Whats everyones opinion as to the best size and make excavator to load 40 ton ADT's
My opinion is an 800 to 850 class machine with a 7 to 8 cy bucket. 3 pass loads in under a minute and a half in most conditions. Most people can't pull an 80 ton machine out for a small job, and Missouri transport rules may rule out that size machine based on the cost to mob in and out with it. I always go with the biggest I can come up with though.
We use Hitachi/Deere 700-850 hoes with 4.5-8yd buckets and also a couple komatsu 1250, Hitachi 1100 hicab and 1200 loading our wiggle wagons and 777's. I like the 850's and 800's but I have never ran the komatsu 750/800 or the cat 375/385 but have heard they are both nice hoes. The 80 ton class is nice because you can still stick your toes in the mud a bit ( with wide tracks 36''), have a good cycle time and can load a 40 toner in 5-7 passes, 30 ton about 4-6 depending how much they are overloaded. We also load with 450's with 4yd cleanup buckets. I guess I am not too much help but we usually use the biggest hoe we can that will stay afloat in the mud.
Oop's never saw Jerry's post
HaHa Thats OK, seems like we think a lot alike then. I currently have 2 Cat 375's, one with a 4 pass bucket, and one with a 3 pass bucket for loading 40 ton trucks. The 3 pass bucket is a bit much unless you have a really good operator. It is 92" wide, and rates at about 9 1/2 CY. You can't put the stick much past perpendicular with the boom with a full load, but it will load 40 to 50 loads more in a day than the other bucket.
Good info about what I expected, the job we have to is about 450,000 cy Lean to fat clay with an avg. haul of 4,000' crossing traffic. The estimators bid this a bit aggressive (780 cy per hour). Since we plan to rent an Excavator for this project I want to try and get them talked into a no more than 4 pass machine
780 cy/hr?! Ooof! Thats a bucket every 10 seconds with mine! I better get a set of asbestos gloves for that job, i can already smell the controls smokin'
go for broke If you can get an 85-ton machine, definitely go for it. When we still had our 385bLME, it could avg. 1200 yards an hour on some jobs, loading 4 Cat 740's with an 8 yd. bucket. A 65 ton mass ex. could probably do what you needed too for a lower cost. Either way I would recommend getting a hoe with the shortest stick and biggest bucket you can. A pipe hoe might be able to handle a simiilar capacity bucket as a mass ex., but it will be slower and less stable. Course if money isn't an issue... get a 120-ton machine and load the trucks in two passes, lol. That's my two cents anyway:beatsme
Yep 780 per hour, I don't think it's going to happen, biggest problem is they figured the trucks at a 30 cy payload ointhead and my experience is around 25 cy inbank for a 40 ton ADT...oh well I can already hear the bit#$in :Banghead
Course if money isn't an issue... get a 120-ton machine and load the trucks in two passes, lol. Whoa 120 ton now I could just see the response I would get from the boss after that thing got STUCK --> picture me as the monitor :bash
Yeah a 120 ton machine is gonna be overkill and if the underfoot conditions are soft you wouldn't want to do anything bigger than a 385 sized machine with 36" pads. Clay tends to heap really well, so even with an 8 yd. bucket you could probably get a big load on those trucks. Just cause the truck can hold almost 30 BANK yards, I would have to agree, you're not gonna get more than 25 LOOSE cubic yards in those trucks. Another option, that I just thought about. If you have the room in the cut, you could rent two or three 45-ton machines. How many trucks are you going to have?
Another option, that I just thought about. If you have the room in the cut, you could rent two or three 45-ton machines. How many trucks are you going to have?[/QUOTE] 5 trucks at 5.2 loads per hour is how it was bid, I’m hoping to avg. 6 but it's a stretch :Banghead I can only use one Hoe because we are using a GPS Dozer to push up grade.
5 trucks at 5.2 loads per hour is how it was bid, I’m hoping to avg. 6 but it's a stretch :Banghead I can only use one Hoe because we are using a GPS Dozer to push up grade.[/QUOTE] Just because you are using one GPS dozer to push grade does not limit you to one hoe. Keep them close enough and one dozer can easily go back and forth to keep the grade pushed up. I do it a lot. JimBruce I think you got the loose and bank yards mixed up, but you are right on. Now in the clay you might get 25 cy per load, but in my experience 22 would be more likely. That works out to 35 loads per hour, so I would put 6 trucks on it, and one 80 ton or 2 45 ton excavators. That should get you in the 800 yard per hr range.
That works out to 35 loads per hour, so I would put 6 trucks on it, and one 80 ton or 2 45 ton excavators. That should get you in the 800 yard per hr range.[/QUOTE]e likely. The problem with two excavators and an additional truck is cost will increase, however I do agree 6 trucks will be needed and a 70 or 80 ton excavator. Also our GPS dozer is an 850J JD, it's function is to keep cut on grade more than pushing up.
opps, I might have... Bank cubic yards: virgin ground that has to be moved Loose cubic yards: disturbed ground in front of a blade or in a bucket/truck Is that right or did I get some other part of that equation wrong?:drinkup two 45 ton hoes shouldn't cost a lot more than one 85 ton machine, and so long as you get more than 800 yards moved an hour the money made should more than cover the additional costs. Course I guess it also depends on how your company charges equipment, etc to a job. I agree that the 850j should be able to keep up with two hoes if it's just holding grade, I would hope that the dozer man doesn't need to baby sit the hoe operator the WHOLE time with grade:beatsme
Better be running at least a 385C, I can push 40 loads an hour if I'm whipping out trucks. No screw ups, no playing around with anything. As long as you can keep the hoe up on a bench with everything prepped then you should be ok, but that bid is really pushing the limits of good operator, well setup job. To be honest I think you're going to need more trucks than that however, given the haul distance. I had a similar job and we had 8 trucks (40 ton) coming to me, and I still had time between trucks to clean up a little. I was hitting 380-400 trucks in 9 hours loading time.
Hi gbdigger, How deep is your average cut and good luck.
Do you always end-load or side-load artics with 85t excavators, or are you able to do both equally well? The bucket dimensions start to approach the body dimensions on an artic.
Hey Dave, Avg. cut is 6 to 7 feet, also I was informed today that the excavator will be a Terex 480 with a 6 yd. bucket, the area of excavation will be graded into a wetland of various depth, we drilled the site when we bid it and it's dry down to 15'. We are a Sub on this job for Sherwood, thay are hauling out of a borrow pit across the highway against the same river with 631's and having no trouble at all, PM told me today that they expect to be able to excavate to 15' with the 631's Somebody ask about end loading and side loading, an operator better be able to load at about a 20 to 30 deg. angle and trucks should never have to use reverse, and my trucks are going to have to run like hell :Banghead BTW anybody have any experience with a Terex Hoe
Except for rare occasions in tight access we always side load. Especially with the 3 pass bucket. End loading leaves a pile on each side of the truck no matter what. We also get close to 90* with it, as much angle of the bucket and the bed, and you end up with 2 corners light loaded, and 2 piles at opposite corners. In my book a full bed and less spillage to clean up counts more than saving 5 seconds a load in swing time going the extra bit of a turn. With a smaller bucket and more passes per load, less angle really makes a difference, but then a smaller bucket does not have the spillage issue, or the short loads on the corner, as you just put the material where you need to to get it full. Bench height depends on the material, but 10 ft or so is the norm. For a 15ft cut, I would do it in 2 cuts, unless the material is super stable.
I don't think a 6 yard will cut it, you're looking at 4+ passes per truck, I'm thinking averaging 5 passes as that bucket will be fairly large for a 480. A Terex 480 is around the same size as a 345, and you're expecting to get 40+ loads an hour? That's doing good for a 385 with a 3 pass 8yd bucket. I don't know, I'm really thinking you're going to eat all your profit in production penalties if that's the numbers they are asking for.
I will have to agree with Vantage we are currently running 4 40ton trucks with 2 more on the way with a haul distance similiar to yours and having to climb a 30' tall plus stock pile along with having to share a one lane bridge with Vecellio & Grogan and they have about 12 cat 740's on there spread currently loading them with a 5110 10yd and a 385 8yd in three passes im using a fiat fe40m with a 4.25 yd 7-8 passes 1/4 swing and can load around 1.5 minutes V & G and I count our trucks at no more than 20 bank yds my trucks average 60 loads plus or minus each day 10 hrs and i have to turn in the truck loads at the end of each shift, the 20yds are what we use for a amount for billing purposes in the end the stock pile will be surveyed you dont want to have to give back at the end of the job. We start loading at 7:00 and quit loading at 5:30 and a night crew takes over at 6:30 to 4:30 we do have some interference the fuel and lube time there is a lot of machine to fuel and lube when the other truck show up i will be loading them with a 140,000 LB FIAT-ALLIS 6.5yd made by O & K.
Just looked up the 480 with the short stick 9'6 the biggest bucket showed 83" width with side cutters and 80 with out with a rating of 3.73 cubic yards machine weight is around 104,000lbs nice looking outfit but dont know about a 6yd hope you have a football helmet with a face mask just kidding
you can't forget to keep that haul road up to par too...especially if the clay swells alot with water and the trucks start to spin...then your productivy goes way down *cough*...but that doesn't happen in an estimators world...*cough* because its always 72 degrees and sunny
Amen to the estimators (actually I was an estimator PM for last employer & use to estimate for this company prior to that) As for the haul road you are very correct it will make you or break you, I'm getting a blade which I make sure never stops, can't stand guys that think it's smooth enough and they think they can stop for awhile. I looked up that 480 also and noticed the weight and bucket size, I tried to get them to send the 700 Volvo but it's busy loading rock on another project, owner claims that this 480 will out load the 700 but I can't imagine :beatsme Now where did I put that football helmet
:umno
No way a 45 to 50 ton machine will outload a 700 Volvo. I had one of the first ones on the West coast for over 1,000 hrs, and it would load on par with an 800 Hitachi and a 750 Komatsu. We were loading 340 to 350 loads per 8 hr shift in shot rock with it. About 380 to 400 in better conditions.
im using a komatsu pc1250 in clay oxide and with lots of quartz in it and am able to free dig 90% and some ares of rock that need blasting with a 5 truck haul in 740's on a 1:5 ramp grade in a 150m deep gold pit curretly minig at 80m and have plenty of time to doo batters and clean up between trucks its 3 pass max s we are getting good heping with the 7.6 m3 bucket on a 2.5 m bench we are avraging arround 350-400 loads in 11 hr shift its a preaty crusy number co pred to the last job
New Info :update Okay I have new info, the Terex Excavator is on site it is a 470 not 480 we are putting it together tommorow, The counter weight has an added 7,000 lb. (total 27,000 lb counterweight) and the bucket is 5.8 cy The trucks are JD 400D's with tailgates.
And no pictures of the assembly tut tut I sincerely hope you will make amends for this error.
You might as well give them your shirt now and save some time later
Boy I'd really like to see where they put the extra 7000 lb ( ! ). Some pictures would be great to see.
I was going to bring my canera today but left it on the table at home :cussing...sorry guys I'll try to post pics next week As for the added weight it's hard to tell since I've never seen a standard counter weight for this machine...I can tell you that the mechanic came down today and we put it together plus installed a new turbo. Had a crane service do the lift and the operator told me the counter weight was 25,500 lbs
Here is a link to the Terex 480 specs. http://www.terex.com/attachment.php?action=LAUNCH&nav=prod&id=f8e57128d53cc162216007016732d763 No weight listed for the counterweight. I don't know what the standard is, but I have caught salesmen trying to tell me that a machine had more, and it never did. Hope to see pictures and feedback once it starts running.
Truck/loading tool pass match In all the years i have been around this stuff i have worked out a very simple way to get a truck/digger pass match that falls into a good economic and profitable system for a contractor, all as i do is this, whatever tonnage trucks you have you will need an excavator with an operating weight double what the truck can carry ie 40 ton truck = 80 ton digger, 100 ton truck = 200 ton digger, 240 ton truck = 480 ton digger and so on and so on. If you are in fairly consistent density material that is not ridiculously heavy this combo will be a winner for you straight off the bat. You can stray a little off this but if you do you would want to have used a program to calc the costs like say Cats FPC software. This software has proven to be within 5% of actuals time and time again on jobsites the world over. Remember trucks dont make money standing still and that is why a scraper is the best tool for moving dirt at the lowest cost when in its economical haul zone.
I agree with your scraper comment however in this situation I believe trucks are better due to two reasons, one being the lack of good scraper hands making it difficult to maintain proper grade requiring a full time grade checker to work the cut, I know most will say since we are using a GPS dozer in the cut it shouldn't be a problem but without a grade checker you run the risk of one scraper always hauling back to the GPS dozer to backfill over cut grade, two the haul distance is over 3,000' and uphill. Keep in mind the cut is a wetlands and grade surfaces are somewhat erratic On another note the mechanic told me yesterday that the Terex 470 can actually produce very close to our Volvo 700 and over a period of time maybe out produce it since the 700 tends to have numerous electrical problems limiting it's availability. The first 700 we received had so many problems it was replaced with the 700 we have now and the other was sent back to the factory. The 470 has 2200 hours on it and according to the mechanic has be very reliable.
Saying that it will move more dirt because your larger machine breaks down all the time DOESN'T mean it will meet your performance standards laid out in your contract. Just that your other machine sucks. My 850D Deere moved 5428.5 yd3 today (10 hours) which is only 542.85 yd3 an hour. And that has a 8 yd3 bucket on it. Personally I think that guy is a little slow an should have been pushing 6600 yd3 (660 yd3/h) but he's steady and does the job right. My point here is that an 850 is twice as big and has a bucket 2 yd3 bigger than what you are attempting to move, and it's still falling short of your quota even if my guy was loading at the speed I wanted. The best I've ever done in the seat with a 385C L (8 yd3 96" bucket) is 880 yd3/h and I was running that thing flat out just whipping dirt into those trucks. Poor things never sat for more than 45 seconds before I was honking again.
I'm not saying I can meet the production it will be very tough, but we will have to try our very best :Banghead, I'm just saying that I think I will be better off with the Terex as configured than the Volvo or at least no worse. If it don't quit raining we're never going to get started
Sounds like you are in a tough position with a job bid for production you can't get with the equipment available to you. Looks like you will just have to give it all you can, and let the chips fall where they fall. You can wish all day long you had a bigger machine, or more machines, but in the end, you can only use what you have. Good luck, and let us know how it works out.
You can't get blood from a stone and if you don't have the gear you won't move the muck.
You are very correct, I'm a true believer in getting by with what you have to do with. To many superintendents cry and whine these days having to have this and having to have that. My father always taught me that if you are working a man short you are making money & if your working a man long your loosing your butt.
The mechanic said... is he just going by what books say, or experience? There's one big variable involved, called the operator. You get used to how a machine responds, and how it can perform when pushed hard, what you can and can't do with it. Get into a foreign machine and things tend to slow down a little, until you can get the feel for it. I've not ran a Terex, but have a Volvo, Komatsu, Deere, and Cat. So far I think that the Volvo does respond better, the hydraulics seem to be more fluid and smoother than the others. I agree about superintendents crying... however some supers don't ask, and expect you to load at the same volume using a skidloader..
On our job one day last last week we had a total of 28,900 yards moved that was first shift using 5110 and a 385 along with me stripping topsoil with my 600 fiat-allis and using a total of 15 40 ton trucks at 20 yds per load about 1445 loads over 1/2 mile one way to the stock piles night crew was included using the 385 and 6 trucks im going to have to get picture for you.
Nice one
Pic's Here are pic's of the 470 Excavator, D8-N and a 400D Truck, The Prime's D9-R and 631 in background
More pic's. I would have gotten more but it statred raining
Nice pics, look forward to seeing it in action. Never heard much of Terex excavators, be interested to see how it does. It certainly has a big bucket at any rate.
You & me both, if it doesn’t quit raining we'll never get started. In Kansas you can't move oversize loads when the pavement is wet. Lowboy got caught in a breif rain hauling the D8 down and got a ticket :Banghead
Why am i not surprised... Anyway i hope you can get started soon. Throw some more equipment pics up when you get a chance, especaily if they have murphy stickers on them.
6" of :cussing Rain is just to :cussing much! :Banghead
Looks like you need to build an ark. I bet the place you are supposed to dig is under the nice lake.
Gee what part of Ireland are you in cause no one else can get that much rain.
:Banghead:Banghead
When my boss told me he was sending down the service truck this morning I told him to cancel it and send a boat instead :Banghead And here is the cut area which is going to be a wetlands :dizzy The nice lake is the fill area
I'm looking out the door at nearly the same thing.
Hey Jerry if you would, put a rope around them :cussing rain clouds and keep em out there for awhile....thanks
You need me to have the office send you a boat too Stock
I would love to keep some of that rain out here. We have been in a drought, and all the reservoirs are nearly dry. I've been doing a rain dance, but it looks like it all went to the wrong place. Feel free to send the clouds back this way.
I'll see what I can do about getting them clouds turned around, but right now after reading the NWS forcast for river crest I got to get out there and move the equipment to higher ground :Banghead
Okay equipment is now on higher ground (all of ours anyway) time to :drinkup
Sounds like our job a couple weeks ago, we got 7" of rain in like 3 hours time early Friday morning.... didn't start moving dirt again until the following Tuesday. Hope you get some dry weather soon man.:drinkup
:update here is what too much rain does to the river Pic 2,3,& 4 is the cut area
More water! Notice 631 has water up to belly pan they couldn't move it since it is broke down
And a few more, maybe we need a cutterhead dredge instead :Banghead
Looks like it is time to go on vacation and hope it gets dry sometime before you get back.
Well I've got a Travel Trailer coming down today then I'm going back to the office to help estimate work, so kinda like a vacation with work
Looks like the good 'ol Neosho. It does tend to get rather angry...
man gbdigger... you must be part irish... as teh old saying goes "if it wasn't for bad luck, I'd have no luck at all". In a humor way it kinda looks like the hoe and dozer are afraid of water and trying to get as far away from it as they can. LOL.
gbdigger, being up the river from you I know the weather didn't do you any favors last winter and spring. How about an update?
Geez something must be wrong Burnout hasn't posted anything yet.
Too busy operating, you should try it sometime.
I was.
Project in Coffeyville was completed on August 20th this year. We got flooded out four times during the project with the last time being the first week of July this year. Took us two weeks to dry out in 100 degree heat, lost 3 1/2 weeks in July...just unheard of. All in all it turned out pretty good considering weather and rash of equipment problems encountered.
Cat 375-385, Komatsu PC650, Demag 285.