Do you think this has anything to do with it?
That's a tier 4 pump. Saves fuel , air , the environment.
50% fuel consumption reduction. Guaranteed.
Were you able to find a new pump Don ?
Not as yet, I am working on it. It is unlikely I will find a "new" pump. Maybe I can find a used pump that works. The machine shop wants over $600 to make the two gears.
That's pretty steep on the new gears . But cool that they could make them if need be . Don't know if Minn-Parr could come up with a pump ? I might even look at retro fitting a Detroit diesel charge pump if all else fails . They are plentiful.
Yeah, thanks. I did check Minn-Parr and a dealer in Columbus that has some new old stock. I've got a couple of e-mails outstanding, waiting to see what they have for used. My initial thought on failure was to convert to electric. The trouble I have with any conversion is the lack of specs on the existing pump. This pump feeds the injector pumps and charges the torque converter. There is an internal relief valve in the pump body. The only specs I have are pump speed and pressure. Good tip on the Detroit Diesel pump.
Don , we may be close on this Detroit / Allis pump theory . Look close at the pictures . top picture is 53 series Detroit and bottom one is out of the Allis Chalmers HD 16 manual . Both have the 3 bolt flange . Look pretty close . My fist dozer was an HD 16 AC . had the fuel torque convertor like yours . Loved that tractor ! I should have some spare Detroit charge pumps , I'll look in the morning .
I've been looking at drawings on the internet re. Detroit Diesel fuel pumps. The mounting flange looks to be very close, if not exactly alike. The most revealing picture on the matter is the gasket sold for the pump. I am just getting ready to see if I can find some technical drawings on the Detroit Diesel pumps. I see some of the pumps have square drive coupling that looks very much like the Allis pump. The 16000 engine is 844 cu in so I'm thinking I can get a pump for an engine that exceeds that size. The internal relief on the Allis pump blows at "47-60 psi". BTW, I remember our conversation on my first post. I thank you again for your kind assistance on that matter.
Don , I 'm going to yank a pump off a spare Detroit 71 series in the morning out of curiosity ? That has to be the same pump body . We hardly ever sell any equipment . One of my biggest regrets is when we soled the old Allis cable blade HD 16 . Damn good reliable rig !
If I can confirm the mount is the same, I'll solicit some technical details from a retailer. One of the places I read said the pump runs at 65-75 psi. Distance between bolt hole centers is about 2 1/2". The diameter of the round shaped bump out on the flange is around 1 43/64" and stands proud by about 3/64". The input shaft drive is 5/16" square. All flow regulation through the system is performed by orifices. Going from memory , now. The injection pump sump runs at up to 20 psi and the torque converter runs at up to 30 psi. Normal fuel pressure on the gauge is 40-60 psi. Minimum gauge pressure is 40 psi. The pump runs off the back of the accessory drive at 2X engine rpm. That equates to about 1000-3600 rpm, max no load speed will be up to around 5000 rpm. I'll have to look up rotation. I know if the pump mounts to the top of accessory drive, rotation and speed are different.
I think we have a winner Don . Found a good diagram of a series 92 Detroit charge pump .
The AC gears are 1/4" wide.
Here is one I pulled off an old 6-71 engine . Look close at it and stand your pump body up just like mine and make sure the relief valve boss is on the same side (yellow arrow). If not you will have to go with a left hand drive pump from my understanding . The measurements all sound good except for the diameter of the round bump out flange ( red arrows) . Mine looks rite at 1 3/4 inch . Gears look to be 1/4 " thick from what I could see looking through the port .
DieselPro.com has the repair kits for the Detroit pumps for $53.00 which includes gears, seals, bearings, shaft, coupler, etc. Also have the complete pumps for about $50.00 less than they are locally here.
That would be a good option as well old-iron-habit . I'm still trying to figure out which pump Don's dozer uses . See , Allis used two different pump drives on the engine . Older style mounted vertical and newer horizontal . Book mentions the relief valve boss on opposite sides between the two pumps . That leads me to believe one is left hand drive and other is right hand . Pumps don't look to bad on price if we can be sure it's correct direction and " bolt's on " . http://www.detroitdieselpartsdirect.com/Detroit-Diesel-71-Series-Fuel-Pumps
td25c and old-iron-habit, 1 3/4" is good, mine is slightly over that. All other aspects represented in your picture match that of the pump I have. The relief valve discharge port on the AC pump is plugged, excess fuel is routed to the torque converter. Otherwise, excess pressure is routed internally to the pump supply. The manual confirms that the direction of rotation for the pump that mounts to the back of the accessory drive is CCW (viewed from input shaft) which is the same direction as the Detroit Diesel "right hand" rotation. I have been looking at the DieselPro.com site and there is a "high capacity" rebuild kit for the 71 and 92 pumps. I wonder if that is the 1/4" gears? A rebuilt 71 high capacity pump for 12V71, 16V71, 12V92, and 16V92 engines is available for $99. The 12V71 two cycle engine has 852 cu in displacement, comparable to the naturally aspirated 16000 (844 cu in). The 671 is 426 cu in. http://dieselpro.com/detroit-diesel-fuel-pumps/12v71-fuel-pumps/detroit-diesel-5199734-fuel-pump-right-hand-rebuilt.html#.Vja7XrerRhE I'm going to try and call them tomorrow and see what they have to say. I'm thinking we may go that route.
The pump internals are identical, it is the housings and couplers that differ. The pump that mounts on top of the accessory drive unit rotates in a CW direction (viewed from the input shaft) which is equivalent to the Detroit Diesel "left hand rotation". The coupling is similar to many of the Detroit Diesel pump couplings. That pump also runs at 2.5X the engine RPM, whereas the pump that mounts to the back of the accessory drive operates at 2X engine RPM.
Any thoughts on the naturally aspirated vs turbo/blower engines with regard to fuel consumption considering the need to charge the torque converter?
Don , dose your pump look like mine ? HeavyEquipmentForums That's my understanding as well on the pump internals being the same . What's interesting is on my pumps the relief boss is cast on both sides of the housing but only drilled & machined on one side .
Yes, they look essentially the same. It appears, from the drawings, porting is the only difference between the two AC pumps in question. I'll get you some pictures today. I need to draft an e-mail for technical support and I have work to do today so I'm kind of rushed this morning.
Here ya go.
I agree Don , They look to be the same pump . PM me an address or P.O. box number and I'll throw mine your direction .
I appreciate the offer very much. I took the options to the owner today, he is preferring a new pump. He is my brother-in-law. I'm still waiting on technical info from the vendor. If you ever want to feel like a pariah, try to talk obsolete equipment to vendors. :beatsme I have half a dozen e-mails open with various people on the subject. I was worried my e-mail server wasn't sending so I e-mailed myself at another server and a couple of other people just to confirm my e-mail was working. Just me and the crickets.
I would go ahead and grab the new pump as well for brother -in-law . Mine came off an in line 6- 71 Detroit that was originally in a road truck . I read a little further in the Detroit manual and the relief is 65 psi . Detroit had two pump sizes , one had 1/4 " thick gears ( most common) . Other was high volume option that had 3/8 " gears . Most of the battle is just getting to the rite parts guy that will take the time to look it up .
Indeed. The AC manual says the relief valve is only there in the event of a blocked filter, not for pressure regulation. I'm thinking about going over to the local Detroit Diesel shop and see what information I can get. If the gears are the same thickness and diameter (1 1/8"), the volume and pressure (given the same input rpm) should be the same. If they have a rebuild kit for the 671 pump, I can measure the gears.
Just looking through replacement parts listings, the part numbers for pump, rebuild kit, and gasket are the same for 53 and 71 pumps (RH standard capacity). This leads me to believe that capacity and pressure ratings are a function of input shaft speed. Accessory drive output speed.
I ordered the 671 pump, p.n. 5199561. I'll give you the details later.
I called over to a local power equipment service center who can deal in Detroit Diesel. They didn't have a rebuild kit in stock for me to look at and indicated there isn't any demand for it. So I didn't get a chance to look at the gears before I purchased. I told my brother-in-law I'm 90% sure this pump will work. We've already confirmed the mounts are nearly identical, the housing looks the same, pictures of rebuild kits show the same parts, close inspection doesn't give rise to any obvious differences, rated pressures are close enough given different applications, there are no pressure regulating devices in the AC. If I get an itch over the 65 psi relief valve setting, I'll just take the spring out of the AC pump. I am just very confident over the matter. Purchased the pump through Diesel Specialists, LLC: http://www.dieselpartsdirect.com/detroit-diesel-71-series-fuel-pumps $183.89 USD including shipping. Total cost was lower than DieselPro.com When I get the new pump, I'll get some side by side pictures and have a good look at it.
Okay, we got the pump today. The new Detroit Diesel pump came with a mounting gasket, 3/8 x 1/4 NPT reducing bushing, and two 1/8" NPT plugs. I've done a side by side comparison. The mounting is identical by comparison. There are three ports bored for return lines, an additional plug will need to be installed. You can see the new pump housing has some minor dimensional differences. Orientation is the same.
The inlet and outlet ports for the relief valve are smaller in the new valve. This would indicate flow will be restricted when the valve is fully unseated by comparison. High pressure side (pump outlet) is on the right. The machine is in the field so when I get time and the weather cooperates, I'll install it and see how it goes. I'd like to disassemble the new pump and have a closer look but flirting with the devil is ill advised in this situation. We just have to see how it acts when I get it in the tractor.
That looks like a winner Don ! Make sure to change fuel filters also . Made in Mexico ? Getter bolted up & show us a picture of that 16 bowin smoke & pushin dirt
Since I crunched one of the gears, I need to replace the filter and clean the line. Made in Italy.
I put the pump in today. It went in like it was made for it. I have to fabricate something for the filter housing so I probably won't get to run it until next week. The plate that holds the filter up tight eroded/corroded away. Completely. Parts are N/A.
I ran it today. The pump puts out a steady 65 psi, the tractor is rated for 40-60 psi. I suspect I am on the relief valve. I'll know more after I watch it. The system is regulated by orifices and the gauge reads pressure after the second stage filter, essentially system pressure. As long as I don't blow a seal, I'm calling this a win. td25c is the man! Just so you know.
That's great Don ! Your thread sure brings back memories for me . My first dozer was a 1956 Allis HD 16 set up much like yours only it was cable blade . Bought the tractor as a project , after some wrench turning we used it quite a bit around farm and on jobs . Really liked that tractor , done everything we asked of it . Take good care of that 16 Don .:thumbsup
Thank you for making operations possible.
Just a follow up. The pump is definitely on the relief valve. There is a spot in part throttle where you can see the fuel gauge needle jump around, reflecting the action of the valve unseating and seating. Anything above that point, pressure goes to max 65 psi and holds. Full throttle loaded and unloaded, the pump holds right around 65 psi indicating that the system is not starved for fuel. There is no increase in smoke from the stack but the new pump corrected a small problem in fuel flow to the torque converter. I had to bleed a small amount of air in that part of the system on occasion.
I went out for pictures today. Pump installed and gauges with machine at unloaded full throttle.