I gave up on the JD, so now I'm looking at a 1990 Case 580K 4x4 Extenda-hoe. I spent several hours looking at it and running it, and it seems to work fine, and I think I want to purchase it. It does have some issues, but they don't seem to keep it from working. So my question, is there anything in particular that I should be looking for on this specific backhoe? The areas which I saw that need some attention are: 1. Loose pins where the hoe boom attaches to the swivel casting, and the casting to the frame. Probably 1/8"-1/4" in of movement on the various pins all through those joints. Is this too much? 2. Front axle king pins are loose, about 1/4" of movement when I grab the front wheel, with it lifted in the air, and tilt it in and out. 3. Front axle tie rod ball joints where the connect to the hydraulic piston. They look easy to replace, but are very lose. 4. Front driveshaft wobbles a little. The flange which attached to the Diff pinion is loose. Any advice on anything at all? The machine seems to work really well. I got to drive, dig, load, test 4x4, diff lock pretty much everything. Fluids appears as I would expect. Thanks, Garret
series 1 or series 3?
How would I know?
is the 4-speed shifter in the floor or on the right fender?
2) if it were a 2WD not much of an issue, 4WD will end up costing you
It's 4x4, the shifter is on the right fender. Which one will cost me? Please explain why. I'm planning to but it tomorrow.
2. Front axle king pins are loose, about 1/4" of movement when I grab the front wheel, with it lifted in the air, and tilt it in and out. "2) if it were a 2WD not much of an issue, 4WD will end up costing you" If it was 2wd then the front axle/kingpin would be simple, and not break anything more expensive by wearing out. The 4x4 front axle is more complex and will become much more expensive to fix as it wears out. It sounds like you're in way too much of a hurry to buy something. Slow down and enjoy the process, there's plenty of fish in the sea, man. If these are the things you saw, how many other issues are going to turn up?
Thanks for the advice. I was under the impression the vague statement "...4wd will end up costing you" was in reference to the transmission being series 1 or series 3. Regarding the front axle, I'm pretty familiar with 4x4's, and recognize that the front axle needs attention. I've done that kingpin job before on trucks several times, and it appears basically the same on this tractor. I've priced parts and realize there could be more than meets the eye. I might appear to be in a hurry, but I've been looking for quite a while. I'm not looking for an investment or to flip it, but I need one to use in a few weeks. I can't just wait forever until the perfect machine at an affordable price pops up. I would love to, but I need one to use. From what I've looked at so far, this Case doesn't seem that different from most I've looked at as far as condition and wear. These are 25-30 year old machines, and I'm just expecting to see wear and a few problems. Are my standards really too low? I do appreciate the help.
You are only seeing the visible wear. If the machine was not greased do not expect the rest of it to have been maintained. That being said they were a good machine in their day.
The serial number and the shifter location are good methods to determine 'series'. There are a few threads on here about the two different transmissions, etc associated with these two machines.
Oceanobob, thanks for the info on the transmission. Exactly the kind of help I need. Thank you. I studied the threads this morning, and have a better idea of the differences and potential risk/cost. Regarding the wear on the pins/bushings and front axle, I'm still at a loss to make any judgement, other than it's a used tractor that is worn. I just don't know how much wear is normal, or tolerable, or near imminent failure. Can someone give me an idea of how much wear is too much?? 1/8 inch of movement side to side? 1/4 inch? I know it's an old backhoe, I know if it looks neglected or abused on the outside, it could be on the inside too, like anything used. But everything seems to work fine on this machine except the lights. It was recently serviced by CASE and had a cylinder and couple other items replaced. Can a CASE dealer lookup it's record for me? This one looks like most every 1980's backhoe I've looked at. They ALL seem to have wear and loose joints. How do I tell that it's been abused or neglected? What I perceive is that it's just decades of wear on these older backhoes, and not necessarily neglect. I do appreciate the help from everyone. This is a learning experience and so far has been fun, especially getting so much free time testing them all out! Garret
4WD backhoes are obviously more desireable. But if you can get by with a 2WD I would recommend it. Putting $3-4,000 into a front axle, planetaries, etc is not unheard of
It's only you that has to like it and live with it. You can see the wear better than any of us. Good luck and have fun.
I don't think I can get by with a 2WD. I've had three backhoes up here before, and always 4wd because the operators said it was crazy to try with 2wd. Even then, we've had to winch one out a couple times. Where I'm going to use it is at the top of a ridge here in East Tennessee, in the forest, where there is no flat ground to be found anywhere, until I make it flat. I wish I could find someone with experience on the Case front axle. For example, if what I observed with the loose kingpins is nothing to worry about, or is it a sign that the whole axle will be trashed soon. It seemed to work just fine, both driving in the field, on the road, and with it suspended in the air, including turning from lock-to-lock. It runs quiet, best as I can tell. My gut feeling is that it's fine, but needs its king pins replaced and probably some shaft bushings and maybe bearings etc. The diff oil was full, no water came out. I didn't check the planetaries, don't know how?
Thanks. My problem is, I don't know what I'm looking at regarding the wear on pins/bushings or other unique backhoe components. I don't know how much wear is acceptable on the pins/bushings. I am much more comfortable with drivetrains and understand the differences in the phase-3 transmission now, but I still don't have a feel for the wear on the backhoe joints. Is 1/8 inch movement ok in the swing joints? 1/4 inch? 1/2 inch? Or are we talking thousandths?
If you need it right a way Rent one .A lot of the rental companies will sell as well . I would wait myself . Bin down that road . Or lease on short term . Repairs are a costly Bit ch . Sorry but I don't understand why anybody would own a backhoe for your own use .Unless it was put to work and paid by the hour . When I sold out I kept my backhoe , thinking I was going to put on 4 or maybe 500 hrs around my Land / not a chance . It just sat and sat . My advise rent one for a month and let us know how much you actually use it .You will find this will take the buyers remorse a little more softer with out the maintenance
I've rented many times, and while I recognize that it reduces potential risk to a finite amount, it also means I will have limited time to use it. My project will take many months to complete, as work will be intermittent in nature, therefore requiring several rental periods. There is also the additional burden of time spent with the renter, delivery, cleanup, and possible additional insurance cost. Last time this added up to about $3K, two times, for not very many actual hours on the equipment. This time I'm going to need it more, spread over a longer period of time, and so it seems worth the risk and cost of ownership to, well... in effect simplify my life and expedite the project. If it breaks, then clearly that is not a good option. But that's why I'm here, trying to learn what I can. So far, I get the impression that it is not recommended for anyone to own a backhoe unless it is nearly new. I understand waiting for the best option. But what exactly I would be waiting for? So far no one has commented on what would be wrong with this last 580K that I looked at, other than it is 4wd and a Phase-3. It worked great. Everything worked better than any of the other backhoes I've looked at. It powered into the hillside and scooped out more than a full bucket spinning it's wheels doing it. The hoe dug like crazy. It ran in all gears great. The leveler works, the boom lock works, the controls are tight, the motor seemed to run good. Other than the loose king pins and lose pins on the hoe, I don't see what is wrong with it. What would I be waiting for? What is wrong with it that I should wait? I'm apologize if I'm dense, but I just don't understand. If someone were to say "Hey, those pins are way worn out a 1/8 inch of movement, and it will cost a small fortune to fix them, or the hoe will fall apart" or "from what you describe that front axle is trash because of _____, a ticking time bomb", then I understand. But so far all I know from this forum is that 4wd will cost more, and phase-3 is harder to repair.
Re front king pins - No movement is perfect, 1/4" is getting too much - but it will most likely be repaired by replacing the upper & lower bearings. Particularly the lower. Not a huge expense to do - I would recommend it be done ASAP if you purchase the machine.
alrman - Thank you! That's exactly the kind of experienced advice I was hoping for. My experience with other vehicles that have open U-joints (not sealed in the housing) is that looseness in the king pins is not a terrible thing, unless extreme, even on portal axle tractors. But again, I know nothing about Case tractors. The front axle seemed to rotate quiet and smoothly and evenly, on the ground or raised in the air. One side just had a little bit of play, the other was noticeably worse, which is the one I'd say was near 1/4 inch play. Got an "Extreme" Tornado warning, got to hit the basement! Garret
You sound like you have a much better grasp of it than before, sorry to rain on your parade. I don't know how you're measuring 1/4" play in the swing tower, if that's at one pin/bushing then it's so far gone that you're not going to fix it right economically, if that's the total side to side sway (measured where?) and the backhoe operated alright by your feel, then you're probably not going to make it much worse in the next 1,000 hours, but your skills might improve enough that it starts to slow you down. There are aftermarket pins and bushings available for Case so you could tighten it up with a bit of money and a lot of time. Personally, I think a backhoe is the most suitable piece of equipment to have sitting around. Don't measure it's value to you by how many hours you put on it, but by how much time it saves you on a shovel, winch etc.
Delmer, Thanks for the advice on the looseness in the swing tower and hoe. The 1/4" is a very subjective measurement that my buddy and I arrived at when I laid the boom out straight with bucket resting on the ground, and then swung it right and left gently while we watched it move. This is watching it where the pins go through, not cumulative. Performed the same basic type of test for vertical movement too, and saw less movement on the horizontal pins where the boom attaches, but still there was very noticeable movement. Most of the pins/joints on the boom and stick had noticeable movement. Is the typical repair for this looseness replacing bushings and pins? Or, is there something more that is damaged? I too have always felt a backhoe to be a very handy machine. I surely wished I'd had one over the past couple years when I cleared about thirty 100 ft. trees on the property by myself. Or when spreading stone on the driveway, or lifting materials onto the roof or digging footers for sheds etc. Thanks again for the help.
Yeah, I've never understood the idea that you have to use something so many hours a year to justify keeping it around. It's not a space shuttle, or an aircraft carrier, you just need to keep the fuel fresh and air in the tires and it's there when you need it. If the bushings are still tight in the bore you should be fine with new pins and bushings. If the bushing is loose the bore is egged out and would need to be line bored to do it right, but you'd still improve it with a new pin and bushing. Like I said you can get Case aftermarket, I haven't found the Deere pins that I need aftermarket, so I live with the slop. From Deere they'd run near what I paid for the beast.
If the bushings are loose in their bores Ando repaired his himself. You may find his thread to be quite informative. Here is a link to the thread -- HeavyEquipmentForums
Any time I buy any equipment I take my mechanic friend. He has steered me clear of a few problem machines that appeared fine to me and ran fine. Would it not be a good investment to hire a professional mechanic to look at it for you. Even if it cost you 3 or 4 hundred dollars, its better then finding out you have a dud that is going to cost thousands. Never hurts to establish a relationship with a good mechanic when you own equipment. If you don't know yourself, you will calling one soon enough. Good luck on your purchase. By the way, I have an older jcb backhoe with the perkins diesel which I believe is what the case has. We have had very little trouble with and it has been a great engine in the 10 years we have had it.
This machine has a Case 4-390, which is a Cummins B3.9
Thanks for the advice. I'm going to look at it again, taking another friend who has 30+ years with heavy equipment. First time I took an AG equipment engineer, and between our collective backgrounds, we came up with what I listed here in my first post. However, although we are all very mechanically knowledgable, none of us are a Case expert, and that's really what I need. If anyone here knows of anyone in the Knoxville TN area who really knows Case, please let me know. And I like both Perkins and Cummins, but my favorite will forever be an OM352. That motor will run forever.
From what I can see you gave it some good inspecting, a lot of thought, and it seems like you could use one. But then there's the possibility it could break and cost more than if you rented.... all I can say is, if you want to know what is like to be an owner, then buy the machine. Owning a machine(s) is certainly a grand experience. Let us know what you decide.
You guys are about to scare me off! Are Backhoes really that much more prone to failure than other tractors and machines? Obviously I've never owned a backhoe, but I've rented several over the years, and really I've never had a rental backhoe break that I can remember, but obviously they were much newer than what I can buy. I've always felt like the backhoe is a pretty well evolved machine, unlike, say... ditch witches, trenchers and other goofy equipment that seem to break every time I rent one.
If you want one go for it. Don't let anyone hold you back, you can't buy a new Corolla for that much money. But its a used machine. I don't know where you fall but it seems most guys buying are looking for the "best deal" and can barely afford to buy a machine or put thousands into a repair that COULD (or never) come up. (me included LOL)
Well Scottgs, did you buy it? We are all hoping you achieved some sense of clarity and made 'The Decision'. I was looking back over this thread and I noticed you didnt make mention of the hours....not that it is a cure all to end all decision maker, but it is something that is taken into consideration. Also, any pictures? A camera makes these machines look good; I imagine you are fairly satisfied with the appearance.
No, I haven't bought it yet. Couldn't get together with the owner again yet. Hours shown are 2000+, but the current owner said the hour meter hasn't worked since he owned it, so I just didn't put any faith in it at all and I'm confident it's probably at least 6,000 or higher. He said he's had it for 12 years, and has always called the Case dealer for maintenance. It does have one new Case cylinder that was just put on it, so I hope there is some value in that, though probably not really that much. I just wish there were a way for Case to tell me it's history... Appearance isn't the best, and it's pretty clear it's never been repainted it and it definitely was not cleaned or washed before I looked at it. Plenty of dirt, grease, leaves branches and general construction debris in the cab, like most you see on a jobsite. But, that is fine with me, as that way I can see it in it's natural state, and perhaps also see that problems aren't covered up with new paint or grease. I do have photos, will post some as soon as they are developed. Even though this one didn't look as pretty as a the repainted ones I've looked at, one thing that impressed me is that the owner let me do anything I wanted with it, including digging into undisturbed ground, or run it all around. I also got to start it from cold, and run it until it was warm, which was about 2 hours of messing with it. That gave me confidence that I couldn't achieve with other backhoes I looked at, especially after two others sprung a leak before I could even really test them, and then there was one that the owner wouldn't let me run... I've seen them with cracks in the boom, more exhaust coming out the breather than the exhaust stack, and a battery held on with bailing wire and cinder blocks! However, on this Case 580K I'm considering, there are still some worn parts, and that's why I came here to ask for advice about the backhoe. I really didn't expect so much advice about whether or not I should or am capable of owning one. I kind of thought the forum would be more about the machines than the members! But, it's all good. I'm learning and appreciate all of the thoughts. Garret
I think you got excellent answers to the questions you asked. I don't remember a price being mentioned, no known hours, no pics, no purpose stated at first, and questions that could be seen as naive, kinda hard to say it's a good buy or not...
Delmer, I think I got some excellent answers too. I appreciate that. I think I also got some comments that didn't really add much, but it's ok, even the "drive-by's", I don't mind. I came with a few specific questions about this backhoe, and then one general one, and eventually they have been answered, thanks to the good members here. So just to be absolutely clear, I have never asked if this was a good buy, I didn't think it would be appropriate, and most forums that I participate in frown on such things, especially from new members. What I did ask is what to look for on this specific machine, and what the Case experts thought about the few things I noticed when we inspected and tested it. I'm not an expert on backhoes or Case, so of course my questions about the machine may appear naïve. If I knew the answers, I wouldn't be here asking for help. Garret
Scottgs ( Garret) Here was my Deal . My last machine was a mid 80s Case 580 Super E .I had put hoses on it over the years , tires , oil changes . etc etc .When I decided to sell it , I listed for 12000 . Sold the next day .That machine had 9000 hrs on it , It also had a bullet proof Cummins engine of which never failed .My backhoe did not have the power of the one you tested . It could not spin the wheels in a forward dig motion . It was tired but still ran and dug well . This was two years ago I sold it and to date the new owner just put on a new water pump .He has made well over $12000 running this machine since I sold it . Its a gamble , some you win some you don;t I started with a JD 310 went to a 580 B and a C and then a E and all were great . The B had some issues but we got by I think the members want to know how much you are willing to pay or how much is it up for
Scottgs, As your initial thread post ask “Any advice on anything at all?” I would add the following. The 580K is generally a good machine. I have its cousin a 580SK for several years and only had to invest in routine maintenance items. If I needed another machine for what I do, I would not hesitate to consider another K series. One item to point out to you is the K series is a “wet” chassis. Specifically, the hydraulic and fuel tanks are part of the chassis. This has its advantages, but also can be bad if the vehicle is abused. Therefore look for leaks around the load arm pins etc. Not that leaks can’t be repaired, only that the repair can be more involved. Also, any custom modifications to the chassis should consider that the modifications also affect the tanks. There is certainly a wealth of knowledge on this forum, and I think we have all learned from it. One observation though. If you start the forum thread header with the words “Any Advice” as you did, then be careful what you ask for, as you may get it.
I really don't want to publically disclose what the seller is asking right now, however I can say that what I'm expecting to pay is in the 10-12K range. From what I've studied on past sales, that is typical for desirable types of 4x4 backhoes of 80's vintage in my area. I've certainly seen where several have sold for less, but then several have sold for more. What I want is one that is as much of a known quantity as I can get, and which will do the job I need over the next year. I've seen some at equipment auctions go for less, but generally I can't have confidence in them since I can't work them to test. I fear one from an equipment auction might be a dog that a dealer is trying to dump with no strings attached, so I'd be willing to pay more for one I have tested, even if it appears more worn. I think the big question for me is how much wear is likely to make it uneconomical to lightly use for a year. In summary, it seems to work real well but those pins are pretty loose. Is that a really problem or high risk? I do appreciate the help and advice, and I mean all of it. Garret
I paid $19.5k for my 94 super k. It has a 4 in 1 and e-hoe. It had 3 800hrs I didn't find play in anything but the bucket. There may be a tad in swing cylinders, but hardly noticeable. Biggest thing you didn't mention checking was the front axle pivot did it have any play when you picked the front end up? How are the hoses? New or worn? You can get a lot of money just in hoses. Kingpins are probably about $500 just in parts and then while your there might as well check all other front end components. If your getting it for under $10k and have some $$ left for repairs I say it sounds reasonable.
Dixon, good questions! It's a 1990 Extendahoe, standard loader bucket (which looks good). Comes with two backhoe buckets, 24" and 12", both look good. 1. I did not check the axle pivot. See, that's why I'm here! 2. Most hoses look ok, some are new, but a few of the loader hoses are rough, down to steel and need replacing. 3. I agree on Kingpins. I figure $1k to repair the front axle, if I do it myself and I find nothing else bad. 4. I doubt I will get it under $10K. Garret
Finally got the pictures developed...
No, that's not a big problem for occasional use. I don't think 1/4" play side to side is any risk. You might decide that for what you do with it, the slop isn't a problem, just keep it greased and it's not going to get much worse over a couple thousand hours. Or the pins and bushings might be reasonable enough that you feel like tightening it up? I agree that buying something you can test is much safer than at an auction with no history.
if runs as good like that it looks, I would go for it 4 wheel drive, extend a hoe, tires look good, I like the 4 levers for hoe operation, it gives operators used 2 levers a new learning curve,, so you be even with them on operating it LOL.. seat no problem can turn a 5 gallon bucket upside until you get paid for 1st job GL
I like the levers too, probably because that's what I learned on, but I swear they feel more precise than wobble sticks. And I agree, it's amazing what you can do with a 5 gallon bucket, right up there with duct tape and bailin wire. And, no need to fix the seat swivel!
Thanks. That's what I'm hoping for, although I'm still not completely comfortable with the loose swing tower pins. The loose front axle kingpins don't worry me as much, but I realize it will cost to fix, and I have to fix them.
Delmer gave you good info about those swing tower pins and bushings. Grease them and do it often. But if the bushings have become loose in the tower bores and/or the mounting frame bores, and the pin has worn through them and is grinding out the bores, you will have a very expensive repair job. If the looseness is coming from wear in in the bushings and the pin, it won't take a lot of money to replace them if you can do it yourself.
Didn't get it. The owner sold it today before I could get over with the cash. I do have a suspicion that my posting about it here was a mistake. Another lesson learned. Garret
I think that was ok to pass on. It seemed a little rough and it was an open cab. Mine is enclosed with a/c and heat. I think you can find a better deal. Another Idk if I mentioned is check the floor by the wheel wells. The 89' 580k that didn't have the e hoe I was looking at I stuck my finger through the floor.. keep your eyes open there are some decent deals out there. I don't think I would of bought that one unless it was definitely under 10k.
Don't feel bad about posting questions here and tipping someone off about it. Maybe that is what happened maybe not. I would have passed on that one. The weather certainly takes its toll on the operators station. Especially the instrument panel and switches. Take your time and buy one with an enclosed cab. I know you have a lot of things you want done with a T/L/B but the wait for the right one will be worth it. When you find the right one you will know it in a heartbeat. I always believed that you should go by your gut feeling. Meaning, if you have any doubts about it pass on it.
I agree. My only real regret is that I spent so much time on it, it feels kind of like it was wasted time. But really, it wasn't at all. I've learned a whole lot and can apply that to make an even better deal next time. In reality, the only real issue is that I wanted to get to work with it ASAP while I have long days and good weather, which here in Tennessee that season is just starting. When I'm done with my project, I'll post it here. I can assure the forum that the members will be surprised, as it's very different, and has with a unique historical perspective on something not done much these days. But that's a year away, if I ever get a backhoe... Garret