I've witnessed some and heard about some. Its kind of my fear since I'm looking for one. I don't mind a small project on a many thousand dollar purchase, I just don't want to end up with some huge problem. A person is usually only allowed to dig just so deep checking something out when looking to buy. Not everyone wants you removing filters etc, nor do they want the associated mess either. I say finals are one of the worse things to deal with, especially if it won't move. I appreciate all the good answers I get on this site.
If you don't know what you are looking at, it is worthwhile to get someone to do it for you. There are professionals who do nothing but evaluate equipment for a living.
LOL horror stories!? Yeah, about every auction purchase throughout this entire website.
Thanks for ringing my bell. I live east of Auburn, Wa. chidog, If you see anything you are interested in PM me a phone number and I'll call to talk to you about it.
I'm not a fan of putting a phone number on a forum, even a PM. Though another set of eyes on it would be nice.
Chidog, if you don't call John C at least check out his book he wrote on the subject, it is really good. I am not finding it though, maybe he will post a link.
Well worth your money to contact John C. He knows his stuff and is well respected here.
@chidog , This is the link to @John C. book https://www.amazon.com/dp/B073ZXGQNJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_glt_93C2Y6R8T5D2EMTH1W9A
Well, i have a tale to tell you. Back in '84 i was looking for a farm dozer for land clearing and filling small sloughs. I had run cat dozers from d5 to d8 and decided on a d7 or d8 size. I looked at a few and then a local d8h 46a came up through the grapevine. I talked to the owner who was clueless about equipment and the engine was 'rebuilt' by the most wonderful guy in the world who flew his own plane in to do the job. The local cat guy was too expensive. Lol. I test drove it, pulled the final drive filters(looked good) and finally went ahead and bought it. We were running it 24hrs a day and the engine developed a hard knock after about 40 hrs. Tore it apart out in the bush and carted the engine and torque back to the yard. Long story short, block had an internal crack a foot long and a spun rod bearing. Also other issues due to the last 'rebuild' I had d8 scattered over an acre. It took a year to get it running again. Another block and crank and other stuff. If i wasn't already a mechanic it would have broke me. I suspect someone overheated it and poured cold water into a hot engine. I still have the d8 and in the long run it paid for itself. I put about 3000hrs on it
I have my own experience with buying a used machine and having it die right away. In 2014 I bought my grandpa's old 310A Deere backhoe. Only 300 hours on an engine overhaul that my grandpa paid for while he owned it from a very reputable shop. I felt very good about this machine knowing its history. I paid $8000 for the machine. I drove it home, and put about 40 hours on it and lost all hydraulics one day. After learning a lot about hydraulic systems and studying my service manual, I found it had shelled the main hydraulic pump. By the time I was done with repairs, I had over $1200 in it, not counting my labor and 2 or 3 months time troubleshooting and then doing the repairs. I've replaced starter, batteries (twice), alternator, several hoses, filters, countless buckets of hydraulic fluid, filters, and front tires. It still needs rear tires replaced, paint is in rough shape, lots of cracked hoses, and just recently, I have lost the right brake. I suspect contamination in the master cylinder. Heavy equipment is not cheap to own.
There is a thread here where a guy bought a 650g from a dealer, and he had barely started using it when a final started hemorrhaging oil and the turbo blew up. If you are worried about buying something, it would help a lot to research your local area's consumer protection laws and either brush up on your mechanical aptitude or find a trustworthy third party to look it over. Also remember with heavy machinery, you get what you pay for, and unfortunately that also includes reliability.
The equipment went to auction for a reason!
I might be adding a story to this thread. There are 2 local D9s, and I can't keep thinking for the right price, I should bring one home...
Are you a banker?
If you get a real good price on a dozer, figure it is going to cost you twice what you paid for it in the first 100 hours. If you pay top dollar for a dozer, hope that it isn't going to cost you twice what you paid for it in the first 100 hours.
Good one Acoals. Joe H
Even if you know what your looking it its always a gamble. You don’t really know the history of a machine until you start working it, or more importantly working ON it. There can be some terrible sins buried in there you don’t know about until you start taking things apart. With that said, I have a good story about buying a dozer. Bought my Case 450c wide track a while ago and have had very good luck with it. The machine had been sitting for around 10yrs, unused, outside before I bought it. Every cylinder leaked, several hoses rotten, but it did run, had only 2500 orignial hours and very good undercarriage. Barely got to run it since it was leaking hyd fluid bad from the belly pan. Took a huge gamble on it and ‘knock on wood’ seems to have been a good one. Repacked all the cylinders, put 14 new hoses on and full service when I got it then put it straight to work on several very large and demanding jobs. Put 200hrs on it that first summer and only unexpected problem was one blown transmission hose and a bad water pump. The amount of work I did with it paid for itself in the first 3mo.
I can think of many sins buried in them. It has to do with JB Weld and just plain welding. Not by choice, but by the owners choice, I am guilty of many of those sins. So I know the good the bad and the ugly of the old D7's to D9's very well. And is why I say they are all way over priced. You gotta love when a seller brags about the engine or what ever has been recently rebuilt. Sure just read what others here say about that.
I always make sure I buy at a good price So if I have to put 10 or 20K depending on what it is so I don't get upside-down in it I like to buy non operational and most of the time it is something stupid and cheap fix
Well....no. Made my money treating people right and being honest!
I like reading stories of equipment purchased priced fair and being a good investment, or fitting a want/need exactly. I also like when people are honest and realize they really "effed" up with a purchase, or the damned thing is just a few bucks from breaking a marriage, or causing to take up residency in the poor house. Could do without the crying or pleading online that takes place with the later however. That's called life in general, gains and setbacks, profit and loss etc. Nobody wins 100% but the intelligent learn from mistakes to hopefully not make them again. I tend to attempt to purchase anything wanted priced fair; not cheap, but FAIR. Have enough in my personal "slush" to fund anything I'd want, and willing to wait on the right deal to come along as financing is not an option, (by choice) for me. Can't actually say if I have good credit or not, as don't know, and nobody shares ownership around here except me and the dog in the little house out back sometimes.
Anywhere in the world, machines are machines, when one looks at them at a glance, one see nothing... one got to talk around and give time to the deal and watch , overwatch , and then one start to see things out of place.... then figure out why was this hose replaced, why is that weld there... and so on. I´m no expert, very often fooled, but one can´t do good deals all the time, just cause every time one does a good deal the other part does a bad deal! Just seen a farm tractor the other day, owner was a comercial company, with own shop and mechanics, they repainted it with decals too, and fix some issues on the tractor, cab is perfect for the age and all devices including AC was working... all mirrors and glasses...new tires and so on, from a far one might got inlove imediatly... After some carefull looking and searching found out the turbocharger was knocked down, from their mechanic surprise face, looks like they haven´t checked it... engine was blowing by more than expected for the 12k hours it showed, also the hitch wear did not match 12k H, but, when i was down the machine to remove the strainers, i realized they haven´t been touched since new, paint on bolts was original. (usually besides trans fluid replacement every 1k H , manual calls for strainer checks). that was a good sign about the transmission. As this TMX are known to last 20k/30k hour without overhaul. Went home with a day lost. Months went by and haven´t found nothing better, actually everithing way worst for the same money. Called the guys, they still had the tractor, told them: are u willing to buy the spare parts so i can rebuild the engine ? they reluctantly agreed and we both made a bad deal...
$20- $100K is nothing to spend if an engine fails and if you need to do a transmission and can't do it all yourself. I am currently about to start on an old Komatsu D155 engine that needs crank and lots more. 100K is almost nothing. But a new dozer is over 1 Million Canadian from what I am told. Buyer Beware. Simon C
Just worked on a Kubota tractor with 3600HRS, 60 H.P. unit. Did all the oils on the machine. It was the first time for all other oils other than the engine. The hydraulic filter was just full of cutttings. There was so many big chunks in it, that it is junked. Owner didn't know you have to change all oils at 50HRS, 600HRS, 1200HRS, 1800HRS, 2400HRS 3000HRS. Has clean oil in now but is pure junk. Buyer beware. Simon C
I thought if a machine can run trouble free for the first 100 hours of use to a new owner the last one more than likely did not know of any issues . Of course that would be out the window if the past owner did a shifty repair job or could see problems coming with SOS . Find the real reason why the machine is being sold and not the offered one . Ask around , folks will know .
Haha. Well put.
Friend's customer said "But it had oil in it when I bought it", unfortunately for him, not now. Joe H
“Oh this 50-60 year old dozer runs great and the seller says everything was just rebuilt! Do you think I should buy it?” A chorus of make sure you check it carefully responses lol And then the next thread a week later is “It won’t move once the transmission gets hot” or “it over heats after 30 minutes” and “the seller won’t answer phone calls” Comedy gold lol
No, no you should not lol
Butt they are a good buy ,I can get it for just barely scrap price. Bad Bob
I still wonder what happened with the guy who brought 1 or 2 huge mining shovels to his suburban/rural home on here. Thread was going good and then just dropped off.
Forgot about that thread. I'd like to know how it all turned out as well. Big tractors break big parts..
There is a Komatsu PC800 near the shop, parked right next to Pearson's scrapyard on Portland Ave. It has the counterweight off and some doors, looks like maybe pumps but I need to stop and walk around it. I wonder if they unloaded it there to work on deliberately. It is a forklift trip to the scale
I wish I had that sort of pocket change, and could call it nothin. No wonder all the worn out junk is so over priced.
Even new gear. Leased a brand new D8N to Shaan-Seet on PoW. RH idler was shipped with no oil in it. Ran about 50 hours like that. Had to fly a new one to Trocadero on an Otter. Trying to unload that heavy B without dropping it in Davy Jones locker. Good times. Thanks to those rigging rats who aren’t afraid to lift things mere mortals should not.
an 8N idler at the dock has a bad ring to it. The little toolbox magnet will not get that one back
I agree!
If they go for scrap, I'm definitely buying one!
If they are the same model, buy both. you just might have a working one between them.
Purchased a Cat 931 recently. Ran very well. Had blow by...sure! Dont they all?.. Ran for about 20 hours and then the smoke changed color. (blue to white). Started up the ridge toward the ole pole barn to be safe. Made it about half way when the rod started knocking.... tried to shut her down but was too late. Threw a rod out the side of the block! $8500 for the machine. $3800 for a replacement long block. Have not purchased internals or paid the machine shop yet. Maybe not a horror story as much as a cautionary tale of buyer be wary...
Ouch. Is the machine worth repairing?
Con rod holes in blocks are usually a very fixable deal and for a fraction of that $3800.. How bad was it?
A good used 3204 block shouldn't cost $3800 - and there's plenty of engines running just fine with holes in blocks that had block patches installed. There's some good high-nickel cast-iron electrodes around that produce excellent cast iron repairs. It simply pays to know your tractors weaknesses, and who ran it, the likely total hours, and what they were like for el-cheapo repairs that were done to sell it, not to keep it. Both the 3204 and the 3208 are noted for having weak pistons, especially the original 2 ring design of the 70's and early 80's. The wrist pin bushing is also a weak spot, never use anything but genuine Cat wrist pin bushings and ensure that they're installed to specifications precisely. Even the conrod bolts are lightweight, and should be replaced when the engine is overhauled. When the brother and I first started in business in 1964, we were young and green. The brother bought an Allis-Chalmers HD11 that showed 4000 hrs on the electric hour meter. He was convinced by the salesman that the tractor was a great machine, and the hours were genuine. We bought it and shortly afterwards, things started breaking right, left and centre. We broke sprocket centres, broke brake bands, had major torque converter problems (found out later that the dealer had done a torque converter repair and left a big cleaning rag inside the oil lines!! What a mess, it tore up and got pumped through everything!). Of course, the dealer denied any responsibility and it was impossible to prove the rag was left there by their mechanic. The engine overheated and the entire cooling system, plus engine, needed to be rebuilt. The worn tracks gave us constant trouble with loose track pins falling out every second day! Then we found out from a previous employee of the owner, that the owner would disconnect the HD11 hour meter for long periods! The tractor had probably done over 10,000 hours! The final straw was when the locally-built ripper tore itself off the back end housing of the tractor!! We spent over a week rebuilding the mounting plate, replacing broken studs, and repairing stripped bolt holes! That tractor sure was a sharp learning curve, and we knew if we kept it, it would break us. Part of the problem was the AC transmission design with a high-multiplication ratio, torque converter. These AC torque converters had a multiplication ratio of up to 6 to 1 - meaning the tractor slowed down a lot under load, and the torque output went through the roof. At stall, the old HD11 had nearly the same drawbar pull as the current Cat D8H at 1mph. This meant the HD11 drivetrain from the torque converter back was subject to stresses it was never designed for with a direct drive transmission. We tore the spokes out of track sprockets every few months. After 18 mths, we'd had enough of doing more wrenching than earthmoving! We had a huge backlog of work to be done, so we traded that PIA HD11 on a new Cat D6C in 1966, and we were in earthmoving heaven!! The D6C was the most trouble-free tractor we ever owned, and we ended up buying a second new one in 1968.
I have heard stories of the earlier HD-11 series doing just as you have stated with the spokes and tearing up the drivetrains. The series "B" addressed that with a standard 3:1 torque multiplication ratio and solid drive sprockets with segments. I understand it was a very well mannered tractor afterward with these design changes. The same type engineering changes were carried over into the HD-16 and HD-21 series also. If'n I had my druthers and were looking for a used tractor it would be a D6C, or D6D as I think their power to weight ratio is just about right and the parts availability is still good. However, this current infection of my A-C HD-11 Series B tractor will have to do for now as I really do like it.
The AC HD-11 the brother and I owned was a '62 model HD-11 EC - torque converter drive coupled to a 3 speed gear drive transmission. It was nothing but trouble. But the guy the brother worked for previously owned (late 1950's) HD-11 B's (direct drive with clutch and countershaft transmission) and they were good little tractors - even if they were light in the undercarriage, like all A-C's. A local contractor we used to work in with, bought a new HD-11 EP, the powershift version, around 1968 I think it was, and that was a far better tractor than the HD-11 EC. The A-C's were well-engineered in many ways, with simple disassembly and assembly techniques (no special tools or pullers, unlike Cat), and good steel in their components - but they didn't have the massive inbuilt strength of the Cats - and their track rollers with roller bearings were a constant PIA, they were always fracturing bearings. The Cats with their bronze bushed track rollers were far more reliable, even if they didn't have the rolling efficiency of the A-C rollers. The A-C's were always good performing machines, they would outpush any Cat - but they couldn't keep it up without something breaking. Not a lot of people would recall that A-C actually invented and produced the sealed and lubricated track before Cat - in the late 1960's. But A-C couldn't make it reliable, the seals would chew out rapidly on their SALT undercarriage. However, Cat woke up to the need for a thrust washer to prevent the seal damage, and they succeeded with SALT where A-C failed.
Thank you for your honest, unbiased interpretation. Don't really get that much anymore; and I agree wholeheartedly. The series "B" tractor(s) were an improvement to many of the things mentioned including upgrading the undercarriage. I have two friends still living that built them up and another that built finals and we converse fairly regularly. I was aware that A-C pioneered the use of the SALT track and believe it or not, have met the gent that either came up with, or worked to implement the track system. He was a department head back when I was there, and a nice guy to talk with. As far as I know, the Series "B" tractors all used the bronze bushed roller system as was proven much stronger and durable than the roller bearing style as you mention. Never seen any of them apart as they came in a shipping crate containing 24 and I staged such items at assembly stations with a forklift. My ability to operate a forklift got me in the door, but they were in such a quagmire with Fiat in the mix, nobody was getting hired permanent. Like you mention, common and easily available tools to work and maintain them. Everything hydraulics was off the shelf available and OTC was the primary vendor.
A neighbor and local dirt contractor purchased a new 2022 Cat d6. He has two or three d6t's. New d6 motor puked at 400 hours. Cat picked it up and put a new motor in it under warranty. He said it took about three months to get the unit back. Cat put a 'new' reman motor in it with full warranty. Neighbor said in the area of $50-$60K if no warranty, but his guys would have probably rebuilt it for a whole lot less if block, crank, and cam still ok. I don't know why the engine failed.
In too deep now. Jasper engine had no numbers on it and the set up seems odd. Pistons have insert in the tops. Non rod style injectors. Does cat have multiple head styles for the 3204? Will any DI 3204 interchange and bolt up to the transmission? The engine i purchased is 3204 DI 45V22532 / AR 7n5139
Probably not. What was the Arrangement Number of the failed engine.? Edit: It might pay you to start a new thread for this issue.
Will do
Cat 931 engine mystery.... Starting a new thread as advised. Purchased a Cat 931 without doing due diligence and now I have a bucket of questions that need help sorting out. I have been unable to find a serial number on the machine bevel gear housing will be my last try in the morning. The machine had a jasper engine... HeavyEquipmentForums