Im an owner operator of a cat 420d for about 10 years now. Back in April I bought a Kubota u25 and I have seen the light. I am now seriously considering selling my backhoe to get a 6 ton mini and a CTL. I work almost exclusively for a foundation contractor and the scope of the work we do has changed so drastically in the last few years I have almost no space to run the backhoe. I am wondering if anyone could put some kind of percentage number on the two machines vs. my backhoe. im thinking ill be 30% more efficient on most jobs and almost 50% on other tighter ones. I know that you guys have made the switch from backhoe to excavator and would like to hear some experiences that you guys have had? pros/cons ? am I way off in my thinking?
I know our company had 5 backhoes and 3 mini's 7yrs ago. Now we are down to 2 backhoes and have 6 mini's. Our backhoe buckets haven't left the yard in over 2yrs, they just leave the hoepack on all the time. That tells me that the operators greatly prefer digging with a mini even though most of ours are much smaller than the 580m-2's that we have.
This video illustrates the backhoe vs mini excavator issue. The mini using less fuel than the back hoe. The main thing is to get the best mini excavator possible. http://youtu.be/2Uu9-lReXSM How much of the site preparation do you do? The Compact track loader can run a laser controlled leveller etc.
thanks Plebeian I have seen that video before the backhoe seems a little slow but I get that message. I don't do a lot of site prep but with those two machine's I want to start to broaden the scope of work that I do.
Mini's are nice for some jobs and tasks but I wouldn't consider giving up my backhoe completely for a mini. For example....... How big of mini ex does everyone think it would take to dig out this stump? Then what size ex to load it into the dump truck? Pictures don't do this stump justice, I had my doubts it the backhoe was going to get the job done.
LT I don't do much land clearing at all. the machines im looking into getting the Kubota u55 and Kubota svl 90 between those two machines im sure I could find a way to load some stumps and if not id bid in a rental that could handle it. most of the work I see now is tight quarters or a house that is PL to PL , or basement dig. being able to deposit spoils 360 degrees from the work zone is really what I need .
I always have to chuckle at the irony. Back in the early 80's I worked for a funny guy with vision that brought in what I believe to be the first mini excavators on the West coast if not the US. We were laughed at even with a five ton machine, let alone the smaller ones. We sold a few and the guys that had the openness of mind to see the advantages loved them. Now you can't go around a block anywhere without seeing at least one, some of them small enough to put in your hip pocket. Obviously there's still a place for the TLB but for most contractors the combination of a mini with a CTL is the cat's patootie. Nissan Mini-Giant, RIP
I don't do a ton of land clearing either I just don't like the idea of limiting myself on the type of work I can do. In my neck of the woods you have to be versitle if you want to stay remotely busy. Funny you should mention the rental..... When I cleared this lot 2 weeks before I rented a Kobelco 170, then after I was done and the ex sent back the property owner decided to move the house about 10'. Which meant this tree had to go. Since this is in a remote location 3 hours from a rental store I opted to give it a shot with the backhoe. It would have cost me about $1500 to get the ex back out to the site for one day. If you plan to dig foundations 90% of the time and don't want to tackle other stuff, I agree without question the mini ex and skid is the way to go. For my particular situation the problem is it really takes 2 operators to make this combo productive. I don't have 2 operators, I have...... me, & I use the term "operator" loosely. My Dad (in the picture above) is more than willing to help but isn't happy in a machine. So how much more productive would it be if you had to seat hop? Would it still be 30% more productive over the backhoe with only one machine working at a time?
Why buy 2 machines? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkYU7-93-TQ
That video is grossly misleading. If the backhoe had bigger buckets on it: a 36" digging bucket and a deeper trenching bucket, the outcome would not have been the same. That said, mini excavators suit my needs better than a backhoe.
I have owned both for many years. Now we have only mini excavators and CTL's , with a new 316 and a few dozers but not a single backhoe in my fleet now. Your production with the right mini will increase substantially. It's difficult to place a number on it with out knowing details of your work but if its strictly foundation work your production should be close to double that of a backhoe , all things being equal , that would be a fair figure. Less trouble to transport as well. Much better for tight places where a backhoe could never fit, more economical to operate etc etc....lots of plus with the Mini Ex. I consider backhoes old school now...
thanks pa this was the kind of info I was looking for. within the first 3 hours of running my mini I knew my backhoe was antiquated . id like to get something in the 6-7 ton class and I need a ctl that's big enough to load dump trucks and end dumps. my figuring was 30% on most jobs but up to 50% on the really tight stuff. I plan on buying both machines new. its very rare that I can road the machine to the next job so that isn't part of my equation.
I have always used a mini ex and skid steer. There are times when it is inconvenient, but never enough for me to justify a backhoe. I have built a good business around the big mini/ big CTL concept. I wouldn't have it any other way. I also have a large wheeled skid steer for the times when a CTL is not appropriate.
That's pretty cool. I want one lol
Happy to help Wedge.... The 303.5, 304.5 and 305.5 CAT are all great Mini's Excavators. the 299XHP is an absolute animal of a CTL, big and powerful, The biggest and badest CTL on the market today...The XHP stands for "extra high price", I know this first hand , I own a bunch of them, Steel track units with full forestry packages... ...around my farm and close to home I have working with my 303.5 and a 289D , both are 2014 models purchased brand new this year for personal use. I dont let my guys touch either one of these machines ever. I have nothing but good things to say about both the 303.5 and 289D , both are extremely capable for most tasks around the farm and the occasional money making venture close to home. Very Economical too operate and fit Into allot of tight spaces. I put the CAT 4 in 1 bucket on my 289D and love it. On the 303.5 I have the 1 foot, and 2 foot extreme duty rock buckets along with a swivel bucket for ditching etc...you can spin it 360 degrees, tilt it side to side , again super super handy and a relatively expensive option but worth it in my opinion. Also the machine has a hydro thumb....Good luck in your search and if I can help just shout at me.
I said the same thing wheeler....that unit is very cool. Would love to try one out.....I like the idea .....why didn't any of us on here think of this ?
It looks like it doesn't have very good breakout force or pushing ability he's not filling the bucket full and is in loose gravel and with the stick cydl.on the bottom it would not have much break out in the backhoe configuration either :IMO it's a pretty slick idea though
I am also a fan of the skid or CTL with a good sized mini ex. I have a friend with a U55 Kubota, and it is a great machine.
Wouldn't that be dumping it back in the same hole? Greg
Ha ha....Funny stuff greg.... I think 180 degrees is what he is desperately seeking to say...360 degrees would be right back in the same place it just came from....
i was just speaking to versatility . although i have gone 270 on my excavator working around a corner
I figured that was what you meant, it just struck me as funny. Didn't mean to derail the thread. Greg
yup, grade and backfill in the same scoop lol
I have a cat 305.5D mini which has been great and a 420DIT backhoe.. It really depends on what you are doing the ground where I work can get extremely hard not to the point where it needs to be hammered but close. When it gets that hard the backhoe is more productive the boom on the 420D is ridiculously strong, and digging large stumps will be more productive just based on power. Other than that the mini hands down. I also have an extra capacity 24 in bucket on the 305.5D which it handles no problem which puts the c.u.ft. capacity the same as the backhoe
There is a lot to consider in this question. I used to live in Vta. Co. (like the OP reports) and started my business, back in '96, with a 416B. My primary work was foundation excavation for masonry, tilt-ups, and custom homes. I also did utility work. Some of the masonry work was garden wall footings (usually proto II) on tract homes. Tract homes in SoCal are usually 5' from P/L and I could still get the backhoe in there. I had a competitor that began using a mini for the same work. My backhoe could out produce the mini, hands down, despite the mini being more size appropriate for the conditions. Since I have moved I have changed my business model and now have a mini (Bobcat 435, [+/- 12,000# as equipped]), and a skid (Bobcat A300). I still have my 416 (now a C model with over 12,000 hours), along with other, larger equipment. The mini and the skid are a good combination but my backhoe will out dig the mini by a lot. In my opinion one would need a bigger machine (which would negate the small size advantages) to match production of the backhoe. The mini has a lot of advantages (full house rotation, plus swing separate from the house, track mounted, etc.) but if it's smaller than the 'hoe it will not have the same bucket capacity capability, or break out forces. Only you really know what jobsite conditions you will encounter, and so it will be hard for others to give the best advice. From what I remember about my work in SoCal the mini/ctl combo would not have been the best combination, and definitely not 50% more productive. I certainly would not tell you not to make the investment though. I might recommend that you keep the backhoe though. That way you can have more versatility.
I have had experience in several different backhoes from deere 310sj's, case 580sm2's, cat 420e, new Volvo, and new New Holland. Cat makes the best cab, deere and case do an alright job about even, Volvo's are odd, and your going to be hard pressed to outperform a new Holland, especially the 115b's. That being said, I wouldn't trade you my takeuchi tb053fr for any of them. At just under 7 ton, it will beat a backhoe in straight line digging across an open field, and make a backhoe look foolish when digging basements. I have a hydraulic thumb, 2' and 3' digging buckets w/ a wain roy coupler - get a different one, other than that I love it. As for digging an lifting, I do very well, I lack a little, not its not an issue, I just start getting tippy with a heaping load on in the 3' bucket. Here is a pic of a addition that I dug and hauled out. Oh, and I have a ctl too, a gehl ctl 70 which is a takeuchi 140, it handles an 80" bucket very well. It can load a triaxle but its not the same as having a tlb, as it lacks the foreward reach. I think if you demo'ed a takeuchi tb153fr or the bigger tb180fr, and I'll bet you keep it.
DGODGR beat me to it, good advice. That being said I'll chime in. I have a 420DIT and I had (sold it) it a Bobcat 334 - it was tired and someone wanted it more than it worked. For my business, I can't justify a new mini in the size I would want. A new 305.5E runs $70K there a bouts with cab and A/C. I can't run it enough to justify that expense. The 420 has paid for itself a few times over and is a stronger machine than the 305.5 and comes with a front bucket, quick attach and forks. A 420 will set a 4x4 pre-cast knock out box where a 305.5 will not. The 420 can carry that same box across the site and then bring bedding material for the pipe. It can also load out a tri-axle, however I can pull a 305.5 to the job with my F350. Most of the sites I work on are big enough that the maneuverability of a mini is not enough to offset the versatility of the 420. Only you can determine which machine will fit your specific needs, the machines we need differ as much as the jobs we do. :cool2
Available in the States? I can not find a dealer in the USA. Might trade the Cat for one. Any idea on the cost for one?
stumpjumpers experience is closer to what I have to deal with. my title I think is a bit misleading im in the market for a "midi" I should have said. the break out force of the machine I plan to replace my 420 with will be comparable . im thinking 13k - 14k ex and a 10k ctl. most of my work now is extremely tight spaces ie basements with complicated footing details and plumbing and ejection systems. I pretty sure of what im looking foe and plan on demoing the ex and ctl combos from cat, deere , Kubota , and Hyundai. I appreciate all the input but I was more specifically looking for some production type numbers to kind of get a feel for what I might be able to do. I feel like im loosing work to the slow production of my machine. alothough I know im faster than other guys on my hoe than two guys are on mini ctl combos. last week I started a job same size as the one next door ad these guys were already working on and finished a day ahead of them. I walked their job and their work was ****. im not a guy who blames his shoes when he cant run fast enough.
I checked the Mecalac website. They don't list anything for North America. Sorry
Id love to give you some numbers man, but I don't want to miss lead you. We are not in typical mass excavation here where everything is ideal, we are into tight quarter, limited access, you better know what your doing excavation. I can tell you this, Ive moved 280 cu yrds, 500 with 2 trucks, from behind this building in a day with only one truck. But the dirt was beside a old coal mine and I believe was exposed to dynamite repeatedly, bucket tore thru it like a knife thru butter. At the end of the thread your going to have to call a dealer and rent or demo one to know for yourself. Here is some midi excavator porn. sometimes you don't have any room at all... can't do this with any other hoe... its a lot for it but I was able to pick, carry and set this boulder
I'm resurrecting this old thread because I'd like to know if anyone has any experience with Mecalac machines? I have contacted Mecalac to determine if and when they may become available in the US market. For the projects I am now involved with installing dry underground utilities for power and communications distribution these machines would seem the ideal, adding the auger attachment and a small diameter grapple would even allow me to set street light poles. Having to transport and deal with one versatile machine per project would make logistics much easier and more economical since projects range all over Central and South Florida both coasts too. Clearly they're manufactured in and mostly used in Europe so I am seeking information from European members. Thank you in advance for any input...
Word I got from a friend that inquired the factory was they were not looking to market in the Americas anytime soon. I like this machine though.
Well, that's not good news at all. They do sell them in Mexico, I wonder how that could be helpful...
That machine would be ideal for site lighting and conduit. Trench all the conduit, drill the pole bases and set the light poles. There's good money in that.
There is VERY good money in underground power and communications work. Ever since the 2004 hurricane season when Florida got walloped by four storms then Momma Nature followed that with the encore known as Wilma in '05 there has been a huge drive to get all distribution underground. What people neglect to consider, all transmission is still overhead and will remain so for the foreseeable future but, I won't argue with damn good money. And yes the Mecalac would be superb for this type of work especially with a pole grapple and pole extractor attachment. Mostly all the old poles we remove are replaced with wind-rated fiber or crete poles with LED light heads atop. Now, if I can convince Mecalac to configure the 714MWe Wheeled Excavator in the same fashion, I'd have cake AND pie and be able to eat both. Wheeled for me is really the way to go as some of the projects are expansive, we'll see, all they can say is no!
All you have to do to bring one in I would think is make sure the engine meets current EPA regulations. If it's got a CE or EU emissions sticker that may be enough, along with a letter from the engine maker. Probably easier if it's declared as a used machine, but I won't swear to it.
I received a reply from Mecalac, apparently they are in the process of delivering a machine -not sure which machine- to NYC for contractor evaluation, delivery timeframe wasn't disclosed. Seems they've received numerous request from the US for access to their machines. Perhaps in the near future we'll be able to acquire these versatile machines after all, nothing could make me happier to at least demo one but still would like to hear from those in Europe who operate Mecalac's.
We sell them. Granted your post was from 3+ years ago now. Check us out at, www.lhequip.com
We are selling them out of MA. if you have any interest give us a call, 508-660-7600
I saw these at Conexpo, last year. Pretty cool machines from watching the demo they put on.
Mecalac did a great job with the display and demo. They want market share.
Times are good, they need to get some dealers signed up and they could get market share.
Interesting watching the backhoe versus the mini ex . I thought that you used the boom on the backhoe to push yourself backward and pull your self forward . Turning the seat around to drive forward or backwards seems to be a waste of time and not very professional . Especially when trenching .I think there will always be a place for tractor backhoe
I never turn around the seat and "drive" to the next set ,on my backhoe, unless there is some condition that makes it too hard to push myself with the hoe (as you describe above).