This is for sale near me, besides what I should consider as expense, how much would this machine weigh in at? Allis Chalmers 16B, All Allis engine in it, looks to be newer rails/pads but quite a few seepage leaks at finals, one upper roller, top of trans. ATTACH]162067[/ATTACH]
Sprockets are awful sharp looking for the amount of metal left on those track rails. Looks like someone might changed track chains without doing the sprockets, idlers and bottom rollers. I only see one on MachineryTrader sold at auction for $3,000.
As for value, not much, before I'd buy it, first find out how available parts are in your area or you just bought a heavy lawn ornament to park in your front yard, then find out if anyone is near you that can fix and troubleshoot mechanical problems for you and figure out how long they will still be around to help you out with issues as they come along years from now.
She don't look to bad DMiller . Overall looks good not beat up , and I agree the rails and pads look really good . Front idlers been welded up for wear , seat looks decent . Hard to say without meeting the owner & operating it but I would say someone has took fairly good care of it . They weigh in at 25 tons . Value ??? Cat D7G of similar condition they will ask in the $ 40,000 to $50,000 range . Looking at Fiat-Allis 16B's they seem to fall in at the $15,000 to $25,000 range on asking price . http://www.machinerytrader.com/list...zers-crawler/manufacturer/fiatallis/model/16b http://www.rockanddirt.com/search?d...cb=7&year=&state=&method=search&cbmodel=HD16B Call the guy & find out what he's asking for it . If your really interested in one it probably won't be any handier than this one .
I worked on these minimally years ago(over twenty) so not new to the beasts. Tooling and availability to manuals I will have, accessibility to parts is relatively iffy. Sprocket segments are around 50-60% based on some quick measurements made, the lower rollers are all Berco as are the guide rollers and rail segments so suspect all replaced same time, as evidenced in the photo idlers are weld built up and smoothed either from operation or someone with a lathe/large mill. One guide roller is leaking, seals are available Minnpar for AC but not certain if will interchange to Berco, no response back from Berco US yet either. Currently juggling finances to see what I can afford to counter offer but may just **** the owner off IF NEED TO with all the newer parts on it. Has been sitting same spot for just at 6 months now. By s/n this is most likely a 1971.
What are you thinking? 8 grand or maybe a little more? I have been criticized many times for what I paid for something. I've been burnt a few times , but generally if I'm happy with what I paid and what I bought is working I don't care what others opinions are. Just say you pay 8 , I have no doubt someone will come along and say you got screwed or they seen a better one for 5. If your going to buy it to tinker with and do some work I say as long as your happy do it. On the other hand if your planning on running it daily for the next 5 to 10 years , maybe not. You seen my thread on my loader I think. I have spent more on it than I paid for it. New u/c , several hoses , etc. I am still ok with it but its getting to the point I need some return. The final drive deal was rough.
I would not worry to much over the guide roller seals . Chances are good it can be replaced with another readily available brand with a little modification . I was going to guess it was a late 1970's early 80's machine buy the " ROPS" cab design ? It really don't matter . Will the owner let you run it on site & hog a bit with it ?
STILL awaiting that call. Hell may already be sold and the guy just won't return the call. If I were to offer I was considering 8-10 as it is AC, open station, will cost around a grand to get moved with removal of blade, truck service time and two haul trucks. I am open to 'bargains' just not looking at another work in progress as my other Allis that I should have let slide by. Before I laid a cent on it would run it for a few hours in a close ditch clearing scrub, moving dirt if that could be accomplished and allowed by owner.
Hopefully it checks out and you get it bought . I think you would really enjoy that tractor . Not being there in person and just looking at the photos it looks better than I expected . You do know it's pretty easy to view the ring & pinion by removing the rear PTO cover . Just remember to move the tractor real slow or it will sling a rooster tail of oil out the back . Check all fluid levels & all that good stuff . We move ours with the blade on . Good luck with it !
If it helps, I just sold an AC HD9 that is a little older and was in about the same shape but needed new brakes and clutches on the right side for $6K. Fellow that bought it was happy and so was I.
Finally a response. Previous owner passed away last year, widow is selling thru daughter that still has the farm it sits on. Ask has dropped from $20k to $18,500 with 'A Little Wiggle Room'. The daughter loved her Dad, misses him much and knows the machine as well moneys put in it, how well maintained and how used. Not going to budge much on price and turned away a $12,500 offer already so I am out of the running. BTW is a late74/early75 machine by paperwork, by S/N was built earlier but quite a few machines of the day sat on yards awhile before sales.
Keep an eye on it and make sure they have a way to contact you. It may sit and deteriorate for a while and then either you will get a call or it will end up on the scrap heap. Unfortunately it happens way to often. We all have more money in some items then we will ever get out of them, but its hard for some to take a loss and move on.
Thanks for the replies, should I manage to come up on my available funds this machine will be mine. I have a yard list of uses my 7G cannot handle that this one can, would also give that one a break where I can tear into it for needed, MUCH needed repair time.. Good looking machine up close, hardly a dance hall gal but well worth a date.
I'd say they are in the ball park on asking price given overall condition & history of the machine . If that tractor checks out and could put it on a job it's well worth that money . Some times ya have to open up the check book a little wider to get something that is job ready . Like old - iron mentioned stay in contact with the seller & let them know your position on it . Seller may have a change in heart and let you have it at a discount knowing it's goin to a good home . That 16B would fit in fine with the Allis 7G loader and 180 tractor .
Oh I am aware, and aware of a old Autocar tractor with a three axle Phelan drive on float sitting behind it just south of here also for sale but some cheaper! I need around 200K and all would be good save the divorce decree that would follow!
That's cool DMiller ! Sounds like you have been scoping it all out . That's good . Take time to scope it all out . Buy the 16B and then need a truck & wagon to haul it on . That's just thinking logical . 30 K for dozer and truck / trailer rig don't sound to bad with your mechanical ability to keep it all moving .
Well the tractor/trailer combo is already gone, working on finding the cash at least for the dozer. Not looking so hot right now.
I hope you can get the 16 at least. When I was young I ran a HD21B (I think) of that vintage pushing scrapers. It was a nice machine to run.
that tractor is only worth salvage value. you were north of that. I would guess she will not be willing to sell it for that for about a year. if you absolutely have to have it keep pestering her and offer maybe to keep it in running condition for her (and mean it) and you might end up with it. people do like it when someone offers a helping hand. some will bite it off too..
Already had that discussion with them on it. They were unaware these were so obsolete and hard to keep parts aligned for. She was really upset that her Dad's machine may end up no good if someone does not pick it up and did offer it to me quite a bit lower but nowhere near to a scrapper price as it does have so much new parts already on it.
Maybe not much help for you in Missouri as I live in Stanwood WA but I'm selling a 1952 Allis Chalmers HD20 with Detroit 6 110, cage, stump stabber and Garwin blade.... she runs like a champ,, just got done helping me clear m 8 acres, I bought her with a lot of extra parts and owners manuals from my neighbor who's father was original owner
Way too far to haul, costs here are at $2.50 a loaded mile local. For distance the tonnage plays a big part as well the miles. I am still just watching and waiting, maybe after the new year and tax return comes in.
DMiller , I am hoping on a decent return this year as well. I have 3 deductions that I made , well I was there for part of it. Plus the repairs I've had this year are totaling almost 30 grand. All out of pocket but I had to borrow 8. I was running out of azz to give. Hope we both get decent returns so I can pay some back on the 8 and you can get the dozer. I'd like to see you get it and start a thread from day 1. I wish I had done that on my 943 and incorporated all my headaches into 1 thread. Got it back on its feet again Wednesday of this week. Hopefully for a while this time.
I really want to be the next owner of the old Beast. It fits my attitude and disposition!!
Maybe we should start on of those "go fund me" things for DM & everyone kick in a $100 !!
I got a feeling your going to get that 16 bought . If ya got attitude & disposition now just wait until your in the seat hoggin dirt & slammin trees with it . Funny part is customers will ask is that like a D7 or D8 ? It aint like either . Little bigger than a D7 & smaller than the D8 . It's a Fiat - Allis HD16B , perfect size machine for building roads ,clearing & dirt projects . http://www.heavytruckforums.com/showthread.php?263-Some-Holmes-750-action&p=2519&viewfull=1#post2519
Somewhat trivial but caught my attention as my tractor is not equipped with it . Noticed a shield over the hydraulic tank sight glass and locking fuel cap on the 16 . Must have came with the vandalism protection options .
Also has the instruments cover for operating station so I believe you are correct.
Was by the machine yet this week, still sits quietly. I am hoping, more or less praying I can come up with the cash after tax season but do not put much stock in that. Would love to own that machine even if a old Allis.
I am really hoping you don't get it for more than about 2500 bucks. I bet she won't do that.
They do know what the rails by themselves are worth, they still have the receipt for them in 2011, the ask price is negotiable but only to a level they cannot go below. Scrap weight is 24 ton but scrapped out price for rails, running gear, engine and cooling system as well blade and structure is well over $16,000 by their own accord and figures, seems they have looked into that by asking what a salvage dealer would give. I have a Cash$$ price from them plus will cost me just at $500 to get to farm so that isn't bad, just awaiting the accountant for go or no-go, I get it and then I will need a hauler, still working on that as I would like to move my 7G to and from my Brother In Law's place for his use too. Having a semi with lo-boy for the farm only makes a little sense.
you are going to have to find another poor shmuck who is trying to shoestring one of these along before you can sell him that salvage iron. I am also quite sure that particular kind of guy will not pay much either, because there is just about nobody running them any more. think about that. the whole thing here is you will be lucky if you just have to keep looking for a good tractor that you can actually use.
DMiller , are you saying you would have to give 16 g for it? I have no idea what the market is on a good running one of these. You can't put much stock in other peoples opinions as to whether or not your buying price is a mistake. You know equipment and if your comfortable with the buy and aware of what may come later , do what you feel is right for you. I'd like to run one of these sometime to see what its about.
Your local market for used equipment may be different but nothing on this earth would persuade me to part with more than scrap value based on weight for that machine.
I can't believe a salvage dealer would pay anywhere near 16 for it. It's not worth the sum of it's parts, becaues it costs a lot of money to sell it as parts too. The rails aren't worth what it cost to put them on, and they wouldn't have got that money back if they sold it the day the work was done. I figure you'll pay some premium over the highest scrap price it would bring cut up, since scrap is real low right now, then it will be a big premium over scrap. Around double what 24 tons of cut up iron brings total.
Sounds like you are dealing with a sharp Mother & Daughter team . Be patient & stay in contact with them . If they own the farm ground the machine is setting on then they have dealt with a lot bigger issues in the past then this dozer . They know it's condition ,history & ballpark money value to someone that plans on using the machine for what it was made to do . Good luck with it DMiller
Hi all. I find myself in this kind of situation often, I can't for the life of me find a dozer that I'd consider good value for money in my part of the world. I can buy a d11 for what people are trying to get for an 8L it's crazy, people think old tractors are made of gold. Listen to the likes of nige and others that know what there talking about. My advise isn't worth much but When ever I buy a piece of equipment, truck etc I always try and factor in a major component rebuild into what it's going to end up costing me. Previous experience would suggest it ends up costing more lol, rarely do people sell good equipment although this is a different situation. Whilst I'd love a tractor like that and have a soft spot for ac gear price determines everything, if you factor in a broken crankshaft where do you end up? Parts availability is probably the biggest factor compared to a cat. Around here wreckers work on half new parts price and when new parts aren't available they charge double.
my guess is they will probably sell the whole farm and that tractor will go with it since nobody in their right mind will pay what they "think" it's worth. maybe you could end up with the dirt as well. that wouldn't be all bad.
Regardless of what anybody says or thinks, it's only worth what someone is willing to pay for it. If the seller doesn't want to realize this sometimes you just have to walk away. Like was said if they want to part it, they'd need to find owners of similar machines and that might be impossible or take years and years.
Near to me there are few and far between reasonable cost 'Farm' rate machines. A lot of Deere, a few Cat and then a few Komatsu or Liebherr or even Case, all are priced well beyond my wallet, a similar sized/aged and worn slick Deere(850) would garner $4-5000 more than I can buy this machine, Cat is completely out of the question where the local grade contractor that has offered to haul this one and hauled my 7G stated I could buy a 1987 D6H s/n 7PC..... for $29,000 but needed rails and undercarriage work, small engine leaks(fuel oil and coolant), hydraulics leaks but for the machine was a considered good ask price. Would have had to add another $16-20,000 just in parts to get it fixed to the level of this old Allis and would still be only worth $29,000. He traded that machine back to Fabick and got $27,800 out of it on paper where they traded him up into a 963D. A Case unit I witnessed at a local sale Cuba MO went for $39,760 while needing at least as much work and yet was newer(2005) and had the pedigree of parts available, I cannot go there. Fails back to what my budget can afford and what they are willing to negotiate down to or me up to as any machine is only worth what both parties can agree to sell/buy it for. A good deal of 16Bs still out there working for a living. I grew up as a wrench on the old AC lines and the old Cat lines that still serve where newer machine get cut up. Hell my Allis HD7G is a 1974, still churns along, causes me some headaches but so far knock on my wooden head has not cost me into the poor house. A HD16B of around the early 70s is just my style, old hard mechanical everything, start and charge 24v but few lights, no accessories, nothing but wrench work and no special diagnostics computer command controls, has almost new rails that would outlast my use, new rollers, built up idlers and a well established service record even some contractors I know cannot match.
Miller check out Iron Planet military surplus machines. They are like new, some never used but just kept on the well maintained readiness line. I don't see anything close to you at this time but they do come up for auction quite often.
I do watch that site Missed a 977L a few years back ex-navy with MP bucket Missed it by $2700 Had a chance at a D6C last year and yes looked almost new at Ft Riley so reasonably close but that one went high well beyond my bid I sit cooling my heels and wait for finances to come up
Stay the course on that 16B DMiller . I think your on to a pretty good tractor with potential . You would be buying it to actually use it on dirt projects , rite ? Your not trying to buy it for scrap or resale ? Bought my 16B before the internet forums were invented " thank God " .Noticed at an add in the paper & took a drive to look & operate it . Liked the machine so wrote the guy a check for the tractor & hauled it home . It's just that simple . 20 years later we are still using it . That's not a bad price they are asking if the tractor is in good working order .
If you find out it was sold while you are thinking about purchasing it how will you feel then ? Relieved It is gone ? Or,feeling sad that you didn't buy it ? td25c's last statement "That's not a bad price they are asking if the tractor is in good working order ." Would persuade me if I were in wanting it and undecided. Just my take on it.
Oh if it goes I will not shed a tear, was not meant to be and acceptable. As to use, I would only be using here at the farm have a few dozen acres of locust to remove, many terrace heads to rebuild/re-establish and at least two ponds to set. Some grubbing here or there then maybe BIG IF MAYBE, take it to Brother In Law's place to do a little grubbing/cleanup with him on his 168 acres of hills trees and rocks near to Gladden MO(less than 80 miles haul). He needs a whole slew of wind dropped timber from ten years ago moved to burn piles, are currently widow makers leaning on other trees, many are black oak which can shaft split while cutting and is well known to do so there. He has a potential for around 80 acres functional as pasturage if can get the locust he has had come up dropped and cooked off and back under control and a few old grown over fire roads to clean back out so the old machine and my 7G could be busy for at least five to ten years part time. My nephew(BIL's boy) would like to learn how to use earth movers to keep the old farm alive as well and nothing is better to learn on than temperamental old fussy all mechanical machines as far as I am concerned. Gives a better respect for the old hands and the newer machines.
Dmiller It sounds like you haven't even run it yet. Is that true? I wouldn't buy anything without running it. Unless it was to far away. Everything I've bought like that has been trouble. The owners idea of a good machine is nowhere near the buyers opinion. Run it first or pay no more than scrap value. Also no used equipment dealer pays more than scrap value for an old dozer like that. Usually the don't pay scrap value. she's pulling your leg on that one. Good luck on what ever you decide.
Without cash in hand will not run it and put false impression on owner. I will not buy a machine I have not operated, unless is a known condition as the iron planet machines can be as they are evaluated prior to sales. Is two tractor parts dealers I deal with in the Bi-State area(Mo Il) both stated they have sales points for a machine as this for parts, Il dealer stated is worth at least $12,000 to him and he would have to go get it, Mo dealer asked where it was so he COULD go get it. I have not told either but am certain that vulture circling narrows. Owner was offered $12500 for it but turned it down a few months back, that guy may come back and come up. Scrap(clean) around here is only going for right at $80/ton, in no way would they consider that as a price, even at the old high of $250/ton would only bring $6500+/- disassembled. I paid scrap price for my HD7G running/driving, bought the second at the same price not running for parts as had newer rails and some other necessities on it. Still have less than $10,000 in 2012 dollars in the machine some years later in hard expenses for a 941 sized machine. And yes I do not count my time working on it as most others cannot either.
Hopefully the vultures don't see the photo in this thread. Phone numbers r in plain view. Maybe one of the mods could remove it.
If you are comparing the 7G to the 941, it would be a closer comparison to the 955 H or K wouldn't it? What is the weight & HP of the 7G that you have?
Standard weight of 7G is 23,000 lbs, with the MP bucket it climbs to 26,000, 110 hp. Kind of between a 941 and 955. Similar to the 16B, 46000 lbs with blade 190 hp, bigger than a D6 oval track but lighter ever so slightly than a D7G, bigger than a 850C Deere but lighter than a 950C.
The book says my old 941 is just under 20,000 lbs & only 70 Hp I think it is. They upped the power on the 941B's a bit (I think 80 HP) I think & they weigh in at close to 22,000 lbs. My 955L weighs 30,000 lbs & is rated for 130HP.
951C Cat, 95 HP non turbo, 28,000lbs. 941B Cat 80 HP and 25,000lbs. so it's a little lighter but more HP than 941B.
Yeah DMiller , here's an interesting article on the 16B off the VanNatta site you might enjoy . http://www.vannattabros.com/iron24.html
For that price you are in the range of a D7F or D8H, can get parts for both easily, and will hold their value as well. The Allis is a great tractor, but I couldn't go anywhere near that price considering parts availability. Watch the auctions, there are deals out there, I didn't give much more than that for my D7G. Good luck
Maybe in your area but not around here. Last D7F I saw listed here was 40% rails, needed hydraulics work did have a full cab but wanted $27,000 while needing grousers welded up to make it functional. Was a 1981 model. Most Cats and Deeres around here bring top $$. A 555G Deere with a 4/1 will cost you $25,000, a decent 955L or K will go as high, cavinJim got really lucky with his buy on a 955. I looked at and almost had a 977K from down around Farmington MO when I bought the 7G, it sold faster then I could write a check for the $15,600!! Found out later finals were coming unglued and the unlucky fella that bought it spent another $9000(parts) to get it right. Had I gotten it and paid the price involved I would not be looking at a heavier machine for my work. Timing is everything, catching a deal when they show out another timing thing.
This is the least expensive Cat I have seen in a long long time around here. Is in Lebanon MO so about 50 miles further out and still doable but have called, non-negotiable price: https://springfield.craigslist.org/hvo/5913055685.html
You probably won't see them listed that cheap very often, and if you do they are probably well used. But they do go for those prices at auctions. Sure you don't get the opportunity to run them like you would on someone's farm, but if you pay attention and use good judgment you can pick up a decent one at a good price. Check out machinery trader.com and rbauction.com. You can see selling prices on there. Also if the deal is right it's worth paying for the haul. I recently bought a 200 excavator 250 miles away and out of state, cost me $1800 to get it home, but well worth it for what I payed for it.
Miller is right on multiple points. I think the only reason I got that 955k was the weather. They listed it just before an ice storm and a cold snap, so no one looked at it. Being just before Christmas helped. Before I found it I spent months watching auctions, Craigslist, and other classifieds. Folks around here are really proud of their dozers, even if they need lots of work! I had talked to this guy: http://kansascity.craigslist.org/hvo/5904893589.html Interesting fellow and a pleasure to talk to, but the dozer's hydro is leaking.... I didn't want to risk that expensive fix! Kinda surprised he still has it, tho. If you want a project: http://joplin.craigslist.org/for/5900209996.html When it gets down to 10 cents a pound, or less, it's almost cheap! Good luck, Miller!
Thanks for thinking of me Jim!! I saw that D8 too but have not the time nor extra finances to get into that issue mountain! I really do not want to get into the Deere hydros, lots of $$$$ to waste there.
Wouldn't this one look good sitting beside the Allis 7 Loader?? No problem to get parts either! It is even from your state. http://www.machinerytrader.com/listings/construction-equipment/for-sale/11872421/cat-d7f
Oh I know where there is a open station ROPS D7F, would love to have one of those but the cash just isn't there. Had I a haul truck and enough sense to work side jobs I could see a newer Cat.
16 B still for sale ?
If it were closer & a few coins less, I would be tempted to look at it & sell the D6C..............
Have not been by the 16 for a few weeks. Co-worker said it was still sitting where last seen. I will be back thru there in three weeks so will know if is or sold. We got hard hit with some unexpected expenses, glad I had not bought the old beast now plus I am scheduled to have two discs replaced(not fusion) in my neck the 15th of March so will be down for a few weeks then, the third one MAYBE goes in after 6-8 weeks from then. A few too many motorcycle/truck/farm/work/playtime events of the past. Also having some stabbing pains from lower back, Doc said may have to revisit.
I have an HD 20 dozer. It was my Dad's but he recently passed away. How do I find the year on information on the machine. I would like to gather information and sell it.
Can you take a few pictures of it & post them, including some close ups of the engine? Some of those HD 20's had Detroit's in them.
No picture of engine with me. I'll visit the farm this weekend and take pictures of the engine.
Will be a 6/110 Detroit, 175HP, screams for all its worth at 1700rpm, 24V Pos ground system. Great machines where that one looks pick of the litter. There is another site, Allis Chalmers Forums where the sub title Construction Equipment will get you more info. The machine dates to the early 60's late 50's, a lot of fellas on the Allis site will look and drool. Based on the hard nose is a converted to hydraulic machine but still a great find as few came with a cab. Can just make out the blower under the exhaust above the frame. Good old machines, parts are scarcer than Hen's teeth but that one looks well attended. Chassis number if no tag on the dash area will be on the upper right rear facing corner of the final housing and will start off HD20 xxxxxx
DM, I would have thought it would be a 6-71 in a machine of that size..........no?? Looks like a nice old machine though.
Should be a 110. Odd engine but common to AC this size. As to the OP, the machine is in considerably good condition, being a plus but given the age you may be hard pressed to get a buyer at much of a price. This may be best off to a 'Make Offer' consideration once is confirmed does run. None of the undercarriage is available anymore but that looks as a non issue, the engine is getting really hard to find pieces for as well the clutch and transmission are fully obsolete with no one carrying more than a few of the bearings now. Any decent dozer that functions and runs well is worth a few thousand, to a collector this may be a prize they will light on. First function on the machine, get it started and clear of the spot its in, CLEAN the spoil off the trucks, clear any debris around the engine and if can get the junk out of the belly pans so does not catch fire and cook off.
That old HD20 would be perfect for me, but I'm broke and it's probably too far to affordably have it towed. Wish there was a cure for the never ending attraction for cantankerous iron with no parts support..... I've heard of a 6-110, never seen one though. Cant tell much about the undercarriage, but the grousers look really good at least.
HD20 will weigh out around 44,000, would be a major cost to move OH to TX unless you can come up with your own truck and driver. No other Driptroit sounds like a 110, and the 149 was a significant change from that.
Check this out: https://www.bing.com/videos/search?...95F1D1790D425678F74095F1D1790D42&&FORM=VDRVRV
I have a friend that is looking at having a 40,000lb planer moved from Ohio and set up in my shop. IIRC, he got a quote around 5k for the transport. That is a good sound. I'd definitely be wearing ear plugs and ear muff to run one all day though.... I like this guys videos, always good to see iron working, especially when it's Detroit powered.
Thanks everyone for your replies. It still runs but nobody has time to use it anymore. Hopefully, I'll find a new home for it.
I reposted one photo on Allis Forum, when decide on a asking price look to add the wording 'Or Reasonable Offer'. Don't have to take low ball offers. The machine is going to come in around the 1950-54 time frame, they discontinued the 20 I have been informed in 54, also went to the Buda Engine line for equipment after these.
Hi might be interested in your HD 20