Dad and I have a small gold mine at a remote location. We are excavating a buried stream channel around 75 to 100 feet wide. There is anywhere from 1 to 12 ft of black dirt overburden covered by 2 to 5 in trees. We have done a lot of work using an old jd350 but it keeps falling apart. It's time for a new plan. We have been thinking a 120 size excavator working with a 420 or equivalent backhoe to get the pay gravel exposed, mined, and through the washplant. Because the site is remote and our success depends on the health of the equipment we are looking at something with around 2,000 hours or less. We are planning for next year, but would like to get the backhoe this year to start clearing the overburden and getting a head start on production (hopefully a couple thousand yards) to help pay for the excavator. The black dirt is very easy to dig (the trees are thick but shallow and need to be moved independently of the dirt) but the stream gravel is much harder packed, although the jd350 didn't have any problem in the pay. I wonder if the backhoe will be an asset out there and what it is capable of accomplishing as a one machine operation. Any idea is worth considering because if we can make it pay then we can afford it.
very interesting post from Alaska.How do you know where the gold is? Or do you just mine the river gravel and extract from there ?
Looks like you need new teeth on your track loader. Welcome to the forum !:drinkup
How far do you have to take the material to the wash plant? A backhoe is not the best earth toter if you have to carry any distance. Depending on underfoot conditions and distance you may want to look at a wheel loader or dump truck to transport the material. What kind of production rates are you shooting for, tonnage wise per day? How far is the wash plant from the pit? Do you have to reclaim your site once you are finished?
I would be thinking about a wheel loader. But then I don't touch anything with less than 2,000 hours on it.
It would appear to me that an excavator (with a hydraulic progressive link thumb) and a loader might be your best bet. CM's questions are important, as the haul distance is a critical component to the decision, but a mid to small size loader can pack a lot of material if the distance is close as well as support the wash plant. In my opinion backhoes are great if you don't have the right tool for the job. The excavator with thumb will help tremendously with the tree removal and keeping things sorted and neat. If you are able to side cast your overburden, or excavate in strips so that you are placing your overburden on a previously exhausted ore excavation you may find that your earthmoving cost goes down considerably.
Thank you for all the replies! There is about a half pennyweight per yard of gold in all of the stream gravel with some pockets having the majority of the ounces. The jd350 has done a lot of work for us in the short amount of time we have kept it together, but right now it spins in circles. I think it needs a steering clutch which I would like to try to fix someday. The gravel will need to be transported about 100 to 300 feet depending on when we move the plant and the pond (see aerial picture). As far as production rates, so far we have only used a simple bulk sampling setup. This time we will need more volume, but not too much since it is only a small deposit. I think 50 yards a day would be reasonable with 100 yards a day being much better. (about 130 tons). 80 yards an hour is common for many washplants, but I'm not sure we could produce gravel that fast. We do have to reclaim by pushing the overburden back. The area between the red lines on the aerial photo is approx where the stream bed lies and it continues on in the direction of the arrow. The washplant would be setup near the pond to recirculate water.
Alaska Gold Blues part 2 I posted a thread with the same name in the backhoe forum and thought I had better post here as well. My dad and I have a small remote placer operation that we prospected by hand and now would like to get a little more serious about mining it. We lack well rounded experience with equipment other than a hand shovel ( i can tell you all about those). Our hope was to develop an equipment plan that could be implemented in stages as production increased to keep the yearly budget low. It would be nice to buy only one piece of equipment this year to work a couple months and get set up to really hit it hard next summer with the second piece added. Here is the link to the other thread, please take a look. For now, I'll be searching past threads for advise on buying quality used excavators because we don't have access to a shop and will buy tools only as needed. Thank you for your time.
I've merged your two threads to the mining forum. Please keep all your posts regarding this operation within this thread, it will help with continuity. Thanks.
The reason I posted in the backhoe forum is because I was looking for specific advise about a backhoe as an asset under specific conditions. Then when I considered a hoe i posted in the excavator forum. I didn't post in the mining forum because ours is hardly the scale of operation I would expect to have any relevance in a professional mining forum. The readers of the backhoe forum are many and I thought we had a good thread going.
A 120 sized excavator, and a stacker might work for all but the reclamation. A 2.5 yd wheel loader would work well for everything but clearing, and with a rake could handle that as well, but if the overburden is soft, you will be in trouble, but your running a narrow pad trackloader now so you should be ok. As far as your trackloader goes, I think you have a bigger problem that clutches, when a clutch goes you can no longer turn in that direction. For instance if the right clutch goes to turn right you must hold the left clutch and back up. Your problems if it will only turn in a circle would probably mean final drive trouble...
Wow, thanks Stumpjumper. One side of the jd350 just doesn't have power at all. It seemed to happen all at once, one day after being stuck pretty good in the mud. We still managed to spin circles and run much of that pay pile shown in 2 of the above photos. Any guesses on how many cubic yards that pile might be?
I posted this once but have no idea where it went. Anyway, My best SWAG method on the quantity would be about 600 to 700 cubic yards. If you and your Dad can muster up the money for a used 120 to 160 sixed excavator and smaller loader like stumpjumper suggested I think that, with a bit of planning, you will be amazed at how much material you can move. Try to figure out how to move your overburden as short as distance as possible. For example, if you move your overburden to the side, excavate the ore, then place your tailings back in the ore slot, then place the next overburden on top of that, you might get by just fine. Once you have it opened up enough you could haul ore to the plant and tailings back staying loaded both ways. The picture in post #8 scares me, as many of people have died due to sloughing in holes and trenches much shallower than that. It appears that you dug that by hand (bravo) and I realize the desire to move as little as possible in your exploration, but please be careful. An excavator would also be incredibly valuable for exploration holes and planning where you want to mine. I am not a miner but I am sure others can give you some great advice in that regard, but the most cost-effective way to accomplish what you want on a budget would seem to me to be the loader/excavator combination. Good Luck!
We are still considering the backhoe for the first year followed by a second piece next year because of the price compared to a loader or crawler. The jd350 didn't have a problem scooping pay right out of the bank and a 3 year old cat 420 has to be able to do with its loader bucket what the '67 jd350 did, or better, right? And, the pads are so worn on the 350 that backhoe tires would prob grip the ground better! I keep thinking about what Oxbow said, "In my opinion backhoes are great if you don't have the right tool for the job." The right tool is pretty expensive (cat 953 and an excavator) but a backhoe has to be able to move the black dirt easy enough, and finish excavating the pond... How could it have less digging force with the loader than the 350? I have never run a backhoe... One website says a jd350C has breakout force of 12,100 lbs. Backhoes look like they have a breakout force of around 10,000lbs.
Track loaders were yesteryears mass excavators, if you wanted to dig a house basement, or load fill out they were the tool of choice. With a toothed bucket they will dig in almost any ground condition that an excavator today can, with the exception of really wet ground. To realize the potential of a trackloader you need to see or run a larger one. To the best of my knowledge the 350 deere was very close to the smallest commercial trackloader made, though they were the smallest but I think case made some tiny 310 loaders in the 60's. But if you want to see a dirt pig, go find a cat 977L, or even a 955, then you will see what trackloaders can really do. As far a backhoes go, the front bucket was more designed to be a counter weight for the hoe in early days, and to ferry materials around the job site. With an older backhoe, especially a 2wd edition, you would have to dig a pile loose with the hoe, then spin around and load / carry the loose dirt to where you needed it. The 4wd backhoes of today are much better, and all brands are not equal. In my opinion the best backhoe for front end loader work is a ford / new Holland hands down. If you could find a New Holland 115B, its the 4 equal sized tire model, you would be well served. Not that cat cant make a backhoe, cause they do, and they have an awesome cab on them, but them 115 new hollands are brutes.
Sorry Oxbow,,, my guess would be not a lick over 300 yards,,,, take another look at the pile and the compare it to the 350 and we'll see if I can't jew you down a little....lol...... Grandpa
You are probably closer than my guess Grandpa, I re-looked at the picture in post #1 and the length of the pile appears shorter than I originally guessed. So, 30' by 60' by 5' is probably more like it, hence a bit over 300 yds. is much closer. I stand correced. :notworthy Those cubic yards in Alaska are probably pretty similar N Minnesota yards eh? The pile is bigger in January than July!
If what your looking for just one machine to purchase and keep running I think you have the right idea with a backhoe. A backhoe never really seems like the ideal machine for any one specific task. But on the flip side if your patient it will do just about everything you need done. If your looking to excavate and skip material 300', 50-100 yards a days should be no problem with a semi modern backhoe. Is there any rental yards semi close to your site? Maybe you could rent a backhoe for the summer just to get you by. Then if you hit pay dirt pick up a ex and loader for next summer...... On a side note I own a backhoe and have always been interested in gold mining in Alaska
Shipping would be costly but the $7800 price on this Michigan loader isn't too bad. http://www.ksl.com/?nid=678&ad=25435688&cat=99&lpid= No , not mine nor do I know the seller.
I'll haul it for you if you like!
just tossing out this idea. if you did get a nice backhoe you could get a small dump truck or track dump. this way you can move topsoil to a stock pile area. then slot trench as mentioned before to get to pay dirt. haul that to the plant. then when u get enough to run the plant for a day you can use the backhoe to tend to the plant. you can utilize the machine the hole time and run the hole operation with 2 guys.
If you were going to go with a backhoe, I would make it a 710. Near excavator breakout numbers on the backend and smaller wheel loader capacity on the front end. Otherwise I it would seem to me to be and excavator/wheel loader operation for more productivity.
I'm thinking the sluice is the bottleneck. It wouldn't work to have a huge old wheel loader that was working half the time, even if it could move more yards. He wants a reliable backhoe so the sluice is never idle. A dump truck would be harder to dump than a loader.
I like the 710 route! They are quite a bit more expensive and harder to find, but have a 2.5 yard loader with 15,ooo lbs breakout! Maybe a backhoe to start making some gold right away, then add an excavator and dump truck hopefully the following year. One guy can use the excavator and dump truck to keep the pay stockpiled near the washplant and the other guy can use the backhoe to support the plant by feeding with the loader and also using it to haul tailings. A good thing about this plan is it is adaptable. If the backhoe was broke down, the excavator could stockpile pay then walk over and tend the plant. If the dumptruck was down, the 710 could alternate between stockpiling material and running the plant.
After meeting with a potential investor, the above is still an option. There is also another option, a new crawler loader. We can get a brand new John Deere 655c for somewhere around $180,000. This is from the dealer with a full warranty and they even have their own airplane for warranty work in the bush. Operating this type of machine would be somewhat familiar to us compared our jd350. This would be a one machine operation until such a time that we might add a backhoe to tend the washplant. A big concern here is there doesn't seem to be many of these machines out there and we would have to buy it sight unseen. Also, the resale value is very low on similar low hour machines. I wonder why? There is also the option of going with the 655k which has tier 4 emissions and costs a bit more. The guys at the Cat dealer wouldn't give us much information on the 953 and instead thought that we should buy a skidsteer for 100,000 from off the lot. The 655c would mean it would take more gold to break even, but perhaps breaking even would be more fun and in a similar time frame when compared to the backhoe idea. A new John Deere 710 is getting quite close to the price of a 655 In the end, the goal is to pay off the investor in gold and end up with the equipment and to continue mining. New equipment didn't used to be an option, but when working with an investor, the idea is to reduce risk everywhere we can. That John Deere extended warranty and an airplane is very attractive compared to slightly used, but hiring a mechanic, and missing part of the short season. Not much info on here about the 655c and 655cII and 655k. They sure look like awesome machines!
I would try and find a used 710. There is a large construction company here that loves those things and they rotate them out often and they take very good care of their stuff. Contact Honen Equipment in Idaho Falls, Brent is the guy you want to speak to. You would have to get it there, and maybe it would not make sense but you can run the numbers as see what you think.
I personally think a using a track loader to shuttle material is a bad idea. I would go with a backhoe myself.
A track loader will move mountains more material than a backhoe will but for $180K you could get a couple of pieces of equipment that will greatly improve your productivity. You can get a used 20 ton hoe and a wheel or track loader for the same amount and double the productivity. The new smell wears off quickly when you aren't making any money, just equipment payments.:cool2
I dont have much experience with track loaders, but wouldn't that depend on the distance you intend to move the material? I would assume a track loader would move more material at relatively short distances say under 100', but what happens when you extend that out to 500' or even 1000'. Can the track loader keep up? Then what about running cost? Fuel, undercarriage, ect.
I like the shotgun behind the sluice!
I would agree. I think trying to move material around with it would be slow and expensive in undercarriage wear. Might work for the excavation side of it but not so much for the lift and carry portion. That's why there are wheel loaders.
firebird_ak, I found this forum gathering information on crawler loaders. How is your project going ? Have you made any headway in your endeavor to upgrade your machine and project? I own a 955k which I am using to clear land we have in the Kenai area. If I can be of assistance let me know....
Welcome to HEF AKDM!
A decent sized wheel loader 966ish with a digging bucket. Pair it with a small dozer D6/650JD. Use the dozer to strip off the overburden/top soil and trees. In your pictures it does not look like you are digging in hard rock. The wheel loader can dig and tram the ore. If digging becomes harder, use the dozer to breakdown the material and push to the wheel loader. If you over size your equipment slightly it is not so hard on it. The other question is: how remote are you? Do you have to fly in equipment/parts and fuel? Barge, or winter road? I worked in a mine outside McGrath for 2 years, everything had to be flown in.
So what did you end up with? I would guess your all done mining for the season.
Hi everybody We ended up getting a 2005 416D with only 1200 hours on it. It really seemed like the best machine available at the time. I was impressed with what we were able to do with it. One of the biggest problems we was the lack of traction. The chains we bought for the rear tires wouldn't clear the cab so we couldn't use them. The tires are foam filled and have been great, but I suspect they sink in the mud much more than air filled would. Moving the black dirt is very time consuming. We washed about 1000 yds of pay through the little trommel. This year we hope to increase it to 3500 with a few modifications. I never did get the feed hopper to vibrate and I still haven't gotten time to take apart the jd350 to look at the clutches. Hopefully this year for both. Heres a link to a short video. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vo5xKCWcq0 Thanks for all the interest!
So don't leave us hanging, how much gold did you get out on the 1k yards you ran? Nice backhoe, looks like it did what you needed it to.
thanks for the update. i am thinking you feel great getting some return from your investment. keep at it and keep the updates coming please!!
25 ounces. Not enough to get a decent excavator, but we paid the backhoe payments for the winter and the tool and food bills for next year. The ground is pretty consistent, but there should be a couple small pockets hiding in there with some really good gold. There's probably between 200 and 900 ounces right in that little area that we prospected. You can see the area mined with the backhoe in 2014 outlined in red and roughly what area is left as defined by my old prospect holes in blue. I have prospected by hand about 200 yards beyond the top of the picture and found nice coarse gold, but haven't yet found a well defined channel beyond what is outlined in blue. There's an older link belt on craigslist that might be worth a look... If it just makes it out there and operates for a month it would probably be worth it. http://anchorage.craigslist.org/bfs/4853335579.html Might be able to work a deal, but if I'm going to go into debt it probably won't be for an old machine. I'll probably get a real job after this summer so I might just put the place up for sale and see what happens. Thanks for your interest in this project.
How many yard did you have to move to get that 25 ounces if I may ask?
Would be pretty neat to try that if you were retired or had a little money set aside so that you could take a couple years off to give it a legit shot. Just seems most folks go into it without the right equipment to give themselves a chance. It doesn't have to be new equipment either, but you would have to figure 100,000 worth of equip including the sluce stuff to make a real go at it. Just my opinion....
Sorry for taking so long to return a message firebird_ak as have been busy ! We are moved to the kpb as of 2013. Are you still in the area? regards AKDM