Hi, new on here. i run an excavating company and have a few trucks one of which is a 1979 ford l9000 with a fuller 9 speed. When i push in the clutch it grind a little bit and the throw out bearing moves underneath when i grab it so im pretty sure its that. ive worked on a lot of stuff, but never the trans in these. So question is, can i put a new bearing on it and run it? OR is the throw out bearing part of the clutch? i cant seem to find just the throw out bearing for sale, only with the clutch? any help is appreciated, thanks!
The common and wised thing is to replace the lot while the gearbox is out.
It is part of the pressure plate assembly. Like said above, replace the entire clutch.
If it grinds going in to gear, it's out of adjustment. You need a pair of long 3/8 bolts. You should have a snug fit between the pressure plate and the body of the release bearing. With the pedal up, you should have an 1/8 between the fork to the release bearing. Please post a picture of your clutch pressure plate through the inspection hole so that we can better help you. There should be a disc between the release bearing and the input shaft bearing retainer. Can you spin that plate on the shaft? Or does it just slide back n forth? BACK TO BASICS
thanks everyone. @funwithfuel it doesnt grind at all and the clutch brake works good i adjusted it about 4k miles ago dont use it much. the trans goes in every gear and shifts very nice. At idle though, theres a loud rattle noise but if i push in the clutch a little bit, or rev up the motor ever so slighty, the noise goes away. looked on fullers sight and apparently gear chatter is common? I never had a truck that rattled at idle, this one has a big cam cummins and idle vibrates a lot so i dont know. when i parked it today i opend the door and pushed the clutch in and i heard a slight grinding. so between the grinding and rattle, i dont know if im better off just putting a whole new trans in it? what do you guys think? also maybe that loud chatter is the throwout bearing?
not to uncommon or worry some to have some noise from the throwout bearing on an old truck Have you greased the bearing? Otherwise its a clutch assembly might as well run it till it falls apart you might be surprised how long that is
The truck has been sitting since March I used it to haul some dirt so It hadn't been greased since then. I will grease it tomorrow. do you think the loud rattle could be the throw out bearing as well? I was worried something inside the trans was going to explode sounds like a loose bearing but like i said step on clutch like half inch and noise is gone. The noise is random too sometimes it will idle for half hour smooth then sometimes it has that rattle its driving me nuts because I need the truck now again for the summer but I'm worried of running it.
Yeah you could run it or have the luck of the pedal going to the floor while holding clutch pedal down at a stop light because the snap ring gave way on the throw-out bearing. Install a clutch in it.
Maybe I should... do I have to change the trans input shaft? I heard your supposed to?
Not necessarily depends on the wear on the input splines and pilot nose on the end of the input shaft.
Okay. And I guess I have to take the flywheel to machine shop to make it true again? Or is it not necessary? It used to be an over the road tractor converted to dump truck so the clutch never got used too much it was always in 9 cruising on the highway
Having the flywheel surface ground is a good idea, just make sure it's done at a shop that has turned 15.5 flywheels. The outer edge needs to be cut the same amount the plate area is cut. Replace the fork, cross shafts and cross shaft bushings in the bell hosing. And install a SB200 Babcock clutch brake and replace the pilot bearing 6306.
Alright thank you! Thinking about doing it myself. I work on big excavators and equipment all the time just never trans in a semi. Looks pretty straight forward, just take off the shifter, driveshaft, clutch linkage, bell housing bolts and the 2 big bolts on the back of the trans and it should just pull right out no? Any tips or tricks I should know?
Only tip is when putting it back in better be straight inline with engine as possible. Pretty straight forward, I did my first one in my front yard on plywood with motorcycle jack and few ratchet straps to pull it out as I wiggled it out.
Make damn sure you get the clutch fork on the proper side of the release bearing or you'll have to pull the transmission out again!
If it has a 15" clutch you can remove the bolts holding the clutch to the flywheel from the bell inspection hole and remove the clutch with the transmission as a unit, and install it the same way. You might have to use a bar to tip the clutch up slightly to start the first two bolts then bar engine over to start the rest and torque them to 55 LB FT. Below is a 15" clutch installed as a unit If it has a 14" clutch you will have to pull transmission then remove clutch and re-install the same way.
Is there any way to know if it's a 15 or 14 inch before removal?
The 14" clutch uses 3/8" bolts to bolt to flywheel, the 15" uses 7/16" bolts. What year and what engine are we dealing with?
It's a 1979 Ford l9000. Got a 9 speed fuller and a cummins ntc 230 formula motor. Thought it was a big cam but I guess not
If it's the original engine-NTC230 is a Big Cam II and will probably have a 14" Spicer clutch.
Yeah the oringal tag actually got lost it came off one day and I lost it somewhere but I could've sworn 1979 only had the big cam 1. But I have no idea maybe you're right though could be the big cam 2
Big cam 2 came out in '79, I think.
I'm new on this can I post a video of the sound so you guys can hear? The throw out bearing is one thing, but i dont know if it's also causing rattle it's so annoying
Post it on you tube or somewhere and post the link here, i think that's the easiest way to do it. Any chance you could take some pics through the inspection cover?
Might just be the center plate rattling around.
Yeah maybe tomorrow or Monday I'll be able to for sure
The last of the small cams were produced in 1975, the Big Cam came on board in 1976. Although Cummins continued to build and install small cam engines for the Gov/military into the 1980's. {A video would be great}. One other source of noise produced in the Cummins 855's with PT pump is the {vibration damper} especially at idle where there is a narrow rpm band. The torsional vibration created by the bottoming of the compression stroke will cause excessive transmission growl at idle. Raise the rpm from 600 to 700 and it normally disappear. Now that being said it doesn't mean the throw-bearing in your truck isn't bad. But the total life expectancy of the vibration damper is 380,000 miles and I would expect if you sanded the paint off the front of the vibration damper you would find a name of {Hydraulics Houdaille} a company that hasn't been in business for some time. I would bet it still has the original damper, Houdaille built all the dampers for Cummins, Cat and Detroit if those companies used viscous dampers. In most cases by installing a new damper the transmission noise disappears, but a bad vibration damper will cause broken crank shafts, cam shafts, accessory drives and will effect valve and injector timing. There is no real way to diagnose or inspect a damper except for measuring the thickness of the damper and even that is not reliable. But the silicone in the damper will harden after so many heat cycles and age, So most likely a very high percentage of engines are running with a trash vibration damper and a bunch of transmissions are diagnosed as worn gear train when the problem is torsional vibration. It is recommended that the vibration damper be replaced on any in-frame or major engine rebuild-but 90% of mechanics or repair shops including dealers never do it.
That is very interesting never knew that. The guy before had an inframe done around 700k it's got 800k so I'm 99% sure its original dampener. So since the company you mentioned is no longer in business, is it possible to even get another one now? And how hard is it to change just unbolt it from the front and it comes right off?
Yes you can still get one, and some are high dollar. Highway and Heavy Parts. com sells aftermarket with two year warranty IIRC. Around $300.00. If you decide to change it you will need to measure the total outside diameter, such as the higher horse power like 400 hp and up use a 13.5" damper. Normally the lower hp engines use a 12". Remove the alternator belts and remove the damper bolts, the pulleys behind it are removable. To install {torque the damper bolts to 115 LBFT.} It weighs about 40 lbs.
Okay sounds easy enough. Maybe I will try it I'm glad you mentioned it because I would literally never have even thought about that in a million years. When I give it ANY fuel just to raise rpms even 30-50 sounds goes away and run smooths so I bet that actually is it I just couldn't figure it out. Also I know on mine there are 2 partially drilled holes I'm assuming that's some type of timing mark? If so I'll be careful to mark where it came off
IIRC the part number for that damper is 211915, it should be on the face somewhere below the manufacture name. Also if it's drilled it could be the type that is rubber mounted and those can slip. But a picture would be nice if you can get one.
Okay might head to the shop in the morning if I have time. If not I'll get pictures and videos of everything Monday morning
Here's some videos I took this morning I forgot the take a picture of the damper but I got the rest hopefully you can hear the rattle I'm talking about it's hard to hear it in the video because the engine is so loud
Nice videos-Yes there some slack in the throw-out bearing but it will move some. And both throw-out bearing and noise created by torsional vibration will go away by depressing the clutch. That's why it's hard to diagnose. And I have witnessed that same noise even with a new clutch installed and in one of the videos it comes and goes. Which leads me in the direction of the damper IMO-for what that's worth which usually isn't much. And it looks to be a 14" clutch.
So a new throw out bearing even has a little slack? I'm going to order a damper and see if that helps first before pulling the trans. Anither strange thing I should mention is when I start it cold in the morning it usually doesnt rattle hardly at all. But once I run it and warmed up it does it more often but still comes and goes so hopefully its just the damper because I bought it off a guy i still know and he said it had the same rattle for 20 years since he bought it
Cold the engine is usually slightly below the rpm range idling at 550 as soon as it warms it hits 600 then the noise starts, when it climbs to 650 it goes away.
That's true didnt think about that. So would you even change that bearing if you were me? I might just leave it now and just do the damper
I can't tell you what to do only that there are a couple of different scenarios that will produce the same problem. But if it has a viscous damper it's way past due. The clutch could be a problem also, who knows if it's been changed, but I would expect so. Found a 211915 if that is what yours is. https://www.ebay.com/i/383369256672...1291&msclkid=261ff4a498ec1bfd9d07aa41eae75fad
That's perfect I'm going to go down monday and measure the length like in their picture to make sure it's the right one then I'll order it and do an update what happens. I really appreciate the help I talked to a lot of people and not one person mentioned that part. You know your stuff!
Also are these balanced? Like would it have to bolt on a certain way to be balanced with crank or can I throw it on with any bolt hole?
https://www.vibratechtvd.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/CUMMINS.pdf A viscous damper has no certain mounting pattern. I don't know anymore than any one else on here, I just have more crazy thoughts that anyone else.
I'll do like you said, sand it down and find the part number to double check but I'm sure that's the one. Let you know what happens!
Your crazy thoughts just might have saved me a ton of money and headache pulling that trans off only to find out that wasnt even it! I would not have been happy
Measured this today and today pics, not the same with different model number cant find it? Check out pics
Picture
I think if you contact Vibratech you will find that yours is obsolete and crosses to 211915, what is the diameter of that one.
If I remember from earlier it was slightly over 12.5 inch and the link you sent me from ebay measured about 12.25 inches. It looks to be exact bolt pattern so I dont think it will matter at all if its slight smaller in diameter right? I searched for a while for my part number literally nothing
I don't see a aftercooler on your engine in the video, Cummins made both a small cam and a big cam 230. Cummins was great at cleaning a warehouse to put engines together. Some small cams did have offset bolt pattern although I have never seen one. And that damper on yours is a stationary and were pretty useless, pretty common for the mirrors to shake even from day one. And yes that is a totally obsolete part number, Cummins could find it but they will tell you the same thing. The only thing IMO would be the mating surface of the pulley on the back.
Right no aftercooler. I guess I'll pull it off this week and look at the back to make sure it's the same. Also what is the difference from the stationary one from the viscous?
Stationary is just that, solid with only a rubber isolator ring in the middle. A viscous damper is enclosed with a ring that rotates inside.
Oh okay I see so the one I have like you said is pretty much useless
One thing I seem to recall being told is that one way to tell is a viscous damper is bad besides the measuring the thickness is if it does NOT get warm from running. Theory was that if the silicon had gone bad and hardened there would be no movement to cause it to warm up. Not sure how you can determine if it is warm from the heat of engine or from the movement of the internal ring and fluid. Guess to be accurate you would have to compare to a known good one with engines running on both for the same amount of time. I looked through some of my old notes from classes back in the day but could not find anything on dampers. I know that some of the rubber ring dampers have chisel marks that you can check to see if there has been movement between the outer ring and the hub.
Interesting. mine had the date stamped on it from when the truck was made so I'm sure by now its shot. I felt the rubber ring it was very hard probably not doing a thing
There was one procedure for checking for fluid leaks. Place damper in oven at 200* for one hour to see if fluid would leak from crimped sealing edge. But most of them the fluid urns to a black mud the consistency of thick peanut butter, the ring can't rotate in that.
For a couple hundred bucks may as well just change it if you're going to do all that
Normally changing/installing a new damper will cut the gear growl/noise by 60 to 70%. Then you raise the idle about 20 to 30 rpm to remove the rest of the noise. Idle speed is 580 to 680.
Used the truck for about 10 hours today didnt do it much at all now but I'm still going to change it. However I did notice this morning when greasing the truck, the yoke on the trans output shaft moves up and down a little bit. The actual trans shaft doesnt move at all just the yoke I heard just drop the driveshaft and run a 3/4 impact down on that nut because sometimes they back off?
Correct, or torque it to 450 lbft.
I done pickup rears where theres not a torque but you check the drag because they pull on the bearing. Is this not like that, for example if I overtighten will it fry the bearing?
Now to compliment what I said about dealers not changing vibration dampers. It's been 7 years ago that a customer we did work for and a cheap skate had a 6TS 3406 1997 Cat in a T800 inframed by a Cat dealer and surprisingly he bought a OPT warranty. It run roughly 150,000 more miles and broke the crank, Cat warrantied the original crank under the OPT. When it came back to our shop a few months later for electrical work I noticed it still had the original viscous damper that was on it when it broke the crank, Cat reused it, at that point it had around 850,000 miles on it.
No, the rear output bearings are machined and matched to the races and there is a spacer between the bearing cones so when the output shaft nut is tightened it will only load the bearing to the pre-determined preload/ shaft end play.
That's crazy. I never knew how important that piece is never once did I hear of anyone changing it. Now I know! Call vibratech today couldnt cross any numbers over, however he have me a spec sheet for 211915 so I'll measure bolt pattern tomorrow hopefully it fits. If not, I'm stuck on where to get one