About money owed you for work you perform. I have a customer that has gotten way behind on an invoice I have out to him. He kept me up to date in the beginning, but now is avoiding me for the last 8 weeks. This is not a brand new customer, but I have done a few jobs for him over the last 2 years, and I usually have to hunt him down at 60 days to get my money. The customer is not someone I do a lot of work for, so burning this bridge with him at this point isn't really a concern. Im currently contemplating what would be ethical in getting this money collected. Im running out of time to file a lien, and small claims court might get me a judgement and that's it, besides costing me more money I probably wont get anyways. In the past in these type of situations, I would write this off as a loss and move on. I fear the only way I may get this money collected is to disable the machine, or to remove the items I paid for to fix it for him. Im sure many of us have run into this issue before, so im looking for advice, or past experiences from others. I don't want to be a huge Ahole, but I can if necessary. I would like to come up with a more diplomatic way to handle this, but without communication, that is impossible. Thanks, Jeff
I had a similar experience w/ a new pump I HAD TO BUY.. cost me 1200. I think.. The guy is a DNR agent so I didn't push the issue.. I wrote it off as experience and never did business w/ him again.. When I told the story to several people, they ALL said the same thing.. you'll NEVER get your money back.. he's a looser.. cut & run.. So I did.. Some folks said, go back & take the pump off.. BUT like I said, he's a Govt official and has unlimited power.. so THAT was out of the question.. Kinda depends on your financial situation too.. IF you can afford to take the hit, just remind the dirtbag that you haven't forgotten.. and spread the word.. Sooner or later he might get sick of hearing his name smeared & pay up??
Depends on how much you want to mess with it. Get the judgement and hire a collection agency. The one I'm familiar with charges 30% of recovered. Sounds steep but %70 of anything beats %100 of nothing everyday.
It doesn't cost much to file a claim in small claims court. Here if its under $5,000, you just stop by courthouse and fill it out yourself. costs around $75-$100. I did it once 20yrs ago and the guy paid 2 days before the court date. Personally I would spent $500 to get $500 from a deadbeat. I don't like doing a job on good faith than not getting paid. luckily I have only had it happen to me the one time.
Fill the Lien!
Ditto the lien. And small claims court. It's easy, and deadbeats always eventually forget their debts, but the court house papers don't.
Yep, file the lien and then just wait. May take a long time but sooner or later karma will catch up. DO NOT go messing with the machine or removing parts unless you get an iron clad opinion from a lawyer first! In some states you could end up in jail or prison as dumb as that sounds.
That is why I ALWAYS get at least parts money, or half the bid up front, at least it's not a total loss if it goes sour. Definitely go for the lien and stay away from the machine unless you can get a mechanics lien that will let you repo the machine if not paid in time.
Lien and if you know a lawyer a strongly worded letter sometimes works wonders. A solid date he must respond by and if not then court and if he doesn't appear then you have a judgment. It costs some to do that, it boils down to your desire for drama and bs. Small claims works too. That would end in a judgment as well most likely. Getting paid off of it is another story.... a demand letter from a lawyer has always seemed to do the trick for me. Anybody who's a deadbeat knows they can string a collection agency out for months if not longer. Something about being sued and having to pay lawyer fees and interest on top of the original amount seems to get their attention. Junkyard
file the lien, then you get to claim the loss on your taxes and have your accountant file a 1099 for the amount he owes you, anything he doesnt pay is considered income he has to pay taxes on, usually when I send a letter that a 1099 will be sent to the IRS , they come up with the money...I have a friend that is a mason, and every chimney hes does he puts a plate of glass half way down that blocks the flue pipe, after the people pay in full he goes on the roof and drops a few bricks to break out the glass, then he gets the bricks out of the clean out on the base of the chimney..
My father taught me many years ago that some customers are worth letting slide. He also filed many a small claims form on non paying customers. The difference is the amount of cash involved and whether or not you wish to do business with that individual again. Me, I still have a customer that owes me $100 for dozer work done long ago. He was a pain to deal with and it was worth the $100 to get rid of him. He has never asked for more work by me and I'm fine with that situation. More money than something that trivial, I will likely be working on a small claims form and/or liens. Off the record, I have an evil mind geared towards retribution but I don't want or need the hassles that could occur with that avenue of approach.
L O V E the glass in the chimney idea.. CLASSIC..
And I remembered another local contractor who's customer decided he should only pay 1/2 of the contracted price (likely hourly work) because the dozer spent 1/2 its time in reverse and was not really working. The customer complained he was being ripped off. The contractor got pissed, got back on the dozer and started filling the pond back in. The customer decided to pay the billed price and keep his pond.
I had a similar experience and it's one reason I don't do residential or general public work anymore, only commercial or people that I know personally. The little project came through a "friend of a friend" and was just a small fill in job. The project consisted of leveling out a vacant lot in a subdivision next to the "friends" house so he could build a playground for his grandchildren. Met the man on the lot, he told me what he wanted and I quoted a fixed price of $1000, including mobilization. Sent the loader over with operator and he completed the job to the man's satisfaction, complete with "that looks great". A couple of days later I get a call from the man and proceeds to tell me he doesn't think he should pay the full amount because the operator spent too much time on his phone and smoking cigarettes, never mind he completed the job to his satisfaction and agreed on the price. I knew what his game was at that point, he had already gotten what he needed and I haven't been paid. Told the man you pay what your character thinks it's worth. I got a check for $700 in the mail a few days later.. I summed it up as this man's word and character was only worth $300 to him and that's a pathetic excuse for a man.
I do a lot of grass cutting. I am reminded of one customer, a "noted author" who always bragged about sitting on oprah's couch, or so and so's couch, on TV. Anyway noted author owed me $400 for the last season's work, I tried all winter to get him to pay up. So anyway, he calls me up, says can you cut my grass, its getting pretty high. I say Sure, if you pay me what you owe me for last year, I'll start you a new tab. So I drive out there, make 2 rounds around the edge of the lawn, and a diagonal stripe, down the middle, and stop at the front door, collect my check, load my mower and stop by the bank, on the way home, and drop his check in. 2 days later he calls, and asks is something wrong with your mower? I sez, No, I got no problems in the world, now... My point in relating this one is don't let 'em get ahead of you, arrange to be paid. I would think a piece of plastic, wrapped around an air pipe, hidden by a hose clamped down over it, might get HIM to call YOU for another repair... And another opportunity...
You're not being the huge Ahole, the guy that owes you is. My dad always said to never feel bad about asking to be paid for work you did. If you can file a lien do it right away. A lot of places charge 2% interest per month on overdue accounts although you can't sue for the interest.
I might let some hard-luck guy off, but any government official who uses his position to swindle me on a business deal deserves whatever he gets.
I hear ya CHECK.. I use to spend almost every waking hr on the water & a Dept of Natural Resources guy, rubbed the wrong way, could make my life extremely miserable.. taking time off of work to fight bogus tickets, getting stopped to check fishing licenses every couple of hrs.. and lets not talk about the dreaded breathalyzer...so I let it go.. I was in "fishin court" one time & a guy was in there w/ a ticket for having A MONKEY in his boat.. LOL.. come to find out, theres no law against it.. lol
Good friend runs a concrete finishing business, Got a driveway and sidewalk done for a customer, customer says its perfect, but I'm not going to pay for it... I remember a time when that customer would have had the charge taken out on his *** by this guy, but instead the next day he showed up with a machine and breaker and started unloading it in front of the customer. Customer ran inside and got his checkbook fast and in a hurry.
Small claims as mentioned if the amount is small enough. I did it once also, took down a motocross track for a guy, I guess since he didn't want it anymore he figured he didn't need to pay or return my calls. I sent the summons via the sheriff, when we got to court he admitted owing the money and made payments plus interest until paid. I don't like being a hard *** either but you can't let people run over you.
I got rid of a hippie, that wanted his garden plowed, today. Had 1-1/2' tall grass and broom sedge in it, indicator of acid soil. When I mentioned that he might want to have the soil tested, he went off and arrogantly said he was gonna do it HIS way. I then told him I would have to mow it first, then plow, then disc. And that I charge for all those services, too. Got a bad vibe from the AHOLE, that he didn't have any money to pay me, anyway, so I broke off the call. He called back while I was lookin at another job, I said I was in a meeting and would call him back. NATURALLY, I didn't... He called back again, today, askin if I would take the job, I said NO. Dead air on the other end of the line, he then asked if I was booked up 60-70 hrs a week. I said, no, just enough. Hope I gots him just mad enough to not call me again, EVER! Sometimes you just have to go with your gut, and eliminate the problems, before they start!
I know what you mean Dave.. I got paid in chicken eggs & pizza one time !!! I never returned another call from him again.. Lol..
In OK; if both of you are residents there, and amount you need to collect is $7500.00 or less, you can go thru Small Claims Court yourself. Check this for some info to reassure you. http://www.okbar.org/public/Brochures/smallClaimsCourt.aspx . In MS, you get a judgement. Then you enroll it on the Judgement Roll at the county courthouse. It is good for 7 years and can be renewed if you do it before the 7 years is up. From this, you can garnishee his bank account. Let things cool a month or so if he has not come across. Then just call his bank and ask if a check on (his names account) (for amount owed you) would be good today. If so, jog down to the county clerk and fill out the request. Any property or assets he should sell will be examined by the purchasers attorney. Per the judgment roll, you will be paid before the purchaser gets title. Beautiful lever. If he dies, most insurance companies check for outstanding judgements before settling a claim. If he has property he rents out, you can garnishee the renter for the amount of rent. Any funds you can find due him, you can seize en route from the payer to him. Grab him and Growl...
Another way the judgement will collect is if he goes to get a mortgage in the future, the bank will make him pay the judgement before the loan goes through. That might go for other secured loans also? All true IF he has assets. If he owes more on the machine than it's worth, and has no other assets, then your judgement might not get you anything. Banks have never told me if a check was good or not without actually presenting one. In my state, I can look up judgements and convictions online. If he already has lots of unpaid judgements, there's no point in adding another one.
Everyone has assets. Wages, auto, pickups, boats, bank accounts, etc. Everyone has money, and pay for water, gas, and telephones (directly or indirectly). Time is a great collector. The sick get better, the lame get crutches, poor eyesights improve with glasses, better jobs come along, relatives die and leave, money, etc. Get a judgement and enroll it. Time will pass and he will chuckle and forget. Time is you friend. Money or assets will appear. Then, the judgement will rise to seize. Surprise, surprise. And the money he owed and all court costs will be collected. If you have an established business, you can probably get a one off credit report and get a good handle on where his money is coming from and going.Wait patiently, then when he is least expecting it, and is preparing for a good time on a windfall, pop him. The money you put out on this is like buying insurance on a sure thing. I can cite a very interesting experience regarding judgements and time passsing if anyone is interested.
Td24, you can't stop now, now you've baited the hook!
Hah… Caught John Shipp--- See, patience works. My middle daughter married a nice enough young man in 1992. Handy fellow and kept a series of fairly good jobs for 3 years. But then he got on the local city police force and began to get the attitude. 3 or 4 years later he applied the attitude to her one day and she simply departed and filed for a divorce. In settling on property division, he wanted the house. She had put $1400.00 in down payment on it of her money, so OK, pay me the money and you can have it. He did not have the money, so the judge gave her a judgment in the proceedings, that whenever the house was sold, she would get her money. Time passes, she remarries and ends up living in Texas. Ex husband moves from the city police to the County Sheriffs force. Time passes. Ex husbands mother dies and he inherits a house in the next county. Sheriff does not allow deputies to live outside this county, so he gains police employment in another small nearby town. Now it is 2004 Ex is to sell their house and move to the inherited one. He calls her, the realtor has brought up this little matter of the judgment. He wants her to release it, so he can sell. She tells him pay up, and then she will release it. He blows his top over the phone. He gets an attorney. Attorney calls her and sweetly tells her to release and in closing they will pay her. She sweetly tells him to advance his client the money, remit it along with a release, and when it becomes cash, she will sign and mail him the release. Attorney replies that time is of the essence; sale is in jeopardy, must have a solution NOW. She suggests that if this is the case, then here is an immediate solution. My father (TD24) still lives there. Call him, and tell him to please come to your office and pick up my money IN CASH. Ask him to call me when he has it, and I will sign and fax back any release you fax to me. I became aware of this going on when I received a call from the attorney asking me to please come and pick up a payment owed my daughter and call her and tell her I had it. I went, I called, attorney faxed, she signed and faxed back… Deal Done. Time is your friend in compound interest and collecting debts owed you
Like the boys said small claims court works. Get it filed (customer will have that charge against him too) then wait for the court date. Be there with all your paperwork. Then if you are successful before the judge, then find out if the fellow has any asset that are paid for. Then execute a sheriffs order on that asset. The sheriff will retrieve it and get you your money. You have to be a pit bull and keep it going. Also, if he hasn't paid by the end of the year send him a 1099 christmas present. The judgement will not be open ended, so you will have to renew it if it goes that long.... like I said be a pit bull... so some other fella doesn't get stiffed from this same dead beat..... file asap!!!
This is the principle of the matter. Granted some cannot pay for legitimate reasons, but most deadbeats are career deadbeats and proud of it. By letting him off the hook you make things worse for the next guy that does business with him.
It amazes me the lengths some people will go to, to avoid paying what they owe.
If you get a judgement in small claims court you can then ask for a sheriffs sale to sell enough of the crooks stuff to raise the funds. A few years ago a co-worker with a home welding shop welded a new floor in a local business mans big horse trailer. Just under $5,000. 00. After six months or so he took him to small claims court and readily got a judgement for the amount. After 30 days of non payment and no indication that payment would be made the court ordered a sheriff's sale to raise the funds. The sheriff whom was the debtors BIL commented that the debtor owed money on all his trucks and everything else. He had several semi's. The judge said to the sherrif, "then sell as many as it takes to satisfy the bank and the court order". A kid rode up on a bicycle with a check the next day.
One question I have to add in the discussion is do you have to have a signed work order to get a judgement? Reason I ask is I farm out ATV repair work to a local shop. He had a customer come in for his bike but said he wasn't going to pay for it. The shop owner demanded payment so the bike owner called the law who after responding, asked if a work order had been signed. Upon learning that one had not, the officer said there was no way to hold the bike owner to the bill and to release it, without payment!
I don't think the police are who make the rules. If there was a mutual agreement between the parties that work would be provided in exchange for payment makes it a legal contract. A signed work order helps but I don't think not having one totally kills a contract. If the shop and or sub contractor can prove the work was done should be a no brainer. It's not like he stole the bike, fixed it and then wanted payment for repairs.
return the atv, sans all new parts, and adjust anything back to the way it was...
Great comments! I'm still trying to decide what to do. The fact that I can drive by this customers place and see the machine working daily keeps this constantly on my mind.
A cousin had a similar problem with a lawyer. Lawyer knew how to legally NOT pay. The DNR agent is a criminal, a Mafia "made man" of our time. He is comfortable with everything everyone else has mentioned to throw at him. He knows every judge has just nodded when he drags people into court. My cousin inadvertently used a something way outside the lawyer's comfort zone, and it might work for you. He'd complained about it to a friend with outlaw biker friends. Bikers "bought" the bad debt for face value, without his consent. They collected his and their share. I wouldn't deal with bikers, Mafia, LEOs, COs, lawyers, judges or addicts if at all possible. You will wish for old school broken kneecaps if he decides to make YOU pay, more than you have.
I know what you mean Wrench.. I could have EASILY gone that route too.. but you only have a limited # of cards to play w/ "those" folks & decided to keep them in my back pocket for a later date. "They're" good people to know, that's for sure.. cuz ya never know.. lol