Not here to chat much, but I thought some of you might find this info of some value. Last year the owner Father and Son bought 10 Freightliners with air disc brakes over my rather strong protest. They were both sold on the high wear factor and service by the sales force. Told the average mileage before needing pads was 400 to 500,000, {BS}. So far that isn't happening the best we will see is about 220,000 average. And so far I have had to change out one set rotors and pads, plus three more tractors with pads only. Those ranged in mileage from 113,000 to 134,000 miles on the first set. Now the cost of new parts for Wabco air disc. Rotors-175.00 each, one set of pads does one axle 165.55, wheel seal 30.00 plus gear oil. If you need a caliper also----1,300.00 per caliper. Now the cost of new shoes and drums, Shoes-34.00 a set, spring kits 5.25, Drum 73.76 Time to do a complete pad and rotor change 1 1/2 hours per corner if your good. Time in our shop to change out all four corners of shoes and drums, 1 hour one guy. The technology has gone in reverse, the industry got away from inboard drums 40 years ago, with disc it went right back where it was. Now I know someone on here will throw the safety card out about brake fade with drums and that by having disc it gets rid of that safety issue. Fact is if you or your drivers are having brake fade with drum brakes you and or your driver probably need to learn how to drive. The average mileage our drivers would get with drum brakes was 350,000, some as high as 525,000. And some of the drivers have admitted because of the slightly shorter stopping distance with disc brakes they have found at times running up closer in traffic. Those who like them live east of the Rockies, But air disc isn't worth spit in the mountain states. In the photos below are some pads and rotors with 113,000 miles on them, And some new rotors. New pads are roughly 7/8" thick, One brake shoe has enough lining to roughly make four brake pads. And one more note-with drum brakes you will see smoke when hot-not with disc. Loose an air can on the caliper and it will just grind the pad down to nothing in nothing flat.
Very interesting, I have no experience with air discs, never thought it was that great of an idea. Remember the old Louisville's with the air over hydraulic disc brakes on the steer axle? What an overcomplicated joke! They work ok but just don't last. Nowadays the parts are getting hard to find for them and damn near break the bank doing a full job.
My only experience with disc brakes were the juice brakes on the C5500 GMC's at a previous shop I worked at. The service truck mechanic (who I helped out from time to time) told me we were lucky to see more than 5,000km out of rear pads during the muddy season. I'm not completely sold on disc brakes in off road applications as of yet.
I agree 100% with you Truckshop. They have been around for years but I just don't really see them catching on. Too costly to repair. I had a pretty good argument with an air brake instructor about the merits of air disc brakes. His final answer was "They are coming, so get used to it" I know in the logging industry they would not last at all, the dirt and crap from the roads would eat them up.
The only advantage I have heard from the local truckers is that they don't freeze up when parked in the winter. Still at that they may be way more costly than a hammer.
That is a standard reply from the people on the upper rung. My reply I tell them is {who is the customer, obviously not you}. The buyer has the power if they would only use it.
With all the electronic equipment in the cab of a truck these days plus things like air disc brakes and the main feature is disc won't freeze up. The corporate people are making truck drivers even lazier than they already are. It's such a miserable and demeaning job to have to get off your butt to knock the frozen drums loose with a hammer, they are trying to gain weight not lose it.
What is one pad , 15 maybe 20 square inches. Compare to a shoe, almost 100 square inches. 1/5 the contact area. No thanks. Added maintenance. Don't the slides have a tendency to stick ? Or was that the earliest design. S-cams are better than wedges, no one will argue that. I don't think this was an advance. I agree with you Truckshop, I think we took a step back with air disc.
By ***k those discs and pads have been warm...…… The only way I would personally entertain dry discs is if the vehicle/machine equipped with them was also running some sort of driveline retarder (probably built into the back end of the transmission) capable of absorbing 3000ft. lbs. or (preferably) more of torque, plus a compression or an exhaust brake. And if you have the driveline retarder and the compression/exhaust brake, you can forget ALL about brake fade whatever braking system you use, because the service brake will only be used for bringing the vehicle to a dead stop from maybe 5mph.
So do all your new trucks come from the factory with air disc only, truck shop? Or is your company ordering them that way to save weight, or is that the only thing freightliner is offering in your particular "package"?
The last 25 ordered have disc, as far as weight savings it's minimal, and yes you can order drum brakes. But like I said earlier sales force. Phil Swift here with disc brake in can! These tractors are all equipped with the DT 12 automatic transmission, which I am not a fan of automatics in trucks. Makes a lazy driver even lazier. Fact is there is not one driver who hasn't admitted that he uses the service brakes more with the auto trans. The new rigs are a pile of gadgetry, so many modes to operate. My favorite come back to people who have never been on a creeper or even know what a creeper is. A small or large fleet owner will hand the keys to a person just hired to drive or is a steady hand for ten years. The keys go to a $160.000 dollar tractor pulling a $80,000 trailer, loaded with a $75,000 dollar commodity. The driver has the average 10th grade education. The owner of said truck also owns a 2019 Corvette-do you think the owner is going to throw the keys to his Corvette to one of his drivers? --------------Hell no.
You forgot to add the extra tire wear we discussed last week.
Theres not much built after the 80s that is good new tec. Puting a computer on a engine could have been a great leap forwared but its went the wrong way. I meet drivers some times and think he must be good behind the wheel cause he is worthless other wise.
The computer wasn't bad... it's the emissions junk that it runs.
Correct! The other issue I've noticed is tire wear. Same drives tries we always run have dropped in mileage about 12 to 14,000 less. We run Goodyear 399 steer tires that averaged 105 to 110,000 miles. We will be lucky to see 90,000 miles I believe. Shorter stopping distance means the energy went directly to the road. For every action there is a direct and opposite reaction.
No driveline retarder option available then I take it..?
All our tractors are equipped with engine jake brakes. But because the rpm is usually on the low side when cruising over slight down grades {rolling hills} at 65 mph the jake is not very effective. That is the down side of lower rpm fuel squeezing engines. The jake becomes less effective at highway cruising speed. On a 6% 6 mile long grade say running 45 mph in 7th at full jake rpm of 2100 rpm you should only touch the brake pedal once maybe for a corner with a gvw of 100,000 lbs. And that is set in manual mode with the automatic trans. Almost three weeks ago I had to tow one of our rigs, truck and trailer loaded down whats called Cabbage Hill on I-84. The grade is 6% and 6 miles long total GVW including tow truck was 128,000 lbs. at 27 mph, running the jake at 2000 to 2100 I used the brakes four times with a application psi of 15 lbs for control. I had 6 axles worth of drum brakes, three on the tow truck and three on the trailer. None on the tractor hooked to trailer being towed, never had an issue and didn't expect any.
IMHO they really need a transmission/driveline retarder in addition to the Jake. We had a fleet of Scanias equipped with Scania's own-brand driveline retarder in addition to an engine brake. The great thing about them being the fact that because the retarder functioned on the transmission output side it was totally independent of engine RPM, only on ground speed. Another plus for the retarder was the lack of noise, so you could use them anywhere. Basically you could dial in the retarder going downgrade and if you needed extra braking effort either apply more retarder, engage the engine brake, or tap the service brakes. In my experience 100% retarder application running at Max permitted GVW would just about bring the truck to a dead stop. This may have had a detrimental effect on tyre wear but I don't have any numbers. Either way we were more than happy with them.
The Volvo articulated trucks have retarders in the trans. Its incredible how quickly they pull you down to manageable speed. I don't know if that tech could be implemented onto road trucks, don't see why not. These things act like how Nige described, the heavier the load, the higher efficiency. I could totally see it eating through drive tires . It would be more betters if it would lock diff locks and power divider in before beginning the retarder. Just my 2 cents.
No reason why not. The Scania's I'm referring to were on-highway units. https://www.scania.com/group/en/a-brake-with-history/
Cat had the engine oil operated retarder and coupled with jakes it was a powerful. I ran one set up that way years ago. You set the jakes first then applied the retarder manually with so many lbs of air pressure to activate it. About 30 lbs air pressure with jakes on a 3406B and it would control just about anything behind it. I know in a few cases where it snapped the input shaft on the front drive.
Retarders were available in the US for a long time but have for the most part been rejected by the industry. Trucking is low margin so most of the companies I was associated with way back when would not put up with the weight of the units nor the extra cost to purchase and install them. I used to see them once in awhile on all terrain cranes.
Amazing the different perceptions of "truck retardation systems" (I include everything from wheel brakes to engine brakes to transmission retarders in that category) on opposite sides of the Pond. In Europe you'd be hard pressed to find a long-haul truck without it being equipped with some sort of driveline retarder. They may even be standard equipment now.
Given the emergence of more electrically powered units I would imagine these would be capable of putting the resultant energy back into charging the system Seems very efficient
I think the biggest difference is tight twisty and multiple hundreds of years old two lane highways in Europe compared to multi-lane high speed freeways in the US. I'm sure the economic atmosphere of each side of the globe also have a lot to do with it. Margins have alway been thin here and the weight of the retarders can get turned into revenue for extra cargo that can be carried.
Garbage company had some trucks equipped with telma driveline retarders , 4 stages of braking dependent on brake application pressure and auto shut off at 15 mph. Those trucks brakes lasted considerably longer and were alot easier on the foundation components also, down fall is they are a heavy unit and a bit costly when they get tore up.
One of the quarries the company had not far from here had a very steep haul road coming from pit on one side of a public road then up the other side to the primary crusher with a 90º left turn at the bottom. Haul trucks were 65 ton Mack Off-Highway trucks with 16V71 Detroits and DP8000 Allisons. Brakes were air over hyd. wedge drums, which even were working good were barely adequate! But the hydraulic retarders on the Allisons would hold those fully loaded trucks to a walking speed down the grade. This worked fine till the one day one of those -40 hydraulic lines from the retarder valve failed at the top of the hill!
CAT Brakesaver was one heavy SOB. Plus they always seemed to leak. I know a guy who had the jake and Brakesaver and he claimed he could lock up the drives on his tridrive easily with both when loaded on wet roads.
The 3408 with brake saver was real powerful. And one trick was to use a complete 3408 retarder on a 3406. but you couldn't put more than 50 psi air pressure to it because the oil cooler was smaller on the 3406. The 3408 stator would heat the oil real fast. But yes the Cat retarder was a few lbs.
Resealed a few of them on 3406's, mostly "A" models. Made my own tools to support the rotor when it was off the engine flywheel housing. It really sucked when you had to pull one just to replace the starter ring gear. Grrr.
I don't think I'd do the disc brake, but I can see the owners point of view with the auto's. They just want to haul the most loads from point a to point b, and with today's shortage of drivers, the auto's open up more of the field of possible drivers. I'm not saying I want a auto, but I'm not in the freight hauling game.
I think the biggest difference in hauling from U.S. to europe, is the distances involved. In europe, going all the way across germany, is like driving across part of texas. "long haul" has a little different meaning in england vs. here. The freight game is so razor thin in margins, the big fleets save every lb possible, because it adds up to quite a bit of freight hauled for 100 or 500 trucks everyday. Hence the trend of "super singles", lighter axles, lighter cabs. Driveline telma brakes are heavy. Nobody is adding that in, unless they have to have it, or that the weight or mileage doesn't matter- which is why you see the telma's on fire equipment, and some AT cranes. They don't care about mileage or weight.
Im no truck driver, just a guy that needed a truck for projects. I bought my 86 Kenworth with a 3406 in it up in the Kootneys about 6 years ago. The first thing the seller warned me about was dont use that brakesaver too heavy youll burn the seals out of it. my wife and i took in on as a holiday trip (i have a very good wife) ,drove up in the pickup bought the truck and lowbed. We loaded the pickup onto the lowbed and headed home. Gently crept down hills like Blueberry Paulson and the Anarchist being passed by B trains of lumber like we were standing still . Stopped at the bottom of the Paulson summit to check things out, not much oil left in the old Cat.Luckily i had lot in my toolbox in the pickup. That Brakesaver worked awsome, but buyer beware it was toast when i bought it.To this day i havent had the time of the cash to repair it , so the truck stays close to home on flat ground.Long story short id really like to have the brakesaver , a jake ,but no discs. I appreciate the the advice in this thread.
European trucking is a bit more "long haul" than you think. Lots of European trucking companies will do runs from the Western end Europe (e.g. Ireland, UK, Holland, France) as far East as Greece & Turkey or as far South as Italy, Spain, or Portugal - even N Africa in some cases. That has the added factor of borders, customs, and ferry crossings. There is a lot of stuff posted on YouTube about it. Back in the 70's Western Europe to the Middle East (Iran, Saudi, UAE) was a regular run. Again there's some interesting historical video on YouTube.
Opposite end of the spectrum, we had to manage brake heat on fire trucks, all around drums, if you had a new driver that'd get excited you could end up with barely any brakes left before you got where you were going. We never had jakes or retarders on the early trucks in the 80's Cats and Macks. Now we've got 500+hp ISC engines with jakes and I can haul ass and never touch the service brakes even though they are all wheel abs disc brakes.
Automatics have there place in fire trucks, garbage trucks and so forth. The cost of a replacement 13spd is roughly $5,000 the cost of a replacement DT12 automatic is $19,000 and that is just for the transmissions no labor. The Eaton autoshift has a trouble shooting manual an inch thick for electrical issues. I can't even touch a DT12 the it's all proprietary info with Detroit Transmission. We have had two rigs laid up with transmission issues for over five weeks at a time at dealers {because the trans wouldn't talk to engine controls}. Good thing we own a tow truck, it's made close to 50 tows in almost two years. This market of trucks has been a windfall for towing companies. If the younger crowd can win 10,000 games of Tank Warrior they should be able to shift a manual transmission I would think.
One final note on brakes, retarders and auto shift transmissions. The trucks have become quieter, way quieter and coupled with automatics and the factor of disc brakes the driver has become dissociated with what he is driving and is lulled into a state of everything is wonderful so turn up that talk radio show. The tier two with manual was the last of the great ones. For instance a driver operating a 2000 vintage and older rig was still at the controls. If he runs the same route three times a month fully loaded he knows damn near to the yard stick where he is going to start down shifting on a grade. He also knows how well it's pulling when he doesn't down shift at roughly the same spot on the road. The driver is more in tune with his truck and what's going on with it driving a truck not a {glorified pickup}. IMO. Driving these late production trucks you may as well be driving a 75' suv.
This is no BS, last week I had a truck in for a bad tachometer. The driver couldn't shift without it... Really.
The only item that is standard equipment on a new truck these days is the check engine light is on from day one. And to top off the total foolishness of the manufactures most all OTR rigs will come with the Dale Earnhardt effect. When the rig reaches 60 mph it will automatically lower by three inches to create less drag when trying to catch and pass a J.B. Hunt, Fuel mileage garbage.
My neighbor has a experimental hydraulic retarder on the transmission of his Peterbilt in the mid 70s. He was in Alaska on the pipeline haul road from Fairbanks to the North Slope. He loved it but stated that it was heavy and generated a bunch of heat. Little to no brakes were needed on the downhills of the Brooks Range. Weight was not a problem on the haul road. After a year the developing company took it off again and he has never seen another.
Drivers with the automatics tend to use their brakes more downhill because they can speed up easier than one that has a manual that tends to drop it in a gear at the top and leave it I’ve got 284000 on this day cab and still on original pads and rotors it’s an 18 Columbia glider with a 60 series and 10 speed
I'm a little ashamed to admit I like the automatic in the F550, when pulling the excavator and starting off on a hill, I still start up all nice and gentle but the fluid takes the abuse not a clutch. On the big trucks its gotta be a bit more gentle on the driveline. What kind of failures are seen on the OTR automatics? the FD auto trans gets whipped, going from cold to full throttle and then up down and shifting all over, now handling braking torque and trucks have tripled in weight and horsepower. Haven't heard any firetrucks getting a trans change/rebuild but yes, most don't stay in service beyond 100k.
I would not agree with that. With the 3 position engine brake mounted on the steering column,.. Both hands on the wheel, ride the engine brake half way down the hill then flick the brake off with a finger and back to full fuel.
There are different types of otr "automatics". Some are simply a old gear transmission, that is electronically shifted and computer controlled clutch. Some are more like a torque converter - think old school allison. I don't know how the new volvo ones work.
The Volvo I-shift and Scania Opticruise are exactly what you say above, the shifting between speeds is actually done by air actuators but electronically-controlled, along with an electronically-controlled clutch. It was common for our Scania units to go 200+k and have no reason to drop the transmission for clutch work or anything else. The drivers were dead happy with them. We had the 3-pedal version with a manual clutch available if required for manouevring in tight spaces. There was another version that only had 2 pedals (no clutch).
Are you talking miles or kilometers?
Miles....
Average clutch life on a Eaton 308925-20 or -25 1850/2050 ftlb torque rated clutch is 550 to 750,000 miles. Average mileage on a Truck Shop rebuilt RTLO 18913 or 18 spd transmission is 750,000. Average price on one of my rebuilds for the company 3,200. Automatics have there issues in winter time, It's all or nothing on slick surface. When backing under a trailer with interlock engaged on ice or snow if the driver doesn't make sure the fifthwheel plate is at the right height any extra resistance and the drives even chained will dig to china at the drop of a hat. Unlike a manual that the clutch and throttle can be feathered the auto is go or no go whether it's and Eaton auto shift or a DT12. I spent many days and nights last winter driving a 100 plus miles one way to winch out our rigs because the local towing companies were to busy with other calls. I had a 65mile one way to Walmart DC in Hermiston Ore at 2:00 a.m. The driver chained all four to get into the lot and buried it to the housings hooking to a trailer. There were seven other rigs belonging to other trucking companies all stuck up to there *** in that lot. Everyone of them asking me to winch them out. Mean while three older tractors with manual boxes drove in hooked up and all drove out. The other seven that were stuck all had autos. DT12 auto below.
We ran the eaton autoshifts in our logging trucks. Try gently backing into a trailer with one of them. Damn things are on or off. We had creep mode enabled but you just cannot creep into a pintle hitch.
Had a local farm that bought 4 Freightliners with Eaton auto 10's with clutch pedals. Told them they were making a big mistake. Sure enough the "ahem" drivers burnt out the clutch brakes and 3 trucks suddenly will not go in to go mode. They were gone that season.
I had a buddy driving a 2-3year old mack auto shift dump truck. He said it was almost impossible to tailgate spread with them, because of the auto shift transmission combined with PTO. The same on/ off that you guys are talking about. No feathering, even with the "creep" mode. You would think that the engineers would know what the dump truck/ concrete placement trucks require in that regard, and design the transmissions/ clutch to do that, but that's probably asking too much.
Another issue is driving on compact snow and ice in total auto mode. Some early were designed with out manual mode. Pulling a grade and have it brake loose and try to shift or shift.
Had a service truck with a 643 Allison that would scare you to death on ice, sometimes the manual hold would get overridden by the governor.
I love anything that shows problems or the destruction or reasons not to run disc brakes. I hate them, there expensive, pads don't last as long as people say or manufactures say. One of our satellite based tractors just had a full set of pads replaced at a dealer, I love it when the boss Sh!ts his pants over a bill and something I told him not to buy. $1,204.00 for pads and labor That just makes my day and my point about air disc, the tractor pulls 80,000 lb loads and the brakes lasted 231,000 miles and what is even better is his uncle drives that particular tractor . If it had drum brakes we in the shop could have done it in less than an hour for $488.00 in parts with new drums. Sorry folks the disc just isn't what it's cracked up to be. We averaged 350,000 on a set of drive shoes. The owner just finalized a order to Kenworth Sales this morning for 5 new W990's with drum brakes, he's already had enough. Below is a fine example of running super single tires and having a chain come loose, it wrapped around the hub destroying the rotor and broke the caliper along with a few other expensive things. Now we all know the driver should have heard this and he is probably a moron but had that rig been running drums that wouldn't have happened, period. I hate air disc brakes, I hate air disc brakes, I hate air disc brakes! That hub and rotor are broke and I'm a happy guy.
I remember when they first came out in a big way 15 years ago, high prices and bad reliability. I wonder if it is like everything else seems to be, an effort to make what used to be standard drum brakes across every truck and aftermarket mfr. into something proprietary with a much better profit margin, and hoping that people with the checkbook say about stuff like what happened above "oh bad things just happen" instead of realizing how much money is getting lifted out of their checkbook because it happens more often and costs more to fix.
Guy with microphone. “So Mr Truck Shop, would you like to tell our audience what you REALLY think about disc brakes..?”
Why yes I Will. DISC BRAKES ARE NOTHING BUT OVER THOUGHT TRASH, THE MORONS ON THE 40TH FLOOR IN THE DESIGN DEPT WOULD LIKE TO VACUUM YOUR WALLET WITH THEIR SILLY *** IDEAS. AND ANYBODY WHO THINKS THERE GREAT ONLY OWNS A FEW TRUCKS OR HASN"T WORKED ON AIR DISC!----how was that?
Your right on target BV.
Aren't they like 1/4 or 1/3 the swept area of a drum set up. And they started using hub pilot outboard for quicker brake jobs back when. I'm with you. I don't see advantages.
Another time I was just a bit too late to the thread. As I was reading and saw the busted disk picture I was thinking of a remark almost identical to that one!
I wish I had a video camera to film a shoe change in our shop. With disc brakes wheel seal change outs doubled the time verses out board drum, But we use a wheel dolly for drum, average time for me to change a wheel seal even with a Hendrickson Max air hub with drum brakes 35 minutes. Air disc 1 hour 30 minutes, it's all inboard-remove the tires, remove the caliper, remove the air hub, install jack with hub stud adapter remove out board bearings and nut, remove hub then reverse and torque caliper to 500 ftlb torque on the mounting bolts. We went backward 45 years, not forward.
First job this morning at 5:30 a.m.. Tractor with 70,390 miles and right rear wheel seal leaking-2 hours. And this one has already had a rotor design change from the previous group of tractors 1 1/2 years old. Also you folks are going to need a 1 3/16 torque adapter to loosen the bottom caliper bolts [No room for large ratchet head and socket} Note the fine shape the surface is on that rotor and a new pad next to the inboard used pad for a comparison-nice huh.
A few more
And I had a standard, straight forward wheel seal to change on a trailer with drum brakes-30 minutes. Had it been disc-1.8 hours. Tractor has same basic set up except you have a axle to deal with. Also the air cans for disc are $175.00-a standard 30-30 air chamber piggy back my cost $32.66 .
3 steps backwards. So glad I'm not flat rate in the trucking industry anymore. That's a whole lotta extra BS for less efficient brakes. What a crying shame.
I agree FWF, not my kinda game anymore. We had the Chesterfield MO Airport Maintenance account, they had a 15,000 gallon four axle foam truck that MSHP/DOT would grant a Non Licensed Oversize permit Once annually to bring to the shop for work. That got changed in a hurry to four times annually due to the Early Bendix Air Disc set up, NONE on steers just on two drive axles and ATE THEM ALIVE, less than 500 hours and they were completely used up. Bendix paid us in the third year to replace ALL with Air Drum set up. Rotors lasted MAYBY 16 weeks, AT A AIRPORT!!! Beast had a 8V92 on a Allison, pump was operated as a Drive Line component, either trans or pump, not both. I am NOT sold on any OTR Air disc set ups. My late Father was in Military aviation, did not understand why never went to multi disc wet brakes as aircraft had, did not see such self destruction on those with seriously severe duty.
Wet brakes do last forever, the downside is, "outta sight, outta mind." You don't see em, you don't pay attention till something happens then it's expensive and usually destroys critical pieces. Definitely not practical for on road use.
I've taken apart wheel loader axles with 40,000 hours on them and the disks and frictions only showed minimal wear. The problem come when someone thinks they are paying too much for oil and use substitutes or will work brands.
Before the air disc came on the market a few years ago truck manufactures started installing 16.5 x 8 5/8 shoes #4711's with 3030 long stroke air chambers. Those were actually pretty worthless for a up grade shoe over the standard 16.5 X 7" 4707 shoes. Biggest problem was the shoe block bed/plate would flex way more with the extra width and the shoes would wear the center out of the brake block material. The drums would be convex with a big hump in the center full of hard spots. The standard 7" 4707 shoe actually lasts longer and the braking was no different between the 8 5/8" and 7"wide shoes. We have found the Gorilla 23K shoes get about as good life as it's going to get for our use.
One other note because of the new required stopping distance that was put forth trucks are not required to have disc brakes, and can still be ordered with drum brakes. But the interesting side of that is because with the newer brake block material drum brakes are meeting the required stopping distance anyway. And the new block material is becoming almost fade free.
Mike, I was just about to ask and I think you answered. Back when this nonsense came on the scene they told us discs were going to be necessary to meet increasing 121 standards. Or the extra wide drums or some weird stuff. But you are saying that it can still be done with standard 7" drums?
There is no requirement that I have seen or found {and I have looked high and low} for such in regards to shoe replacement after the originals are worn out and need replacing. I just went through a Stemco Wheel End and Brake re-certification seminar and I asked that very question. And the instructor only said as far as he knew that their was no requirement to install only 8 5/8" shoes with 8 5/8" shoes. If you installed 7" in-place of the wider shoe your ok because the stopping distance is negligible. How ever you can install the 7" shoe in the wider drum made for 8 5/8' shoes, but you need to look the drum over real well because it is probably worn with a convex {hump in the center} which will cause lousy contact area between shoe and drum and ruin a set of new shoes. We change drums out every time we shoe my cost per drum averages $66.00. It stops like new plus the DOT won't say a word about the condition of the brakes. DOT doesn't care how much shoe is in the drum what they are looking for is how close the wear limit indicator built into the edge of the shoe lining is to the original edge of the drum surface. If it's close or even it could be defective equipment time with DOT.
Had a carrier that would not allow us to replace any drum unless it was severely cracked. Grooves so deep you could place your fingers into. I adopted a new service program for when I replaced brakes for them . I would simply free the drum from the hub pilot with a 20 pound sledge. For some reason, they always needed drums. If bean counters are going to drive policy, we just have to adapt the policy. Of course this was back when disc was an expensive option on Paccar trucks. Q+ was the latest and greatest at the time.
Had a customer with an older 644 JD loader that called me regarding no brakes. I drained the diffs and they were full of 90wt. That doesn't work... Gave the diffs a flush of kerosene and a fill of JD hydraulic fluid and they worked fine again. 2 weeks later I get a call that it has no brakes again. Checked it out and it was full of gear lube... ***? Turned out the owner's 80 year old father saw me put hydraulic fluid in the diffs and just knew I was stupid (maybe I am) and changed the oil out as soon as I left.
The last several companies that I worked for all had the same idea when it came to brakes relines. Everything new. Simple. The companies got decent pricing on parts, I think the shoes were about 80 and the drum was 100, spring kits were cheap. All outboard drums so took nothing for time. Trucks had good brakes, the Commercial vehicle inspectors were happy, the loads were moving so management was happy. End of problem
Two 4707 shoes $18.22=$36.44, drum $66.00, hardware kit $5.44, total per corner $107.88, all four corners $431.52.
I always hated cheapskates on parts, got to a point I would give them the parts list and Suppliers I would use, they asked if could choose anyone else for price and I would explain could reassemble they could pay for estimate and take it elsewhere. NOT the way I would do the repairs. I also would not accept doing half now make the worn crap last awhile, they could drive that to another mechanic. Got really picky, got to where many would not come back until they could not get anyone else to scratch and patch either.
Way back just after the hippie age I had a fleet of four old Ford dump trucks built in the late sixties with 3208 engines and two stick 5 and 4 transmissions. Now these rigs never left town. They went out on about 5 miles total of city streets, maybe 2 miles of county road and the rest was on gravel roads. Brakes were done when I noticed the noise when they drove by my shop or someone saw the smoke coming from inside the duals. The owners in those days didn't know any other way but to scrimp and save anyway possible on parts. That always gave me nightmares of a runaway dump truck coming down the hill into the back of a car full of women and kids at the stop sign at the bottom. When I moved on I figured I would never again take any crap from an owner about top flight repairs on brakes and steering. Thankfully, I ended up back at a dealership keeping my hands in big iron from then on.
Inspected a worn slick and sick Corn Queen for a buddy a short time ago. Turned out to be an old county truck with maintenance records so was taken some care of. Cab was shot, salt cancer had full hold of it and I explained to him this would be a no buy unless he was interested in a cab buy and likely have to change the dump box in a year or less. 2001 7500 Workstar, no floor pans left, doors rotting heavily. He bought it anyway, has had five body shops look at it to estimate sheet metal repairs, None would touch it. He is now mad at me for not telling him was junk, go figure.
You can't make everyone happy, but it's easy to make everyone mad.
Tell that to a Manitou M50 forklift lol.
Yup. Wet brakes on off-highway trucks you have to keep a close eye on as well. I've seen job sites where the brakes were at the wear limit in less than 10,000 hours (hauling downhill loaded usually) where other job sites you could pull the wheel ends off at 20,000+ for wheel bearings and other stuff and the friction discs/plates would've been good to go for the same again. Some time back the factory came up with an Extended Life friction disc for downhill hauling and that put the problems to bed once an for all on the "difficult" job sites.
I had to look up inboard and outboard. I had never heard the terms and didn't know there were different styles. I'm also not a mechanic. Thank you for the discussion, I'm always learning more about trucks and heavy equipment.
Outboard drums were the ticket years ago, no need to pull hubs for every brake job sped things up and prices down considerably. Even if had a seal out was far easier to do that work without having the manhandle aspect of inboard drums or wheel dollies.
And you can add the fact of out board drums coupled with hub pilot wheels got rid of tons of problems and time. Changing wheel studs on stud pilot hubs was time consuming, and many hubs were screwed up because someone tried to hammer them in instead of pressing them along with using anti-seize. Tire shops are notorious for not using anti-seize on the wheel stud or the inner nut/thimble, wheel stud sales were pretty good in those days when it came to in-board drums. Plus the wheel stud actual size chart covered 4 pages of possible combinations depending on the age, make and axle manufacture. When it comes to air disc the industry forgot the reason quick change shoes and out board drums arrived on the scene in the first place. Two main rules that have been forgotten when it comes to fleet operations-{simple and as inexpensive as possible to keep overhead in check} owner operators well that's a whole other ball of twine. If it's your truck have at it-but the big expenditures will take it's toll and soon you will be out of business. IMO
I only worked on trucks for a short period of time in my professional career. One thing I hated was those wheel dollies. I just found it so much easier to take the wheels off to do the seals. Trying to manhandle a set of duals on a rough concrete floor (because the company was too cheap buy us a sheet of plywood lol) was just horrible. Definitely don't miss the snow and salt falling on my face all winter long. I'd take grease and oil over that any day lol.
Wheel dollies I used greased tin plates. good times
We dumped a little bit of gear oil on the floor. It was so messy we just didn't care how long it took after that. We pulled the tires and went from there.
Wow you guys have got to be kidding, I did that greased mud flap crude years ago-I won't even think about pulling a set of duels without a wheel dolly! Damned if I'm going to run a 1" air gun anymore than I have to, takes way too long to do it that way. Sometimes I will have 3 wheel seals to change at once on a three axle trailer, and it's ASAP with a service too
It's a good investment when your major work is on trucks. All my work has been centered on heavy iron so a tire dolly would never be considered by the owners.
Then there are the BIG Tire dollies!! In the Good Old Olden Days in the Quarries, we used loaders forklifts chains and straps!!
If it won't do at least 85 on land then the tires are to big and I don't fool with those. lol
I hear that. I've done 2 brake jobs on Cat 992 loaders and I'll let the young pups do that stuff now.
I did the L90 and L120 Wagner for a few years. The big tire trucks weren't around in those days. We would build our own straps by splicing wire rope eyes to our own specifications and use a boom truck or fork lift if there was one around big enough. The trick was to get the valve stems in the perfect line on the drum and the tires would fit over the studs. Be a quarter hole off and then you had to fight turning the drum or setting the tire down and re-setting your sling. Once in awhile you would get a hard head customer helper who would want to pick the tire with the fork lift tines underneath the tire. Then you fought the helper, the drum and the tire.
I cheated once, just a pair of 1100x20's good floor in the fire station, used a regular creeper to pull the pair off, Dayton wheels and had to replace a tube/patch a tire on a long holiday weekend. Never did a split rim before, didn't get kilt and it lasted another 12 years. My safety was a 20 foot chain wrapped all around and through, and a 50 foot hose with a clip on chuck! I did spend a lot of time sanding the rim free of rust and the same for the lock ring, a bit of grease for lube, seated pretty on the 3rd attempt.
I was wondering about discs. I have read all the hype about how great they are. And I like the fact that the MTO/DOT do not know how to inspect them, therefore no brake OOA fines. But me being in the on/off road dump truck business I had my doubts about how well they would survive in the mud and dirt and dust.
Disc brakes of any kind just don't last long in mud or a dirt environment. Just this week we replaced pads all the way around on two tractors that run 80,000 gvw. with 210,000 on one and 225,00 the other. Plus both two axle trailers that that go with those tractors received a brake change also. And don't be fooled by the idea DOT doesn't know what to look for- If the caliper inboard thrust plate next to the inboard brake pad can be wiggled or moved or there is a visible gap between it and pad that means the auto adjuster inside the caliper is toast. And DOT will find it. You can bet your last buck on that.
There is a difference between truckers and truck drivers. Just did a brake job in a customers 2003 Mack triaxle dump. The pit is on one side of the mountain work is on the other side, truck runs heavy, 85k daily, truck runs 6 days a week 8 months a year. He wanted the brakes done because in 15 years never had any brake work, so why not, I changed brakes that had years of life left. A friend of mine wrenches for a local logger that claims he has a driver that will get 600k out of a set of shoes hauling 110k consistently. I hauled a pc120 excavator for a friend, he followed, commenting that my brake lights were out he didn't see any brake lights down a couple mile long hill till I got to the stop sign at the bottom he said they worked again.
That's true every thing has it's place, But out here the grades are---well there grades up to [10% for 4.5 miles-Jackson hole] Stevens Pass 7 miles of 7%. White Pass 8 miles of 6% off and on. Cabbage Hill 6 miles of 6%, Lookout Pass 6 miles of 6%, Pipe Stone 6.5 of 6 and 7%, White Bird 8 miles of 7.5%, Oakridge 8 miles of 6%, Rye Grass 11 miles of 5% then 6%, Mary Hill 5.5 miles of 6%, Then there is the Infamous Lewiston Grade dropping down whats called the breaks to the Snake River 6.5 miles of close to 7.7%. But the killer grade is the Rattle Snake on Hwy's 129 and 3 that runs from Asotin Wa to Enterprise Or. The sign at the top on the Washington side says {Beware 6.5% Grade For The Next 13 miles}. Loggers mainly run that road. I have driven down everyone of these in a truck trailer or semi tractor at one time in my life.
Certainly nothing wrong with having the skills to run the Jakes and save the brakes but I say brakes are there to be used. If you can go down the hill another gear higher and have to use the brakes a little bit there is no harm in that. Time is money. Just keep them below a dull red and everything will be OK.
Just don’t release the magic smoke!
White Bird the old road in photo.
Drove a number of the Interstate side of those roads, did a few of the old US Highways back in the day hauling steel, reels, lumber behind a 92Series with jakes, brakes were still a requirement and you worked at not coming down a grade at a higher gear than could climb it to preserve those brakes. Here in MO we only have hills, maybe a mile or two of 4-5% grade, most are less than 3% where jakes are enough except where towns have legislated against use of Exhaust Brake(signs exist). Still have to use brakes, just have to be consistent and not get stupid as to when or how long to ride them and if not auto slacks keep up on adjustments.
1977 between Truck Fleet and Leasing company work, just laid off at MACK STL drove loads of manufactured goods to CA and Fresh Produce back. Drove a F700 Bulldog, postage stamp WB tandem with almost enough room behind the cab to open Refer Doors and check that machine prior to use, ALMOST. Was unloaded coming into Bakersfield down Grapevine, no problem for me as EMPTY, gentle ride. Radio crackled with alert to stay in right lane, runaway from another driver where was less than two miles to bottom. Next was seeing flashing CHP lights in mirror then the first Lead car went past, SCREAMING past. Old Pete with load of steel on flatbed went screaming by, ALL wheels smoking drums glowing, another CHP right behind. Were NO runaway ramps as had been removed at that time. Watched in horror as that machine careened down the grade, got to the scene in a few minutes truck in median STILL smoking, some flames at trailer wheels, hood up and engine done with oil everywhere it too smoking with Fire Department on scene. Had passed him as started up grade from LA, had stopped and quick inspected brakes at pullout then started down the hill, do not know if he had bothered to stop and check brakes or if just had a failure or if over ran his luck. Was three days getting my produce loads on, fresh fruit in nose, bulkhead then Lettuce to rear at Salinas then back to Bakersfield to cross and head home. Word came down the pike later truck was a total, load had been swapped to another trailer and the previous trailer was sitting at Bakersfield TS impounded by CHP. Driver lost truck, job and license as well HUGE fines.
Truck Shop, I believe I know why you are having disc brake problems. You are still running drum brakes on the trailers correct? Truck brakes are doing all the work. I can't afford a new truck but after talking with a few of the log truckers here, I'm really interested. One guy had 165,000 miles and the brakes still look new. Said he'd never go back to drums. I'm lucky to get 30,000 miles on my drum brakes and my last drums were over 160 a piece. If drum brakes were better they'd still be on cars in my opinion. I would bet if you had trailers with discs you'd have better luck. Just my thought.
With current anti-lock systems should make little difference having all matched disc or drum or cross matching Would actually expect to see the drum systems wear faster as they did on mix brake autos and trucks.
Drums fade discs don't, discs end up doing all the work in hard use.
Discs fade. I know from experience when I got pissed off at my squeeling rotors on my pickup and rode the brakes for a few kilometers. Pushed that pedal to the floor and it barely did a thing lol.
They sure faded on our race bikes and it did not take long. Even with oversized rotors. I believe any brake will fade when worked hard. Kind of like me.
I would imagine anything could be abused. Truck discs are a little different, no brake fluid to boil. Fellow I talked to with the log truck with discs said you can use them hard without worrying. I flipped my short logger years ago on a steep grade. Both feet on the brake pedal, tach was buried and I knew I was going to die. I had been down that hill dozens of times without a problem. Only thing I did different was I got hard on the brakes on two corners. Third time and there were no brakes. Drum brakes suck! I've also had two brake drums explode under hard braking. 1920's technology. Glad to see manufacturers are at least making some options available. Just like anything new people have there opinions. When I put my first Series 60 in a log truck everyone said I'd have trouble with the computer and the wiring. 2o plus years and not a single problem and still in service. Best motor ever built my opinion.
Fading brakes drum or disc is not really the issue with this thread, If a driver is having brakes fade drum or disc he needs to change his approach to driving. The issue is the expense between the two drum or disc. And if disc is allowing or causing people to run faster and closer in traffic thinking they have better control then there is a problem right there. That is a false sense of security.
That's some really hard use. Logging? You can't be driving very many miles every day, or you would spend all your time doing brakes. 500 miles a day, that's only 60 days between drums.
Much as with Cars these days, false sense that some magic add on anomaly safety feature gonna save the driver from themselves, not a fact in that thought and presses presence harder every day. Car accident in town a few weeks ago, accident report in local eight page rag paper, guy was driving 'reasonable speed' in a high congestion 25mph zone, car backed out in front of him, his auto responded with auto braking and STILL ran into the other car. His comment was he was going to sue the manufacturer for a defective product when it stands out he was a defective driver as he stated he was not Watching for Brake or backup lamps, gawking at the town buildings and shops. My Dad and a few others I know call it situational awareness, KNOW what YOU are doing, HOW You are doing and WHERE you are doing. Drive defensively as those machines and people around you may not be, better to be 5-10mph SLOWER than drive off a cliff by overrunning limitations. Learned that or rather taught that by my Dad and the elder guys training me as I grew as a Mechanic.
50 some percent of our trailers are disc brake. And some tractors are permanently hooked to those trailers. And it's not just us that have an issue-but rather no one wants to admit they bought a bill of goods.
Yep you got it. Last right of way I finished was 21 percent. Add in 20 miles of gravel to fill the drums full of dust and yes I've done a few brake jobs since 1972. Also new drums have less material and will not wear as long before they are too big in diameter.
My grandfather always used to say it was better to be a few minutes late in this world than to be years early in the next........
Finally after two years worth of repair expense the boss threw in the towel on buying anymore tractors with disc brakes. After figuring in the additional expense when ordering with disc which costs $1,400 per axle an extra $4,200 up front then the parts and labor verses the mileage the disc isn't getting that the drum does, he finally agreed with me. you can lead a horse to water and once in a while he will drink.
Ahh- but now you will find out that drum is no longer a option on new trucks- discs will now be the only available option- because safer/lighter/ cheaper for the manufacturer (and a price adder!). Its the future man! Think of the children! You're wasting precious resources making those heavy drums and big brake shoes. Weight is freight not hauled! Super singles forever! Don't you want to save the planet for tomorrow's generations? You'll never make electric by solar power with those heavy obsolete drums.
Drums are still the standard and will be for a long time, mainly because of guy's like me driving disk into the ground. The only thing that's obsolete is the new wave thinking without testing. And weight savings? there is none.
It's not just the children! Think how unhappy the baby seals will be if you reverse progress!!!
Well better yet-everyone quit buying big nosed diesel and gas hungry pickups and rv's.
A friend of mine ordered those on his new log truck and bragged them up for the first 6 months or so. I then had to rescue him when his right front steer tire locked up because the caliper jammed the pad into the rotor because it over adjusted I guess. After replacing it and the new Michelin steer tire that was destroyed I didn't hear much about them. He went to drums on the drive axles when he swapped axles, then ordered drums on the next new truck he bought. Said they worked good going down long hills but didn't pencil out. He figured they would probably be fine on highway trucks but it sounds like he was wrong.
But only if you sneak up behind him with a couple of bricks and smartly clap them together with his nuts in between them. The resulting sharp intake of breath usually triggers the drinking reflex...........
We had two that the caliper floating pins froze because the pressed in cover/cap leaked and let water in. Stopped floating and ate the out board brake pad. Two years old. $534.00 for caliper, $84.00 for pads $200.00 for rotor and $33.00 for wheel seal $4.76 for oil and 2 hrs labor.
Much as the Bendix juice disc brakes Godsend to medium duty, NOT Caliper slides debris and rust damage froze, anti seize only lasted so long Brakes got really hot fully loaded would smoke the piston boots then the same issue with corrosion A line is still a hydraulic hose where blister internally would not let brakes off cook one and is a tow regardless. Old truck drive axles had seals on the stub with grease packed wheel bearings Have seen them oil infused but seldom failed from lack of lube as a hub seal failed. Had a couple owners demanded the old Fords and Corn Queens be returned to the OE set up as newer trucks had burnt out bearings these had not.
Two tools that are a must have for Freightliner air ride suspension with Wabco Air Disc. The early design uses 4 allen head bolts 2019 and down, the late design uses 6 bolts. A 3/4 drive socket won't get the job done, one turn and your out of room. Snap On #LAWM17E early hex socket Snap On #HX380A 1 3/16" Slug Wrench for late design. The calipers and rotors also have been updated so bear that in mind. One other problem is the adjuster bolt head it is only 8mm and will snap off, only use a 1/4" drive ratchet to back them off. Plus there is a red rubber cover that goes over the adjuster. Road moisture can collect under it and the road salt de-icing fluid will/can eat the six points off of it, which if a 7mm six point socket can be tapped over it you might be able to back the pads off and adjust them up. If not the only other alternative is a new caliper $500.00.
Thanks for bumping this thread, Truck Shop. Lots of great discussion.
Here's a PFD on Wabco Maxxus 22 air disc caliper. https://doc.wabco-auto.com/ProductFiles/anteros/Document/8152202013.pdf
Nice thread and thank you. I'll likely never see them and glad for that. I have been learning myself to stay in a noisier gear most times, so the jake is effective. That and keeping my eyes way down the road is easy on the drum brakes.
Interesting reading. How nice that you need a set of special tools just to do general work, great design team work..... That little hex with the beveled top for the adjuster will be great in 2040 when I get around to owning one.
Didn't you hear all trucks with drum brakes are to be pulled off the road by 2025. Better get honed up on your air disc skills now---but wait there's more.
That's only in oregon. I'm not fully in the s cam era yet. They first will have to pry my wedges from my cold dead hands. I have spoons and I'm not afraid to use them.
Nation wide. I was thinking you just used a anchor to stop.
All the dirt on my equipment gives me extra aerodynamic drag, I don't have to have that hot rod stopping equipment.
Ah Ha--Mister DOT needs to catch you moving dirty equipment. Remember why I started this thread? I'm the only one on here that's living in this century.
By WABCOs sheets of service literature I can now see that the K.I.S.S. principle is completely abandoned. Anything requiring that many steps to refurbish or adjust or just replacing pieces is insane. Going to be a lot of these seated in Dealer lots awaiting work and nobody willing to do it. I can see book time being NOWHERE near to what is actually required to overhaul this set up, very sad.
I changed out I believe my 16th wheel seal today, because it's all inboard I can't get the time down any lower than 1 1/2 hours. 2 hours to change rotor. The heat is taking out the seals, no air can get in to keep it cool. A caliper is 489 bucks my cost, everyone else pays 540. Rotor 200.
The pricing will either price them out of business or drive their customers out of business trying to pay for this mess.
Now upfront, I'm no mechanic or truck driver, but my Iveco has air disks on both axles and I actually liked them. I respected everyone's opinion of them being bad but thought every situation is different maybe I'm just lucky, who knows. Went to back the truck out of the shed a couple of days ago, passenger side front tyre locked up. Pulled the rim, somehow the auto adjusters have over adjusted and taken out the inside pad as well as the rotor. No noise, no grinding, didn't know anything was wrong. Getting parts tomorrow, not looking forward to paying the bill. I apologise TruckShop, you were right I was wrong, air disks suck.
In many cases you won't hear anything. Better check the floating pins those have probably stuck.
Brake great when working with less fade or chatter, but expensive when break.
Great, one new long logger is disc & new heavy haul is also
I'm betting you will have fewer problems because superior drivers.
I am going to drive the HH truck and will watch the long logger closely.
Now they know how junk the disc brakes are will they quit putting them on truck? The place i work for has 1 truck with disc brakes it has 350.000 miles on it i have saw every thing i need to about discs.
I have just finished reading this thread completely, mostly out of curiosity to compare my experiences. I held my first steering wheel in 1966 It was an L series Mack with 12' bunks and 4' stakes. had a 4x4 in it. top speed was 30 mph. It still had the water brakes with a 220 Cummins (also with a jake.) My uncle owned it and taught me to drive it. I was 14 and he was one hard ass. It was his way or down the road. I kept on driving various trucks until I was settled in a 69 KW with a 5x4 and a 300 Cummins at Weyerhaeuser. In 78 I left the woods for a career in the electrical world. Upon retirement, I went back to log trucking with a 2005 W900 and a 18 speed. To show either I was taught right or just plain dumb, I had to read what brake fade was to make sure I understood. In all my years, I never had experienced it. What I really miss in the "new truck" I drive is the manual slack adjusters. I cannot get my head wrapped around automatic slack adjusters. I would come in at the end of the day after fueling and things have cooled down and set my brakes up every evening. It was a chance to look things over to count parts, look for bright shiny spots and to do it in daylight. Trying to look a truck over at 3AM in rain or snow just does not make for a good inspection. Now, many will call me a Luddite, but automatic transmissions, automatic slack adjusters and all the "brain free" equipment on a truck today makes for a brain free driver. When I pulled a hill in the days of yore, I had to plan ahead. even today I need to plan ahead with a manual transmission. I long for the days when drivers thought about the road more than 100 feet in front of them. Even today, driving my personal vehicle, I am thinking about the road 3-4 miles ahead. I guess getting clipped about the ears when I was young stuck with me....
All that automatic stuff is just preliminary to replacing the most expensive part, the driver. Won't be any on the freeways soon, at least not for the fleets. No hours of service limitations, they'll run 24/7 and get inspected at preplanned fuel stops. Truck stops will die out too, as the human customers dwindle down. Progress. Right.
Just a repeat of the 1950s/60s/70s as the interstates bloomed.
Where do you haul out of Jumbo?
A little info. The photo below is a Bendix air disc caliper. The six bolt black cover has a port where you can see the slack adjusting bolt {Special tool required provided new under a rubber cover for that port}. This caliper is chain driven on slack {not gear driven like Wabco}. That six bolt black cover has a tendency to crack allowing moisture inside, when that happens the chain will rust and lock up. More than likely you will break the special adjusting socket trying to back off brakes. When those rust it's pretty much over, new calipers are $1,400 and L&R-three month waiting for a new one. The adjuster socket is in the photo.
Price increase? Or are these the new improved design that cost three times as much?
I don't have any disk brake log trucks anymore.
The Wabco was 489 my cost now 538, The Bendix model is 1400.
One thing less to deal with.
you get rid of a truck ?
Ya, #3 is gone.
Long time getting back, sorry. Chronological order; Mineral (off highway only) Snoqualmie, and White River. At the end, for my retirement hobby job; White River, Eatonville, Morton, Skykomish and a whole lot of other stops along the way. Now, I'm parked, probably for good since my neck is too big and I "obviously" need a CPAP machine which I refuse to wear. Bedsides, I'm closing in on 70 and I am starting to feel lazy.
All my family is from Mineral, Pleasant Valley & Morton.
Family (grandparents) were from Eatonville. My uncle got in with St. Regis because of Tom Murray. Did small time contracting in the early/mid '60s and then sold all his equipment (probably for scrap) in the later'60s and went wrenching for many years after.
I'm sure we know many of the same people then. My dad started for St.Regis in 1964. My grandparents owned the Elbe tavern for years.
There was a whole lot of logging in that area in those time frames. My mother and mother in law's families both lived in that area.
I may have met your grandparents. After work at either the Mineral tavern or the Elbe tavern, we would stop for a beer on the way home. I hope your grandparents never got tagged because of me since I started to drink at those establishment when I was 14. Saw my first bar fight at Mineral the same summer. What a summer education, the summer of 1966.
I had my own stool at the bar in Elbe til I was 5 or 6 when Liquor Control said no more. Lots of fries, soda & pull tabs & punchboards!
Another issue some may want to know about. On Bendix air disc calipers there is a cone shaped rubber cover over the adjuster port. Under that rubber cover is a adapter that is splined on one side with a 10MM hex on the other that is removeable and for a reason {it's made to shear off in the center leaving hex on one side spline on the other}. But there is a problem that can develop when moisture gets under the rubber cover. The adapter can rust solid to the splined shaft for adjusting brakes. If that happens you probably wont get it out because the main cover for the adjuster is made of plastic and you will more than likely crack it. If that happens you may not be able to just buy the plastic cover. So anyone servicing a trailer or tractor with Bendix air disc calipers you better remove the rubber cone adjuster cover and spray some penetrating lube in there or remove the adjuster and put anti-seize on the spline portion of the adapter. Plus check the black plastic cover for cracks {those do crack}. Any moisture gets inside it will lock up the chain driven adjuster. A new Bendix caliper $1,400 and possibly a three week wait. A complete brake job on a three axle trailer-6 calipers, 6 rotors, 3 boxes of pads, 6 wheel seals and 6 air cans on a Bendix air disc with say 9 hrs labor {$12 to $13,000}. Below is the said adapter.
Sounds like you juste went through that ordeal?
Just checked mine, A-ok! Gonna put silicone lube in em.
Had one a couple months ago. Talking to FRTLNR it's become a problem. I was lucky able to remove rusted spline after a bit with o-ring pick. Most don't come out.
Are they there as a manual adjustment backup to the auto adjusters?
It's the only means to back the caliper pistons off to replace pads and to readjust after. De-Icing fluid and salt/fertilizer are probably the worst enemy. If it's a Wabco caliper-those have a 8MM hex head, the hex will rust and a 6 point won't grab, next option is try to carefully tap a smaller socket over the hex. Those break also, Wabco caliper $600.
Hell we're truckers, we are used to not having any money!!
Bigger?Better? More expensive the future.
It wouldn't be if consumers would stop lining up with their wallets open and pants down.
Your wright there is a sucker born every day. To me alot of stuff about a truck was perfected in the late 60s early 70s then because it was good they had to slowly destroy it. I will never under stand why a AC or electric window needs a computer to make it work better?
I came into trucks around 2006 and still surprised how standard and universal they are. My rig is a 1965 and still takes easy to find off the shelf parts.
I love the new computer controlled engines & disc brakes. You can hold this X15 to the wood with 200k on its back, fan on & never even have to worry about a gauge. You simply cannot burn one up. I can hear it already.."You aren't a real trucker, you are just a throttle jockey, ect" Damn straight but I get more done than these white sunglasses supertrucker clowns & relics that think you have to have a CAT & run it between 1423 & 1443rpm only! And yes, disc are expensive to buy, service & maintain but I just have my lowbed truck to worry about now & I like the best stopping power available.
I'd better log off now, I have a leveling shovel to go move.
My experience with the air disks concerns a fuel tank truck that we converted to a water truck back in the late eighties. It was a decent old truck when we got it but got ruined in short order dropping water on dirt roads in an open pit coal mine. At any rate the driver was complaining about weak brakes and brought it to the shop. We had a truck mechanic working for us then who took one look and did some swearing. He called the brake system stop master and said it worked pretty good on trucks always hauling heavy. There were no auto slacks back then and he said on the roads of the northwest they didn't need a lot of adjusting but also said that the adjusters needed to be turned now and then to keep them free. By the time we were asked to adjust them, they were all locked up. We had to pull all the wheels off to get access to the adjusters as I recall. At any rate once we got all the calipers free and working right, you could stop that truck with a full load of water on the hill going out of the pit and the service brakes would hold the truck from rolling back down the hill. About that time the monorail in Seattle ran through a stop at a station. People had to get out of the train on ladders. Found out a little later that it also had the stop master system and no one had done any maintenance on it either.
The problem like most these days-is it's great until the reality of repair cost comes into play. For a few truck operation I suppose it's fine---------until the repair cost come back into play. For the extra 17 feet of stopping power at 60 the air disc provides, against the initial added cost plus added repair costs it doesn't equate. People like to say--{Well I like the extra stopping power so it's worth it}. That's all relative. Accidents in most cases depend on timing-which is regulated by speed, twenty to thirty seconds either way-all happenstance. Since the air disc systems hit the market in 2013-truck related accidents {wrecks} which is a better term have increased--for the simple fact Trucks are running closer together and if the sign says 65 for trucks they are going to push 70. I've had our own drivers tell me they feel a better sense of security with disc so they push the envelope harder. The reality of that thinking is--They lost the extra stopping distance at 65 mph plus upped the inertia which will cause a much more spectacular wreck. Not very smart. Had a Sargent with the Washington State Patrol tell me something while I was on a Major wreck recovery/cleanup---What you are looking at is a wreck not a accident---a accident turns into a wreck because accidents are avoidable, and 90% of accidents are avoidable but because people are constantly overloading their ass wrecks like this are the norm.
No more log trucks? You just hiring contract trucks then to haul the logs?
Truck driver of yesteryear and today. What Happened?
Yessir
I can't argue with any of that!
One bad thing about the disc is when a truck gets old and is resold its going to be a major expence to keep good brakes.
You Doug are one of the very few that can foresee that issue. What I have been saying all along.
There's a lot about modern trucks and equipment that is that way. I bet in 30 years there'll be more 60 y/o equipment running than 30 y/o one.....
Likely won't matter because the whole truck will be ready to be thrown away. Between the rats nests of wires and all the computer garbage the trucks will be off the road far sooner then the old trucks that lasted until the frame, cab, or engine gave up.
Electronics are already taking many out, inability to repair existing processors as Will Not release the "Proprietary" data program settings. So as age the processors die and machines become non functional while Brake systems or Semi Auto transmissions great now will be Unobtanium on 10 years where only worth hauling to scrap yards.
Only one problem with the idea of running old trucks and the thought of all these mechanical Tier 1's which are already 30 years old running 30 plus years from now. #1 engine, transmission and drive axle parts. There are only so many cores that are rebuildable now. Most requiring very major machine work as a last ditch effort to save a block. Cummins stopped supporting the old 855's, Cummins doesn't want to continue to support engines 30 years old, they want to sell new. It's not good for their business to keep selling old, outdated parts plus keep a large inventory of it. Same with Cat. Cat will cut the cord also. #2 and not related to construction business. If you looked at how many miles that are stacked on a highway truck today compared to years back, these new trucks way out perform the old. In the early 90's if a truck saw 120K a year that was thought of as a lot. We've got drivers that run 160,000 a year plus. In 4 years that truck is traded off. #3 Fuel mileage, There isn't a tier 1 or tier 2 engine with manual transmission out there that can compete with todays tier 4. We gross 100,000 running to Denver, Fargo, Seattle and Portland area south plus Tacoma to Kalispell constantly like every day. All in mountainous region. The best any C-15 at 550hp or Series 60 at 550hp both at 1850 torque would ever get on a average in our fleet was 4.9. The DD15's we have now average 6.2 with a DT12 automated transmission. There is no way in hell you can find a driver that can compete with the perfect shift points/rpm that a computer can, the computer doesn't waste fuel. Shifts faster, smoother and easier on drive train. Ever since we went to AMT transmissions--------we haven't lost one U-Joint, only lost one rear drive and that was covered on warranty. But the air disc brakes those are a problem. Because people don't understand the learning curve involved with driving a AMT. Only a few do. The real problem is strictly the cost of replacement parts and labor. The Cyborg Trucks are here-everyone needs to get use to it.
My business can't afford new. Its seasonal, 7500 miles or so per year on the better trucks, only a few thousand on the older trucks. Fuel mileage doesn't matter, dependability does. But replacement trucks for what I have now are very difficult to find. I went looking for another a couple of years ago and ended up with a Sterling. OK truck ruined by a junk dash. Can you give a few pointers on the learning curve for driving a AMT?
Right here are all the Eaton videos for Eaton EEO Automated Manual Transmission. Detroit DT12 is similar and there are videos for those also. https://firstfleet.zendesk.com/hc/e...mins-Endurant-12-Speed-Automated-Transmission
There are a lot of people in your boat, when the parts dry up is when they will be forced to buy new.
I think OTR trucks are a different beast as age is what will kill a lot of the trucks, if the trucks running down the highway 100k miles a year or 30k miles in the city it will probably take a similar time for things like wires to rub through, so you can still get enough miles on them to pay them off before they are worthless. It's just the guys who buy the old OTR trucks to run in the city for another 10 years likely will end as the trucks won't be worth trying to keep on the road.
Same boat here, I will keep my old truck until it's not worth fixing, which i'm hoping is long enough I won't need a heavy truck anymore, cab rust is probably the worst thing right now. I don't know if i'd want to take on a cab replacement if it came to that. It's costing me around $3k a year in repairs, probably see 6000 miles this year. I have zero complaints about that cost. A new truck with one electrical or emissions issue will cost a good portion of that. I am baffled how good of mileage mine gets, far better then a maxxforce 9 I know that.
The construction business, mainly small construction businesses will try to run the old stuff as long as possible same with farmers. But eventually even they will have to move into this century.
One thing to consider is the funnel effect. Not near as many run old trucks as new ones. So even if these new techno trucks are having components fail out, junkyards might be able to supply them from others worn out or wrecked or junked with some unrelated failure. (If it is not one of those parts that changed with each model year. Even then there may be updates.) Also, if it gets bad enough, some new company like a Hayes or Pacific will appear and make simple trucks again and they might sell pretty good. The electronic engines are pretty well understood at this point. But most people know that the electronic air conditioner and window regulator and dome light are just unnecessary and worthless, and there is money to be made in that segment if somebody chooses to open that segment.
I agree BV, but the supply chain has changed and so has scrap yard values. It's not uncommon to see a price tag on a running take out B model Cat 400 at 13,000 plus. Because a yard is always going to charge 50% plus of oem rebuilt. As far as any new companies stepping in that will take some serious cash, and not many investors with mounds of money want to invest in a new vehicle company. Takes too long to see a return on investment.
The best bet of advice for driving an AMT is it is to remember that you are not smarter than that computer and to allow it to do its thing. The sooner you learn that the easier your life will be
They must have come a long way then, while it's different then a straight auto, 99% of the time i'm towing whether it's a pickup or heavy truck with an auto, i'm swearing at it because it's in the wrong gear. Either it's lugging and should be downshifting, or it's downshifting and screaming for no reason.
If I ever decide or am forced to upgrade I will make sure I buy at least a 2001 to get into this century
That's true--But there is several modes built into the system. Full auto, performance, and manual. When descending a long grade such as Cabbage, the best way is to brake the truck down using jake at the top in manual mode downshifting to 7th or 8th gear leave it there running the jake at 2000 rpm. It will hold all the way to the bottom {6 miles of 6% at 38 to 40 mph-45 in 8th at 100,000 gvw without touching the brakes}. And that's with a Cummins or Detroit. Left in full auto mode it can down shift at points the will cause a engine overspeed {in the neighborhood of 26 to 2,700 rpm which will void warranty} Anything over 2,300 can cause a void.
I don't know anything about AMTs except drivers hated the early ones. But in early days always thought Allisons were great for going uphill, just point the truck at a hill with the hammer down and the trans would pick the right gear and almost never do anything stupid like a car that can't decide what gear it wants and shifts back and forth. Fast forward to the late 00s and we got a new crop of Allisons and they came programmed with a very dumb shift schedule, would upshift much too soon and never let the engine get to the top of the RPM band even if you wanted, very sluggish. The Allison dealer had a man with a laptop who would come out and reprogram, we had to have him do each truck that was bought, but once he was done, it was even better than the old ones. There is more to this story with graphs and charts but probably too boring to type here. Another feature that they had was when lifting throttle with Jake on would call for 2nd gear and would downshift as soon as engine RPM would allow, also turn the fan on. That was useless, Jake was already quite good enough by itself without excess RPM and fan was just unnecessary, especially these overdriven fans that came on the emissions trucks. Just because you lift your foot does not mean you want to come to a complete stop immediately, the effect of this programming was to make drivers switch off the Jake.
I wish it could work this way but there isnt many guys that can buy a new truck that would buy this kind of a truck i would and some older guys would but most would want the computer operated windows and Ac thinking that its must be better. Then they would some how have to jack the price up on a plain truck to were it cost twice as much. A good example of this is how many time have you seen last years car,truck or some tools being sold cheap because every one wants the latest and greatest.
That's why there is a two and three position jake switch. A 32" fan will use 20 hp easy at 2000 rpm. But Jakes are designed and work best at the top governed rpm.
There is a demand for non egr engines and the OEM support for them might go away, but quality aftermarket support will see a demand and rise up to help. I've seen companies **** away thousands for repairs on 2008+ engines. I'll keep my old engines and I'll always find a way to keep them running, and people like me are growing, just not growing as much as the guys buying disc brakes unfortunately.
When the Glider Kits became popular it cleaned salvage yards of years of old core engines. And many of those required major last ditch machine work to become usable. A major salvage yard near me has seen a decline in good cores. And the aftermarket knows the oem's are dropping support so aftermarket will be as expensive as oem, just because they can.
I have plenty of clients looking for anything having to do with old Komatsu parts. On twenty five year old engines, there is little parts support and no cores anywhere. Even many of Komatsu's machines are in the same boat. EPA shut down the manufacture of older model engines starting at Tier 1 and moving to Tier 2. If the manufacturers stop producing parts for the old stuff, you can certainly bet that those manufacturers will move to make sure there is little or no aftermarket manufacturers of new parts and components for trucks and machines that put out the any non complying smoke. Good used stuff will always be around. It's just that you are not going to be able to buy something from the time before emissions limits and expect to be able to make money with it.
My buddy just got a quote on a rebuilt C-15 from a truck dealer 46K and 20K core so 66K. The customer wants to replace a 3406 in an older log truck bet that's not going to happen. Son priced a platinum kit for a C-15 at 35K. Bad Bob
Fast food & truck stops. ... Yesteryear ... every man brought a lunch bucket from home.
Yesteryear, the truck drivers didn't spend three weeks or more on the road. A lunch box now likely only carries some paperwork and a wallet.
Fast food at every small town and the herders stop like clockwork.
These dumb things were programmed to call for 2nd gear no matter what position the Jake was in. You could get it reprogrammed to stay in whatever gear it was in, but talking to the dealer to explain what you wanted you had to say it 4 times. It's like they did not understand at all, "you mean you want the Jake to come on without downshifting at all?" Yes I want to have control. If I want it to downshift then the buttons are still there. But going down a 6% at 65 mph you only needed Jakes on high at 1600 RPM, no need to downshift to maintain speed on that grade, the Jake works good enough by itself. Also the fan has its own switch if I want it to come on but the Jakes are strong enough by themselves.
When a driver shows up to head out-it takes him a minimum of a 1/2 hour to load all his stuff. Food, clothes, bedding what ever. When I drove it was a bag with 7 pairs of under ware {incase you crapped 4}, 7 tee shirts, 7 pairs of socks, 3 pairs of jeans. Ate once a day, eat too much and you get sleepy. But there were regular restaurants in those days too-not the crap of today. Some had areas that were for drivers only. I had regular stops for food-didn't eat gut bombs. Made my first trip to LA in 1978. Drove 11 western states and British Columbia, now and then would cross the border to Tijuana with apples. Hauled a lot of produce out of Nogales but mostly out of the SJ valley in Cali. Drove a 78 352 Pete 400 *** and a 81 K100 110 cab with 400 Cat. Chased produce up and down the west coast. Usually gone 4 to 5 days. Delivered to Lucky, Safeway, Albertsons, United Grocers, Raley's. In Canada it was Tom Yee, McDonalds, Oppenheimer. Never wore dirty clothes with food splatters, Never wore biker shirts or doo rags, dressed like I knew what I was doing weather I did or not. And kept my face shaved. I felt I had better luck with shippers and receivers looking decent.
Just this week and the only one that's done it, DD15 broke a crank in Jerome Id. 51K covered on warranty. 340,000 miles on it.
Yesteryear---No power steering {not until 60's}, No A/C, Most with twin sticks {4x3, 4x4, 5x4} air shift wasn't common till mid 60's, No air ride anything including seat-wasn't common till late 60's, air wipers, Cab heat was poor, No radial tires-split rims with bias tires, No jakes or engine retarders {jakes didn't come along till 1962}. No air dryers {you drained the tanks daily}. No sound deadener/insulation-- most sounded like two skeletons ******* on a tin roof. No cell phones {you broke down you took care of it. No fridge, no tv's, no sound systems. If you had 220 to 335 hp you were a big strapper plus still made 500 miles in a day and more. No heated mirrors {that didn't happen till early 70's}.
Drove or worked on a number of those beasts. Mack was a holdout for PS for a LONG time.
I drove a '67 3/4 chevy for years back and forth to work. You learn to steer while moving. And don't get your hands tangled up in the wheel when she's coming back around straight. Just let it spin. I cringe every time I see one of my guys cranking around on the steering while setting still. Most of all our stuff is 20k on the fronts and its hard on steers on shot rock or pavement.
Guys in training used to make fun of me for my constant yelling about not turning the wheel when it isn't moving. I said I don't care how slow you are moving, just be moving a little bit! Tears up the pavement on a hot day, also.
To both of those reply's--Had anyone ever drove a truck with center point steering they would figure it out. The real problem with dry steering is the stress loaded to the frame where steering box is attached. It will load the frame with twisting the rail. Rarely does the right rail ever crack, 90% of the time it's the left unless it has right hand steering.
I still fight that, highway guys always want to crank the wheel sitting still. In a damp plowed field, that can be the difference in driving out and being pulled.
They think in the terms they are driving a car.
Tears up asphalt he says. https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SFa5yz1zfeE
Had a guy with a class a driving a straight truck and he would rev up the engine and let out the clutch, you would hear a higher rpm while the truck was in motion and then it would settle at the correct rpm, like he was driving a car poorly. Where do these people learn to drive?
It's why the AMT came on the scene-a lot, {A Lack Of Talent}.
My old K100 had centerpoint, better than the old Gemmer boxes on Freightliners at low speed, as a newbie I was taught ease the clutch out until moving then Throttle as is enough torque on most of the old engines, just not the Driptroits.
Funny thing to come across today at 9:30-10:00 in the video. A brand new cat loader for mining operations with a 40 year old design mechanical 3306.
I learned to drive on old 1940s tractors that had no PS and if you weren't moving, you learned you need not even bother trying to turn the wheel, it wouldn't move. Let out the clutch a little and it turned all you wanted. Also some of those trucks where PS seemed to be an afterthought, you could crank the wheel faster than the pump could supply oil at idle if you were moving slow.
Yeah I don't think that is from turning the wheel when not moving. A little beyond that.
Yah uh ha--until backing up.