Hi. New to the site and fairly new to heavyequipment. Bought a backhoe a couple years ago and a few months later it started toknock badly. Stopped running her immediately and after several years of looking I found a replacement engine.Wondering what i should replace on the “new to me “ engine before installing it. Rear main seal? Other gaskets ?...?? Or just install it as is ?? Also should I replace and seals like the converter seal? ( I have a power shuttle unit ) Any help and tips would be greatlyappreciated as I’m a bit unsure as to what I should pay attention to and what I can leave be. Old engine runs and has good spare parts but has a crank/ rod knock. With the cost of a crank and rebuild I decided to start with a diff engine and hope for the best. New engine is claimed to have about 3000hrs and was pulled from a running hoe. It has a clutch and flywheel that I will need to swap for the one off the original engine as it has a converter not a clutch. Any tips on swapping the flywheels around ?... I notice a few small diff in the engine castings but they r both 188engines. Thank in advance for any help. Heading out now to continue preparing for the split. Old engine is almost disconnected now. Just the steering rams, fuel lines and throttle rod , hyd pump and radiator to remove and a few other small things. Then it’s time to block the old girl up and split her in half. Never done this before and I’m working in a gravel driveway so fingers crossed it goes ok. Gotta use what u have and unfortunately I don’t have a shop or a cement pad , so level spot on gravel lane will have to do. Update. I had a good day today. Got the engine for all ready to come out. Tractor is on jacks and the bolts are all lose. Can rock the front tires and see the gap open up at the bell housing so it’s just sitting there now. Running outta daylight so time to clean up. Added some pics of it as of today’s progress. New to me engine is inside my lil workshop for prep work. Some cleaning and maybe some fresh gaskets and such. Might do the rear seal before it’s installed. ?? Gotta remove the flywheel and use my original
Looks good FF ! Yes, by all means change the rear crankshaft seal. Maybe the front one to. They will never be easier to get access to than now. Take a good look at the ring-gear to. If some of the teeth have a lot of wear you should change it. Depending on how the crankshaft stops rotating on shut down the starter will engage the same teeth quite often.
Never thought about the ring gear... I will check that tomorrow after I split the tractor. Are all crank seals for the 188 the same ? I’m unsure of the year of either engine. I notice that the one injector one the replacement engine looks to have a slight bend in it .. it’s not a lot but it’s slightly “tweaked” outa line with the others. On The orig engine all the injectors are straight and line up in a row much better. Will a slight bend damage the injector ? Should I attempt to swap injectors ? The orig engine ran well, started well just developed a knock. Fairly sure the original injectors are good but am nervous to attempt to remove them. Hope to have it split tomorrow. I’m going to look into replacing the seals front and rear and I think there’s a seal in the power shuttle converter or something I should replace when it’s apart. Hope fully I can find the proper seals for this old machine fairly quick. Thanks for the ring gear tip. Hadn’t thought of that.
If you swap injectors, replace the copper sealing washers on the ends. I'd have them pop tested while they are out if you have an injection shop around. The rear seal on that is probably a rope seal. If you've never changed one, you kind of have to do it right, and they still leak. You have to trim the rope seal once it is installed in the carrier, and it can be a real pain depending on the material used (usually some kind of graphite impregnated jute). Those are good engines. My dad had a Case 580B with a 188. That was the best starting old diesel I've ever seen. They made a gas version of that engine that was also very good.
Thanks for the replies and good tips. Any help I can get with this project is appreciated. Hope to get the original eng out today and get the new to me engine cleaned up and give it a quick inspection. Remove the clutch and swap over the flywheel and converter from the original. Another beautiful sunny day again today, how better to enjoy it than by being out in to , elbows deep in an old case backhoe . Hope fully the bent injector works and I don’t need to pull them. But I guess I can do that kinda swap once the engine is installed. Front loader pivots all need rebuilding as there wollered out bad but I will deal with them once I have a running engine. We pulled the loader to make engine repair easier and cause once it runs the pivots need work. I’m a welder for a living and have a small south bend 9 lathe I bought just for making bushings and parts for the old ck. Or ckb ? Still not exactly sure what one I have. I know it’s old and wore out. Lol was listed as a 580ckb but the serial is long gone and I haven’t been able to determine the year or model for sure. I believe it’s 67-69 and either a ck or a ckb lol. Thanks again for true tips. Will look closer at the rear seal. I ha e changed “packing” on steam seals before that used graphite rope so I wouldn’t be too scared off by that. I do have a manual on CD but currently have no computer to look at it with. Read lots of good info on this site, so I joined and posted this in hopes someone else on here has been here before and could lend some advise and share some knowledge. I’m pretty mavanical and can fix about anything but never done a backhoe like his before and any help for this who have might just save me a big mistake or save me from pulling it again to change something I could have done now when it’s apart. I’ll post some pics once it’s split later today. Pics in this post r of the new to me eng and my father in law helping me prep to split the eng.
Well had good progress today Tractor split went good. Engine is out and flywheel is removed. Does the alignment matter when re installing the engine to the transmission as far as the “basket teeth” and the transmission gear they mesh to (pic1&3) When removing the clutch and flywheel the new to me engine I found it has one broken off bolt in the crank stub that I will have to remove before installing the original one for the transmission. Now to clean up the engine that’s being installed and change a few seals and gaskets before installing it. Scraped 20 years of grime off the engine area lol Going to de grease and clean up as much as I can as I locate and order seals and gaskets, need the bell housing gasket, rear main seal, front main seal, oil pan gasket, valve cover and I’m sure a few others lol She came apart surprisingly well for an old machine and we only needed to heat the four big bolts at the end of the loader frames where they bolt to the nose piece, the pivot pin is kinda sloppy on the oil pan so I may look at repairing that a bit. Now to track down some gaskets and seals and keep cleaning the layers of crud and grime off in the meantime.. hopefully have the engine ready for install in a week or two, then to repair the loader pivots, the steering spindle bearings and steering ram on the one side, some leaky rams, a leaky backhoe valve... one issue at a time and none matter until she runs again lol
Good progress FF ! Sounds like you have done this before ! Keep those photos coming.
Lol. Thanks tinkerer. I am super happy with the progress this weekend. Actually I have never worked on a backhoe before this one. Done lots of automotive type work but never split a tractor or seen inside a transmission like this... still unsure about what all to replace and fix on the engine before installing it. Hope to find main seals and maybe do valve cover and oil pan gaskets as well. Need to find the bell housing and starter gaskets too.. hopefully the local case dealer can help and don’t want more than the old hoe is worth for them lol. Might have to shop online for the seals and gaskets. Few more pics too Will need to clean the rear main seal housing up good The orig engine rms housing is like new still cause it’s oil bathed where the replacement engine had a clutch and there’s a bit of crud around he rear of the engine. Maybe easier to swap housings and just replace the seal. Haven’t taken front pulley off yet to see how the front main is replaced, bud I did notice a fair amount of crud in that area leading me to think it may have been leaking slightly.. worst case I guess I will buy a full gasket kit with main seals, just hate to spend that much and don’t need them all at this point. Wish I could do a major rebuild kit and install the engine all re built.. but I just can’t afford the extra expense right now so I’m going to take my chances that the guy who sold me the new engine was truthful and it’s a good running engine.... or at least has a good crank and rods I could use to rebuild my orig engine as it runs great just knocks once warm Roll the dice and see I guess lol thanks for the replies I’ll try to add pics and update as there is things to update
You should be able to buy a "bottom end" gasket set with a front main, rear main, pan gasket, drain plug washer, etc. They are cheap. Probably less than $50. The front main should be a regular lip seal. Where you can run into trouble on those is if the damper or pulley has a bad groove worn in it. If it's badly worn, you can have it welded and machine down at a machine shop, or they can install a sleeve. Or you can replace it. If you pull the pan, make sure you flatten the flange with a hammer. The bolt holes are always puckered out.
Thanks Wes j. I will inspect the seal areas l once i have them out. I am a welder so I could build it up with the tig,and I have a small lathe ...so Long as the Pully is under 9”dia I could machine it myself as well( if it’s bigger I can have it machined ) . See what I can find locally for parts. The rear main has a cr number and looks to be a normal oil seal. Can I just match up an new seal and install it into the old housing? ... Cleaned up well of course lol. I’m more worried about finding a bell housing gasket actually. I see lots of kits online include the main seals but can find very little about the bell housing gasket ?... I doubt a bead of gasket maker would last like a new paper one will. And being full of oil I don’t want it to leak. I’ll see what the local dealer says in the morning and go from there. Thanks again for more good info.
That engine was used in all kinds of equipment, dozers, skid steers, tractors, etc. So, the bell housing will be specific to your machine. The dealer should be able to get one, or you can make one from gasket material.
FF would you do a fellow member a favor & look at your flywheel.. Is it possible to put it on wrong?? backwards, 180* out?? is it dowel pinned?? I'm asking because another member has been fighting one for years.. cant find any marks on his flywheel for TDC..& isn't mechanically inclined to watch the valves.. I figured since you had your out..?? Thanks, TPG
I will look tonight pump guy. It was not pinned tho I do can say for sure. I saw no marks on it yesterday but wasn’t looking real close either. Just four bolts and as I saw and nothing to allingn. The flywheel/clutch I removed has timing marks and such. It I’m he shuttle flywheel didn’t have any that I saw. But I will look closer and take some pics tonight and post my findings.
OK thanks.. I wonder if the bolt holes are "off-set"?? meaning they'll only go on 1 way or 180* out.. Anybody else know??
I didn’t notice them being offset. Looked pretty even to the eye-cromiter lol. But I will take some pics and look closer this eve after work and post what I find. Hopefully it will help the member. Only pic I have now is of when we first split the tractor and I took a shot of the back of the eng. holes appear evenly spaced , and when I set the orig flywheel in the new engines crank it matched right up So either I got lucky and it was offset with the bolts the first try or they are even and can go any way, if that affects timing or alignment I cannot say tho Hopefully someone knows so I can get it right for install as I’d hate to have to pull it again to re align the flywheel ...???
Well hell.. I didn't mean to open a can a worms.. lol or make you second guess yourself.. BUT.. If you wanna double check your work?? open the side plate on the injection pump, 2 flathead screws & rotate the engine over until the 2 lines meet.. 1 is stationary & 1 rotates. When they meet, look at the timing marks on the flywheel..I HOPE [for your sake] they're visible..
The flywheel I removed from the “new” engine had a clutch and did have timing marks. The flywheel I removed from the orig engine is for a power shuttle and as far as I can see has no marks for timing or for alignment with the part it meshes with on the transmission...???? The shuttle flywheel is in good shape and any marks would be visibale if there were any but I didn’t see any. I haven’t done anything with the inj pump or timing at all and am assuming it’s still timed and ready to run. Only concern I have with timing and alignment is if the power shuttle flywheel has to align a certain way with the trans side ? I see no obvious marks on either half. I have a CD manual for he old girl but no computer to look at it with... in the process of getting it printed and I’ll put it together in a binder. Maybe it will clarify things for me once I can see the manual.
I’d rather the can of worms get open now before I install it and find out it’s wrong hahahhaha. Much easier to adjust flywheel alignment now if need be. Lol. Have not installed the power shuttle flywheel yet ( only finger tight) as I need to change the rms for piece of mind ( not leaking now ) before I install and torque down the ps flywheel. The clutch flywheel assemble is in amazing shape with lots of clutch pad left and decent looking friction faces, It’s useless to me if anyone needs one cheap cheap lol. Shipping might be killer tho as it weighs lots hahahaha
I'm pretty confident that Case made a gas version of that engine. It's possible the flywheel timing is only use for ignition timing on the gas version. The diesel timing may all be under the cover.
Ok so I looked closer at the power shuttle flywheel and it only lines up one way best I can tell. U can see the broken off bolt ( I will remove that lol) is in one hole on the fw and the other holes do not align. Turning the fw until the broken bolt is in the next hole, again the others don’t align. Only one spot does all the holes align. Also I looked closer and there is timing marks on the ps fw. Can’t say that they are all like this one but I’m pretty confident hat the fw will only fit one way on my engine as the bolts seem to be slightly offset of center and they only align in one way. Does anyone know about the alignment of the power shuttle fw and the part it meshes with in the transmission side ? There’s two holes across from each other but that’s all I can find and nothing on the mating part I can find that would be alignment marks as far as I can tell by just looking. I attached pics face of the fw and of the holes mis allingned with the broken bolt in one hole and the fw on the crank flange. Also one of the tranny half that mates with the fw inner teeth. Maybe alignment of them isnt important? Hopefully someone will know or has a manual they might check for me. I still cannot access my manual on CD yet.
There we go! That's what we expected to see. You've got all the marks you need. I don't think the shuttle has to be timed in any way.
Thanks Wes j. I can’t see why it would need to be. But never hurts to ask... thanks for the help and replies to all.
If you need more info just ask .
Thanks for that Info. I’m confused a bit now tho..? If I understand right I need to align the flywheel and the other half ( shuttle?) to re assemble it ? I didn’t remove any bolts when i pulled the eng and it separated at the fw as pictured... if I install the fw on the new engine do I need to align it as it says in your post or can I just install it and make sure he teeth mesh together ??? Sorry just wanted to ask. Looks like I need to get access to a CD reading devise and or get my CD manual printed out I know I’ll need it for some torque specs but this alignment sounds critical and is a fairly small tolerance. I didn’t try to pull the part off the tranny side. I did spin it around a couple times tho
The info on the page I posted only refers to the flex plate FF. Nothing technical about sliding the convertor and shuttle into the flywheel. Don't force them together, they will slide together with ease when they are lined up correctly. Cut the heads off of a couple of long bolts and use them for alignment aids.
Phew!!! I was worried there for a min that I had some highly technical alignment to do upon installing the engine. Thanks for clearing that up for me. Lol. Going on a hunt for seals and gaskets today. Fingers crossed I can get them locally.
Just found this thread after replying to the one in general industry questions! Sorry y’all I’m new. Glad to see everything going well Funny Farm.
Well I was able to get all the gaskets and main seals at the local case dealer. Unfortunately I think the engine I bought was hat was supposed to be a running engine is bad... if I roll the crankshaft over ,I can get about 3-4 revolutions and then it locks up and I can hear a metallic noise in the bottom end. Planned to swap the pan gasket and main seals anyway so I guess I’ll see how bad it is once I drop the pan. Haven’t been able to work on it since I realized the crank won’t keep turning. Turns a few turns and stops then can turn the opposite direction a few turns and stops again. Ugh...... might be the end of my project if this engine is bad. If it is damaged my only hope is that the crank is useable and I could possibly use the crank and rods to repair my original engine. It runs but knocks. If the crank is bad in this eng too then I’m likely going to part out what I can and scrap the rest. Very discouraged at the moment..... kinda angry at the guy who sold me the “ running engine “ and at myself for taking him at his word and not inspecting the eng better. I did roll the crank to make sure it wasn’t seized but didn’t roll it enuf to hit the spot that it locks up. The good news is the eng has a good inj pump. Steering pump, and lots of good parts. I’ll post what I find when I’m able to get back at it.
Pull the valve cover off and see if a valve is stuck. If it's been sitting a long time, it's very possible.
Ok thanks. I will look at that. I have Valve cover gasket and planned to change it before the swap. If the engine sellers story is true it was pulled from a running ckb about 2years ago and was kept as a spare. Didn’t look like it had been cleaned up and didn’t show any big oil stains or gasket leaks so I assume his story is true?.... hopefully it’s like U say and a valve is stuck or something minor. Makes a click kinda noise as it stops. Could be cam lobe touching a stuck lifter ? Hadn’t thought of that. I kinda thought the worst right away and that it was a rod or crank issue ,cause the noise was low in the eng. really hope it’s a useable eng.... might put the project on the back burner for a few more years if it’s not lol. Can’t see the wife being ok with me having to buy a rebuild kit after spending a grand on a “running” eng lol. Hope to get back at it this weekend and see what is wrong. Bought some shafting and round stock to rebuild the loader pivots too. Assumed the eng will run and wanted to start machineing them. Might take a while on the 1944 southbend 9 lol. But it will get them spun up .020 at a time hahahah
Funny Farm, Don't panic quite yet like Wes J says pull valve cover and take a look. There is plenty of time to panic latter! I'd be looking for one or more rocker arms with way too much clearance to the valves.
I will pull the cover and see what I can see. I’ll post what I find and take some pics if I find anything. Fingers crossed it’s minor issue not a major one lol. Really miss having the old hoe for work around the property. But can’t justify spending much more on it either lol
Well I took the Vc off this eve and to my supirise there is a push rod off the rocker .... I can move all the valves and was able to push on the rocker and compress the spring enuf to put the push rod back in its place. Unfortunately the eng still only turns one full revolution and something hits and stops it. So much for a running engine. Ugh.
How it looked inside when I open the valve cover
Don’t have time to dig any deeper tonight. Hopefully tommo eve I can get the engine on the stand or crane and pull the pan off. Not sure what I will find that’s stopping the crank from turning but it makes a metallic tick or knock as it locks up. And it locks up hard. Almost like a rod bolt is hitting the block or a rod is broken or..???... ugh. Feeling discoruraged and disappointed. The money I may have wasted on this engine would have replaced the crank or repaired it in the orig engine. It at least ran and works.., just knocks once warm. Sadly I may have to pull the plug on my project if this engine also has a bad crank.. ......
Hey pumpguy the bolts are offset and should not line up but one way. Now mind you the offset may be slight and can be forced to fit so bear that in mind also. Of course with engine at TDC the timing marks on flywheel should be at top left standing behind engine, if my memory serves me correctly.
I have taken the valve cover off , oil pan, front cover over the inj pump gear and the water pump. Nothing obvious stopping the engine from rolling over more than one revolution?... could a lifter be stuck in the block ? Could that explain the one pushrod that was off the rocker when I opened the vc? Lots of sludge in the pan. Heavy pudding like black goo. But no sign of metal or anything. Don’t think it’s a crank issue now at least. I have to get some olastiguage and check it better tho. Looks like I’m going to have to pull the head and dig deeper.. looking like even worst case I can use this crank and rebuild the orig engine. Shoulda known an engine swap would still end up being a rebuild lol.
Well if you have the pan off I'd remove the rocker arms and then you should be able to poke up at the lifters and see if they all move free. Then again as you are this close I would just pull the head and get a good look at the tops of the pistons and cylinder walls.
You have a nice hardwood floor in your shop?
I think he has it his kitchen.
lol. Yes i do actually ha ha. It’s laminate click flooring but ya it’s kinda too nice for a shop I know. Was the only space I had. It’s a 24x30 “guest house” is hats separate from the house so I covverted it to my workshop. Unfortunately it’s raised about 4ft off the ground on hydro poles so getting engines and heavy things up the ramp to the door is kinda tough. Use what’s available right ...lol. Normally I only repair small engines and atvs etc in there. But it’s a dry place that’s easily heated in the winter for me to work on Things, and it’s all I have till I can afford to build a shop.
I really expected I would find an obvious reason for the engine not rolling over, when I pulled the oil pan off. The noise sounded like it was low in the front of the eng? Found nothing tho. Now with pan off the noise sounded like it was coming from behind the front cover, so I pulled some of them looking at the gears and such for damage. The way it locks up hard and u can feel and hear metal contact that’s solid and abrupt. If that makes sense lol. Just no give to it. I took the flywheel and kinda “ bumped “ against the spot that stops and it feels pretty solid whatever is stopping it . Other than the sudden stop after a full turn of the crank, it turns nicely and feels tight.. other than the one push rod being outta place ( but not bent) everything appears ok... could a lifter become that stuck? Thought a good twist of the flywheel against it would show some movement ..? And it will only go one revolution in either direction from where it stops?... starting to think it might be best off to pull the crank and rods outta this eng and rebuild the orig engine might be the way to go ?.. trying to get this old hoe running as cheap as possible .. but I’m deep enuf into it that I gotta keep going. Orig engine ran good till it knocked. Can I put the crank and rods in that block? It started well , didn’t have much blowby and didn’t smoke exceively lol. I know there is diff liner sizes but will cranks all swap?
never mind, didn't read all the posts Do you get almost 360 degrees of rotation? or almost two full turns? Can you hold it tight against the 'blockage" with the flywheel and go back to wiggle the rods to see if you can tell if one is tighter? Same with the timing gears, see if there's less play in any of the timing gears when it's held tight to the blockage than when it's loose. The loose pushrod is suspicious, if that valve is retracted now, and not broken, I still suspect a something was holding it open and dropped into that cylinder now.
I can get almost 360* crank rotation. I will check the rods and gears for that when holding it against the “blockage”. Expected it to be more obvious since it’s such a sudden and hard stop.
I would remove the head for a through look at it and the cylinders. Next would be removing the front cover. I would not be surprised if you have something in stuck in a timing gear.
Is it stopped at TDC for either pair of pistons? That narrows it down to two to check.
If I remove the ink pump with the cover and leave it attached to the cover will it come off and leave the seal in tact? Not sure where I could get the seal and or how to install them if removed. I believe ther s a seal on the inj pump shaft that has to be changed if removed ?? Umbrella seals or something ?
I will have to look again to be sure but if I remember right. The middle rods were down and the timing marks were at the top left side ( standing behind the flywheel facing the front of the eng). Can’t remember if that was on the “obstruction” or not. I had to put the pan back on to set it down cause I am having some issue getting the engine stand i have to work on this engine. It’s hanging on a small engine crane that settles overnight so I finger tighten the pan on. And set it down. Hope to get a few nights this week to figure out how to mount it to the stand I have and dig a lil deeper into the “ obstruction “. Going to need to get a head gasket kit now too. Shoulda just ordered an in frame kit. It comes with all the gaskets and seals I have bought,along with everything to freshen it up.,and after buying the gaskets and crank seals separate...it’s not that much more to buy a kit ... does anyone recommend for or against a specific kit for the 188? Any I should stay away from or insist on getting ? Thinking my best plan now is to strip it down, clean and inspect it all and rebuild it. Had hoped to be able to just swap and be running. But looks like I might be tearing down two engines, taking the best parts from the pile, adding a rebuild kit to the mix and building one. Hopefully one of the heads is good and won’t need much if any work... this project is killing the budget and keeps getting bigger and bigger lol. Engine swap ends up being a rebuild anyway....:$.
Well I found the issue lol. Took the head off. Lots of garbage on the pistons. Rolls over and over and over now lol. Going to plasti gauge the journals before i say. But I’m pretty sure the crank is good. Lifters all move Freely so was just the piston hitting the garbage on top. I think the plan is now. Tear down the orig engine also. Use the head and likely the inj pump and most of the orig accessories. ( I know they all work well) use the crank and block from the new engine or just the crank and rods,... I’m not sure yet ? Get an in frame kit and a set of main bearings. Already have crank seals so no point in spending 200 more on the major kit since I think the only diff is it comes with mains and crank seals. So unless main bearings r over 200 bucks I’ll just get the in frame and use the best parts I have and cross my fingers lol. Anyone use the eBay engine kits ? Will price the parts from case but I’m guessing eBay will be cheaper. Just unsure of the quality etc ?? Anyway. Happy I found the issue. Happy the crank spins nice and feels good. Hopefully it measures good on the plasti gauge ans I can get an engine together that runs again lol.
After a quick cleaning.
Wow.. I never thought it woulda cleaned up like that.. You better take a long look at the tips on the injectors.. IF that crud stopped the engine from turning, chances are, it hit the bottom of the injectors.. IF the holes are collapsed even just "a little bit" it will build up line pressure & seize the injection pump.. Your not gonna be able to see the holes..but if you see that it hit.. replace the injectors.. & with all the expense your incurring.. you dam sure don't need to be buying a $1700.00 injection pump.
Thanks pump guy. I think I’m going to use the complete head off the orig engine when I rebuild. I believe it will be in better shape and I know it ran well. Can I remove the injection pump from the housing without having to replace the seal ? If it has to be changed do I need any special tools to install it ?
Here is a link to a human encyclopedia for anything made by Case. Dale has been super helpful to me and his prices are decent to. His engine rebuild kits are top quality. I have bought them from him. http://e-backhoeparts.com/ Also if you remove the oil pump be aware that there are shims between it and the block. It critically important that you use them to set the pump gear back lash correctly with them.
Well with the help of a couple friends I was able to get the original engine into the shop going to tear down both engines and use the best parts from both and rebuild
I've been following the thread. How are you making out Funny Farm?
Not much progress the last couple weeks. Been busy with other things and kinda discouraged with the ck. I have the original eng partially disassembled and also the new engine. Have a couple broken off bolts to remove on the original engine and u can then remove the head. Thinking now I might just swap the crank and rods from the new engine into the orig engine with fresh gaskets and such but will see how the cyls look. May just order a kit and rebuild with the best of the parts I have and a kit. I accidentally removed the shaft from the inj pump so no I think I need umbrella seals and possibly a special tool to replace them? Maybe The pump guy can help me find the seals and tell me how to install them. I did manage to get most of my manual printed but haven’t checked it for how to change the seals on the pump shaft. I will post more when I have something to take pics of or to update. But so far not much changed. Still have two bad engines and a dead ck lol.
Had some spare time this afternoon so I was able tig weld nuts on the broken off bolt stubs and get them both removed. The one on the right side took two try’s but came out good. Going to start pricing out the cyl sleeves and piston kits this week. Besides that I’m only missing the crank and rod bearings and the gasket set for the head. With the broken Bolts removed I can remove the head and finish tearing down the orig engine. Still haven’t been into the bottom end to see what was knocking. Hopefully the crank in the “new to me”engine checks out good and I can use it and the rods with new pistons and bearings, in the orig block. It ran well before it knocked so hopefully with a good crank and rods , along with a freshening up it will run strong for the remainder of its life lol
I understand on getting discouraged but it sounds like you're still making progress. I have a 74 580B and the lower throttle linkage shaft broke in half. I've never worked on tractors before so the job was a little daunting. I had to remove the air cleaner, valve cover, fuel tank, etc to get into the steering column where the linkage is. After finding a few broken parts I wasn't aware of beforehand, trial and error, and at times doubting myself I got the old girl up and running again. The whole process was about a month, especially because some of the parts were hard to find. Just keep at it I suppose, you'll get it.
Had some time this aft so I was able to make a bracket to allow me to mount the 188 to my engine stand. Removed the rest of the front cover and stuff. Then was able to remove two rods and pistons from the new to me engine. So far the crank looks good. Bearings say it’s .010 for the rods. Ran outta time and didn’t see the mains yet. Once I know the sizes I can order new ones. Slowly making progress....
Well I think the crank will work.... lol. All the mains and rods look decent except on the rear main journal. Looks like some moisture was in the oil system and laid in the oil groove on that journal. I hope to lightly polish with Emory cloth and run it with new bearings. Looks to be mainly surface rust and it’s almost entirely on a part of the journal that’s not touching the bearing surface. Just where the groove is with the oiling hole. Was some rusty stuff in the groove on the bearing and on the journal. Besides that all looks good. It’s .010 under std size on both rod and mains now. Hopefully I can finally catch a break with this old ck and the top end of the orig engine will be good to re use as is and I can basically just swap the crank and rods out and reassemble with all the needed new seals and gaskets ect Getting curious to open up the orig engine and see what came loose and was knocking Seem d like a rod knock to me.. but time will tell Hope to have some time this weekend and get the orig engine tore down, meaning head off to inspect liners , crank removed and begin cleaning off the remainder of the 50+years of grime inside and out of this old power plant hahahaha The old ck may just run this year after all then I can start machining up all new loader pivots and pin But that’s another project on its own If the pump guy reads this ... I need your help /info with the shaft seals and how to best know what pump is best to use outta the two I have One I know worked decent but I dumbly pulled the shaft out and am worried about using it without new seals and the other cane with the claimed running engine and I cannot know if it ran or worked but was claimed to be running when pulled I believe the engine was running when pulled as all the damage I have found is from improper storage after it was removed
DO ME A FAVOR.. "TIE the throttle W.F.O.".. until your ready to reinstall the pump.. DO NOT turn it upside down or shake it.!! Tying the throttle "wide open" will hold the guts inplace.. Give me the #'s on the name plate & we'll determine which is the latest version.. Now, weather or not its gonna work correctly, is another story.. Probably better stick to your "RUNNING" pump/engine.?? atleast you KNOW the pump will pump.. BUT> give me the #'s off both pumps anyway.. FEEL INSIDE the front tube.. IF you feel any grooves.?? The pump stands a GOOD chance of putting FUEL IN THE OIL.. & you don't want THAT on a fresh rebuild.!! SO, new drive shaft seals aren't gonna help.. The P# for the seals are >10453< but if the pilot tube is grooved.. no sense in it..
Ok. Thanks pump guy. I will get the numbers and post them tomorrow morning. I appreciate the info and guidance with the pump. I was careful to install the shaft back in without rolling over a seal but read a bunch and was worried it would leak still. I will check the bushing for grooves. And tie the arm wo. Gotta figure out what direction that is again tho lol. Thanks again for the great info. pumpguy
WO is "back" towards the inlet & away from the drive.
Pump that was originally on the backhoe. To the best of my knowledge it was working well before. It had developed a small leak from one or two of the inj line connections, but I think/hoped that new seal washers on the banjos would stop that. Maybe that’s a sign of bigger issues tho.?
The pump that came on the engine I purchased as a replacement turned parts donor lol Has a slightly different linkage for the throttle
They're both 27AJ's so it doesn't matter.. the donor engine pump is missing the "break-back" lever.. If you look closely, you can see a broken piece still behind the screw & spring.{I think}.. Its supposed to look just like your old one.. just missing a piece..
Was able to get the crank out and the pistons removed from the rods. Re assembled the rods to keep them in their proper orientation to the crankshaft. Removed the head on the orig engine And at first all looks ok ... upon closer inspection and rolling the engine over by hand, the rear piston does some funny jumps and clicks when it does. The arrow on the piston is not straight with the others. Have to take the donor engine off the stand ,put the orig eng on to remove the pan, crank and rods. The #4 piston was noticeably cleaner than the others. I can see that the piston had hit the head but didn’t appear to do any damage just left marks in the carbon and kinda stamped the arrow into the head. I assume at this point that a rod bolt has come loose or broken and allowed the piston to travel too far up the cyl and to be turned in relation to the other pistons . But will know better once I get the engine on the stand. Definitely found where all the knocking was coming from anyway. Curious to see the damage. Sleeves all look decent but will give it a good inspection before I decide what block and parts can and will be used.
Aren't the connecting rods and caps stamped with numbers on the side that is underneath in the photo ? I have had to stamp them myself many times because they came from the factory only stamped on the bottom of the rod cap. Stamping them on the sides assures the rod caps go back on the same way they were, before they came off.
Won't say for all engines but seems most engines I have worked on the numbers on the rods go to the same side as the camshaft. Of course if you have an double overhead cam engine that would get confusing! Always best to make a note of things like that when disassembling an engine or anything else. Some what off topic, but one of the first engines I worked on a 12V-71 Detroit I noticed that the main bearing caps while numbered had two out of sequence some thing like 1,2,3,5,4,6,7. So asked the shop boss what he thought. His reply was that as it had run that way for years and a few thousand hours and the reason it was being rebuilt had nothing to do with a main bearing problem we would not argue with success. It was reassembled the same way.
Yes. One side of the rod and cap is number stamped. I just wanted to make sure I kept them all in the same spot and the same way as they had been originally. Two rods appear to have numbers facing the cam and two appear to be away from the cam. That’s how they were so I think I’ll leave them as they were and just replace all the bearings. Hope to see why the arrow on the #4piston on the other engine is turned and the piston travel is “jumpy” at top and bottom of the stroke tonight. I assume the rod bolt broke or loosened off but will know once I have it on the stand and the pan off. Def think it was about to blow apart and get a whole lot worse if I had not shut the eng down and parked it when it made all the noise lol.
I don't know about your particular engine, but a some connecting rods have a "heavy" side and it is imperative that they are installed with that side of the rod on either the RH or LH side, the way the engine manufacturer specifies.
As for the arrows on the pistons not being lined up it could be simply they are stamped in with a hand held stamp. The jumpy thing on the piston does have me a bit worried or at the least curious. I would be looking over that rod, piston and cylinder liner very close. Something does not seem right in that one. Never saw an engine where rod numbers were facing tow directions. Maybe someone has been in there before and got mixed up? Probably the most important thing is to have the arrows pointing the right way to be sure the notches for the valves are facing the right way,
When I removed the pistons I was sure to keep the rod facing the same was it was before (by noting the direction of the arrow on the piston and the number in the stamps ) and kept them all as they were originally. I suppose as long as the rod cap is on the right way the hole should be round and the rod should work regardless of what side the number stamps r on. But I figure it’s best to keep everything as it was found for when I install it into the other block.
There’s a moment at the top of the stroke where the piston stops moving and then it jumps kinda and starts moving. I can hear it click kinda and it moves normal till it hits bottom of stroke. Same thing happens. Rocking the crank back n forth makes lots of noise. Def appears like a rod cap is come loose. I will read the manual and see if it specifies hoe the rods should be butnif I can’t find anything I will just make sure they r all as I removed them. Thanks for all the replies and help. Being my first Diesel engine repair and my first major work on heavy equipment I really appreciate the knowledge that’s shared on this site.
I don’t plan to re use any of the rods from that engine and will only be reusing the pistons if they look to be in good shape once removed and inspected. If they look worn or damaged I will get new sleeve and piston kits but hope to be able to re use them.
I'm going to go with a bad wrist pin bushing/piston. Bob
U may be right bob. Although my gut says it’s the lower end of the rod that’s noisey. Guess I’ll know when it’s apart lol. I’ll be sure post what I find
Well I’d say I found the original issue with the old ck engine . Seems like the #4 rod bearing has exited the building and gone for a vacation . Removed the pan and expected to see a broken rod cap bolt or missing nut .... but both were intact. Removed the cap and it seems there is not even a trace of the bearing. A badly beaten rod journal and a pounded up rod. But no remains of a bearing. Weird ... I used the tractor for about a month after purchasing the old beast. It had a cracked exh manifold and i must have blamed the tick noise as a exh leak when it must have been the rod bearing. Regardless I ran it for about 75hrs before it suddenly began to knock loudly. The tractor did snuff itself out from a idle once as I was attempting to limp it back to park it. Let it sit for 20 min and was able to restart and get it parked. Fired it several times and t would run quiet till the eng temp came up and it would knock again. I have heard of bearings spinning and such. But never did I expect to find the bearing completely missing hahahahaha. Can’t believe it didn’t send that rod right thru the block or come apart with catastrophic damage. And no trace of any piece of the bearing larger than lil bits and shavings. Explains the knock at least hahahah. Called and priced a rebuild kit from fawcet tractor. Major overhaul kit was same price as the in frame at 900can so looks like that’s my best plan of repair. Local case dealer wanted 1500 for an in frame kit lol. Rediculous. They will however allow me to return the gaskets I have already purchased from them that will also come in the rebuild kit. They wanted 500 just for the piston and liner kits. Can’t see spending triple or more for the same parts lol. And the girl I got at the parts desk couldn’t even find the main bearings or rod bearings to give me a price. She did however recommend fawcet and I have to thank her for that. I think she was frustrated with searching and was just getting rid of me from the counter but ended up pointing me to much cheaper parts and more knowledgeable parts people. Or so it seems at this point. And yes this is exactly how it looked when I removed the cap. Zero bearing remains lol. Unreal.....
Missing bearing ... can’t even believe it lol. And it didn’t even knock that bad hahahaha. IN fact it didn’t really knock till eng was warm .....
Both engines basically tore down now. The original engine looks good besides the bearing that took an un booked holiday and the damage that left behind lol. Cannot figure out how to remove the tach drive thing ? Cannot remove the cam without removing it first. Anyone have a tip on how it comes out ? Kinda too bad about the crank being trashed. The rods are std size still and the mains are .020 under. All journals look good but the one. The rod bearings all showed sign of wear and we’re wore to thru the silver layer but only one journal shows any damage. Hopefully I can order the major overhaul kit in the next day or two and then begin the job of cleaning everything up and preparing for the rebuild. Need to build a sleeve puller yet also. Used an aluminum bar and a hammer and was able to get one sleeve moving but will build a puller and get them all out.
If I'm not mistaken.. I think the tach drive comes out using a vise grip slide hammer.??
To remove the tach drive get a fine thread bolt and drill out the center of it to allow it to be screwed in and over the drive shaft. Then you can use a slide hammer on it. I made a puller that works very well. It is describded in this thread. Post #11. ----------> HeavyEquipmentForums
Thank u tinkerer and pumpguy. Didn’t know if it pulled out or threaded out. Couldn’t seem to get the cam out with it in place.
I knew Tinkerer would know how its done.. I got MY INFO from HIM.. lol
Thanks guys. Appreciate the help. Will check the threads and get a bolt. Drill or machine the hole to clear the drive in the middle and pull it. Almost have the plate machined for the sleeve puller. Will build the u shaped part for the top of the puller from square tube ( cause I have a bunch lol) some threaded rod and we should have the liners out and then it’s just the tach drive and cam to remove and the rush to getter clean and ....maybe even painted before rebuild Major rebuild is almost here now. Tractor supply shop I used is about 3.5hrs away. (Each way). Parts r there but won’t ship from there till Monday or Tuesday. Figure it’s cheaoer to ship from there than drive 7+hrs to get it myself lol. Gives me a few days to get 50some years of grime removed.
I never use a sleeve puller FF. I turn the block upside down and use a brass rod and pound them out from the bottom.
I had an aluminum bar and tried on one sleeve. It moved about 1/4 inch but was hitting it hard enuf to start mashing the end of the bar up, so to be safe I spun up a plate that fits the bore nice and is just smaller than the sleeve o/d. Small shoulder to keep it centered and I just gotta make the other half. Might be able to just pound on the plate with a bar and hammer too ? Some pics of the plate with measurements is anyone wants em. Assuming it works that is hahahahah
The nice thing about making the puller plate to pull the liners is you can use it up on top of the liner with a cross bar and a couple head bolts/studs to clamp the new liners in to measure line flange protrusion. Brute force is good but sometimes a nice steady pull with a piece of all-thread is nice too! Besides if you have the lathe sitting there making some chips can be a very relaxing to spend time. Just yesterday I made a special tool to aid in repair of a motorcycle tachometer. A couple pieces of scrap Plexiglas sandwiched together with epoxy then bored through one layer to support the crimped on bezel while I pried the crimp up to gain access to the inside to reattach the loose part inside.
Used the plate,a steel bar and a hammer to drive the first one out. Worked well. Might skip the puller frame piece unless I get one that’s stubborn. One out Three to go lol. Always looking for a reason to make some chips. And I agree. It’s relaxing and kinda satisfying to make tools and parts on a lathe built in 1943 lol.
Oh no !..... anyone know if this is replaceable or even factory made??? Or is this a repair and custom machined part to fix a leaking seal area ? Appears that the first sleeve bore has ona also but it stayed in the block. The second sleeve I pulled it came with and broke trying to push the sleeve thru it ... bang head ....: didn’t expect to see this ring and if it’s custom work then maybe I need to clean up the other block and use it ??? Or replace this part and keep going with this block ?? Just when it was going well again.... Road block lol. U can see the shoulder it was pressed against in the bottom seal area. If u look close on the first one I pulled (cyl#4) u can see the ring in that seal area also. Anyone seen this before? Repair from P.O. over the years??or oem thing that I can replace ??? Or throw it aside and use the block I tore down for the crank and rods. It has no tach drive and is older I believe but appears to be in good shape. Just afraid it will have these rings also and will be an issue removing the sleeves from it. ?????
Other 3 sleeves came out leaving that ring in the block. Only one came out with the sleeve and unfortunately broke. Not sure what the next step is.... set this one aside and pull a liner from the other block and see if it has these rings also or replace the ring and press it in. ? Did not expect there to be a ring there and don’t see any mention of it in there manual I have ??? Anyone know ???
The only thing I can think of is>> if its not factory, then the block was bored to accept OS liners & pistons.?? maybe?? IDK..
I envy you FF in regards to having a lathe and being able to make about anything you need. I was always too poor to be able to buy one myself. Nice job on the plate. I had a machine shop make one just like it for a Massey Harris tractor with a 4 cyl. Continental engine way back in 1962. After that I used a hammer and rod. Sometimes you gotta tap back down and up again to get them out I sure wouldn't trust a new OH kit in those doctored up block bores. They were prolly corroded so badly that they bored the block and made those repairs with the rings. If you happen to use a wire brush in a drill to clean the cylinder bores, be careful to not damage the seal grooves. You will most likely find corrosion from rust just above that area.
FF once you get to it, can you take pictures of the process of removing the tach drive? Mine is broken and would like to get around to fixing it some day.
Ok. Thanks guys. U confirmed what I had thought and I guess I will pull sleeves on the other block and see if it’s a better candidate to rebuild. It has no tach drive and I believe to be an older block but is a n good shape as far as I know. If I end up pulling the tach drive on this engine I will post pics. But may not need to if I use the other block as it done not have one to pull. Thanks again for the info and help Hopefully the other block is better.
My thinking is, its a "standard" repair..?? Probably common use in a machine shop.. gonna have to call around or post around & ask.. How about just making one??
The above part of my last post should have said ------>be careful not to damage the area of the block bore where the sleeve seals rest after the sleeves are installed.
I have read about blocks being repaired at the deck area by boring them and pressing a sleeve In to repair corrosion around the flange on the liner. This block must have had corrosion around the seal area. From the underside mains and the damaged screw heads on the oil pump I know someone’s been inside this one before. The material the repair piece was made from seems quite hard and snapped fairly easy. I would have to try and figure out what to make the piece from and don’t know if my machining ability is up to making such a part. But I do have a machine shop close to my work I can likely get a ring made for a reasonable price ( I do odd welding jobs for him and he does odd Machine work for me). Maybe he can better identify the material used to make it also ? Just don’t know if I want to use this block that’s been repaired unless the other block has bigger repairs or damage. I believe the oil pump is in better shape on the older block as well ,and was going to swap them around , but with the sleeve seal area damage ,and the bad oil pump it’s looking like the orig block is not a good candidate to rebuild. I will finish tear down on the engine I purchased and see if it’s a better candidate. Only reason I was going to rebuild the orig block is cause it has the tach drive and the one I purchased does not. Funny part is my gauges don’t even work so the tach drive is really not important to my old hoe lol. I’d rather use a block in good shape, without a tach drive than attempt another repair on the orig block to keep the tach drive that won’t really be used anyway. Thanks pumpguy and tinkerer for your input as well as all others who replied. It’s nice to have another opinion on the things I’m finding , and the best plan to fix the problems I find ,..and the mistakes I’m making lol. I figured that’s what U meant tinkerer. But thanks for clearing that up. Hope to swap the engines around on the stand one more time and pull the liners from the new to me engine and see what I see. Guess I will literally have to tear both engines all apart,...sift thru all the parts for the best choice and most reusable parts To rebuild with. See what I find inside the other one I guess and go from there lol. Thanks again to all for the help. Happy Father’s Day to all the dads out there. I will post what I find and any progress I make as it happens lol
All four cyl bores had the same repair too. Don’t know if I said that. After removing the other sleeves u can see three repair rings still in place in the block and the one that came loose. To the best of my measuring ability it appears to be .002-.003 thou bigger than the bored out area. So a normal press fit. ( I don’t have bore mics only a digital caliper) It’s also bigger than the sleeve is and bigger than the hole top or bottom of the bore so the ring must be distorted just to get inside the block. Obviously it worked and sealed up for years without issue. And could likely be repaired again and would work for years again. But my gut says to look closer at the other block and see if it’s in better shape. May or may not be. The way this project is going so far ,...nothing would be a surprise hahahahaha.
I wouldn't put too much importance on having a tachometer FF. Know what rpms the engine is turning as far as I am concerned is for setting the idle adjustment. The total engine hours is what matters most and can be recorded with an inexpensive dash mounted electric hour meter.
I agree and plan to install some gauges for oil pressure and eng temp. But tach is not a big deal. I can tell by the sound of an engine if it’s idle is low or too high. And for the work I want the tractor for a tach is just eye candy lol. Hours temps and oil press is what I wanna monitor.
Where I worked we had experienced several engines with bad pitting down at the seal area for the liners on various engines, due in no small part to very poor maintenance practices at several plants. If not too bad we were able to repair using epoxy to fill in the pitting and smooth off the roughness so seals would slide in without damage. At one point the company purchased a Kent Moore tool specifically designed to bore out the lower bores and it included repair sleeves and tooling to press them in place. Unfortunately shortly after purchasing the tooling for a few thousand dollars upper management decided to scale back the shop and farm out 95% of the major engine work. That tooling got used as I recall twice and now probably 20 or more years latter still sits on a shelf and no one there now would have the faintest idea of what it is used for. I think I would be checking the other block real close and if it is good go with that one. Otherwise see if the machine shop can make and install a new repair sleeve.
Like I said.. I'll bet money its a "standard practice" in the repair of those blocks.?? Just gotta find a machine shop who does "Case".. Hell, call Dale Weiss at Tractor Stuff.. He'll definitely know.. 1-800-428-8183 He might just say, yeah its a standard repair, I have 12 on the shelf.. It'll be a lot faster than tearing down another engine..
I’m sure if I can figure out what material to make the repair sleeve from , I can make or have it made. The other engine is basically tore down now. Crank and rods removed etc. basically all I have to do is put it back on the engine stand and push the sleeves out. Had it all tore down to get the crank and rods out for the build. I think I will pull the sleeves and see what one is a better candidate to build. May still repair the original block and rebuild it and sell for a fair price, to recoup some of the unexpected expense I have encountered on this project. I just want my backhoe running again but have been hitting obstacles every step of the way. Not pthat I wasn’t expecting obstacles and set backs. Always seem to hit a few.hahahah. Especially when I have very little experience with this type of equipment I’m fairly mechanical and have done lots of gas engine and automotive type work before so I don’t feel totally lost. But building off-road jeeps and rock crawlers is drastically diff in mannny ways to old tractors lol. One step at a time I guess. Thanks for all the info help and opinions. They def help ease my mind when making some of these decisions. Hopefully the other block is in better shape and I can use it without repair work first. Surely between the two engines and a major rebuild kit I can make one runner outta it all lol.
Thanks pump guy. I will keep that number and may need to call him. This site was the best thing I have found for the old ck project. Manual is ok but vauge in spots and cannot share the same experience and knowledge that people who have worked on these machines before can share. Thanks to all who have helped me and I will continue to post my progress.
I tried that number today and it would not work. ?? Did some looking online and found out and confirmed that it has been repaired and it’s semi common practice for the 188. Can serve as a permanent fix for corrosion around that area. Found this where u can purchase the sleeve but cannot find any measurements to confirm if it will work. Not sure if there was a common repair size to machine the block to or if mine/most were a custom repair. Would be good to repair the repair ring lol. Could sell the engine after I have one running for the ck. One project at a time lol. Should have the major engine kit in a couple days now. Fingers crossed the other block is good to use as is. Will be able to get the other block on the stand tonight and get the sleeves out. See what I find hahahahahaha.
The problem is where you are calling from, appears that 800 number is US only! Check out this web page and there is a NON-800 number and an email address you should be able to get through on or use the email address. http://e-backhoeparts.com/
Dammit.!! I didn't realize I was helpin a friggin foreigner.. Lol Givin him ALL our secret "stuff".. Lol
Well as my maternal grandfather joined the Canadian Expeditionary Force on April 8, 1918 I guess I would have some strong connections to our neighbors (those foreigners) up north!
Hahahahahahhahahahhaha. Oh shoot. The secrets out hahahahahaha
Pulled the sleeves out of the other block and I believe I have a rebuildable block to use. . No repair sleeves on this block. Pilot bores all look good. Managed to get a good start at cleaning up the block and engine parts. Washed all the rods and oil pump out good in fresh parts washer solution. Wiped and break cleaned everything and blew with air. Coated all parts with clean engine oil after washing. Wire wheeled the block and brake clean washed it. Blew out with air and run a tap in most of the threaded holes. Still want to remove all the studs and run a tap in them and all threads on the engine. Long way to go but it’s getting cleaner lol.
Wow.. what in the world did you use to clean that block.??!! Looks good..
Thanks pump guy. I used a stainless wire wheel in a die grinder and some de greaser and some brake cleaner. Scrapers and razor blades and a great big jug of elbow grease lol. Block is bare now. Cam and lifters all look good as do the cam bearings. Bunch more cleaning and I can maybe get a coat of paint on the block before assembly.
Appears to be a perfectionist at work Funny Farm !! Just a heads up, and you may already know about shimming the oil pump to get the correct drive gear backlash. Maybe delay painting the block until it is all together.
Thanks tinkerer. Yes I am aware of the shims ( thanks to a post on this awesome site ). I kept the shims with the main bearing cap. Will check the clearances when I install the pump to confirm it’s within spec. Is there a soecific reason not to paint before assembly ? Kinda like the look of the bolts and nuts un painted is why I was going to paint as I build kinda. But maybe that’s the wrong approach ?
Painting after assembly is just my personal preference FF. No overspray where I don't want it. Gasket surfaces and clean threads for example.
Maybe I will paint after assembly as that makes sense. Thanks guys. Appreciate your input.
Well I ended up masking and painting the block this aft. Lol. Turned out pretty good. Installed the sleeves without o rings to check the sleeve protrusion.
How is that wooden floor, to stand on?? any problems w/ sore legs & feet? I was thinking about getting some of that "water proof" laminant for infront/around my workbench to stand on. I have concrete now & know a rubber mat will be a must, but that wood looks so much nicer. Nice job on the block.. BE SURE & mask off ANY name plates.. inj. pump, alternator, engine mdl & sn.. Basically, ANY plate w/ #'s on it.. Is that CASE paint of just orange?
It’s pretty good To stand on. Has some cushion to it and is definitely not like standing on a hard floor. Actually holds up pretty well for the abuse I give it lol. And yes. That’s case red from the local tsc store. I agree and it bugs me when people paint over numbers and info tags. I will definitely be masking off any tags and numbers that shouldn’t be covered up with paint. Took a while to mask it all but I think it was worth the time. I agree with tinkerer that it’s easier to paint after it’s all together but got impatient and wanted to see how it will look red. Even if case red is orange hahahahah
Made some good progress today. Installed the lifters, cam, crank with new bearings, liners,pistons,rings and rods with new bearings, evrerything fit and went together very well I think. Crankshaft spins almost effortlessly without the pistons and rods attached. Had one unsure moment tho. Lol. The oil pump oring that seals agains the block.. seems the oring that comes with the block gasket set (that I assumed was for the oil pump) is not for the pump. None of the other gasket boxes have anything that would be that seal. I used an oring from my oring kit and it seemed to fit well ..? Will this oring work there ? There’s a bunch of seals and stuff in the head gasket kit. But I assume they would be for the head not the oil pump. Besides that it went together without issue.
Looking good! Did not see the oring you were mentioning but as long as it is a bit above the surface of the pump it should seal ok. Been a long time since I worked on a 188 but think I would use a pry bar to hold the pump against the block while tightening the mount bolts. Did the shims work out to a nice back lash on the pump gear?
Thank u. Sorry I didn’t have any pics of the o rings or where it goes. I did use a small pry bar and held the pump against the oring when I tightened the bolts. Hopefully it works. The o ring was above the surface and fit the groove almost perfect. Just wasn’t sure if a normal o ring would hold up. Guess the oil pressure guage will tell me that tale lol Yes. The pump shins that were used before worked perfect again. Cam gear and oil pump gear have about the same lash. It was close enuf I didn’t feel the need to adjust it.
Yeah a pic of the orings woulda been nice.. I've never done one before & thought it might have been the same/similar to the inj. pump mounting oring.?? Maybe next time.. {hopefully not}
Here’s a pic of all the small parts that came with the head gasket kit. Some I know where they go. Some I don’t. Anyone know 1-four rubber sleeves... maybe for inj line t fittings ? 2- four smaller rubber sleeves ... again thinking fuel line seals ??? 3-eight square rubber o rings. ...don’t know ?? 4- three rubber o rings 5- larger o ring ** this was the one that was close to the oil pump seal but too big. Both size around and thickness ... pump to housing maybe ? 6-four copper r sealing washers. - injection lines to pump I assume 7 -three washers with rubber centers that are almost have a triangular inside hole. ...unsure what theese are ?? 8- four white hard plastic sleeves ..? Injector seals maybe ? 9-four hard plastic rings ..?? Unsure 10- and eight small metal rings or spacers. ???
Well one exh valve failed the solvent leak test. After removing it I see why lol. Hopefully I can rob one from the other head and lap it in good enuf to run. Might have to rebuild the other head and swap them later. All cleaned up and looks good , no cranks I can see and only one leaking valve. Had hoped to do minimal head work at this time cause this project had killed the “repair Budget” so if I can seal this one up and plan a head rebuild for the near future then I can keep going on it. I know it’s not good to do. But can’t afford to have the head re done and gotta make due lol.
Very good pic & descriptions.. 10> the steel washers for the banjo bolts for the inj. pump lines. 2 each {sandwich line, 1 on top, 1 on bottom} 9> Injector dust seals. seals around the upper, bottom side. seals against head. 8> injector carbon seal, goes around the bottom of injector. {hard to replace} 7> ? 6> ? 5> inj. pump mounting oring, seals the front of the pump to the engine block. 5 was what I thought you were thinkin was the oil pump oring? 4-3-2> ?? 1> seals the bottom of the T on the injector. Why aren't there enough big grommets to seal the T return lines.. 2 each..
Good luck lapping that pit out of the seat.. I'd check AND lap all of'm.. wont cost you anything & you'll KNOW they're right.
I pulled all the exh valves just now. Found another one. Worse off lol
DAMN.. does the seat look like that too? Valves are pretty cheap I think.. I think I would get some new valves & lap them the best I could.?? I sure hope your not laying the head flat.. it'll smash the tips on the injectors.!!! Just put some THICK cardboard down.. before laying the head flat.. "IF" you notice a flat spot on the injector tip, YOU HAVE TO replace it.. sorry for the bad news..
With the time and effort you have into this engine I would be removing all valves from both heads and pick the best head and take it to a shop to have new valves put in it after seats are ground. And if you are taking it to a shop remove injectors first so they don't get screwed up.
That seat doesn't look too bad from here. It could be the valves were just a bad batch, or got corroded from whatever, or who knows what happened. Those don't look like they'd have enough left to grind, and why would you want to, knowing they're bad for some reason. If you have good ones from the other head, I'd lap the seats with the junk valves till they're mostly clean, then with the better valves, so you don't make too much of a groove in the valves you're going to use.
I dunno FF, those exhaust valves are only $13.00 each. Not worth fooling with the old ones. Burn a groove in a seat with the old ones an it will get pricey pretty quick.
No. The seats all look much better than the valves do. Only minor pitting like normal. Surprised only the one was actually leaking Varsol when I filled the ports and let it sit a while. And yes. Thanks to a post I read before in this site , I knew to set the head on something. One is resting on two pieces of 1in sq tube at each end and the other is on a pair of parallel bars that are about half inch thick. Keeping those tips safe The other head may be in better shape but the one injector is bent and I don’t know the condition of the others. I know the head with the burnt valves ran well before. I say well loosely I guess but it started quick and run anyway. I was planning to use it so I did t have to mess with the injectors and could run the ones I know worked before. May have to invest in a slide hammer and a fork to remove them with. Maybe I can just lap in some new ones. I will price them tommo when I order the pump shaft seals
Thanks for clearing some of them up for me pump guy. Yes 5 was close to right for the oil pump seal but too big. Hopefully I can figure them all out and what ones I need and possibly don’t need to use. I have so time to worth that out as I figure out what to do with my valve situation lol. Someone said way back in this post that I would likely end up with a big pile of parts trying to decide what would be best to use lol. Man we’re they right on the nail with that one. Lol. And they also said don’t be surprised if it’s a lot worse than expected lol. Again they couldn’t have been more right lol. One issue at a time and eventually the old ck will live again. .... thanks for all the great input guys. Really helps and I appreciate eveone taking the time to give me their input.
Speaking of pump shaft seals.. was the brass tube in the front grooved? I prob. asked before but w/ 7 pages, I aint goin back.. Lol.. Just tryin to save you some headaches w/ a bad pump. Like Tinkerer said.. 13.00 a valve.. cheap insurance.
I don’t have the shaft out right now to check it. I pulled it out kinda by accident and carefully put it back to keep it all together and clean. I will check that before I install the seals. The way this build is going I will likely have to use half of each inj pump to make one work hahahahah. Ah well. Yes. I totally agree with that. I will price valves locally and see what there worth up here in the north. There Steel .... with all theses new terrifs there prolly 200 each here lol
Can I ask where u got that price. I looked a bit online and cannot find much and cheapest ones I see r about double that. Did some sandblasting and got a few more parts stripped down and prepped for painting. One piece at a time lol.
Just do a Google search for Case 188 exhaust valves, FF. $12.22 each at AgKits is the first result of many sources.
Well much to my suprise... my local case dealer can get a set of four exh valves for 32 dollars Canadian . 22 dollars for the two inj pump shaft seals also. Parts are ordered. Gotta get some valve lapping compound and a lapping suction cup now and with a lil lunch the tractor God’s will smile and I’ll have some sealed up valves soon. Was quite surprised they were cheaper at the dealer than online. Hopefully they arrive soon and I can get them lapped in and seated decent. Still going to plan a rebuild on the other head in the near future ... but can’t afford that right now so I’ll just fix it up best I can and cross my fingers for now. I know it’s cutting a corner but sometimes ya gotta do what ya gotta do lol.
22.00 FOR SHAFT SEAL??!!!!! They're 3.00 A PIECE.!!!! and they shoulda came in the O/H kit??
Ya. I thought they would have been a bit less too. Came as a pair for 22 bucks. I think that’s what it said anyway. Didn’t pay for them yet. Just orderd them. Was so shocked by the low price for the valves I didn’t pay much attention to the seal price. But I guess what I saved on valves went to seals.lol. Don’t have anything like them in the o/h kit. Unless they supplied o rings for there? But I’d wanna use the “ umbrella style seals there anyway. Prolly paid too much but just glad there coming. More pieces to the puzzle lol. If I could only figure out what the rest of the small parts r for ..?? Hahahah
it is not unusual for a Case / CNH dealer to sell aftermarket parts over his parts counter. Do a Google search for A&E Aftermarket parts (hint , hint). I saw a canfull of A&E's ballpoint pens free for the taking on a Case dealer's parts counter.
Got the exh valves and pump shaft seals today. Valves fit nicely and are close to flush with the head now too. Should help with cold starting having them less sunken into the head ( or so I have read on this forum) Still need to lap them into the seats so they may drop a touch but def better than before. Need to get some lapping compound and a lapping tool still before I can do that tho. Hopefully I can get that before The Weeknd and maybe I can get this thing back together over the long weekend. Or at least closer to being back together lol.
They sell the suction cup tool & lapping compound at ANY auto parts store.. & I mean ANY.. Heck.. even Walmart sells the tool & compound.. lol It still frosts my azz about the dr. sh seals tho..
Ya I’m sure it won’t be too hard to find. Lol. And i agree about the seals. I got ripped off on them. But need them so .... lol. I have bluing ink already to check them for contact pattern. I used tooth paste and a rubber piece with a drill on a 18hp lawnmower engine once to lap in a new exh seat with good success but I think I’ll get the proper tools for this engine lol. I did pull the shaft out again and checked the bushing for wear. Seems to be ok as far as my finger can tell. No noticeable groove or wear so hopefully the new seals do what there designed to do. What should I use to lube them with for install? Would vasoline or oil be sufficient?
either OR.. one is as good as the other.
Thanks tpg. I appreciate your help and advise. I know who I will be contacting if I ever need a pump repaired/rebuilt.
FF, have you ever sent anything across the border to be repaired?? I've turned down SEVERAL jobs because of the hassles I "thought" I might encounter.. & how did you handle the "exchange rate".?? There seems to be an awful shortage of injection pump shops in Canada.. & the ones that are there, just by going by other peoples experiences, are terrible to deal with..
No I haven’t sent parts across for repair but have purchased lots of things from across the border. If my pump ever needs work I’d be willing to find out how it goes tho. The exchange could be figured out by either charging it to a credit card in American funds or we could just adjust the price to make the payment right for u. I guess just base it on the current rate of exchange at the time ? I don’t know of any reputable shops near me ( there may be tho ) and from what I have read ,and seen people say on here ... ur the guy for pumps. I don’t think I would attempt to rebuild one myself that’s for sure. Maybe I should send u my other pump and have it looked at in the near future and we can find out how it works lol. The. If the one I know to be working ever fails I’ll have a rebuilt one ready to go .....,
One option, if like I believe 90% of the Canadians you live within say 50 miles of the boarder, would be to take a short drive south and visit a UPS Store to ship it out. Getting it back might be a bit more work. I know of people on motorcycle forums who make friends across the boarders just to make things like that easier.
Thanks for the info.. I wasn't insinuating that you send me your pump, I was just trying to broaden my territory..Lol No sense in going after work that I cant get & with the condition that "I" get pump in, leaking boxes, hole punched thru, no packing material, ect.. I would hate to get one held at customs.. I had 1 that was held up for months in Mexico once. But thanks so much for the offer.. Sorry to hijack the thread. Back to the rebuild.. lol
I do have a sister in law that works for purilator lol.....
Well I had a few hours last eve and was able to get the new exhaust valve all lapped in and seated well. Removed the intake valves and lapped them also. They didn’t show any leakage but did a light lap on them anyway just to clean em up a touch. Should be all sealed up now. Masked off all the machined surfaces and areas I didn’t want painted and gave it a fresh coat of case red. Should be ready to install and torque down the head now. Still having a hard time figuring out what a bunch of the small seals and parts are for that came with the gasket sets. .... getting there slowly tho. Lol.
You did remember to connect the pistons to the rods right?
Uhhhmmmmm..... lol. Now u tell me lol
Finally had a couple hours in the shop. Got the head studs all installed and the head torqued down with a new gasket. Rockers all installed and adjusted to .014 clearance intake and exhaust. Rolled the engine over a few times and double checked the clearances. She’s slowly looking like an engine agin lol. Front cover is in the wash Tank now . Once it’s all clean and freshly painted I will button up the front of the engine and time the pump. Not exactly sure how to find 8deg without the timing mark on the bell housing to align to the fhlywheel?? Might have to get it close and set it once the engine is installed in the hoe. Couple more pics in case anyone is following lol.
Got the timing cover installed, idler gear injection pump installed in the cover and the power steering pump mounted. Injection lines all installed with new seal washers on the pump end. Was looking at the pump timing when I notice a part laying on the floor.... son of a $**€• ... I didn’t install the washer that goes on the crankshaft against the gear behind the pully ..... lol pondered not installing it as it appears to be just be there to direct the oil away from the seal but I decided I better install it. So remove the cover being careful no to riun the gasket between the cover and head ( I only had one of them ) but of course with it being covered both sides ( as the manual says to do ) it tore as I was removing the cover... rookie mistake lol. Off to find some gasket paper to tryn cut out a new gasket and re install the cover ( with the washer on the crank shaft this time lol) May have been fine without the washer but decided to risk the gaskets and install it. Hopefully I can find some gasket material as I think that gasket only comes with a kit thru case and I don’t wanna buy a whole head gasket set just for the one gasket. I already have a second timing cover gasket but only had the one head to cover gasket. Needless to say I was not very impressed with myself for forgetting that washer lol. Two steps forward three back hahahah Need more case red paint too so guess I’ll get some paint , gasket appear and some more sealer to cover the gaskets with.
Dam.. that sux.. congrats on the progress tho.. Hope you find the "paper".. Ya might wanna measure your gasket w/ a caliper, seeing the paper comes in diff. thickness's.. Just tryin to help out..
And while it might be a "rookie mistake" if we are being honest here everyone of us has made similar or much worse mistakes more than once! I don't recall doing it myself but then I can't remember the last time I forgot something either!
Thanks pg. I will def make sure he paper is the right thickness and coat both sides of both gaskets with sealer. When I removed the timing window cover on my pump I found a fair bit of the dreaded “ mouse turd” pieces , I assume that’s the flex ring and not a good sign. Might take a closer look at the other pump and see if it has any turds in it. Hahahahah. Ya. I often end up doing things twice when I find a part I “ overlooked “ hahahaha.
UT OH.. not good.. Like you said.. 2 steps forward...
Ummmm, I forgot to put a thrust washer behind a camshaft gear once. Front cover was on and all painted nice. Then I found the washer on the workbench. Pressed off the gear and put the washer behind it. I tore the gasket but I thought I resealed it ok with black rtv cement. After watching it leak for several weeks I took the front cover off and put a new gasket on it.
Well I found some gasket paper the right thickness at Canadian tire and some black gasket sealer. ReInstalled the timing cover ( with the washer on the crankshaft this time lol). Installed the idler gear and timed the inj pump (aligned the dots but not set to 8 def yet). Painted the pump gear cover , valve cover ,intake manifold and thermostat water neck. I’m back to about where i was before I forgot the washer lol. Maybe slightly farther along since I was able to get some parts painted. Picked up some brass bushings to repair the axle pivot in the oil pan with. Made a new pin for the pivot from some shafting I had laying around. Turned it down to fit the pan nicely. Bored the old bushings out of the sleeve that pivots on the pin and bored it to 1.125. Just have to turn the od of the bushings down to fit in the sleeve now ,and one pivot point should be a lot less sloppy lol. May not be exactly how it should have been done but I think it’s will work ok. The bushing r off the shelf at the local tsc store so if they wear out it’s easy to get new ones and they r only a few dollars each. P/o had a bolt stuck in there that was sloppy and the bushings were basically toast. Making for a sloppy loose pivot that likely would have damaged or broken the cast pan if allowed to keep pounding away like it had been. Engine is getting close to being ready to install. Almost time to start making new loader pivot parts and a new hinge pin for them. Since the engine needs to be loaded to seat the rings and run in I have to repair the loader in order to re connect the hyd system so I can raise the backhoe and loader to be able to drive the tractor around. Figure driving it around is the best way I have to put some load in the engine. Tackle that when I get there tho lol.
Good thinkin on the pivot bushings.. best to tackle it NOW than later.. I've seen that pivot area so worn out on a few machines, it was a wonder how it even moved. Bores completely egg shaped w/ real thin metal left & pins worn almost in 1/2.. They put that grease fitting there for a reason.. BTW.. is that thermostat in backwards?? OH, & "driving" the tractor doesn't put a load on it.. ya gotta work it.. Dig, scoop, push a tree.. for hrs.. pack a cooler & make a sandwich.. Lol
Lol. Good eye pg lol. It’s just sitting in the hole to keep stuff out. Plan to replace the stat before install. Both engines had the sleeve on the pan. Both were wore out. One had a big bolt and the other a badly worn pin. Bored the one to a nominal next size up and got the egg out lol. Tryn fix the stuff like this up as I go along. May cut a few grease grooves and passages for the grease when I’m at it. I kinda planned to drive around the property a bit with it. It’s fairly hilly and I can use a higher gear to load it going up a hill. Maybe drop the loader and do some scraping and digging. I have some dump truck piles of fill that have been sitting for several years and are pretty hard now. ( small bobcat had a hard time loosening up a couple piles). I have a bad oring on the main boom gland. Leaks oil when lifting the boom. As well as a small but steady leak from the bottom of one of the bh spool valves that need attention before I want to use the bh for much ...besides extra weight to pull up the hills lol I have some rocks I want to move also. Fridge size boulders I have been lining the edge of a creek with. Mostly loader work. That’s why I was hoping to just rebuild the loader pivots and fix the loader for now. Bh only leaks when in use so hoped the weight of it attached and some driving and loader work would be enuf. Maybe I’m wrong tho. I appreciate the input. Didn’t want to fix much of the smaller issues till the engine was working and had a couple hours on it. Cause ya never know till she runs for a bit hahahaha I’m no mechanic and only a hobby engine builder so there’s a chance she will fly apart as fast as I built it lol had hoped I could load it enuf with the loader alone and fix the hoe after I had proven the engine to be a success. If I should be running it more than just enuf to bleed the air out and raise it up to travel , I would need to repair the leaks and possibly for noting if the engine does not work after my attempt to rebuild it. I’m sure the oring is cheap to change but I’m the type that since is apart I’d end up replacing all the packing and seals , it’s the biggest and heaviest cyl to work on lol. And as far as the valve leak at the bottom cap ?.... have not dug into or researched that one much yet. Hopefully digging and scraping with the loader and hauling some fill and big rocks around the property will qualify for work and add enuf load to put this engine to a good test and run in. After the eng is proven I planned to drop the bh off and do some pivot and leak repairs over the winter when I only need the loader to move snow. Our drive way drifts in 4-5 ft deep if the wind blows the right way and sometimes the old plow truck meets its match half way thru them hahahahahaha.
Been awhile since I uploaded my progress. I have the engine basically ready to install. After learning I have to put the engine to work right after it’s warmed up, I have been working at repairing the badly worn loader pivots. After lots of reading online and watching YouTube vids. I decided against using a hole saw in the mag drill to drill out the worn bores so I can insert a new bushing to get a nice fit on the new pin. I was worried about the bores being too far outta alignment. I decided to get some flange bearings and some 1 inch turn ground shafting. Drilled a hole for a 1/4 inch lathe tool and cross drilled and tapped a hole for a tool locking set screw or bolt as I ended up using. Had planned to mount a plate to stick the mag drill to , to power and feed the boring bar with. But found that just a normal drill works quite fine and the drill actually does not have that much grab and even my original test with a cordless drill worked well except the constant dead battery. Lol It’s working quite well and is much more accurate and much better alignment with the bore on the other side. ( that is also badly worn but has been welded and built up more by the previous owner). I bored some 2 3/8 round out to fit a 1 1/4 shaft in the lathe. Am line boring out the loader frame bores to accept the 2 3/8 o/d bushings and will bore the loader arm bores out to accept 2 1/4 o/d bushings I also bored to fit the 1 1/4 shaft. Once both sides are bored I will fit it all together with the pin installed and weld them in place. I’m pondering the idea of then line boring the bushings out to 1.5 and getting some bronze bushings that are 1.5 od and 1.25 id for the pin. I will if after welding the pin no longer slides freely. In hind sight I should have left them undersized and line bores them to size after welding. But they were built before I had decided to make the line bore set up. So see how it goes. If the pin is tight after welding I can do the bronze bushings and line bore to re allign the bungs. The bronze bushings would be easy enuf to replace as things wear. But again. I’ll see how things like ok after welding the repair bushings in the loader frame and arms. Here’s a few pics of the line boring set up I built. Cost about 75 dollars for the shaft and bearings. The carbide tool I already had as well as the scraps I used to make the bearing mount plates and stand off pieces.
.075 left to go and the bushing should fit and be in alignment with the opposite side once bored and ready for its bushing. It’s slow going but works well and drastically cheaper than renting or hiring some one to bore them for me.
That is a very impressive boring bar set-up you made Funny farm ! You are a very talented person. I see some one in the past had to reweld the RH bushing.
I have a feeling you know more about machining than I do but just for others information these sleeves are what the guy at our shop used to make boring bars: https://www.mscdirect.com/product/details/82432204 He would just bore a hole through the boring bar and then at 90º drill and tap a hole for a setscrew to lock the bushing in place. Then there was a set screw in the end of the bushing tat made adjustments a bit more accurate and easy. His bar was set up with an automatic feed and a variable speed drive motor.
Thanks tinkerer. Yes. Both sides have had manny weld build up repairs over the years. I prefer not to weld and bore as I find it never last long. So I plan to bore out and weld them n a sleeve that’s bored to fit the shaft. In my exp it seems to last longer. It’s slow going cutting thru all the old repairs I must say lol. Broken manny hss tools and destroyed a carbide cutter also. Whatever is in that right side is really hard stuff. I’ll get thru it one way or another tho lol
I actually looked for those inserts that u can then silver solder into a drilled hole in the boring bar but was unable to find them. I found that just a round hole (7/16) allows the tool bit to fit decent and the set screw holds the tool flat to the screw. It would def be a much better and more rigid hold on the tool with a square hole Tho. Seems to work ok with a round hole too. And I wouldn’t say I know much about machining and what I do know has been mostly self taught by breaking and crashing tools till I figured out why I was breaking them lol. Picked up a few more brazed carbide tools today and hope I can get thru whatever the super hard material is inside the old bores. Man it’s some hard stuff. High speed steel cutters don’t stand a chance and even the carbide has a hard time cuttting it. Looked at some tool holders that have changeable inserts but at 10 bucks and insert and 100 bucks for the holder I opted for the 7 dollar brazed carbides. This way in the event of another catastrophic tool falilure I’m only out a few bucks and not 100+ lol. ( thanks to the local clador tool supplier for their advise and help selecting the most likely tool to survive the job. Or at least the cheapest ones to destroy as I attempt to remove the crazy hard stuff.). Worst case I will use the cutting torch and blow out as much as I can and then just align bore the hole out after I’m back into normal steel that’s in there somewhere lol.
Correction. The hole was drilled 7/16 for 5/16 shank tools. Not 1/4 like I said before. Either way. Measure the tool corner to corner and drill the hole just big enuf to let the square peg fit the round hole lol. I should have drilled the hole off center on the boring bar also. Being drilled on center holds the tool above the center line and shortens the tools cutting abilities and life. I may re drill another hole and aim to have he tool cutting edge closer to the center as this should improve the tools ability and life. But heind sight is always 20/20 right hahahaha.
It was a hell of a battle until I was thru the old weld repairs and pieces of hard metal that had been welded in over the years but I managed to get the loader frame bored and the bushings fit nicely and the pin slides and spins freely. I plan to use the pin to align them to tack weld the bushings in. Then I’ll remove the pin and weld them solid. After welding I expect them to move a bit and may not align prefect but that’s ok. I’m going to set the line boring rig back up and open the bushing up to 1.5 inside and press in and ream bronze bushings to 1.25 to fit the pin. Should last longer than steel on steel and I can replace the bronze when it gets worn. Or that’s the plan anyway lol. Have to shorten up the bushings yet but pics show the progress and how I repaired the badly damaged pivot on the loader frame. Plan to do the same with the loader arms next.
FF, I like your "can do" attitude!! I have an old '73 580B that I've owned since 1987 so I'm relating to your work real closely. I think you asked if you have a 580 CK or a 580B early on in this thread. I might have missed if anyone answered but it is my understanding the big difference between the two is the 580B went to 2 boom lift cylinders where the CK had only one. Regarding your boring bar, have you had any chattering problems with cutting? It seems a little small in diameter compared to other bars that I have seen. But I can't argue with success! I'm really impressed with your simple setup. I never would have figured that hand feeding the tool would work so nicely. My 580 has been used on my stump ranch for everything. My wife calls it her "1-cubic yard powered wheelbarrow". We currently use it 365 days per year, feeding horses every day, along with every other task you can imagine. It ain't retiring soon! Thanks, Jon.
Thanks for the reply. I assume it’s a ck. And best guess is late 60s. Has the 33 hoe ( I think that’s right lol) single boom lift cyl. Two stick boom controls and two for outriggers. Found a pic of a very similar cab that was also of the 67-69 era. The tag on the tractor is long gone. There is numbers on the bh that I may be able to narrrow it down with someday maybe lol Yes I did have some chatter at first. I ended up filing a square hole into the shaft that had the cutting tip center on the shaft, this greatly improved the finish. With the hole drilled on center , round and oversized to fit the square bit , the tool tip was way above cent and although it worked , surface finish and chatter were bad as well tools broke easily from the chatter ect. I found that with very light pressure on the drill and fairly slow speeds I was able to get a pretty decent finish for the price lol. I too was surprised by how easy the hand feed part went. The bar size def should have been bigger but the new pin will be 1.25 and if I have to bore out the new bushings for bronze bushings ,I will need a 1in bar. To save cost I just went with that size for the whole repair. It worked ok. Light cuts and slow feeds and speeds kept chatter at bay ( mostly ). I basically let the tool work it’s way thru with little pressure. Was slow going but it worked lol A bigger bar would have been much faster and better tho. No argument there at all. The frame bushings are all welded in now and the shaft although not as free spinning as it was after tacking. Still moves real well. Hope to start boring out the worn arm bushings next for a very similar repair. I could do this to just about every pivot on the old girl hahahahaha. And I just may one at a time hehehehe. I hope to have the old beast alive again before winter. See how she goes tho. ....Time and money...... never enuf of either lol.
Finally found some time to get the engine pretty much buttoned up and ready for install. Intake and exh manifolds are just loose and will be removed to aid in clearance for install. Replaced power steering filter,both fuel filters , eng oil fill and the shuttle filter. Forgot to get the hyd filter, and the oil press light switch so have to take another trip to the dealer for those. Took the dash off and removed the broken tach and made a stainless cover for the hole. Installed the fuel gauge and a new hour meter in that location. Old gauge was toast and the new block does not have a tach drive so decided to ditch the tach all together. Could have maybe found a alt with a tach drive but will just run it by sound instead of an rpm gauge lol. Wired a covered toggle ( nitrous switch lol) to the push button that will energize the solenoid for the intake heater. Didn’t want to be able to accidentally turn the heater on. Tested all the bulbs and replaced as needed as wel as repaired some broken wires for the warning bulbs.put some red indicator lights in the two holes in The dash that I believe were dash lights at one time. Likely just going to wire them as work light indicators or something. Should have fully functional gauges and warning lights now. Minus the tach lol. Oil press, water temp, amps,and fuel. As well as alt, oil , and conv temp warning lights. Had hoped to begin the engine install today but took longer than expected to finish the dash. Some progress anyway. I will post more pics when I install and connect the engine. Picked up 10 gal of case Hy trans oil and 10liters of 15/40 case #1 engine oil. Few more bits and pieces left to get but should be ready to install, fill ,bleed , prime and fire up soon
The engine looks good and so does the dash. You did a great job, good luck with the rest of the restoration.
Thanks coy. I appreciate that. I owe a huge thanks to this site for all the help I have received, And all the things I have read in other posts. Sure hope I didn’t mess up something on the rebuild lol. I’m a little nervous about getting everything all filled up and back together right. Had hoped to have it running by now. It’s prob not the best plan to be firing up a fresh engine in the winter time, and without a warm shop to do the initial start up and hyd system and shuttle bleeding. The intake heater works (tested the element) and it has a circulation block heater so I will warm it the best I can and see what happens I guesss once it’s back together. I know I won’t be able to wait till spring lol just cross my fingers for a warmer day I guess. Going to install the engine and hopefully fire it over the time off for Xmas. Merry Christmas to everyone and thanks to all who have helped and incouraged me during this project.
Took a pic of this lube chart at the case dealer the other day.
Okay what's your question? You have three oil to use 30W in engine, HY-Tran in hydraulics, shuttle and power steering and 85/140 in trans axle.
Hi. Sorry coy. No question there. Just thought I’d post the lube chart for future reference or for others that may be looking for the oil quantity or types.
Sorry I didn't mean any disrespect.
No disrespect felt here coy. I appreciate all the input I have received. It’s-10c here this morning. Sunny and crisp lol. A little colder than I had hoped for to start the engine install but at least the castor wheels on the engine crane won’t sink into driveway hahahahah. I had posted another thread asking about if I would be better to mount the engine to the torque tube or to the front end for assembly but didn’t get any reply’s so I think I will try the opposite of how it was removed and mount the engine to the front end. Then roll that assembly up to the rear half. Wish me luck lol. Wish I had some help I must say. Might be a lot for one guy to do in the cold. But I’m going to giver a try.
Went decent enuf considering I was working alone. Slow and careful but it’s together and looking like a tractor again lol. Now to connect everything and set the inj pump timing to 8*btdc. Made up a wrench for that pesky bolt between the block and the pump. Took a pic of the repaired loader frame pivot need to get some yellow paint soon allni had was black the day I welded the bushings in
Starting to look like a tractor again! You'll be ready to push snow any day now!
Alot accomplished there between pictures, congrats!
I saw in one if the pics the flywheel hadn't been installed yet.. Hoping u caught that.. That's a lot of work in 1 day in your temps. Looking good!!! Dragging my feet on splitting my 580b....
& pullin the injection pump AFTER the engine has been installed, sux too..
Ya. I left it off until the two half’s we’re ready to be rolled together. Flywheel is in there and torqued. Took some time to get it alligned and to mesh with the converter ,without forcing anything. All in all it wasn’t that bad. Support under the hoe and support under the backhoe mounts ( in front of rear tires kinda ) and another support under the torque tube and it split nicely. Using bottle jacks allowed for easy adjustment for assembly. All in all ,by myself in the cold it only took about 6 hours to install. Could have cut that way down with help and even quicker in a shop or on a concrete floor. Moving the heavy parts on gravel was a bit tough at times. But it’s together. Mostly hooked up now. Still some steering and hydraulics to connect. Rad and hyd pump need to be installed, fluids installed ect. Fingers crossed she will run again soon ... Removal of the pump def would be a pain but my fancy modified wrench makes getting that rear bolt easy lol I know the pump is tired, plan to rebuild the other pump I have when I can afford it and swap them. This pump was working fine when the orig engine blew so I’m hoping to get a bit more life from it. Everything is all timed up now so worst case I can just align the marks inside the pump and remove it leaving the shaft in the engine. Send the pump to a pump shop ( or the pump guy if he would accept it lol). And have it gone thru. Hopefully it will run and work again soon.
"Accept it"??? THATS what I live for.. I dream about injection pumps.!!! & I'll do it cheaper than your fuel shop.. cant ask for anything more.. A guy who loves his work & does it at a reasonable price.. Yes children.. they DO exist.. lol
I would def sent it to u over any other shop. And I don’t know if any locall although I’m sure there are some. I know way back in this thread u were unsure about me sending a pump across the border to u for repair. I would like to change out the flex ring part for the one piece basket and reseal the spare pump along with the bushing tube ect. But I’ll deal with that expense when I can afford it or am forced to lol. I know my pump is tired and did find a few small pieces of flex ring inside the timing window. But it was working when removed ,so for now I’ll chance it. When the time comes I would definitely prefer to have you rebuild a pump for me. Even if it costs a bit more with shipping and currency conversion, I know you know pumps and would be confident it would be done right.
Just want to say thanks to all who have replied and helped me with this project. Happy new year to all hef members. Here’s to another year of breaking and repairing old rusty iron lol. Love this forum. And the knowledge shared here is amazing. Hope my long winded posts and half assed ability’s as a mechanic that result in numerous questions don’t annoy too manny other members lol. Cheers. Happy new year all.
Happy New Year.. BTW> I forgot u lived "Up North".. the shipping is insane.. the last time I checked it "started at" 36 or 46.00 1 way.!! So if u add that 80.00-100.00 to the price R/Trip.. its almost cost prohibitive?? but you'd have to get a quote from a "local shop" to be sure.. What you would ask is> " I have a Stanadyne/RoosaMaster..DBG pump.. how much to rebuild it using a E.I.D. weight retainer.. It starts & runs fine.. its just the "flex ring" that's broken.." get that price & email me..{sometime}
I will look and price around locally and see what I can find out. My sister-in-law works for purilator, so I may be able to get a cheaper shipping price thru her but again will have to see. Having two pumps on hand eases my worries about one failing but I’m sure they both are tired. And to be honest.. I’d spend a little more ( shipping etc) to know it’s been done right. Shipping is expensive ,but piece of mind knowing ur getting what u pay for,and that it’s been done properly .... priceless lol. Thanks pg. watched a few videos and read a few posts of guys rebuilding their own pumps and although it appears to be fairly straightforward, it also seems quite intricate and precise. Don’t think I’d feel confident enuf to do my own rebuild. Will def be seeking a professionals help when the time comes.
Without lengthy questions and reply's this forum would cease to exist. Happy New Year HEF memers !!
Funny Farm, One idea, how far from the border are you? If you are close and have a "friend" you could visit you could drop in for a visit and ship it from there then make a second visit to retrieve it later. Not sure how fussy they are at the boarder about some old tractor parts in the trunk.
My brother-in-law (who is married to the one who works at the shipping company) dad lives in North Carolina .... there just might be a way to make something work there. I’m going to look into options for shipping. I know my pump is tired and the other pump I have is unknown. Looks to be in as good or slightly better condition from what I can see visually tho. Used the original as it’s known to work. But I know a pump rebuild is in my near future. Kinda just wanted to make sure the engine runs and I didn’t mess up the rebuild before spending more money on it. A rebuilt pump is useless if the engine grenades after fire up lol. Cheers to all and happy new year to everyone on HEF.
Happy New Year to all on HEF.. Good luck firing her up FF....
Happy New Year everyone.. Hope it all goes well..
Tonight when working away on this project I found a broken spring in the hydraulic filter housing base. I believe it would be for the bypass valve. There appears to be 3or4 loops of the spring left ( each loop is broken from the next ) and the bypass valve is not seating without the spring. I believe this would cause the filter to bypass all the time. Does anyone know if this is a replaceable part? Can’t find anything about it in my books or online. Hopefully I don’t have to replace the whole thing. And since it appears a lot of the spring is missing and presumably went further into the hydraulics ( bang head ) where would I begin to look for the pieces?? if the filter returns to the resiviour should I just assume they are inside one of them and not worry too much about the shrapnel. Maybe fish around in there with a magnet or something and see what sticks ? Lol.
DAM.. that sux.. & your so close.. sorry but I'm no help on hydro problem.. I sure wouldn't "skimp" on a hydro spring.. u better search for the right one.. Sorry for your bad luck..
spring loaded loaded valves each side of filter close with no pressure so filter be changed, open under high pressure, yes, goes to revisiour should be a wire strainer inside in tank in hose going to pump, most have a bolted on housing on hose going out, for access good that most springs breaker clean not many small pieces,, need replace with proper spring, then could be good to go! no filter bypass, unless has be reofitter GL
Excuse my lack of memory but which machine is this on please? And is the filter for the hydraulics or for shuttle?
Thanks for the replies. I cracked the housing trying to remove the bypass part from the housing. Went to the local hyd shop and got a universal filter body and spin on filter to use. Made sure it was capible of enuf flow for the system. Called around and had no luck getting a replacemt for the oem type. Case said it’s no longer available and neither is the bypass valve or whatever it is. So for 100 bucks I got the new filter base and spinn on type hyd filter. It’s a bit larger than the original so hopefully I can make it fit and work. I will post some pics later when I have a chance to take some. Pretty sure it was a bypass valve that was broken. Valve and broken spring are inside the filt base. Appeared to allow the fluid to bypass in the event of a filt clog up. It’s the main hyd filter housing on a 580ck. Mounted in front of the loader valve in the right side when seated in the tractor.
LOL WHAT EVER
Took a few pics of the broken bypass valve. And the crack in the housing. It’s gona be a snug fit , with a bracket I think I can make the new filter work. Only oem replacement I could find was close to 300 dollars and a 2 hr drive away.
The after market hyd. filter should work, if you can put a filter gauge in the housing like the oem one and watch pressure as you work the machine.
Thanks coy.that eases my worry. The inlet side fitting still has the gauge in it. There is also two plugs in the new housing where a gauge could go. Figured I’d leave it in the fitting tho. Glad I noticed the broken spring and didn’t use it. Don’t think it would have filtered much stuck in bypass. Would have preferred to keep it original, but those parts are obsolete and expensive used.
All the gauge does is sense pressure build up at the inlet to let you know the condition of the filter, the more pressure the dirtier the filter. By the way have you tried Conequip Parts to see if they have OEM part?
Finally had a break from the cold temperatures and was able to get the essential wiring finished up. Still have to wire the lights and some accessories but it’s wired enuf to run the engine , charge the batt and liven up the dash. Cranked it over to test the starter wiring and it cranked over nicely and even gave a fair bit of smoke out the exh. ( must have been from the oil applied during assembly as the fuel system was not bled yet ). Oil pressure reached 30psi just cranking on the starter so all good there. Filled the hydraulic resiviors and pulled the fill plug on the shuttle/ trans. Surprised to find the oil was at the full mark even tho I had the engine out and drained lots of fluid from the bellhousing. After cranking it over some more trying to bleed the fuel system, I re checked the shuttle and the level dropped several litres. So I guess I will have to keep a close eye on that till it all levels out once running. Checked the eng oil level and after cranking it enuf the batt died it too had dropped to just below the add mark. ( assume its due to the filt filling up ). Topped it up and will keep and eye on that too once it’s running. Couldn’t get fuel to flow out the final fuel filter with gravity feed so I rigged up a way to pressurize the fuel tank to 2-3psi and with the bleeder screw out I was getting lots of bubbles and fuel with pressure on the tank but it stops flowing if pressure is released and gravity takes over. Removed the return line from the top of the pump and the fitting also to check for fuel flow. Noticed air was coming out the return from the tank when pressuring the tank so I plugged the return off and then was able to get a solid stream of fuel from the fuel filter bleeder screw. But again once pressure is removed, flow stops. Left the return line off and plugged and left the tank pressurized hoping to get fuel to fill the pump and flow from the fitting hole but no air or fuel was escaping from there. Cranked it over a bit with it pressurized and still no fuel coming from pump return port. Opend the fuel supply to the pump and with pressure I get fuel to that fitting but not without the tank pressurized. Re connected the fuel lines and return line and cranked it some with the injector lines cracked open. No fuel. Pressurized the tank a touch. Cranked again. No fuel. Not sure if I have something clogging the fuel or if these pumps are just hard to bleed and prime. Seems like I should have better flow even just with gravity feed. Tank was drained and all new filters were used prior to attempting to bleed the system. Fuel shutoff is in the run position and throttle was wide open when cranking over. Is there a way to prime the pump before bleeding the injector lines. Expected to get fuel out the return port when I had that off and the tank pressurized to prime the pump. But nothing came out at all. No air or fuel. Ran out of time and charged battery’s so called it quits for tonight. Was glad to get the wiring mostly done. Seems to all be working. If I could only get the fuel system to bleed out now lol. Once I have the fuel flowing all I need to do is add the coolant and make sure all the fluids stay topped up as everything circulates and levels out. Steering system, hydraulics, shuttle and trans all were fully or partially drained as was the fuel system so I should have lots to do as it runs for the first time. Hopefully real soon .... lol. Hopefully If anyone has any advise on bleeding a rooster masher pump and fuel system I would appreciate it. And should fuel flow freely out the bleeder on the filt under gravity feed. Can I bleed the pump somehow or should I fill it with diesel thru the return port to help prime it. Maybe I need to start at the fuel shutoff valve and work my way toward the filters and see if I have some ice or crud slowing the flow ? All the housings were cleaned and new copper line was made from tank to the first filter as well as new filters used. Maybe I just need to hook the snow plow truck up to the booster cables and just keep cranking till I get fuel outta the inj lines? Progress anyway. Had some smoke out the exh of the new engine lol even if it was just assembly lubricant burning.
You should have a nice flow from bleeder screw on top filter with just gravity. Double check to make sure filters are in correct position, i think they’re different,top and bottom? Sounds like restriction from tank to filters, I would remove and blow out all lines and check fuel tank outlet. That’s where I would start....
Ok. Thanks. I kinda thought I should have good flow with gravity. I will double check the filters are in right and start at the tank valve and see where the restriction is. Everything was cleaned well and I suspect the issue may be in the tank. I did find some ice in the bottom of the second fuel filter base so I wonder if I have some ice in the tank or first filter that’s giving me issues. Guess I’ll drain the filters and start checking flow starting at the tank valve and work my way thru.
Make sure that the fuel level in your tank is above the filters, that way gravity flow will take over.
I added 5 gal of fresh fuel after draining the tank. The tank is above the filters so I figured it should be good with about half a tank of fuel. I might get another 5 gal can just to be sure it has enuf tho. Thanks coy.
I had a plugged shutoff valve on my 580b when I got it. After cleaning I had a good flow to the 1st filter. The ice could be a blocking fuel flow. Thaw the filter housing and dry it. If not replacing the filters take them to a warm place to thaw. Add some anti gel to your fuel like Howes, double the dosage since u r up north it won't hurt and will lubricate the pump.
I had the housings off and washed in the parts washer during the engine rebuild. I added a good dose of Lucas upper cyl lube and conditioner with the fresh fuel although I don’t think it’s any good for ice/water. I had drained the fuel tank via the shutoff valve and had good flow then but will check tonight and see what I can find. Plan to drain the fuel filters and remove them to check for ice/water. I will also start at the valve and confirm fuel flow there and work towards the filters. Hopefully it’s just some ice and I can hear this new engine run tonight. Thanks for the reply’s. Wasn’t sure if I was doing it wrong or if there was a blockage somewhere. Pretty confident now I have a blockage and hope fully I can find it after work tonight.
Just picked up another 5 gal of fresh fuel and a jug of Lucas fuel conditioner and water remover. Hopefully that will help if there is any water I don’t get out tonight. As I thought the upper cylinder lube does nothing for water so hopefully this conditioner will help with that. Surprised to find so much water considering the tank was drained and the fuel system was apart, cleaned and stored inside during the rebuild. Thanks for the replies. I will post what I find and hopefully some pics of a running engine
Finally !!!!! Found the fuel blockage issue. Turns out the filter was not the right one. Thanks to the dumbass parts guy at my local dealer. I wondered when it was a Kabota part, but it looked basically the same so I used it. Well it didn’t have some of the holes my original had and wouldn’t really flow right. Changed it for the orig and it bled out in a couple seconds. Cracked the injectors and had fuel there in no time at all. Tightened them all up. Filled the coolant up, double checked the fluids and cranked her over. Lots of smoke but batt died lol. Add the Duramax and some booster cables ... cranked much faster. Before I had cranked it long enough to even have to give the starter a cool down, she started to run. Rough at first as the remaining air bled out. But a couple min later it smoothed out and runs awesome. Yaaaaay lol. Oil pressure is solid at 60psi. Ran it for a couple min and shut it down. Checked and topped up the fluids. Fired right back up with just a bump of the key. Repeated that tillthe steering was working and bled. Moved the outriggers a bit to get the hyd oil to settle at a safe level for now. ( several leaks need attention now that it’s running again). Now to finish repairing the worn out bores on the loader arms and re install the loader. Then plan to drop the backhoe and dive into fixing the leaks on it. One stabilizer and the crowd cyl leak around the gland and the tube. Appears to come thru the threads on both. A couple hoses and some new orings for the valve bank soools. Couple leak a bit. Lots to do yet and I’m sure being so old there will always be something to fix lol but finally she’s alive and running again. I will probably end this post here as it’s gotten crazy long and it was asking for engine swap help... so seeing the engine now is rebuilt and running, I may start a restoration post and tryn keep the repairs posted with pics in case it might help the next poor sucker who’s into an old case elbows deep. Can’t thank everyone enuf for the help along the way. Truely an awesome forum. So thanks to everyone who replied and helped me. Sooooo happy she runs again.
That's a good idea wouldn't hurt I found out years ago that 5 gal. puts it right at the top of the filter.
Congrats on it running again!!! I'm getting reading to finally split mine only to find a new drip on the floor under it. Looks like the water pump going to get replaced too...lol
Come on Funny Farm! We need a video to know it's really running or at least a picture or two with a wisp of smoke out the stack,
Ok ok. I agree kshansen. I will finish the post with a pic or vid of the ol beast running on her new powerplant. Lol. I was so busy checking fluids and looking for leaks or issues I didn’t take any pics or vids. But I will do that tonight after work lol.
Ok after several attempts to upload a 3 min vid to the forum ,and getting a “ file too large” message. I even tried to cut it into 30 sec clips and same massage so hopefully this worked via YouTube. lol Just a short video of the backhoe starting up cold. block heater was not plugged in, but did use the intake pre heater. When I said the gauges all work, I wasn’t talking about the fuel gauge lol. The gauge needle would move when I tested it on a batt but won’t work attached to the tank. Sender may be pooched. Ah well. The ol stick in the tank worked fine before hahahah. Lots to fix and do yet but she’s getting there.
I'm impressed even if the dog does not seem too impressed with the thing running.