Did allis chalmers dozers ever come out with a power shift or are they all direct drive? Also who made a dozer with a 2 stroke eng in it I had a look at a tractor today with a strait 6 diesel Detroit in it and I don't know what it was I think it was a chalmers but ime not sure the older fellers on here should know.
Yair . . . Cam85 . Unlike other blokes on this board I have had been unable to remember model years and numbers. I'll post a few thoughts as (I think) I remember things to be and when I get it wrong some of the fellers here will surely set me straight. All the info is out there, there are several books available on the history of Allis Chalmers. My experience with the marque is limited to the larger tractors and I started pulling scrub and tanksinking on two newish HD21's in 1958/59. Those machines had the Allis Chalmers engine and a two speed transmission behind a master clutch and torque converter. The converter was interesting in that it utilised diesel fuel from the tank as the drive fluid. They had dry arse ends, huge oil bath air cleaners and were reasonable tractors. They would out pull the D8's of the era but the Cat's held together better . . . the thing I disliked most about them was the Le Tourneau cone clutch PCU. Then, in about 1960 we got a third (my) machine with an oil arse end and a beautiful front mounted Allis Chalmers PCU that I don't think was touched in over ten thousand hours. This machine was fitted with a custom made "V" blade and full width pusher and was intended as the centre machine when we started pulling with three tractors. Prior to acquiring that third machine we had leased a HD20 to prove up the concept of three tractor pulling. That old girl was a beast. Pretty much the same configuration as the first two 21's but like the HD19's the HD20's had a glorious howling 6-110 two stroke and I loved it . . . the smaller Allis's of the era all had two strokes (I think) from a 6-71 in the HD 15 right down to a 2-71 perhaps in a HD3. In the late sixties/early seventies they bought out a power shift HD21 and I believe we had the first three in the country. Those early machines were the most miserable, heart breaking, unreliable POS ever to come out of the US. they looked good on paper but they bloody near broke the outfit I was working for. Not one part of the rotten things would hack it in the scrub, you name it they broke it and Tutt Bryant/Allis Chalmers were not much bloody help. They had uprated the engines (I think to 275hp) and had an interesting three shaft two speed powershift with a modulating clutch in front of the converter. The side to side movement of the shifter selected range and direction and then you slipped it back into the slot to engage the clutch . . . in other words the speed and direction clutch in the tranny was locked up first and then, in effect a "master clutch" engaged . . . it worked real well while it was working and they were probably the most responsive power shift tractors I have ever driven. Cheers.
Ok I undersand about half of that I think I would have to sit on 1 and learn to fully understand properly. This is a bit off topic but how the hell can u pull with 3 tractors I have heard of it but i never did c and have never met anyone who has actually done it. This is a guess but the only way I can c this working is if the middle tractor had a lump of lead chain from the draw bar to the scrub chain but i have faith u. Will set me strait with wat I think I know. I grin from ear to ear ha haha. Cheers cam. Oh I was also wondering if there is a relationship between the allis chalmers and the fiat allis?
I ran a mid 50tys hd16b least I think it was mid. It had a allis motor and a powershift transmission. Was actually a decent dozer to run. Much quicker then the cats if that era. Allis did indeed us the Detroit motors in their early dozers. Neighbours got a hd5 with a loader and its got a little 271 Detroit. I always thought fiat had bought out the allis line but I may be mistaken.
Yair . . . Cam85 . As I understand internet forums it's your thread so you are allowed to go off topic. (big grin) As far as I know pf/l is quite right I believe Allis was bought out by Fiat . . . I doubt that he ran a HD16 with an Allis engine and powershift in the mid fifties though. I thought the development of the HD16 went pretty much in lockstep with the HD21. Three tractor pulling is very effective but you need to have a good team of operators who understand the technique. As far as I know we were the first outfit to try it in Australia. You are quite right, we used a lead chain on the centre tractor, length could vary depending on going but it was quarter to a third the length of the main chain . . . the chains were joined with special made up triangles with three holes for shackle pins made out of three inch Assab steel. Production was often double that of two tractors and in operation the third tractor was to some extent a free agent to wander around and lean all the larger trees . . . a soon as he paused the weight came off him and he could turn pretty much at will. If he started to spin his tracks with either the inner or outer tractor he backed up until both outside tractors took the load and began to spin . . . then he up it again. If the tree or stump didn't pop the tractors backed up onto the mound they'd kicked up from spinning and tried "rocking" three times. The centre tractor could mostly see what was happening and under his direction if it still didn't come the tractors repositioned so that a double chain was around the tree . . . it was surprising what would pop out of the ground when the three HD21's took up the slack. I would have loved to have tried it with D9's. The big advantage for us was that with the unreliability of the HD21's having three in the camp allowed the cashflow to continue . . . when one **** itself we would continue to pull with two, mostly you could just drop off the outside leg of chain. Cheers.
1956 Allis Chalmers HD15 pics and video of Detroit powered machine mentioned above.video- http://youtu.be/vLV6uyaxu_8
http://www.allischalmers.com Yes, AC made dozers with a clutch+tranny. Also torque converter. Also power shift. Fiat bought the construction division of AC. The ag division became Deutz-Allis, later part of AGCO. Andrew
Thank u all I really appreciate the the effort put in to try and help a young bloke learn. I would love to have a go at this 3 tractor pulling as a dozer driver I don't believe u call ur self 1 unless u can do it all. I imagine the inside tractor would have to b patient and the outside bloke would cover some country. I'm no stranger to the chain but 3 I reckon cornering would b the time consuming hard part. Trying to stay cost effective and productive all 3 drivers would have to be thinking the same it can be hard with 2. Is the chalmers much different from the direct drive cat tractos to drive like from the seat I mean much difference in lever position and so on I may have some pulling to do up the gulf with them and am trying to figer out if ime up to it or not b4 I set sail. Thank again. Even if it falls through knowledge is a good thing. But a converter running on diesel now that's hard to fathom and a dry ass end now that's streching my brain to breaking point. What stopes the drives from self destruction? Also why would u have a clutch and a converter in my mind that seems a bit odd. Either 1 or the outher right. Obvisually I'm in over my head with this one I just don't c y u would have a clutch and then add a converter to heat up under load unless the idea is to make it easier on the clutch 4 blokes that like to bring it past center in a hurry and I spose the diesel fed system would feed it cool fuel helping to keep temp down. Just a guess on my part though.
(A torque converter running on diesel is hard to fathom) The 15A (I think) series of CAT D8s could be had with a torque converter. The torque converter used diesel fuel. If I remember correctly they also has a small amount of drippage so it always looked like the machine had a fuel leak when left idling in one spot. Someone will correct me if my fog is a bit thick.
HD 20 was the first I think to come out with a torque converter and possibly last of the 15s also, the idea of using fuel from the fuel tank was that was a way of cooling it as it was returned to the tank but also gave the operator a warm ride with a tank of hot fuel behind you. The early D8s also had a similar system. After the GM engines in the early models AC started using Budah engines and eventually bought them out or merged with them and started making there own 4 stroke engines for there machines. HD 41 was the only one that didn't as it had the Cummins VT 1710 V12, come to think of it the 31 also had a Cummins. The idea of a converter behind a clutch is that a TQ multiples torque so at the point of stall it might be developing 2x the torque that the engine puts out depending on the stall ratio of the converter. In heavy going like stump removal etc it would save a lot of wear on the main clutch which on most machines in those days were all dry type until Cat bought out their oil clutches from the D6 up.
What he means by a dry backend is the steering clutches/brakes are running dry in a separate compartment, bevel gear and finals are running in oil.
Did some ACs come out with a wet clutchs and brakes then later on they ran them dry? I work for a guy that had HD11s and i thought he told me this.They were not powershifts he was very much aginst them.
Just to add a bit more about AC machines, the HD 14s came out in 1946 with the first TQs and the HD 19 also had them. In the HD 14 TQ drive, with the out put shaft at stall the torque increase was 4.3 times that of the engine but the engine speed was only reduced by 18% so that gives u some idea of what a TQ does. The TQ was invented by a german DR Herrmann Fottinger in 1910. AC took over the Buda engine Co in 1953 and began making their own engines from then on.
Yair . . . Cam85 . Discussion about working chain will obviously be of little relevance or interest to most folks but it's your thread so I don't think there is a problem with a bit of further discussion. Pulling with three tractors was not much different to pulling with two. You could pull at pretty much twice the width and had less holdups on snags. As mentioned up thread once the centre tractor slowed up to lean a tree the weight came off him and he could clatter around at will picking off the big ones. The idea was to bunt them with the corner of the pusher and then swing away and leave them leaning, the "V" blade helped with sliding off the biggies and of course it was good if you got tangled up with timber on the ground. Visibility could be a problem in the dusty red country and in heavy going where he had a lot of trees to tip the outside blokes needed to keep a good eye out they didn't overrun him with the chain . . . it was good pulling at night as you could always see the lights. Turning was no different to pulling with two. The three tractors dropped blades and drove straight ahead out into the pulled country at the corner then backed up straddling the chain, crossed it then drove forward and lined up in the new direction. Some outfits had strange ideas about the chain and I have seen blokes stuffing round with swivels. Not necessary. We never studied the chain, and crossed it, twisted it, went around clumps of timber with "half hitches" on the corners and what ever . . . the main thing was take it easy crossing and don't pick the b*****d up. Now back to those tractors. When I said "dry arse end" I was talking "old timer talk" meaning they had dry steering clutches and brakes . . . the advent of "wet arse ends" was a huge step forward, they lasted longer and when they did wear out they were so much more civilised to work on . . . if you ever have to work on the black sooty/greasy components of a dry clutch tractor you will soon see what I mean. I will stand correcting but I don't think Allis ever offered the HD21 as a direct drive tractor . . . that is to say gear only and no torque converter. The setup on those early tractors was a dry left hand operated over centre clutch (we used to run them at sixty pounds snap over . . . I think), the fuel torque converter, and then a short drive shaft into a two speed forward and one reverse gearbox . . . there was no forward and reverse lever. The passage of time has taken its toll but I think low gear (depending on load) could run up to just over 3mph and second gear close to 7. It could be strange to watch them working. Pulling open country you could decel and slip them into second and they would run along in a series of "smooth jerks" . . . the tracks would actually stop for a few moments when they hit a load. It was very disconcerting for mechanically minded folks who had no knowledge of torque converters . . . it looked like the clutch was slipping. And slip they did, that's why we kept them adjusted tight. For a time we tried "rocking" trees on the steering clutches reasoning there was more surface area to take the load . . . didn't work burnt out clutches and so we went back to "rocking" on the master clutch. One "problem" with torque converter tractors was you couldn't push them to start them and I think Allis was unique in that when the power shifts came out they had a sprag clutch and a charge pump that allowed for push starts in reverse. old-iron-habit . Yes, I believe Cat bought out a D8 with a similar torque converter . . . no doubt with different turbine and stator. The story was they were "doughy" bastards and it seems no matter the configuration those style converters had more "bite" at 2100 revs than they did at 1300. And yes I seem to remember counting drips of diesel coming from a seal . . . there was a spec that stated permissible drips per minute. Hope this is not boring everyone too much. Cheers.
That is interesting R.D.G013 . Yeah .... My first dozer was a 1956 Allis Chalmers HD16AC . It had the clutch & diesel fed torque converter . It also had a heat exchanger on the engine that helped cool the diesel fuel . I loved that tractor , after you put it in gear and pulled the clutch lever back it was just like operating the newer power shift dozers .Had 3 speed forward & 2 in reverse. Never had a bit of trouble with it and was a pleasure to operate . What beat all was the converter never leaked a drop of fuel , and diesel fuel will find its way to a leak about as easy as anything .
I never got to operate a TQ equipped AC did used to operate an HD 14 with a Baker blade and a D8 8R, the D8 u could lug down until u could count the pots firing and it would still push, the 14! once the revs dropped a bit it went out like a light, didn't have near the lugging ability if the D8. I guess thats the difference between a 4 1/4"x 5" motor and one having a 5 3/4"x 8" bore & stroke, the long stroke does it.
That sure would make a difference . Yep.... the 2 cycle Detroit's don't like to lug at low rpm's .
Here's a pic of the 16B that I was running for a friend for a short bit just to fill in for him while his operator was gone for a while. I don't know the year for sure. They way we had talked about it, it was said to be from the 50tys. I haven't had enough to do with them to know for sure. Ryan
That's a nice looking Allis dozer pf/l . It's not a 16B but looks like a mid to late 1960's HD 16 DP . DP stood for ( Direct Power ) Power shift transmission .
It's possible. I was going off memory and what the owner was telling me at the time. Was actually the first dozer I ran so I was less concerned about details at the time and more concerned about fun.lol.. Spent most of the time on it push loading ts14 scrapers. Did some dirt work with it but not allot. Training session was here's the thottle here's the brakes have at er.lol.. Ryan
Oh ok now I understand thank u everybody 4 ur input.now I'm dying to get on 1 I can c the advantage in both a clutch and a tq I'm guessing but I reckon this would b a dream set up for a blade plowing and pulling. Now I think about it I have seen ( dry set ups b4 in my mid teens I sat on a d4 5u ). Thought I was king ding ha ha I stuffed up right royally I did dent realise u had to constantly oil the trust bearing ( throw out bearing ) by hand with a oil can! Now that was a hard lesson. Hey scrub don't worry about boring people I find ur posts to b quite educational and interesting and appreciate u taking the time to pass on ur knowledge now ime just busting to have a go at 3 tractors on a chain. This v blade u mention I don't suppose any body's got a picture of one. Cheers cam
Most likely..... there was also the DC, the tc stick shift version, or the D, the oil clutch only, stick shift. I never did see a DC in the flesh, but I've spent a little time on the others as well as the B series. Always wondered why they dropped the power assisted brakes on the B series, those older tractors were pretty light on their feet. Cheers, Greg
Heck, never mind the 2 cycle Detroit's not liking to lug.....Try and lug them low enough and you'll end up running the engine backwards! Andrew
Aint that the truth Andrew_D . Yeah... What caught my eye is what looks to be the shift tower on the dozer in the picture that pf/l posted . That makes me think its a HD16DP, (power shift) .
Some of the newer AC when they got screwed with Fiat also used a Iveco engine the FD30 was one the replacement for the HD21 and the smaller machines all had a off brand engine in.
Yup was definitely a powershift in it. One thing I didn't like the best was the blade control on the dash rather then off to the side of you. I got used to it and it didn't bother me to much after a while but I thought it was a bit of a odd spot for one. The owner of it now has a 7h as well as the allis and said there wasn't as huge of sufferance between the two as one might think. The 7h has taken over as the main crawler now though. He's asked me a few times to buy it but I don't know how serious he actually is. I don't really need another older crawler here anyways.
A great many I work with that are more competent operators still say they wish the Allis line had continued. First out of the gate in the morning and first to leave with the job done at night was one response. Old machines were tough, have stayed the course of time even with lack of parts and manufacture for some thirty years now, some machines are 50-60 years old and still working daily, a local cable layer(underground) has a small fleet of HD16's, other than the parts issues that they have learned to work around the machines are used daily, the oldest was semi retired to a flagstaff support along I-70 at Jonesburg MO, it is on Google Earth, south side of the highway just west of the exit. That machine is a 60's vintage.
Not sure how clear these will be but I ran this machine in the early 70's, an AC 11B I believe it was. It was powered nicely was a nice dozer to operate.
Yair . . . Just to mention in passing. The fact that the standard General Motors two stroke wouldn't lug was only a problem to those who didn't understand them. They were nice and responsive and with a decent clutch and gearbox it was never a bother to down shift . . . it was the gear driven supercharger pressure dropping off due to low revolutions that made them choke and the adding of a turbocharger could turn them into beasts. Their biggest problem for a driver (in my opinion) is they had less engine braking capacity than a four stroke and in an era before retarders and exhaust brakes there were some hairy times on hills. Cheers.
Just a toy compared to what you guys are talking about, but when I was a kid we had a Model M. Had a multi-fuel (made the most power on gasoline) 4 cylinder engine, four speed gearbox and a hand clutch. Good Lord it was loud, there wasn't a muffler made that it wouldn't scatter over the countryside in microscopic pieces. As a kid, I loved the starting drill. Full choke, hit the starter and it said PAP! Go to half choke, hit the starter again and it said puhPAP PAP! Choke off, hit the starter and away it went. Pushing a big load it would lug down to a skosh above zero rpm, then just dig it's heels in and keep pushing.
I thought that looked like a shifter tower in the picture . My buddy had a HD 16DP and now that you mention it I remember blade control being in an odd position . We have a 16B , they made quite a few changes on that model .
First dozer I ever ran was a AC HD21. ours had a hydrolic blade so was a Cadillac! was about 16 years old and maybe 120lb soaking wet. remember scooting up to front edge of the seat cushion (a big stack of foam and some rags) to brace my hind end on the edge then have both feet on 1 brake and both hands pulling the steer clutch to turn the bad boy. Engine sounded real man. they don't make em like that. was fun to run fo sure! Shove a load up the pile, decelerate and lift blade, coast to a stop as pull clutch, grind into reverse, throw clutch and back out of decelerator with a nice black huff up out of the chimney. been 25 or so years ago and still can almost feel it.
A good HD6 set you back $15000 in NZ , popular machines for farms , most farm machines would not do 100 hr's a year , so live long lives . 3 HD16's seem permantly for sale , one $10000 with the seller adamant it won't be sold for parts ,[[[ As is Where is will not sell as parts Price is firm no offers thanks pick up Winton Questions through( contact the seller only)]]] too much of his own skin on her perhaps .
Allis purchased Buda in 1956 or 1957 that when they quit using Detroit’s. Lee
GM had also moved on Euclid machines where the competition was hurting AC, dropped the two strokes about the same timing.
That is correct!.. I owned an HD6, other than that very little Allis crawler experience. A friend in Iowa used to be in the tileing business, owned many Allis crawlers, in his opinion an HD21 was made to pull a tile plow, better balance and much more ground clearance than a D8 (Owned both). When the Allis engine went south he would repower with an 8V71... Lee
Then it mimics a old Euc Terex.