Bobcat 943 Perkins 74hp will not start. Has no hours on new rebuild. I can lay a diesel soaked rag over air filter intake and it will fire once. But that's it. Does this model have a primer anywhere?
Who did the rebuild.. you or a diff. company?? Who put it in?? What engine? mechanical or electronic fuel system?? Are you getting any smoke from the exhaust?? color?? Some have a squeeze ball, to prime the system, other have an electric feed pump, and some are gravity fed. Either way, the system should be purged/burped before it hits the inj. pump. Make sure the glow plug system is working if equipped.
I put squeeze balls on all my diesels without them or a eclectic fuel pump. Steve
I like them too Steve.. they also help in diagnosing a clog sometimes.. A "flat" bulb means trouble down the line.. they also help w/ drain back problems depending on where you put them. cuz "basically", they're 1 way check valves.
Trying hard to not say something about the dangers of squeezing the balls of a Bobcat! Sorry about that. I know the older Bobcat we had at the quarry had one of those but it was hard to see as it was way up in the right side corner of the engine compartment. Couple other thoughts, does this machine have a fuel shut off valve in the line to the fuel tank? Ours was in the fuel line to the right of the fuel tank just before the line passed through the firewall. Not sure if the 943 has the same type of fuel pick-up in the tank but it has been a know problem with getting cracks and sucking air. If this engine has a mechanical pump run off the camshaft might be an idea to disconnect the outlet from the pump to see if it is pushing out any fuel. Many of those pumps have a manual lever to operate it by hand. Problem with those is they do not work too good if the engine stops with the pump lever on the high side of the cam lobe.
I bought the machine as a project, prior owner had engine rebuilt but no idea who did it. I will get serial number tommorow to verify engine. Electric fuel pump works. No smoke at all from exhaust while turning over. Still have not found a primer bulb or lever anywhere. I might add one once i get it running. I did a little more trouble shooting today, testing electric fuel solenoid on injection pump verified it working like it should. With key on,fuel pump running fuel flows into injection pump. BUT I cracked one of the lines at the injector,turned motor over, no fuel flow, not even a drop. I loosened all the lines one at a time, still no fuel at all going to the injectors. So I know the injector pump is getting fuel, its just not getting past the pump.
Well there ya go.. Remove the pump and get it serviced. If I knew what fuel system it had, I'd try to walk you thu it.. Can you take any pictures??
Tag on injection pump says nothing but Lucas cav,. Part number is worn off. Go figure.
I'm familar with the Bosch VE mechanical IP's, but I assume the CAV pumps use the same basic fuel shut off solenoid (FSS). Did you confirm a good 12V signal to the FSS, and you should be able to hear it "clunk" when power is applied and removed. But even then sometimes the tip get jammed into the orifice and could be blocking fuel. Even if the FSS is closed or not working the fuel will still run into the injection pump....the FSS shuts off the fuel going to the injectors if I'm not mistaken. If you loosen the injector nuts and crank it over there should be fuel squirting out at the injectors. If you have no fuel at the injectors, then the FSS is more then likely not working. I would pull it and check proper operation and condition.
You got me a remembrin, with that bobcat balls crack... See joke thread down in off topic...:lmao
Fuel shut-off solenoid is operating correctly, I removed it to verify operation. The pump is definately getting fuel, its just not getting to the injectors.
Pump is getting plenty of fuel, so any fuel shut off solenoids would not be the problem. Fuel is just not getting to the injectors. This pump does not have a manual prime at all. Ive reached around the engine compartment in every possible place and not finding a primer bulb.
Have you bled the air from the pump body? Two bleed screws, one just above the blue tag in your picture and the other one above it in the cover.
No I have not, did not know which were the bleed screws. Thanks for the info
If you have an electric fuel pump, there won't be another priming pump. It should squirt air and then fuel easily when you turn the electric pump on and open those bleeders. Then you wait until there's fuel with no air coming out the loose nut on the injector, then tighten them up. And if it still doesn't start, then look at your solenoid. The solenoid shuts off the engine, it DOESN'T drain the fuel from the injection pump, or stop the flow of fuel into the injection pump, that's just not the way it works.
Serial# 503313620
Thanks,. Will give that a try.
The bleeder is the double bolt above the blue name plate on the side of the pump. 5/16".. loosen that and turn the key on.. it should squirt.. tighten and loosen ALL the lines AT THE INJECTORS or as many as you can reach. NOW crank the engine.. getting fuel?? good.. tighten injector lines and off you go.. DO NOT SCRAPE THE NAMEPLATE!! you'll scrape the #'s right off of it.. Gasket stripper should be used..
Post #15 Delmer... if the solenoid doesn't stop the flow of fuel to the pumping circuit of the injection pump.. WHY is it mounted there?? Are you high?? How do you stop a diesel engine if you don't cut off the fuel or air?? Have we learned nothing from my little HEF class's?? Class.. please enlighten Mr. Delmer.. Also, your not going to get fuel out of the lines at the injectors by JUST running the electric lift pump.. The injection pump has to inject/pump the fuel to the injectors.. The injection pump has to be rotating for this to happen..
Pumpguy, this is what I was responding to. I guess my post did make it seem like the electric pump would bleed the injector lines, sorry.
loosend both bleeder screws, turned key on, fuel shot out both bleeders a ft or so. Ran pump for 30 seconds to make sure no air in system. Tightened everything up. Tried starting, no luck, no smoke out of exhaust. Broke injector lines again no fuel, not a drop. Im going to pull pump this evening.
WAIT... Its probably just a stuck metering valve.. or atleast that's something else to check before spending $$. + your going to need a puller to pop the gear off, unless you have enough room the smack the driveshaft.
Have a slow leak on lower back side of pump, its coming off to repair that regardless. Is the metering valve the left actuator/arm on top cover?
^^ the pic in post#8 the lever on the top left is the 'kill lever' to mechanically stop the injector pump from pumping. looks like it is sprung right but if someone had the cover off and didn't get the arm pivot back in the right place it could give you trouble... when you move it does it feel like it is moving parts inside the pump? you should be able to feel it slide the linkage inside with a tiny amount of backlash.
Picked up Delphi rebuild kit today. Everything went smooth. Metering valve was seized solid. Purchased and install all new parts. Only question is does this kill arm spring look correctly aligned? And 3 holes on throttle plate 3 whole on throttle arm. I know top whole on plate is were it was originally, but spring fell off the arm. Does it go on top whole of arm to match top whole on the plate? Thanks guys getting close.
Looks like the same gov' spring set-up as the Bosch VE IP's....so that is what it should look like, at least to my eyes. As for the throttle indexing....no idea.
The info you need is on the name plate.. that you never posted..
The lever on the sh-off shaft is backwards. the big part over hangs the cover. then everything will fall into place..
3348f111
#2 on the gov. link, middle... #3 on the throttle, closest to the pivot.. MAKE SURE the thr. arm is in the CENTER of the spring coils.. not on the outside of the coils.
I didn't remove the governor link , it was on first/top hole. Will put it on middle.
IF your #'s are right.. 3348F111..its 2&3. spring code 6
I just noticed something in your pic.. it has another name tag on the mounting flange on the pump..??? It might be an application tag.. that's to say, they changed the spring code or fuel setting and put another tag on the pump..
Good catch. 3348f167 is number on that
No such # found.. is that all the #'s??
Other number . 2643c270rt/3/2310
That's more like it.. 1 on gov, top and 3 on throttle.. no load rpm is 2310
I've got fuel flow at injectors,. But still no starting or smoke of any kind from exhaust. Does this model have glowplugs? None of the dash lights work, so can't tell what's working.
You say you have "flow at the injectors" would I be right to assume you mean while cranking it over with injector lines loose? Would this be the lines that come from the injector pump or are you talking about the line that jumpers from on injector to the next?
The lines that run directly to injector from pump. Each cracked loose have fuel coming out while cranking.
:Banghead Your standing right there.. if it has some, they'll be infront/behind the injectors. I find this odd.. You can remove AND repair an injection pump but cant tell if an engine has glow plugs??
Sorry pump guy,. Was asking cause there is nothing on injector side. I find it odd that there is nothing infront/behind injectors. Didn't know if somehow they were on the top/backside of engine which I can't see.
If you google bobcat943 it shows gp's..?? being a perkins engine it might have a thermostart in the intake manifold?? but they normally run, get the fuel from, a line off the injection pump and run a power wire from the ignition switch..
Don't know if you can read this. Looking through manual the word "glowplugs" is non existent. Found this about "quick start fluid" built on to machine.. Although mine is obviously missing. I thought ether was bad news for a diesel engine, I know people use it but for it to be straight from factory with it built on is quite surprising to me.
A lot of equipment has this as an option. If you take a picture of the engine I am sure we can point out just where the glowplugs and related equipment is.
This is a more controlled use of ether than spraying a bunch into the intake manifold then cranking it. If it has ether, then it doesn't have glow plugs, you don't use them together.
Right, no glow plugs or manifold heater when it comes with a ether can. You could try and give it a 2 second shot of either while its cranking. The thing is it should be smoking some when its cranking. Steve
Snap a pic of head & injectors and the intake manifold.
Will get pictures of engine in the morning, ran out of daylight. Am I wasting my time trying to start a supposidly never ran motor in 35 degrees, with no heat to engine? I really figured I would see some smoke by now.
Don't forget, it has to be turning over FAST ENOUGH to heat the cylinders.. If its only turning over 3 or 4x and the battery or starter gives up, and you have to let it rest or get a jump, she'll never start..
Yes controlled not like someone who holds the button down on a can of starting fluid with the engine knocking like a guy hitting it with a 20LB sledge. Just for your information some of the newest Cats we had at the quarry came stock with the starting fluid canisters. Those were controlled by the engines computer no operator input needed, forget if there was even a manual way to operate them. Do know that when you hooked up "Cat ET" computer to the machine one of the things it would show you was how much starting fluid had been used. Funny thing was at least one I looked at the amount came up as gallons used!! Seems like the amount was something like .003 gallons!
No matter if it has glow plugs or not, it won't start if there's no fuel, and if you're not getting a decent whiff of diesel and fog out of the exhaust, then there's no fuel. Every diesel I've seen that won't start at a cold temp will still blow quite a cloud of diesel fumes until the block heater warms it enough to fire. It wouldn't surprise me that a new engine (with rings not seated, not broken in at all) wouldn't start at 35, but it should blow smoke if the injectors are firing. So Ken, was that .003 gallons over the life of the machine, or per start? That's almost a third of an ounce, quite a shot of ether, but bigger engine too I suppose? edit: it will start and run on ether if you're careful, sure helps get the air out of the system some times, not that I'd recommend it.
Or.... if the injector pump is not installed/timed right...
OK lets get back.. you have fuel AT the injector lines.. BUT no smoke while cranking.. Its possible that, seeing the mv was stuck tighter than Dicks hatband, your pumping plungers aren't getting a full stroke.. Take 1 injector out and hang it on the side of the engine.. to SEE if its delivering fuel TO THE ENGINE.. You could have fuel to the injectors but not enough pressure to open the injectors.. ALSO, the injectors might be stuck w/ the same old fuel that was in the pump..?? Just hang an injector to see..
Just a note for safety to add to this good idea. DO NOT! get your hands or other body parts close to the tip of the injector while doing this! If the pump is working and the injector starts spraying fuel like it should it could shoot fuel right through your skin and besides hurting it can be fatal. We would not want that to happen as we would have to explain how to start this Bobcat engine to a new person
good one KH..
That reading was total to date for the engine. Not sure why the decided to show the amount in gallons! A Cat mechanic I was working with also thought that was strange we both thought putting it in ounces would have made more sense. Makes as much sense as giving the fuel tank capacity in Tablespoons!
Fuel is shooting out about 2 inch pulses each line. Not enough pressure to pop the injectors open? Gonna pull a injector to try that route.
Just pull that #1 inj. lay it on its side and hook it back up.. it looks like its the easiest one.. Don't bend the lines to much..
Ok. Its popping open. I'm getting smoke now out exhaust. Just not everytime I try to start it.
I just noticed your filter set up.. did you have it off/apart?? IF so.. did you put the oring, on the filter or up in the filter head when you reassembled it.?? Probably should have changed it.. a dented filter canister is asking for trouble..
No sir, never took it off. Should I replace before anymore trying to start ?
I cant believe your even trying without changing it.. BTW> the oring on top goes UP IN the filter head.. NOT ON the filter..
Fuel filter was in good shape, I assumed they changed when it was rebuilt . Replaced because of dent. Had to use a little ether to get her moving. But she fired and I ran it at low-mid rpm until it was up to temperature, then shut her down. Runs good, doesn't seem to have ANY blow by. Appreciate all the help, especially pump guy. Thanks for sticking with me through it all.
:thumbsup Thanks for the update.
Good deal getting it going. I had small Perkins this summer customer worked on no start for days. One of the issues I found was he couldn't get fuel past filter housing pulled filter off looked at top and was only a hole in the middle after few mins I realized the o ring was pushed in filter it fits perfectly I see how it happens. If I was in a hurry i could see myself doing that. He also discarded sealing bushings and had primer pump clocked 180 pushing towards tank. Poor guy was kicking his own *** pretty good. With fuel systems I like to start at beginning and work forward may not always be the fastest but usually don't over look anything.
GOOD JOB!!! and thanks for updating us..