Been really busy trying to get our new house ready to move in before christmas. Might be a little bit before i get back on it.
Back from hibernation. Ready to get back to work on the cat. Im trying to wrap my head around what i need to do to get the bevel gear/shaft back in the machine properly. Pretty sure ill get in there ok, but getting it tightened up correctly and backlash and whatever else is concerning me. Any words of wisdom would be much appreciated.
Ok how about a different question. Im working on rebuilding my tilt cylinder. Got the shaft pulled out and working on taking off the big nut on the end, it is a 3 1/8" nut. It is stuck pretty good on there. I got the other end of the shaft pinned back to the machine so it cant spin. Can i heat that nut with a torch? It looks like it is a giant lock nut, i can see plastic in it on the end so i assume that will melt under the torch. Suggestions?
What other equipment you have around? I used my backhoe to push on a 4 foot pipe wrench to loosen the nut/bolt
Cut a wrench out of least 5/8" plate that you can put a 6' or longer pipe on. Mark the location where the nut is before removing it. Maybe a shop that does cylinders near you is still open and could loosen and tighten it for you??? 3 1/8" nut is likely going to be 1200 ft./lbs. or more and will need over 1500 ft./lbs. to loosen it. I don't think I'd heat it, it's just really really tight!
Thanks for the suggestions guys! I guess i will keep the heat off it and try again. I had already cut a wrench out of 1/4" plate but it was bending. Guess I will try something thicker and could use the tractor to push it. Problem with this specific nut is that it is situated so i can only get about 1/4" of the plate wrench down on the nut, i would really need a socket to get into the cavity to get a better bite on it. If i got to buy that big heavy duty socket and breaker bar i might just see what the local cylinder shop would charge to do it first.
i did my tilt arms before i used a large pipe wrench ,it will scar the nut but not too bad, also horror freight has a 1" dr set that has a 3 1/8" socket i believe , i lend you my socket but i need it i the up coming week, that nut was a bugger too break loose, try some thicker plating looks like your getting there
I didnt have a pipe wrench big enough. I was successful at making my own wrench/socket thingy however. Isnt pretty but it worked, used the front end loader on the tractor to push it. Now i got a new issue, getting the head pulled off the shaft. My cheapo harbor freight puller stripped out on me. Guess i will try to fit it in the floor press.
Seems odd the head is so tight.
Just looked them up, the rod is tapered, so going to need a bigger puller. Maybe some heat
Will take close to thirty ton to pop it loose, will sound like a cannon going off when breaks free..
Curious why Cat would do that and how do you get it back on? Have to take it to a Cat dealer?
Wonder how far it jumped when came loose!!
Yea it popped pretty good, scared the crap out of me and my dad. You can see my makeshift tractor drawbars are blown up and the head came off the press plates. Glad i had the shaft tied in that ratchet strap. Big Boom! Unfortunately i think they sent me out the wrong seal kit, it only came with one seal assembly for the head but mine requires 2. Think i found the one i need.
Looks like i am suppose to use bearing mount 7m-7456 and a primer 6V-1541 for the wiper seal so i guess i will order that too.
I'm finding for cylinder 7J9637 Says for tilt cylinder it list 3 seal kits, maybe someone else can figure out which one is which 242-2542 (maybe full kit) 243-0385 (maybe rod end) 243-0386 (maybe cap end) Seals 5J5020 need 2 ea Bearing 4J4630 need 1 each
A tip for next time. Back the nut off just a couple of turns instead of removing it completely. Then when everything finally pops under the weight of the press there is less chance of having flying parts.
the kit that they sent me was 242-2542 and it was short one of the seals. Was talking with offroadeq and they think it is an updated part and for some reason the kit doesnt come with 2 seal assemblies so i ordered another one. The new seal assembly is different than the old one so hopefully it works ok. Thanks for the tip Nige, will do next time for sure.
Parts are in now. I got the wear ring and seals on the piston and about to start putting the seals in the head. Got the primer and sealer the instructions say to use for the wiper seal. Seems easy, should have no problem there. Have a question about getting the piston back on the rod. I couldnt find anything in the manual about this. Do i have to press the piston back on the rod before torquing down the big nut, or can i just set the piston on the rod and torque down the nut?
Should just have to tighten to the correct torque. If Cat wanted the piston to be pressed on before tightening the nut they would have put that in the manual along with how many tones of pressure. Just be sure the torque you are going by is for the correct cylinder, in other words one with the tapered shaft. Also I would be sure to have the piston and the ram clean and dry especially in the tapered area. Any lubrication there could possibly cause a problem with piston going on too far or even splitting.
No, the piston does not have to be pressed on to the taper on the rod. I would suggest to set the piston in boiling water for a few minutes. Then simply drop it on to the taper and tighten the nut. Last step would be to install the piston seals. I hope you took on board an earlier suggestion to mark the position of the nut relative to the rod before removing it..? That makes it so much easier to get it back in exactly the same place as it was before when no torque tooling is available.
Thanks guys! I did mark the nut and rod before i took it apart. Great advice!
Thing is if you expand the piston just a hair before installation you won’t have to pull anywhere near as hard on the nut to get it back to the same place it was before because you won’t be having to press the piston into place at the same time.
And while the piston will expand some in the boiling water it won't be near enough to cause any problems. And the water should evaporate and not cause any problems for the seals already installed, just let it cool down before slipping into the cylinder.
Makes sense it would be easier. You are thinking i would not have to remove the seals? Im worried about boogering up the rubber backers getting them back out of the deep grooves they are in, they didnt go in real easy... As far as torquing i was planning to use the tractor to push it again, so pushing force isnt really a problem, my only concern would be my homemade wrench holding up.
Suggest place in an oven about 350* Use welding gloves and lay in place then tighten nut. Once cooled install seals
If you heat up the piston in boiling water the piston seals could stay on. When I made the suggestion above I did not realize that you had already installed them, and if installation was a struggle then I would suggest not to risk anything by trying to temove them again. Let's face it the oil temperature in the hydraulic system normally runs at close to the 100 DegC mark anyway, so hot water won't affect them. Just make sure that everything is well dry before you install the piston/rod assembly back into the cylinder barrel.
I got that cylinder back together fine. Been straightening up all the sheet metal and now working on some electrical issues. Got the hour meter working now. Replaced a bunch of corroding wires and bad terminal connectors. The starter ground was loose, cleaned that up and tightened it down and it starts much stronger now. Having an issue with my charging system now. I dont think it is charging. The amp meter doesnt move negative or positive at all. I tested the meter, it is still good. Is it suppose to go negitave while starting, not sure why that type of meter is there? The batteries are sitting around 12.3 when its running, seems like it would be higher if the alternator was working. Manual is suggesting the belt, brushes, connections, or rotor. Also, does anyone know what this is, there is what appears to be an electrical terminal on it but nothing was hooked up to it. There is a wire below it that may have been hooked to it. It goes into the guage area but wasnt hooked to anything. Has a part number 6N411 on it. This is 3304 motor.
Oh nevermind about the alternator, it is working i just had to up the rpms to get the meter working, still wondering what that other thing is though if anyone knows.
Should see 14.5V on each battery when running, and get about 28V off the alternator Fully changed bat which has sit off charging for an hour should be close to 12.7V
That's a test connector used when setting the governor. It shouldn't have anything attached to it.
It's not hooked to anything it's used to set up pump governor . Bob