Is anybody familiar with the way the outrigger cylinders work on a Bil-Jax 3632T? I picked up a 2006 unit where the boomlift was removed and I bought the trailer half, outriggers and all. It looks like the cycliders are energized via a solenoid. I'm guessing those solenoids basically allow pressurized hydraulic fluid to be directed for either extending the cylinders or retracting them. I'm curious what voltage is used if my guess is correct, and is the rest of the system (3000 psi) continually under pressure and the solenoids are just gate valves? I've Googled for this and have found nothing related to my query, but I have download the parts PDF and it shows the cylinder/solenoid as a single part number. So no help there. Anybody familiar with how these cylinders operate? I'm thinking of using them in a different application. Thanks in advance.
I'm not familiar with that particular lift, but most electric tow behind units are 24V, no way I can confirm on that one though. That machine is a self leveling unit, meaning, you would activate controls to deploy outriggers and the machine controls would make outriggers go down, lift machine off the ground, and level the machine via each outrigger regardless of terrain by input to the controls from a level sensor. Once machine was off the ground and level, the outrigger controls would shut off automatically. If you purchased only the trailer portion, missing the upper rotating structure, not likely you're going to replicate this "self leveling" function, cost of parts to do so would be not worth it. You'll probably just going to have to rig up a reservoir, motor, pump, 4 stack/4 way valve with relief and operate the outriggers manually with the 4 way valves.
Thanks Willie, you're right the control parts from Bil-Jax are E-X-P-E-N-S-I-V-E! I understand what you're saying about the other hydraulic items being needed, but one of my curiosities is if the solenoids can be used in place of the spools to energize the up/down of those cylinders. And if not, is there a way to easily remove them and just hook the hydraulic lines directly to the cylinders. These four cylinders are pristine and I don't want to screw them up tinkering around and put them in a non-serviceable condition where I basically turn them into junk. Hence, I'm looking for a little guidence before I get out the chainsaw. And the rig does work off 24V as I recall, but I'm wondering if there is a voltage stepdown to the solenoids as I am not familiar at all with the electronics involved in the auto-stabilization of the rig.
In all honesty it's hard for me to give specific advice as I don't really know what we're working with, being not familiar with the machine/components and what you're left to work with after the machine has been sawed off at the knees as it were. All I'm saying is a little ingenuity can accomplish great things. You have outriggers, you have cylinders, all you need is the components to control them, doesn't matter whether it's solenoid valves or manual controlled lever valves, you need a hyd reservoir, a pump, a means to drive the pump (a motor), and control valves. I don't know if this helps, but that's the basics of what you need.
Is this going to be a stand-alone unit or is it to be run from a pto hyd system from the tow vehicle? Best keep the original valves in the outrigger cylinders. Knowing the length and the bore diameter of the solenoid coil for the outrigger cylinder valves will help in finding 12 volt coils that may be used in place of the 24 volt coils. If 12 volt is more desirable. What amount of weight are you planning to raise with the outriggers? This will help us compute the needed components for your project.
No problem, Willie. I understand hydraulics, what I don't understand is these dang solenoids at the base of these cylinders and whether the cylinders will work if they are removed. The bottom cylinder cap (when outriggers are upright) is a square integral unit that incorporates not only the pivot pin housing but also the solenoid mount and has a non-standard way of hooking up the two hydraulic hoses. I haven't taken the units off the trailer yet to get a closer inspection (bench work) so I'm still a wee bit in the dark. But I love a good challenge...
The cylinders will not work with the valves removed. They are not only the valves that extend and retract the cylinders, they are also the valves that keep the cylinder in the position they are set at. Like holding valves.
Ahh, notable information, didn't know solenoids were fitted at the cylinders. That does make things more complicated.
Hi VM, yea the cylinders would be run off of either a PTO or a power unit to supply pressure. The cylinders have a three and a half inch bore with a twelve inch throw, if that helps. One of the things I'm going to have to find out is the SWL for the outriggers. I could probably work backwards from the weight of the basket, its' 500 pound SWL, the boom weight, and the 32 or 36 foot extention away from the slew ring, but it would be handy if someone familiar with the unit (a mechanic?) already knew some of this stuff. Now that you brought it up changing the solenoids from 24V to 12V might be worth looking into although 24V is not a deal killer.
110 volt AC coils are also available. Here is the schematic of what you got: This is one cylinder isolated and re-drawn to make a bit clearer. Note the checks in the valve on the cylinder. That is what keeps the outriggers in the set position.:
Looks like a standby pressure variable displacement pump would work that system just fine.
Thanks VM, that's a huge help. I was thinking if I buggered the solenoids I'd be SOL and be facing one of those "My mother is coming to stay with us" moments. I'm trying to avoid that. So if I can pick your brain a tad more...the system needs to stay under pressure for the cylinders to to function properly, correct? Or are the check vavles enough to hold the outriggers if pressure is removed from the lines? You've been a big help and I'm glad to see Willie and I are on the same page now, because those solenoids make all the difference when using these cyclinders.
The system does not need to be under pressure to hold the outriggers in place. That is the job of the valve cartridges.
The original machine used a 2.0CC fixed displacement pump at 3300 rpm with a relief setting of 3000psi. It wouldn't take much to operate this but still depends on the load that is going to be lifted. Heck, a log-splitter set-up should do nicely.
Agree with mojo, those solenoid valves act as holding valves as well as delivery valve. That diagram is basically a closed center system, a positive displacement pump won't work without a means to dump the oil being delivered when valve operation is not selected, but a load sensing variable displacement pump would work that system.
Thanks guys, I'm like miles ahead now with the info you two have provided. I'm just starting to put the pieces together for what I'm hoping will make for a fun Spring project once the weather turns nice. Still a ways to go, but I'm getting there...
unless an electric/hydraulic power unit is used that shuts off when the controls are off.
Hey voodoo, an alternative, using a positive displacement pump, on some of the older JLG machines using gear pumps, they used a "sequence valve" as they called it to dump oil from pump when no operations are selected, would that not work in this application?
I-81, I-95, and I-66 are my home. If you need hands on help when you start this project, let me know.
LoL, I'm the opposite end of I-81, SE end of Virginia. Seems to me he could use a gear pump (fairly cheap) with some form of "sequence valve" to dump the oil when op's aren't selected, then use the solenoid valves to pop the outriggers.
Thanks, that's very generous. I'm actually right off I-81 myself between Harrisonburg and Winchester. Small world...
Yea Willie, that's the idea. Save the 'spool money' and run with what I brung.
Hey, not saying it's your solution Shenandoah, just bouncing thoughts inside this messed up cluttered up mind I have.
Hey, it's all good Willie. At my age I'm lucky I still have a mind...
that would be an option. A tandem-center valve would be all that is necessary to let the flow return to tank when the cylinders are not being activated. these things come with multiple sections Operating all four cylinders independantly is going to be the challenge that will prove to be a bit costly. Salvaging a manifold from another piece of equipment would be an idea. I guess it would matter what the intended use of this thing would be. EDIT: There is a long way to go on this. When the valves on the cylinders are activated, any oil pressure in the cylinder will be removed. If the cylinder is holding the machine up, it will let the machine drop. The pump circuit will have to be providing oil to the outrigger at the same time the valve is activated to prevent this sudden drop of the machine. The actual power unit that came with the machine has an extend valve and a retract valve on it. When an outrigger is chosen to extend, the pump starts, the pump extend valve opens, and the chosen outrigger valve opens, all simultaneously. When an outrigger is chosen to retract, the pump starts, the pump retract valve opens, and the chosen outrigger valve opens, all simultaneously: The machines Auto-Level system manipulates the individual outriggers to achieve a level position. It is controlled by a dual-axis level sensor. But this can all be overcome. That is the challenge!
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If I may steal your diagram mojo, and tinker with it a bit, this was my first simple thought, load sensing pump set at high stand by pressure, say 1000 - 1500 psi, with flow determined by a manual lever selector valve to select extend or retract outriggers yet still using outrigger mounted solenoids to operate one or all outriggers.
that and a system relief would be workable. It will be an interesting project once Shenandoah gets it under way. Used components are fairly easy to find. How many times throughout your career have you seen people replace a hydraulic part only to find that it was not what was needed to fix the problem? Sad thing is most times the part that was good gets thrown in the dumpster.
Yep, it happens. And probably those most aggravating problem I had once was a Vickers 110V pilot operated 4 way solenoid valve for a cardboard compactor, my diagnosis was valve was wore slap out. Ordered and fitted a new one, still didn't work. Ok, this is egg in face moment in front of customer. Go back through my system tests, problem still points to solenoid valve, the new one. Pull it apart, find the main spool is so stiff that I had to take a hammer and punch to shift it in the body. Supplier sent another one, problem fixed, after much head banging on the frame of that cardboard compactor. :Banghead
So if I'm getting this right, a wood splitter pump may do the job irrespective of the solenoid issues. Looking at log splitter pumps it seems they have two stage pumps that produce high volume - low pressure (500psi) in the first stage to allow rapid movement of the cylinders prior to major resistance being seen by the system, and then the second stage kicks in with low volume - high pressure (2500 to 3000 psi) to allow the cylinders to do the actual work. Also, should I use cylinder volume as a way to calculate GPM requirements for the pump or can a pump that produces a much larger GPM output work without causing problems. In other words, if the pump GPM is too large will that cause the cyclinders to react too fast without the addition of flow restrictors? Voodoo mentioned the Bil-Jax pump was a 2.0CC fixed displacement pump run at 3300 rpm which works out to about 1.75 GPM. So relating to my above question would a 6 GPM pump, as an example, be too much pump? It's obvious from the above discussion you guys are vastly more knowledable about hydraulics than I am, although I understand the schematics as well as the principles behind hydraulic power. Where I fall short is understanding the applications of single acting vs double acting pumps when not used is a "power up/gravity down" application, as an example among others. So choosing a correct pump is still a bit foggy. Also, is a variable displacement pump different than a log splitter type pump? Again, you guys have been a major help with this, so thank you very much for taking the time to help me out. It's much appreciated. If I seem dense on any of this it's just because I haven't reached that "ah ha" moment yet.
Flow is an important specification but horsepower and pressure need to be determined as well. An idea of the finished project's intended application and the maximum load that will be placed on the system is needed to effectively calculate for the components required. Once we know what the requirements are, we can determine the best way to achieve the desired results. Economy should be considered as well. No sense investing hundreds or even thousands of dollars on components when a fraction of that will do the job. Throughout the years I have seen these outriggered chassis bases used in many innovative ways. One of my favorites was as a portable tree spade. It worked well!
A portable tree spade...that's outrageous! I never even thought of that one. At this stage of the game I'm trying to get a good handle on what the componenbts capabilities are as there are several iterations of things I could use them for. The primamry idea so far is adding a small knuckleboom to one of my trailers. I plan on purchasing a a truck mounted knuckleboom this year and thought having a 'baby brother' to handle smaller jobs would be useful. I could probably use two of the outriggers to create the crane and use the other two as outriggers. The outriggers themselves are very substatial steel, in fact, much stronger than my current small crane. I've been a mechanic/fabricator for a long time, (bought my first welder in 1965), and playing around with this stuff is just flat out fun. The help you guys are giving me filling in the blanks with the hydraulic stuff is allowing me to see posibilities I may have missed on my own. So any last minute direction changes for this project, like making "a portable tree spade" out of this rig will only be a good thing. I know HP=GPMxPSI/1714, but what I don't have in concrete yet is how many other hydraulic components will be used if the final project. Obviously what I'm starting out with is a very substantial base of components (the chassis for this trailer is a massive torque tube) and the outriggers and the cyclinders are in very good shape because the boom itself was removed years ago and put on another vehicle that better suited the owners' needs. So all of this stuff is 'really low milage'. HTH.