Every now and then I see an article about some incident of "age discrimination." Some company, somewhere, will lay off their older workers while retaining the younger ones, or some older person in search of a job laments that they can't find anything, while it seems that younger job seekers are getting hired. It got me to wondering whether age discrimination is a factor in our industry. I always kept in the back of my mind that if I had to go looking for work (meaning being on somebody else's payroll), that I could fall back into a laborer's position if it became necessary. Indeed, I've done a few jobs over the years that were pure pick and shovel work, with no machinery involved. Some years ago, I'd have told you that if need be, I could make a living doing that. These days, I'm sure I couldn't, at least not for very long. I can still hold my own jumping off the machine and doing some hand work, and if you plant my behind in the seat, I'll happily dig until the cows come home, but I know I couldn't do manual labor for 40+ hours a week. (At least not at a pace where I'd feel I was earning my keep.) That having been said, I've known a few non-operator types; carpenters and masonry guys for instance, who've just kept on doing it, well into their late sixties and even beyond. Another factor to consider is that technology is changing the way even the machinery works. We've seen some comments here about Cat's M series graders, for instance, and the suggestion that the video game generation is better equipped to pick up on the new style of controls than the old hands who are used to that literal forest of levers in front of them. Computers, GPS, and other high tech stuff is another change that's getting bigger every year. Old guys may have developed an eye for grade over the years, but may not be so ready to hand over responsibility to a little black box somewhere. When the equipment stops working as it should, so much troubleshooting relies on higher technology too. So, my questions are sort of an invitation to an open-ended discussion. Do you percieve that there's any age discrimination in the industry as it exists today? Is there any reason for there be be any? (For any of the disciplines involved--operators, laborers, technicians, etc...) Do you forsee that it will become any more of a factor down the road? If you were/are in the position to hire and fire, would you have a preference that was influenced by the person's age? Let's hear your 2 cents worth...
Here it is from a young guys stand point...I am 23 years old, a Field Mechanic for a Komatsu dealer, and have been in the industry for a little over 4 years. Bottom line is the young guys would not be worth squat if it werent for the older guys passing on their experiences and methods. My shop has recently let quite a few techs go due to loss of work. We went from 10 Field Techs and 3 Shop Techs down to 3 Field Techs in just over a year. I was kept, along with a very experienced tech in his 50s and another tech in his 40s. There really was no sense to be made of how they picked who stayed and who went. My boss has only hinted to me on occasion that he kept the guys that stood out as go-getters and let the others go even though they did not do a bad job. Having gone through training at my previous job as a CAT mechanic and a vast amount of training in my current Komatsu dealer i can honestly say training is great, but it does not compare to actually working with someone who knows what they are doing and has been doing it for many years to teach you the rights and wrongs and different techniques. I certainly hope that discrimination is not a completely common practice in our industry either the age being too old or too young. I myself have not had much more crap from the older guys other than saying they feel old because they have kids older than I am, but on the other hand I have always been a hard worker and get alot of respect from my co-workers for that. My .02...
I think in some instances it may be true that the older folks get discriminated against. I know of an equipment rental company that recently released all of the older, more experienced help, and kept only the young. That was a case of money. Most of the young sales reps were making much less than the guys let go. That seems to me to be a no return bet. I for one have stopped using their services now that I am called on by a know nothing kid instead of the experienced rep I used to deal with. In my case, it is not how old or young you are, but what your skills are, and most importantly, what your attitude is. There is no replacing the experience in the field.
Age was never a factor with me, young or old. Years ago most of the good shovel and dragline runners and finish blade hands were older than the average skinner. A good hand for me worked as safe as possible, didn't abuse the equipment, was never late for work, called in when sick, paid attention during safety meetings, didn't party all night and then come to the job and would follow instructions. We have all had to put up with wise guys but sooner or later they would make my day. Most of my work was on union jobs so you have to be sure you have a reason to tramp somebody, not just because you don't like his hard hat.
How much time do you have???? How do you prove that your age is a factor in not getting the job? I have seen it over and over but I am not going to cry about it,just got to suck it up and move on.I had to take my social security to survive,of course the job market is not good and hasn't been for a while now.If things ever turn around I am ready to get back in the seat again.I could probably find a job driving but I would be miserable without a doubt if I had to do it as a steady diet. Discrimination is alive and well but again,how do you prove it and how much abuse do you take before you admit that it is a fact of life?I have gotten old and it is time to move over......all that I have learned over the years is a waste....what a shame.Ron G
Once expierence as much as respect has been earned,that can never be taken away or replaced.A good manager will recognize the benefits of having his best people on the job in any trade.The pay scale arguement does not hold water with me because to replace a higher paid and more expeienced tradesman w/ a lower paid one effects their bottom line.What they save in payroll up front does not come back to them in production at the back.I have nothing against younger tradesmen learning from and putting their time in along side of an expierenced tradesman.I think that in today's structure,we lose sight of what is important and how it came about.I was always taught to never forget where you came from and the people who put you there !The need for Money has replaced Loyalty and respect for our more expierenced people in the industry.I would agree that age discrimination is alive and exists to this day.
I hire according to ability.Laborers I can find anywhere.Usually but not always,the best operators are older men that have been in the trade.I don`t have time to teach a guy how to process materials and make it pass moisture and density.An old hand that has been around knows how to... There was a time when I could swing a pick all day and still go strong after 10 hours. In 2005 I fell off a 950 Cat loader and hit the bottom step with my rear.I herniated two disks.Epidural injections,chiropractor,etcetera but it still bothers me. I was in a gunners strap in Iraq in 2008 when the driver hit a KBR tractor trailer,added to that injury and left me flat on my back for nine days. I`ll still grab a shovel if I need to,swing a sledge hammer setting bluetops,yank up a plate compactor and throw it on the pickup..but dayum it hurts a bunch compared to when I was 22 and stronger than a bull ox...
Finish Blademan Thank you for your service Finish Blademan
X2:usa
Thanks gents.!
X3 thank you for your sacrifice, sir!:usa
thanks D5! Gene
i think it goes both ways for the age wise, some like me who have worked hard on labour job in other trades during high school cant get a labour job or they are hard to come by because of a bad rap that other morons have left behind which is now beeing acted upon in times of a poor econemy.
First of all, I also would like to say "Thank You" to Finish Blademan for your commitment to our great nation! The age discrimination issue is a touchy subject to address. Many of the companies still in business today are faced with high health insurance premiums for their group of employees. Much of this is driven by not only the amount of claims paid out, but also by the average age of the group. If a company has a high average age group, their premiums are simply going to be higher. Along with that, a higher average age usually means more claims. ( I am referring to health insurance only. ) Several years ago, a friend of mine whom is the owner of a successful business, relayed to me that he had laid an employee off for this exact reason. Do I agree with that? ABSOLUTELY NOT! As was stated in an earlier response to this thread, I feel it to be absolutely essential that we continue to employ the elder members of our group. Set aside all of the new technologies, such as GPS, and electronic engines, etc., etc., we still need the advice from our elder co-workers. THEY are the true operators, mechanics and business owners. What is the most dis-heartening, is when I hear them say " I'm here because I need the insurance".
It's a great topic. I don't know how you would be able to go about proving that kind of charge unless someone was stupid enough to say something in front of other people. In my experience when I started in the business there was no question as to who got laid off when times got bad. The young guns always got sent down the street. I used to think that was pretty tough as most had young kids at home, usually a car payment and many times a house payment on top of that. What many lacked in intellect they more than made up for in brawn. Now days I don't think that is the case. I see many young guns still working while a bunch my age are in line at the unemployment office. I guess I get hit either way. The jobs have changed though and now they require the intellect. You have to be able to troubleshoot an engine one minute and pound a track pin the next. A cutting torch jockey doesn't have a place anymore. I've run into too many my age that didn't feel they had to learn how to type on a computer. Now they have someone fill out their unemployment application on line. On the other side I'm starting to see the Nintendo generation come in and they don't want to work. They just plug the computer in and get someone else to do the dirty work. Technology has changed and along with it the kinds of skills needed to work with it. I don't think it is necessarily a problem of young and old. More of who is going to commit to life long learning.
Life long learning is certainly the key JohnC which is why HEF is such a great sight. There is plenty of information available here. It also makes you think about a ton of things that you hadn't previous to reading the posts here. It encourages you to seek further information on all sorts of topics. Inquiring minds like to know!
Dang, I thought it was for all the humor! Actually I too come to learn and share the little bit of knowledge I picked up over the years. If was not for the old timers to show me the ropes I would have caused a lot more damage and suffered more bumps and bruises than I did. As for age discrimination, I trained a whole crew of machinists for the new technology at a major company. They paid me extremely well but after 3 1/2 years I was let go for those making $20,000 a year less. No big deal as I still have all my stock they gave as a bonus and even today it is worth double+ what it was when I worked there. There is a lot to be said for slowing down and enjoying life!
What I see is this: Young guys in their late teens to 20's- either the most johnny on the spot kids, or completely unteachable. Instant experts with technology, doing it the "old" way is percieved to be the "hard" way, until they fall on their face, then ask to show you that "hard way" trick again. The new guard for certain, they are legion. Older guys in their 30-40's- (my age group) good hands coming of age, totally unloyal to the company (my buddy even called the BA on his dad, an O/O!) but wished they could work for the same place for 30 years, just like dad did... Tired of waiting for all the older hands to retire to move into better positions. Can handle technology better than than old guys, and have a foot in both worlds, unlike the newer guys that seem a bit spoiled with newer machines. Retirement is a faraway dream. Old timers 50's-65+ - can run circles around you in the oldest POS in the yard, versus anyone in a newer machine. Can eyball a grade to 1/10th from the top step of a machine 50yards out, but can't read a manual without cheaters! Computers and machines don't mix. Probably been working for the same outfit longer than you've held a card. Can't wait to retire, just one more year...next year...knows every trick in the book, feels spoiled with A/C or an enclosed ROPS. Will tell you every time how bad he used to have it way back when he ran a cable machine, ran a loader with more levers than tires, or an open cab during the 77 blizzard.
And we don't care what we run either!!!.LOL.Ron G
Interesting points........I will say however, in defense of the younger generation, I currently have 3 young men, (2 in foreman's position's and one as an operator) whom range between the ages of 24 to 29, that I wouldn't trade for anybody. All 3 of these guys are top notch and very good at what they do. If our work requires that we start at 5:00 am and keeps us beyond dark, they are there when we need them. If I am off to a bid letting or required to be at a meeting, they can go it on their own. One of the additional benefits is that they are young enough to adapt to new technology, yet each of them has "been around the block" enough to know they will be asked to run equipment that is older and are able to perform the task when they are called upon. I am in my mid to later 40's. I learned alot from the genrations ahead of me. They taught me everything I know, and I wish some of them were still around to call upon. I hope that our 4 Sons, ( ages 15-26) as well as these three guys will someday be willing to say the same about me.
I think that being of the older generation as a mechanic I am still quite a valuable asset if I could just figure out how to get up off the ground once I get down there!
Supt it's a good find you got there! Like I said, nothing against any one group, just some observations, and some of the younger guys are really hyper-motivated. I've met more guys that are in their early 20's that are homeowners now than there were when I was in my 20's. Youth definately does help on those long days. I can remember staying up too late when I was young, getting 3 hours of sleep, and being able to pull a 12 hr day shoveling stone no sweat and do it again the next day. Now I'm in bed on a work night at 9:00.
Did heavy industrial construction mainly in steel mill melt shops for some 20 years. Assembled melt shop equipment, checked it out and started it up. Struck out on my own 20 years ago in excavating when steel mill stuff died. Guess what now. The last two years the excavating has sucked but all of a sudden the phone started ringing from the steel mills. As they told me, they need somebody that knows how to do the heavy mechanical and hydraulics that none of the kids can or want to do. Seems they just want to sit in front of a computer screen. So, I am back in the mills doing what their own people can't and won't do. Needless to say I get pretty much what I want for it too.