here's the deal, my hosue was built in '06-'07 and since i have faught no less than 10-15 leaks from pipes having this problem. so far the problem has been isolated to the 1/2" recirc line, had a pump on it but years ago i unplugged it and turned the valve off in hopes of curing this problem. the tubing will develop pitting from the inside out, sometimes its near a fitting sometimes its not, i have isolated with di-electric unions and grounded to breaker panel earth ground (recomended by a plumber) but with L pipe as an entrance i would guess it's about as grounded as it needed to be, the corrosion is so bad that once every day or two you have to take the strainer out of the faucets and dump the crud out, the house also has a charcoal and paper filter, i have the shop and 2 other structures off the same water supply line so im sure the quality of the water is fair..... the pinholes have been isolated to the utility room downstairs where they are not covered with sheetrock thankfully but im dreding the day that we have a pipe burst behind the wall as its just a matter of time. does anyone have any ideas ? i have exhausted all of my recources of the knowladge of local plumbers and they have NEVER experianced this problem, my thougts are with the house being built when it was and copper so damned high im thinking they might have substituted some crappy material for copper to help lower price?? i have cut a 1' section of the pipe out, cut it and laid it flat and sent it to crestline (pipe mfg) and of course they didnt accept ANY responsibility. i cut this piece out today, sorry the pics arent that good pj
What size (model) of pump was on the recirc line? The most common issue is too high of velocity with a little bit of grit. I'd guess that you're still dealing with the results of the pump. Why not just cut the whole recirc line out and replace it with pex? What kind of junk do you find in the filter? The only thing I know that will affect copper is acidic water or sulfur compounds.
That is strange PJ . I'm sure copper isn't what it used to be . My parents home was plumbed with copper in the early 1950's and it's just now starting to show some small weeps & corrosion on a few sections . I assume it also is starting from the inside of the tubing . Just looks like a light green corrosion growth on the outside of the tubing with a very slow drip of water coming from around it . We use spring water so I don't know if that makes a difference or not . We will replace it with PVC .
I work for a plumber that is a local rep for Curaflow. Basically an epoxy lining that gets pumped through the piping. Check for a local rep at curaflow.com and see if they can help. I have no idea on cost, but would hate to think what a complete repipe and the associated finishes would cost. Good luck
Is it possible to change out the copper to PEX?
Yair . . . powerjoke . Pictures indicate it could be a condition called "galvanic corrosion" caused when dissimilar metals are immersed in an electrolyte, be it water, damp soil or whatever . . . sounds a bit "out there" when applied to domestic plumbing though. Do a Google search. There is bound to be heaps about it on the net. It is common on boats and I have seen pipes look just like yours. The fix is usually to introduce a sacrificial anode into the system. Cheers.
PJ, Don't waste another second on it- replace it with Wirsbow (Upponor Co.) aqua pex before you have a leak that causes major damage. You most likely have a combination of issues- high wear in the lines due to the recirc pump, electrolysis traveling up and down the copper- this weakens and corrodes over time and / or poorly made copper piping from the start. Another thing to make sure of is that your water heater & recirc pump are grounded properly, if you have an electric water heater. The ground that you refer to on the L copper main water line will not stop an electrolysis issue- manganese anodes are installed / cad welded on steel pipelines to prevent this issue. Also pull the sacrifice anode rod out of the water heater it will prolly be eat completely up and flush tank and replace with new manganese anode rod before your water heater is leaking next.
I had several pinholes in my copper tubing (including one in the recirc system) in the first five years my home was built ('98). We have lots of iron in the well water and I had installed a water treatment device that I purchased from Grainger that injected air into the water stream to precipitate out the iron. I suspected that the air in the water might be be the problem, so removed the system and a few years later connected to city water when it became available and have had no problems since. Did a little reading at the time on microbiological induced corrosion (mic). Don't really know if this was the problem or if it had to do with galvanic corrosion as there was some sludge (presumably iron) laying in the bottom of the pipes, or something else entirely.
It looks just like galvanic corrosion but I can't imagine that Crestline started adding gold or platinum cause COPPER was too $$$ Usually that's what happens to the galvanized pipe connected to copper. Maybe silver solder, or a stainless pump? even so I'd guess there wouldn't have been a problem without a too big pump and/or something in the water.
replacing with pex is going to be an almost impossible option as it is all enclosed in sheetrock and the house is about 60' long, the dumbass plumber has many sink's running off of it as well which im sure is not a good deal either. the galvonic corrosion,...... if it's primarily related to rare metals, i have to ask......what is "no lead" solder made of ? is there any lab that you guys know of i can send a sample to ? the last sample i sent to crestline they kept (shoulda been a clue) lol I will definatly check into curaflow ! pj
Lead free solder is tin and antimony. Coming from a pipefitter background, I can honestly say that I have used more rolls of solder in my life than I have rolls of toilet paper, and have never seen it corrode anything like that. It might be worth your time to have someone do a water sample on the place. Commercial water treatment places can do this. Most reputable commercial and industrial HVAC contractors would have someone that they could recommend (the boilers and cooling towers that they install get kept up pretty regular), if the yellowpages dont have anyone listed. Just my opinion, but finding out what is in the water might be the best way to fight this battle, and peace of mind - if its doing that to the house pipes, imagine what it could be doing to yours. It sounds like you've done due diligence in trying to isolate the problem with the recirc pump. If it's on d/e unions, why not just break them and put a spool piece in where the pump is, and remove it completely? I might also check to see if the electric panel is grounded to the plumbing system, and if so, install a dedicated ground rod for it and reconnect it. Driving them in with a demo hammer can save hours of work. Last but not least, check to see that the valves in the system are brass with a chrome plated ball if they are ball valves, and if you have gate or globe valves, check that they don't have cast iron internals. That could be a hidden cause of dis-similar metals. Check for writing on the handles or a valve tag, and look it up on the internet. In trying to keep with the equipment nature of this web site, if all else fails, I would be glad to help remove the drywall with my mini.
From This Old House website: Q: It wasn't long after we moved into our newly constructed house that the copper water-supply pipes started to leak. This has happened four separate times since then. The leaks tend to occur in the pipes at or near soldered fittings. Neither my builder nor my plumber has been able to figure out what's causing the leaks, and none of my neighbors are having problems with their pipes. Our water comes from a municipal source, not a well. What's going on? — Dan Meyer , Maineville, Ohio A: Richard Trethewey replies: Generally, leaks in copper pipe can be traced back to a problem with the way the pipes were installed or to the water itself. For instance, flux—the acidic paste used in soldering—react with copper if the pipes stand idle for a long period after installation. This kind of trouble typically crops up near fittings and in cold-water pipes because hot water is better at washing flux away. Also, if a pipe wasn't reamed after being cut, the burr on the inside will cause turbulence—tiny swirls of water so vigorous that they actually wear away the metal. Too much velocity, either from undersized pipes or excessive water pressure, can have the same effect. Then there's the water itself. Anything abrasive, such as bits of rust or any other contaminant, will scour the inside of the pipe and exacerbate the effects of turbulence and velocity. So-called "aggressive," or acidic, water with a pH of 6.8 or less will eat through copper. Water loaded with dissolved minerals can generate copper-dissolving electrical charges. Since your neighbors aren't having the same problem, I'd rule out water chemistry, for now. The only way to determine exactly what's causing the leaks is a laboratory test. Start by contacting the Copper Development Association (copper.org). With your bad pipe in hand, their experts may be able to uncover the source of the failures or help you find a forensic engineering firm that specializes in corrosion analysis.
good reading, im going to send in the sample to somewhere just dont know where yet. i know i am not sending it to crestline again so they can keep it and tell me all is well lol nearest thing i can come up with is too much flow with the circ pump but it was shut off and ballvalved about 3-4yrs ago
One more thing you can look into. Google "Chinese drywall". Drywall was imported into the USA from China in the years after hurricane Katrina when US suppliers couldn't keep up to demand. Supposedly a lot of this drywall was so contaminated that it causes plumbing and wiring problems.
powerjoke, I don't know of Crestline pipe. Chinese copper pipe is a known problem. Looks just like your pictures. You have to re-pipe your house. Double check your home owners insurance coverage. Safeguard your valuables in the meantime. A pipe burst can do a lot of damage. We see then here, after freezes, all the time.
Have your water tested. We built our house in 1986. Over the years we had a bluish stain on our sink fixtures and drains. We also had the nasty corrosion in the copper pipes. I thought it was hard water and never really did anything about it. Finally had the water tested. It was very acidic. We added a lime stone filter and almost immediately the staining disappeared. We also had a metallic taste which also went away. Wish I would of figured this out years ago! By the way...I did not re-pipe my house.