Having an issue with the fuel shutoff solenoid. In order to start the engine, I have to first turn the key on, then physically push the solenoid rod into the solenoid, then start the engine. The electromagnet holds it in place and shuts down just fine when turning the key off. But, there doesn't seem to be enough "oomph" in the magnet to pull the linkage open on its own. I tried a spare one and it does the same thing. There's enough power to hold it open once I push the linkage into the solenoid. I would guess that if I made the linkage longer it might pull it open, but then the lever on the shutoff valve won't move as far. Thanks in advance for any tips/advice!
Not familiar with this particular machine but typically those external shutoff solenoids will have two coils, one that draws a lot of current to pull the rod in initially and then a much lower current winding to hold the rod in without overheating. Some machines have a separate wire that connects to the pull in winding that's only hot when the starter engages. Others will have just one hot wire connected to both windings but an internal switch opens when the rod bottoms inside the coil. Maybe that will help you diagnose it a bit more.
Hey thanks! I do have 3 wires going to the solenoid (Ign, Batt, Gnd) and just received the schematics from a dealer. Looks like there's a solenoid timer in the circuit, too, so I'll check all that out.
If your diagram shows a solenoid timer it sounds like you have an older model 331, like an X331. I'm not real familiar with those models, but fuel solenoids work pretty much the same no matter the machine. Like lantraxco stated that fuel solenoid has two internal coils, pull and hold. The wires aren't necessarily Ign, Batt, and Ground, rather, the red wire is for the hold coil, could be ignition, but on the later G series machine it's powered by the main controller (ECM), the black wire is ground, and the white wire is the pull coil, that wire can only be powered up for a few seconds or it will burn up the coil, hence the reason for the solenoid timer, the timer powers the white wire momentarily. On the G series machines they don't have that timer, the main controller trips a relay to power the white wire momentarily.
Willey and LAN are exactly right.. BUT.. a lot of x's IF... its pulling BUT NOT ENOUGH.. and holding when you give it "HELP".. Its just a dirty coil in the solenoid.. Make damn sure its pulling & seating as it should..< ie: full stroke.. Then take it off and pull the plunger out of it and clean the brass tube with some scotch brite/ emory cloth.. and the plunger itself.. It works miracals..
SSSSHHHH!!!!! (Dude, you're cutting into my parts sales here!) Kidding, kidding, nothing to see here.....
Hey I appreciate all the help! Before I read the responses though I ordered the timer. That puppy isn't cheap! So, plugged it in and it immediately worked like it should. Turn the key, it pulled the solenoid open and it held. But, within a second I heard a pop and it didn't work again. The timer comes with a fused (25A) circuit in-line with one of the hot wires (white/blue) which is hot with key off. That fuse blows every time I replace it and start over. The 10A ignition fuse stays fine, which is the one that becomes hot when IGN is turned on. If I put a momentary switch in place of the 25A fuse, it works. However, that was just a test as I wouldn't do that as a permanent solution...unless I have to. The Pumpguysc may be on to something, though. I'll try cleaning the spare fuel cutoff solenoid I have and see if that helps. Thanks!
No, I think you have a shorted coil in the solenoid.
Sounds like that to me as well, pull coil is shorted out. Those timers are not a computer, they're simply a set time "timer" to break power to the white wire, I don't know, let's say 5 seconds. If the pull coil is internally shorted to earth, you're going to pop that fuse in less than 5 seconds. On the later G series machines the computer (ECM) controls a relay that sends power to the white wire (pull coil) and on that wire they send a "sensory wire" back to the ECM, that way if the pull coil shorts out the ECM will see excessive current draw on that wire and shuts it down, fuel solenoid timers can't do that. I'd be real suspicious of that fuel solenoid.
Thanks for the responses! I agree it sounds like the solenoid now. I had a spare used one and installed it, but it did the same thing so I was thrown off a bit thinking two coils couldn't be bad. Too much coincidence. But after following the schematic it doesn't look like there's potential for anything else. I'll obtain a new one and see what happens.
You could ohm out the coils, see what you get?
Came across this old thread in an effort to resolve a similar issue on my 2009 Bobcat 331G. I can certainly start a new thread if that is preferable. My pull coil is not pulling when the key is turned on, but if I help it in, the hold coil will hold it. Mine is a new enough model where the ECM triggers a relay to activate the pull coil as @willie59 mentions above. I've identified this trigger wire as wire J on the J1 block on the back of the console cluster. If I measure current on that wire (either where it exits the cluster, or where it terminates at the relay) when I key on, I do not see any voltage to activate the relay. The fuel solenoid bench tests fine. Does this indicate a failure with the ECM, or is there something else I may be overlooking?
U say the “bench test” works fine.. Black wire is ground- White wire is pull in + Red wire is hold + If ur testing the pull in, u can use slight pressure on the plunger.. but that’s it> SLIGHT PRESSURE. If u have to push it all the way in, the solenoid is bad.. it has a burnt pull coil.. I hope that helps.
When I bench test using Black as ground, and white as pull in +, it pulls in instantly without help. I only have to help it/manually push it in when on the machine. Thanks.
Ok, thank u.. That should help “the others” in ur diagnosis.. I’ve never had to diagnose on the engine side of things, so good luck.
There is the possibility that the battery is dropping too low while cranking and the Solenoid is dropping out. If adding another battery for a test makes it work, then you know your battery is too weak. I had this on a generator I went to repair and so I installed 2 batteries parallel and no more problem. Simon C
But I should be able to read/measure voltage on the Fuel Pull relay trigger wire, shouldn't I?
Should be able to measure, and if the voltage is too low then it is a supply issue or connections or the coil grounding out just enough to cause the voltage to be too low to hold the plunger. That is basically what I would check for. Simon C
Could also be a linkage or clevis misadjusted. They have to have a full complete throw and can be finicky. They can also be tweaked a little side to side. I have to lube my linkage up occasionally.
Mine has an internal pull rod, so no linkage. I believe the root cause is that the relay trigger wire (wire 8110 highlighted on the attached schematic) isn't energizing/triggering the relay to pull the solenoid in. Which is a direct feed from the controller. I initially thought that relay should get triggered at key on, but the more I research, I believe that was for the old relay timer based configurations before the functionality was moved into the controller. i think it is actually to be triggered when the key is turned to the crank position.
If you look on the schematic, it looks like te fuel solenoid pull in coil, is tied to the crank post in the starter. That would pull it in as the starter cranks and drop out and rely on the holding coil as it’s running.
I was under the impression that the hi AMPS needed to activate the pull portion comes from the starter..
It actually is not high amps coming from the starter. The starter itself does draw high amps but the quantity of amps is determined by the size of wire and the resistance of the coil in the solenoid, which if the starter draws more amps than the battery will supply, the solenoid pull winding can drop out. Some have installed a separate relay with #10 or 12 wires feeding the pull winding of the solenoid that is actuated at the relay by the crank terminal of the key switch. When the key gets turned to the start location the relay sends power at the same time to the pull winding of the solenoid to engage the fuel pump rack. And Yes HarleyHappy is correct, the hold in winding stays on after the start switch is released from start position.. Simon C