If you had a machine to buy just to do septic work, what would it be? mini ex, full size ex, backhoe, crawler loader... It seems that around here most people are using mini ex but it can be long because of the size of some system... Alexis
If i was going to gear up to do this kind of work, I wouldn't go with anything smaller then a 320 size machine. A 315 will pick a 1000 gallon seamless, minus the lid, but they don't like it. If you can guarantee that you'll never have to use the machine to set the the tank then anything that will dig down to about 10 feet would be enough.
If were keeping it to one machine a Cat 314 with the blade to grade for fill systems and also the 314 be can be moved on a tag a long. Add a swinger bucket for clean up and finish work.
Bigger is ALMOST always better I have used many sizes of excavator for septic, I agree with what 95zIV said about a 320 size cat, up in Maine we do a lot of stone beds, I know there is a million ways to do it but I like the 320 size because you can comfortably reach across a typical 25' wide bed. I used to run a Volvo EC240BLC for my old boss, if you have a low bed, thats the cat's ass, it is a little wider then the EC210 machines but you can set a 1000 gallon tank with no sweat any place you want. All our machines had Wimmer digging bucets and tilting clean up buckets, mine had a 30" "pipe" bucket, 6' clean up, and a 5' "bailing bucket, around 3 yard. The reason i give the larger machine a node is that you can flat bottom the with of a bed vs having to stretch out and only being able to use the cutting edge on a 320 size. A big machine makes up for the width and weight by spending more time digging and less time moving around to reach everything, at least in my experence. Whatever size you get, get a clean up bucket, I got real good with a regular bucket the first few years I was in a hoe but when I got the clean up bucket it's just faster and better, for you and the help.
hi, quite a few of our customers have gone with Kobelco's ED150 Bladerunner. it is a most versatile machine, excavator and dozer in one... they are now able to bring one machine in where they use to have to float in two. http://www.kobelcoamerica.com/products/bladerunner/Pages/ED150.aspx definitely something to consider cheers!
Round here 120-160 size seems to be the majority of what septic contractors use. Alot of tight yards were 320 size is getting to big, so think of the space you'd have on your job as well. CTL and a mini exc. are a much better set up for septic work than a backhoe. More manueverable, can cross fields unlike a hoe, attachments such a harley rake. CTL is much better at pushin sewer gravel and spreading loam then a backhoe as well.
sorry guys we have been putting them in since the 60's. a back hoe is the way to go. they are just faster if you are putting in line type systems. we have a 312 and a 420e. i know you can move more dirt with a bigger machine but with an excavator you have to keep building a pad to sit on and this takes alot more time than just straighting up with the out riggers. now on really steep stuff we bring out the 312 but just cause it is beat to hell and if we turn it over agian it won't hurt it to bad. and out 420e is like new.
@ js580sl Up in Maine the inspectors are real tough. They won't pass you to move forward with your bed if you grade it up with a dozer after you dig it out, they have to see that you scarified it with your teeth. They will fail you if you track any clay or loam onto the sand if you doing one that needs screened cource sand for fill under the stone. Same deal with the stone, we almost always dig all the materials out of the dump trucks to avoid this. When I started in the biz I worked for my uncle, we had a PC150 komatsu and it worked very well, but when I started working for a larger company I started running the 200 size machines with the clean up buckets and found it made for a lot less hand work. thanks for the post, could you explain the Mass rules a little, we have to have an inspection when we stake out the bed, after we dig out and scarifey, and again before we put the fabric over the stone and finish up.
X2--I've never even seen by me in 37 years anyone ever using an excavator.My 410G for me is the perfect rig for all the different types of systems I install.
This is interesting, in Fl. the TLB has been the standard for years but is being replaced by the Compact Excavators and skid steer. Moved on a goose-neck.
A mid size excavator 17000 pound class and a CTL is what we have found to be the best for all septic installations. We have a 310E Deere that was used until we found out the Komatsu 75UU was much better paired with the CTL.
IMHO, We usually use a Cat 315 size excavator. We have the reach and the 360 swing ability which is usually very handy. It has the ability to efficiently dig out most beds and tanks. It is also a little more portable that the 20+ ton machines. VC
CAT 307C SB & CTL. I used to do septics with my TLB, but after having this hoe I don't ever want to go back- no more limitations on where I can pile the dirt. Most of the spots that I work in wouldn't allow for a 320 size machine. Another big plus- I've got the dozer blade on front so I can still level myself on a slope without building a pad first. When I first got my machine, I thought I wouldn't use the swing-boom, now I can't believe how much I use it! Everyone has their own way of doing things, may just take some trial and error to see what you like.
Around here it depends on the system. First of all, the tank always comes on a boom truck so there is no need to have a machine large enough to pick the tank. A simple what we call "conventional system" where everything goes in drainage trenches can be done with a tractor backhoe. A "mound system" consisting of sand on top of chisel plowed sod with clear stone on top of the sand, than fabric cover by clay must be done with a track hoe and small dozer as to rubber tire machines are allowed on the mound. A dozer is required for covering and finishing. I don't do many septics but use my Cat D3 and Cat 215D LC when doing them.
That was the thing I forgot to mention- we don't ever set a tank here either unless it's plastic.
to place the stone and cover I use a 277B cat tracked skidsteer. One of the most useful machines that I own.
Doing primarily residential construction in a rural area offers me a lot of septic work. I have done systems with my TLB, my mini, and my excavator. As others have said the ability to lift a tank is not often important. Most of the time the truck sets the tank. It has come into play before and my 315 struggles to lift a 1,000 gallon concrete tank. Anything larger and it will have to be set 1/2 at a time (we have tub style tanks here). The backhoe and mini simply need not apply here for that duty. I like the mini for hillside trenches between the trees. It's draw back is that it is at a disadvantage digging the tank hole. Backfilling as well because I like to compact the fill back around the tank. The backhoe works well enough to dig and backfill the tank (have compaction wheel for it so it really does well compacting aroung the tank in lifts). For me the 315 is the best machine for the majority of systems that I do. By far.
In mass, in the towns I work in anyway- you get an inspection when you finish excavating the leaching area, one upon completion. An engineer has to shoot in the final grades and locations before you backfill. We have the same strict standards for stone as well as sand. One town will actually make you turn in your slips for gravel to prove it came from the same pit your sieve analysis came from. Inspections vary from town to town but some of the inspectors want 'eyes on' the stone under your septic tank, want to put a level on each length of pipe in the field, want a 6" reinforced concrete pad under your H20 Dbox. Some towns want to do a white bucket test on your stone. Each inspector is different. Some insist on speed levelers and some forbid them. Ive installed systems in Maine, and found for the most part the regs are very similar....though I found using straw hay in lieu of peastone or fabric a little odd. Ive also installed a system in Tennessee, and I understand why you prefer the backhoe to an excavator, as you install 150' of trench with a continuous plastic corrugated pipe, through the woods, over hill and dale. I think for the most part, as Jim said a 20 ton excavator that you can deliver and recover yourself with a dump truck and tag trailer is a good way to go. I have 2 20 ton machines with 5 foot clean up/ grading buckets that work very well. Both can lift a 1000 g tank, and a 1500 in sections when necessary. YMMV
For strictly septic work, TLB is the way to go, hands down. I'm running a 580 case, and a 130 hyundai. With both machines at my disposal the TLB puts in 90 percent of my systems. I break out the excavator on extremely steep ground. Otherwise the TLB is simply far faster and more versatile.
I see that some of you like the plastic tanks, personally I do not like them. you should fill them with water before back filling. I will use one when it is to tough to get a truck in to set a concrete. My brother in law even sells the plastic ones.
TLB vs Mini For typical trenches we use the jd310 TLB. It has an extendahoe to dig the trenches quick and a 1.25 cy bucket for the gravel. Lately we tried our mini JD 35D and a compact track loader in a head to head competition. They were very close. Problem is that I have to bring two machines instead of one. Be careful not to compact the soil. Mini and CTL are better in tight areas. Plastic tank note: use fralo or synder tanks; they are strong and no need to fill with water just compact under the ribs as tou backfill.
+1 on the Fralo. Big fan- though the ones Ive used dont meet the minimum depth for invert to bottom, and needed a special nod from the health dept.
alexis, I think it depends the type of systems you do. I agree with 67kato, a mini such as 35D is very efficient but it largely depends on if you do new work or replacements. I did a replacement a couple of weeks ago that my KOM 200 would have been overkill and required alot more restoration than a smaller machine, over the years I have done replacements where the 200 simply would not fit, bigger is not necessarily better. On new work the 200 is there digging the foundation hole and there is always enough room to work. As DGODGR stated, the precast truck sets the tank(s) so I don't need to be concerned with lift capacity. I have heard some jurisdictions do not allow the use of a wheeled or track machine over the leaching area so that kinda forces you to an excavator.
i just put in 2 1000gs tanks today and my 315 wouldnt lift em with the lids my 320dl lifted em no prob
if your 315 wouldnt lift a 1000g tank, you should get it checked out. My 315B lifts them no prob.
I have an '03 315CL. It will struggle to lift the 1,000 gallon tank, which weighs about 10,000# (the max lift available, above ground line, per the machines literature). My machine is equipped with the long under carriage (hence the "L"), a long dipper (10'-2") and a coupler. It also has the reach boom but I think that most 315s come that way (very few 315s with the M.E. arrangement) so it may not be worth mentioning. All the things I have mentioned factor in to how much the machine can lift. If it had a shorter dipper it would give up some reach but would gain in breakout and lift capacity. When I lift a tank I must remove the bucket to increase my lift capacity. With the hydraulic coupler (Cat pin grabber, wedge style) this is easy. The bucket I use for tank holes, leaching trenches, and fields is a Cat HD 36" bucket. It's VERY stout so it probably weighs around 2,500#. Comparing a 315 to a 315 may not be apples to apples unless they have the same arrangement.
true enough. My 315B has 1200# coupler and a long (10' 1") stick. I lift without the bucket too. just sayin.
I have hard time to understand how you guys can install septic system with backhoes....I did a septic installation last week that was a set of concrete tank(Septic tank and Bio-Reactor),I had a Hitachi 220, the hydraulic system needed to raise the pressure at max and the back of the machine begun really light as i was lifting them individualy. I think that a Cat320 or Hitachi200's size is the best for these jobs.With a machine that big, you have more distance that you can reach with alot of power and a reasonnable size for most of the jobsites....At least, you could rent a little machine if you need to do the job in very tight corners as i did. I did most of the job with a Cat 304, but i dropped the tanks in holes and fill back mostly with the 220.
I never have to set a tank. The precaster brings a truck with a boom crane mounted on it. Depending on the size of the field and how much room is avaliable, I will either use my 307 or 311CU. Sometimes i will bring a D3C Hystat to push the sand in for a mounded system, which most of our systems are. We did a couple of school systems, one had two 46' x 100' beds with 650 Enviroseptic tubes. We had 2 D 3's , a 311 CU, and a 312. We had to dig out the failed pipe and stone system first. Took 3 of us 5 weeks to complete.
our tank guys set the tanks. why would you bother doing it your self unless a really bad site? i mean i am in east tennessee and we do a lot of places that are no fun but if you have a backhoe why not just take a bit of the dirt from the tank hole and build a little road to the tank hole for the truck? i don't think our 1000 gallon tanks wiegh any where near 10,000 i would say 6-7 max. i don't think that having a 200 on a site for a job that takes a backhoe 6-7 hours is cost effective. i mean with that size you have to move with a tractor and lowboy instead of taking a backhoe behind a dump, with this setup just drop the smaller trailer on site and start hauling rock while the other guy gets the tank hole dug and set. then about the time he is done hauling, you are ready to put in the leech lines, end of day get it inspected and cover up, and haul it home. one truck to move the big stuff and one with the tools. this is how every one here does it, if we tryed to bring in 200 size machines we would need to have 200 per hour and price our selfs out of business, there is just more cost effective ways to do it.
I also found it hard to believe that those tanks are that heavy. The tanks that we buy have 4" thick walls and roofs, and I think the floor is 6" thick. I would imagine that they are pretty much the same everywhere. Traffic rated tanks are much heavier and MUCH more expensive. I haul my 315 behind my dump truck (on a triaxle trailer) and I could haul a 20 metric tonner, legally, if I had one. So my set up fits your model but with one exception. I can move MUCH more dirt in an hour than a backhoe. I think that $200/hour is too high for a 20 ton hoe but no matter the price per hour it all boils down to how much dirt you move in that hour. In theory a higher price per hour could end up being less expensive for a given task. 99% of the systems I do are fixed price anyway so it all boils down to my cost to get the job done. I know that the excavator does not efficiently tram material, such as rock, around the site but I will use it if I don't have to travel far or if I can back the truck to the edge of the field, and dump sand or rock in the field. I often use my A300 (skid steer) to tram material if it works out time wise. I can haul it behind the pick up (or the truck that hauls the tools, as you put it) so it really doesn't add much to the cost. If there are very large quantities I simply bring in the 3yd loader. Yes, it does cost more to mobe it in but it will make that up fast if you are moving large amounts of material. I agree with you that it does not make sense to haul in a 200 for a 6-7 hour backhoe job if it costs more to haul it or if your machine costs are not overcome by the additional productivity that machine. For me it cost the same to mobe either machine. One last thing. If you can do a system in 6 to 7 hours with a backhoe than you and I are not building the same kind of systems anyway. Most of mine take a few days to build. The last one I did had a 2400 sq. ft field.
most here are 1 tank, no distribution box. we cross over ditch to ditch. then 330 liner foot of three foot wide ditches. 235 feet if we can use panels
I'm positive your excavator can move a lot more dirt than a backhoe if your moving it 30ft, how about when it needs to move 80ft? One thing I've learned on here is that septic systems are built very differently in different parts of the country. Around here if everything goes as planned, easy site (lots of room, not steep) two guys who work good together and a backhoe could finish a system in 6-7 working hours. But your still going to have to wait on the inspector to back fill. :Banghead So 2-3 actual days.
we are good friends with most inspectors around here. so we call in the morning and tell them we will be ready in the afternoon. it works most days. i am not saying all days go this well but this is the plan most days!!
I see your point. As I mentioned, in the post that you quoted, I can use my skid steer (that can be pulled to the site behind the pick up that will be there anyway) or if the quantities are high enough I will mobe on the 3 yard loader. I also agree with your point about not building the same type of system (the point I was trying to make when I commented that we are probably not doing the same kind of system). I used to live in CA and the systems we did there were much simpler than the ones we have to do here. Things may be different out there now though. It has been 20 years since the last one I did out there. A lot can change in 20 years.
I knew exactly the point you were trying to make, I just had to bust your chops on the excavator comment. Thinks may not have changed as much out here as you would assume. Looking at the systems others around the county install, I'm amazed at how simple our systems are.
We always let the tank company set the tank and use a mini with a 3 ft bucket and a CTL