Anyone have any info on the battery sizing typically?
A lot of info not included with this question. 12V, 24V? Size restrictions of the battery tray? Nevertheless, most any diesel can be properly operated with group 31 batteries now days. A single group 31 could crank a 3/53 with ease, or 2 in series if it's 24V. And if you need more juice and the battery tray allows you can stack them up in multiple batteries. Again, 12V/24V and battery tray restrictions, but group 31 will typically do the job.
I presume it has some kind of tray and hold-downs. They are usually sized to fit a certain size battery.
Looking more specifically for the Specs such as CCA. It's a 12V system. I have plenty of room for multiple batteries. My current battery has 1100 CCA and dies before able to cold start the engine even with quick start fluid. Does the 3-53 usually require multiple batteries? I've tested the alternator and it's changing the battery.
Either your battery is weak, or the engine/starter is weak. A 3-53 should start fine down to 40? with a regular 750 CCA fleet battery. That's the type of battery I like because they last much longer than a higher CCA battery, the "hot" high CCA battery is made like a hotrod: thinner, lighter, and disposable.
Yes, I never even look at the CCA of a battery, I just order by the BCI size which is some arbitrary number which corresponds to some dimensions. All batteries of a certain size have similar ratings, that is why I was asking about the battery tray, because the manufacturer (generally) had it figured out.
ok, thank you both. What is the BCI typically for a 3-53?
The 3 53 was put into hundreds of different kinds of equipment, probably dozens of different battery sizes were original. You want the biggest common battery size available that fits. Personally, I think the high CCA ratings over 800 are a waste of money, they don't last. And you don't need that power anyway, what you need is a battery to still put out 500 CCA four years down the road.
Thank you for the lesson.
Like mentioned above I quit looking at CCA ratings some years ago and now look at the weight of the battery itself. Batteries usually fail because vibration causes lead to fall off the plates and fill the void below them. As the lead comes off the plates it reduces the amount of current that can be applied under load and the voltage falls below what is required to drive the starter efficiently. Enough lead falls in there to come up and touch two different sets of plates and then shorts out the cell. So the heavier the battery the more lead there is on the plates which in theory should mean the battery lasts longer. The age of the engine isn't mentioned. Maybe compression is down because of worn rings and liners or maybe the valves aren't seating fully. Because of the comment of using go juice I would have to wonder if the cold start issue might be more complicated than just the battery.
Another question about the history of the engine, has it been fed a diet of 15W/40 motor oil? Those engine do not like that oil.
Usually in the same battery group a lower CCA battery is heavier duty and will last longer, often heavier too. I had a reconditioned 8D battery that cost me $80 last 10 years in my Cat. I think it was an 1100 CCA but some 8D's are 1400 CCA. The reconditioned group 31 in my tractor from the same place still works great after about 13 years. I think it cost $40. The guy at the battery reconditioning shop said a lot of people make the mistake of looking for the highest CCA rating. Lower CCA means heavier plates spaced further apart and less affected by vibration and sulfation.
I would check and see what kind of amps the starter is drawing. A 3-53 should spin like a top with straight 30 weight oil down to +10 F with a 27 series battery in it. A 31 series battery should do even better. If in good shape it should start at 35F with no "go juice" with only a few seconds of cranking. EDIT: Another think to check is to insure the battery cables are big enough and are in good shape with good ends. I use all T posts where possible. I have seen more than a few instances on machines where the battery cables have been changed to a cheap skinny cable and are not sized correctly to carry the needed battery current.
I don't disagree with anything you just said old iron, spot on.
Well I replaced the 1120 CCA battery for a large sized Commercial Excide 820 CCA. The battery is substantially larger in size and completely fills the huge battery compartment but wont start the engine. The battery cables seem adequately sized, not sure the weight of the oil in the engine though. How can I tell if the starter is done?
How long is it cranking? I'd check the cranking voltage of the battery next, then the voltage drop of the cables and then the cranking voltage that the starter sees. If you can come up with an ampmeter, that's a good check too.
Won't start the engine as in how? Is there something wrong with the engine maybe? How many RPM cranking? Otherwise I agree with the above, starter voltage at the motor, amps running, are things you need to know.
Seems like the Starter never gets enough RPMs to turn the engine over fast enough, then the battery dies. How can I measure the "Cranking Voltage"? The motor ran fine just a couple of weeks ago so I'm confident there's not problem there.
Put an aligator clip on the big terminal on the starter body, and one on the body of the starter itself. That tells you what the starter motor itself is getting while it's cranking. The voltage can drop in the cables, ends, between frame and block, solenoid, etc. The test leads will tell you where. If the voltage is close at the starter to what it is at the battery, both while cranking, then you can pretty much assume the starter is bad, because it's done the same thing with a new battery, and the engine WAS running fine. Have you turned the engine over a couple revolutions by hand just to be sure? Also, check the intake and exhaust are clear, alternator and fan turn.
ok, I'll try tomorrow.
Just thinking out loud. The old H Farmall's had the ground cable on the starter body. About every year or two we would pull the starter, loosen the 2 thru bolts that held the starter pieces together, twist the starter ends back and forth to clean them up and tighten the thru bolts again. The starters would lose the ground continuity at the joints and would get weak and not crank well. Long shot but it does happen. Still sounds to me like a bad starter.
Agree old iron, sounds like a starter problem to me. The 820CCA battery you fitted, what is that, maybe a 4DLT battery? If yes, that should be plenty to whiz a starter on a 3-53. Additionally, a 3-53, most likely an old school Delco starter on that engine. One thing that is not unusual on those starters is if they have been exposed to lengthy bouts with poor batteries, dead cell batteries, or just drained batteries trying to work that starter, weak current input to those starters will put a hurt on the contact plate inside the starter solenoid, so much so that even though you hear it click and engage to send current to the starter motor, mmmm, nope, not happening.
So what I found is the following. 1) Checked the voltage on the Battery posts and found 12.5 volts 2) Checked the voltage from the battery lead on the starter solenoid and the starter case and found 12.5 volts 3) Disconnected the solenoid-to-Starter connection and checked the voltage on the solenoid after turning the ignition key and found 10.5 volts (Why wouldn't it be 12.5 volts?) 4) Checked the voltage on the Starter terminal while turning the ignition key and found only 6 volts. Does this point to a bad starter?
If I understand your writing, there is a lot of voltage drop through the solenoid. Correct?
Here is what I found 1) Checked the voltage at the battery posts and found 12.5 volts. 2) Checked the voltage at the Battery post on the Solenoid and the starter case and found 12.5 volts. 3) Disconnected the connection at the solenoid output and the starter post and found 10.5 volts when turning the ignition key (Why not 12.5 volts?) 4) Checked the voltage at the starter post and starter case and found 6 volts on the first two attampts and less than one volt after than while turning the key. Does this sound like a bad starter?
yes, 2 volts drop without the load of the starter.
Check all the cable lengths for any expanded or swollen regions then as a next step take the solenoid off the starter and clean it internally or see if there is a starter reman shop close by where you can get a contact plate and contact bolts.
I guess I don't like to make things this complicated. I will automatically remove and check the ground cable from the battery and the starter and clean the connections and loose for the green powdery stuff that always seems to collect on copper cables. If any I'll clean as possible or replace the cable. Then I check the battery voltage at the posts while turning the engine over. It should not under any circumstances go below nine volts. If it does it can be a bad battery or a short circuit in the starter. I'll charge up the battery and then find a load tester somewhere. Usually any auto parts store will be able to do that. Once I know it is good I'll recheck load voltages again. If it is above ten volts I'll next check at the positive battery cable end and look for less than was at the terminal while turning the engine over. If so it needs to be fixed. If it is good there I'll next check at the positive cable end where it connects to the starter solenoid. If it is the same as the post end terminal I'll check at the output terminal of the solenoid. If that is good I'll check the input lug to the starter. If all those check good, I'll pull the starter and tear it down if I have time or more commonly I don't have the time and will obtain an exchange starter. If none of that works I'll blame either the manufacturer of the machine for such a poor design or the operator for letting things go so far that we now have this problem. Since these issues are never worth the powder it takes to blow up the machine I'll suggest a match to one of the many fuel leaks that always seem to be the cause of a burned machine. Usually that comment provokes a blank stare and a comment that if I can't fix it I won't get paid.
3) the solenoid itself is a coil that takes some power. If you're getting 10 V just from the solenoid draw then you have some serious voltage drop, as confirmed by 4). Now you have to find out if it's the positive, or negative cables or which connection. The voltage drop test will find it. Or clean everything and feel for soft spots.
Pull the starter and have it checked at a parts store under load. 99% chance that its your issue. If the cables are sized properly and clean.
I think it may be the solenoid if I am reading the writing correctly. But it is hard to be sure without being there. I can agree with the above, I thought I had bad cables/batteries on my 7.3 Powerstroke for several years. It was turning slower and slower. I replaced a couple batteries, and went through all the trouble to replace the soft/swollen positive cable. No improvement. Then one day it just refused to start at the gas station. Opened the hood and smelled burnt electric motor. Replaced and after that, all has been wonderful. I suffered a long time with that dying motor and diagnosing it wrong. And threw too much money at it. Good thing it has a stick shift or I would have paid for a tow truck also, or changed it in a parking lot.
I measured the voltage from the battery posts, 12.5 volts and while cranking it went to 8 volts. I took the battery to get a load test done and it checked out fine producing 826 CCA. I took the solenoid off the engine and will look at it tomorrow.
So while producing 826 CCA on the load tester did the voltage drop below 9 volts. If it did not go below the 9 volts on the test I would have suggested to remove the entire starter as it is likely that it was drawing more amperage than the battery could supply. That is a sign that some current is going around the field or armature coils instead of through them to produce rotating force.
Can't confirm that the Load Test voltage went below the 9 volts. I imagine that would be in the threshold software but I did see the voltage drop below 8 volts when I tested it as per above. So you think it's the starter?
Amp clamp on the starter wire would probably tell the tale. Although 12.5 volts is not a very well charged battery either.
2.2v per cell is the standard for a charged batt, 13.2 down to 12.8 acceptable for a decent full battery charger charge. Still drop was excessive.
I removed both the battery and solenoid from the hoe and put the battery on a slow charge and opened up the solenoid, there was a slow drip fuel leak from the fuel pump onto the solenoid that seems to get into the case. I cleaned it up as well as the contact disk & posts, which were heavily charred, I guess from the over-amped battery I previously had in there. I put everything back together and reinstalled on the hoe and in trying to start it, it fired right up. The starter sounded pretty strong. I fixed the fuel leak as well so hopefully it will last me a while. Thank everyone for your help in troubleshooting this.
The charred contact plate inside the solenoid was most likely damaged from previous episodes of weak battery cranking. In electricity, the lower the voltage present is the more amps are required to produce work/load. In other words, a hot, good load capacity 12V battery, a starter will pull X amount of amps to perform the work/load. If the voltage drops to 8 volts from a weak battery, the starter will require considerably more than X amps to perform that work. Result, damaged contact plate from excessive amps.
Those plates alway get the char and burn marks on them. It used to be that you could just turn them around and use the back side. Ones I've looked at when I last turned a wrench were made so that couldn't be done anymore. Good to hear it works.
Sounds like fixing the fuel leak also helped it to start quicker. Probably was losing post fuel pump pressure before therefore needing more cranking time.
Just to answer your original question. I have a Dynahoe 190 with the 3-53 Detroit. Mine has a dual battery setup. Even with the dual batteries, when its cold it cranks pretty slow and needs a shot of ether.
Curious what temperature you consider cold? Some on the board here consider +35 to +40 F cold while others consider below 0 F as cold.
I just purchased the machine this summer so the coldest I have started it so far is -15 C (5 F). It does get down to -40 C here, but I don't plan on running it below much below -15