I went looking for engine bay parts for my Cat 299D, and every single salvage 2??D has caught FIRE. Like mine. I know the consensus is that the fans pull in dry leaves and debris, but the turbo lighting that? I don't think so. Some have said that the relays above the battery are cheap and start the fire, and I've seen evidence in most machines that that was a hot spot in the fire. And when insurance companies find out about the debris they deny coverage for "lack of maintenance" (debris) even as it seems to be an electrical problem. Does anyone know more about this?
I cant directly comment on your specific model, but I have personally seen cases where dry leaves and debris has caught on fire from the turbo on many other machines. So yes, a turbo can cause fires. I'm sure someone here can chime in on the relay fire theory, which is also a entirely possible cause.
The turbo doesn't get red-hot, which is what would be needed to ignite dry leaves.
"Red Heat." Dictionary of Science and Technology. New York: Larousse, 1995. "As judged visually, a temperature between 500 °C and 1000 °C. " Auto ignition temperature of "forest fuels" is 204–260°C (forest fuels included dried leaves, dried grass, and muskeg materials) source: http://wildfire.fpinnovations.ca/39/ATVFinal.pdf I can say with certainty that your exhaust system is reaching temperatures in excess of 260°C, and more likely normally operating in the 300-450°C range. Turbo fire is just as plausible as a electrical fire.
Maybe I've come to the wrong place.
Maybe you have, if you can't take constructive criticism. He's not trying to say you're wrong,he's just pointing out that it's totally possible that a turbo/exhaust could catch dry leaves and grass on fire… BTW, welcome to the forum, there's a ton of knowledge and helpful people here, be patient, and read replies with an open mind and someone I'm sure, will have a answer for you.
It's not about not taking criticism. I didn't see any criticism there. It's about my implicit concern of electrical fires, and how apparently that's not recognized and this has immediately gone off the rails.
It is very hard to keep a discussion on the rails here or any type of forum. You just have to kind of roll with it, but you will learn if you stick with it and glean what you can.
I read this thread this morning, and thought of commenting, but there wasn't time. First, Quantum, welcome to Heavy Equipment Forums. I don't think "criticism", constructive or otherwise, is the right choice of word anyway. I think it was more a case of somebody sharing a dissenting opinion, and backing it up with a source as well. Considering that the entirety of the discussion took place between the opening poster, and one other member, in the space of an hour and a half, of what could be considered HEF's off-peak hours anyway, I'd argue that the discussion barely had time to get on the rails. I think maybe you're expecting too much from this sort of venue. Just because nobody immediately posted a reply that agreed with you doesn't mean that there isn't somebody out there that has had a similar experience and can speak to your concerns. (Or not.) You just need to realize that you might have to wait for them to actually read and reply here, and that could take some time...
So, you want somebody to agree that the relays started your fire and provide the proof that will get your insurance claim approved? good luck. that's the problem with insurance, they only pay what they have to . I agree, electrical fires are common. Seen too many fires started from skid steers that hadn't run in hours, a turbo fire won't take hours to start up in my mind. On the other hand, there is a lot packed into a small space on a skid steer.
A relay is packed inside an insulated box with no direct access to flammable material to start a fire. I've looked at a lot of fires in machines as part of making a living. Electrical fires generally start from a short in wiring; usually from rubbing against something, rodent damage or impingement from something. Seen plenty of log loaders burn when the raised cabs were set down on stray wires underneath. I've seen plenty of oil soaked hoses and wires packed with woody debris making it very hard to tell if the fire was electrical, hydraulic hose pin hole, outside ignition source like burning brush to clear land, vandalism or arson. I've also witnessed a 988B and a D8K get a pin hole in a hydraulic hose which hits the turbo charger and turned into flame throwers. The operator on the D8 had some singe eye brows. There are very few experts that can look at a burned machine and definitively say what started it. Unless you were present when it started most of the time all you can do is make a WAG.
See it happening more often, more electronics means more wiring...turbos, more heat...add in emissions, owners that don't clean or inspect machines. Going to happen. Skidsteers are one packed together machine. A friend almost lost a new New Holland over a bird nest on the muffler. Ed
They put a rough spot on the back door to make it easier to strike the match
Speaking of off the rails I'd like to know more about insurance co's denying claims due to "lack of maintenance." That sounds like a BS reason one could apply to virtually any machine to avoid paying out. Anybody know what the threshold is between "lack of maintenance," and "good enough?"
I can only speak for myself. I just insured a new machine a couple days ago. It was for personal use, not a business, and maybe that is the different. But it's covered for any reason. I specifically asked about theft and fire and more specifically fire cause by say a mouse nest. Those suckers get into everything. I was told, if I lose the machine, it's covered.
[QUOTE="digger242j You just need to realize that you might have to wait for them to actually read and reply here, and that could take some time...[/QUOTE] This last part is the most important part to me. One has to understand this is NOT a paid 24-7 help site. According the the time stamp I see on the original post it was posted at a little over midnight my time if I understand the time stamp system. As I type this it is only a little before 9 am east coast time. So for someone to not be happy that they have not got the response they had hoped for would seem to be way off base. I would give the thread a day or two and not be too fast to discount the various ideas put forth. One of the best things I have seen on this site is the wealth of experience from around the world and the willingness of so many to spend at times hours looking up information and posting it in detail all just to help someone they never met or will ever see any profit from.
jacobd, Very good question wish I could give an intelligent answer! Does this insurance company think an operator is going to stop every 15 minutes and check to see if there is anything stuck up on the muffler/turbo. Just watch some farm equipment harvesting crops on a dry windy day. I'm surprised those machines get through a day with out burning up. On the other hand some of the problems are the people designing machines have no idea of how they are to be used or the conditions they will be working in.
Stupidity is covered on property insurance. There is no peril called lack of maintenance. Usually only intensional acts excluded from coverage. Put another way; not greasing a machine or not changing oil or not cleaning the debris out of hot spots and not fixing leaks is generally accepted as stupidity. It would be hard to prove someone intentionally did those kinds of things to cause an insured loss.
Yes they do. Have a look in the back at night when it's been working hard.
Not in a skid steer, but I recently had the experience of a fire where flammable material was ignited by the temperature of the turbo. To complicate matters even further, the turbo and the exhaust manifold had a heat shield over it as per the illustration below. IIRC in machines with exhaust temperature sensors monitored electronically, "normal" exhaust temperature is anything up to 750DegC. That temperature ought to be more than enough to start a fire if flammable material came into contact with (or even got close to) a turbo operating at anywhere close to that temperature.
Local widow let her late husband's mid size Cat dozer sit for approximately 6 months in a shed. Rodents built a mansion on the turbo and when the machine was fired up guess what? A nice fire erupted causing significant damage without the dozer doing any work. And yes the hot side of a turbo can get red hot.
I saw a hydraulic line get a pin hole on a D8K. The stream hit the turbo and the stream became a flame thrower. Saw a fuel injector line crack at the ferule nut and spray onto the turbo. Same result, nearly lost both machines.
The fire I referred to before was a pilot hydraulic hose failure inside the Hell Hole of a dozer that managed to spray forward into the engine compartment. Thank God for AFEX...!! I checked on the monitor system and I was correct. Anything below 750C (1380F) turbo inlet temperature will not generate an alarm on a machine with exhaust temperature sensors. For anyone interested here's a couple of photos I took years ago when investigating a fatal fire on an ADT underground. The machine burned to the ground and unfortunately the operator and 2 members of the rescue team lost their lives due to smoke inhalation. One theory was grease falling on to the exhaust about 6ft back from the turbo had spontaneously combusted. We did this simple experiment of heating a piece of 1/4" steel plate with a gas axe and then dropping a ball of grease on it. You can see that at 485C (900F) all that happens is that it smokes, although I'm sure if you had thrown a latch into it combustion would have taken place. However at 602C (1115F) the grease spontaneously combusts. I have a load of other photos at temperatures in between those two but 600C+ was the temperature at which the grease would burn without an outside spark every time. I'm fairly sure that lubricating oils would spontaneously combust at temperatures below 600C, and anything plant-based at temperatures waaaay below that so long as it was dry.