Sorry if I don't know a lot about these things , I've read a ton of posts and tried a few things that I'm capable of and still not figuring out my problem... Anyways I have a 2001 bobcat t190 with the Kubota v2003t motor in it , 1,475 hrs and it got hot about 2 years ago and ruined the motor , after saving up and $3,800 for a complete rebuild we finally got it back in and it runs fine , idles fine and hydraulics are fine , but when u try and go up any grade of significance it starts losing power and blowing a little black smoke and I have to pull the levers back some to let it power back up and kinda inch it along , it's like it wants to bog out with the levers full forward, both in reverse and forward ... I have changed the air filters and the fuel filter twice, I have checked the belt tensioner and made sure it's tight, I have pulled the air cleaner and intake to the turbo and spun it and even ran it without the tube on and seen the turbo spinning, I have pulled the exit hose from the turbo and there's no oil .... So what's some more suggestions ? Anyone ran into this problem ? Thanks for any and all input , this things tried all my patience
1st thing that comes to mind is restricted fuel coming from the tank..... 2nd thing is too much fwd travel on the steering levers. on flat ground, does the machine run faster in fwd than it does in reverse? :drinkup
Injection timing correct?
I lifted the cab up and it doesn't look to hard to get to the fuel plug that goes into the tank, should I pull that out chief ? And I ran it today to see if it's faster in reverse then forward and they seem about the same , maybe a tad bit faster in reverse ...?
That's a good question , my buddy and I did it (he's a heavy equipment mechanic but he's never done bobcat stuff .... How would I know if it's correct ? Maybe that's why it starts but not nearly as easy as it did before ... Turns over about 10 seconds before firing and smokes what looks like white or grey smoke at first but then clears right up ...
Sorry to hear about your trouble Tillys26, and welcome to HEF. I can't say what your problem is, not near enough info yet for that, but just my humble opinion, a Kubota in a T190 is much like an old two stroke Detroit engine, if you have to crank it for 10 seconds, they's something not right. And again, just my humble opinion, but $3,800 dollars for a complete rebuild? That sure sounds cheap. Who did the overhaul?
Ok, yes, that's more info for sure, but with the amount of work that's been done it's still going to be tough to pinpoint what the problem is over an internet chat. From what you've stated, fired right off after the initial rebuild and install, then discovered the head was cracked, replaced head with new head, but even with this done, as time went by, took longer to crank and start engine. Curious problem indeed. A very typical problem with Bobcat machines is fuel supply restriction, mentioned previously by crewchief888, but given the timeline of events you describe that doesn't sound like the problem. Fuel restriction typically shows up under hard load, not so much causing having to crank engine for 10 seconds for cold start up. Still not sure what's going on with this one. :beatsme
Did you check the injectors?
I have not pulled the injectors out yet , I'm trying to see what the general consensus I should do first before tearing stuff apart.... One more thing , when I tried adjusting that main drive belt tensioner I loosened the nut up and pried with a pry bar down but the spring stayed at the 1 postion instead of the 3 like its suppose to , I took the tensioner off and it spins etc fine and I can grip it and turn it where the doing turns to the 3 postion but not with it bolted loosely onto the motor ....? I just made sure the belt was tight.... I'm going to order a new belt as that one looks worn n cracked
Just to clarify, when you say the machine is losing power under a hard load (like going up a steep hill), is the engine RPM actually going down like the engine is stalling, or is the engine holding its RPM and instead it's just the machine starts slowing down and losing power to pull the grade?
Just got out today to look at a few Things , we checked the glow plugs thinking maybe that's why it was having hard time starting but they checked out ... I also checked and made sure the tensioner on main drive belt is at 3 and it is .... Seems like it must be a fuel Issue to me since the glow plugs are good .... And I'm not sure if it's the engine stalling out or if it's pulling down the Rpm .... Hard to tell ... I do know that if I pull The sticks back some that the rpms pick back up and it will Slowly go up The hill but powers still Down ... Any ideas what to do next ???
Most likely not but check both the intake and exhaust for a mouse nest, could happen after sitting a long time. Steve
I checked both when I was checking to make sure the turbo was ok ...
I have been reading updates, and sorry to hear that you have not found the issue yet _ I just thought I'd ask if you had 'dumped the fuel tank' and started with known/new good fuel _ and are other machines are using the same Diesel supply, and if so, are they all running properly accordingly..?? Hope it gets better there soon!!
Yes as Bobcan stated have you gotten rid of the old fuel. I have seen a generator with a large fuel tank stalling out with 2 year old fuel and it never did it again once we used new fuel. It is worth a try. simon
I will try and drain it tomorrow and see if that changes anything
Just a little test you can do to test for air leaks in the fuel system is to put a rag over the fuel filler and put a air blower pipe into the tank neck 6 inches and have someone put about 1 psi of air into the tank contiuously. The excess air will leak out past the rag so as not to rupture the tank. If there is any air sucking into the fuel system before the fuel pump, it will leak at that spot in no time flat with light pressure pushing from the tank. I have used this trick many a times. Simon
I checked the elbow and the filter on the fasts I and that all seems to be fine, I will do more checks when I get back in a week , thanks everyone for trying to help out its much appreciated
Ok still trying to figure out what the problem is , its all brand new fresh diesel , new fuel and air filter, i pulled the fuel line and checked the filter in the gas tank, we have tested the glow plugs and they seem to be fine, next thing we will try is putting the air hose in the fuel filler and see what that does if anyting.... im wondering if the timing is maybe off ??? like i said it starts easier if i pump the fuel bulb up before trying to start, but still takes 5-10 seconds ....and when its warm it starts right back up no problem..... almost like it loses prime over time and thats why i have to pump the bulb. Should i take those injectors out and have them tested ? wouldnt they have tested them when they rebuilt the motor ? Ughhhh so frustrating
Hey Willie let me clear this up real quick , it started fine when we first put the rebuilt motor in but then noticed the head still had a pin hole leak so we took the head off and got a new one and when we got it back together it is now having a harder time starting , usually about 10 seconds turning it over , sometimes sooner if i pump the fuel bulb up ... so im wondering if it doesnt have something to do with the injector timing .. i need to order a service manual for it im thinking ... its a 2001 t190 with the kubota v2003t motor
Jumping in late, but I would pull all the lines to the injectors and clean the ends. It's possible you are getting air in the system somewhere.
Tillys26 here is the timing procedure out of the maunal from you. Send me a message if you cant see it and I can send them to you in an email.
Thanks Greenhead21 for taking the time to put that on there for me, were still trying to do a few other things before we tear into that , since the injector pump wasnt taken off when we took the head off so it really shouldnt be off with the timing , but maybe worth a shot if nothing else works out , im wondering if its not somethihgn in the drive maybe ? we took the lines off and ran it straight from the gas can we mounted on top to bypass the tank and bulb and everything and it didnt change anything ...also we did the air in the fuel line fill and no leaks or anything ..... still cant figure out why its so hard to start initially like its losing prime.... but after it starts it idles and runs fine(besides when it loses power when going up steep grade or handles all the way forward up a hill ) and restarts fine ..... sooooooooooooo frustrating
Does anybody know the torque specs for the fuel injectors ? I'm having them rebuilt as they said they were bad and just dribbling ..... Thanks hopefully this is gonna be the cure lol
i cant recall ever seeing a spec for them... :drinkup
Ok beyond frustrated, we got the new fuel injectors back, $350 later, bolted them in and started it back up and still the exact same, nothings changed, it still turns over about 10 seconds for the initial start, runs and idles fine then powers down when you go up a steep grade ...... so anybody have any other ideas ......? it will start up fast and easy once you have started it once .... losing my mind on this .......
if the injection timing was wrong would it still idle fine and run fine on flat ground ???
Was the transfer pump ever changed? How about the fuel shutoff solenoid linkage? Is it external?
I'm not a diesel mechanic, however since this started after you changed the head: Are you sure the new head is the same as the one you replaced? Can a thicker head gasket significantly change the compression? Have you checked the valve clearance? Swapping out a head is not too involved. If the engine was running properly with the cracked head would lead me to look at what was changed, adjusted or touched during the head swap.
That's the problem I'm Starting to second guess myself On whether it did start ok before I replaced the head because it was about 6 months in between..... And ya it was the same head , I haven't went back to check the valve clearances , would that possibly cause this type Of problem ?
The transfer pump wasn't changed ... And the fuel Solenoid linkage is external and seems to be fine
Just tagging along, as I have all the same issues. Mine takes A LOT longer to start than 10 seconds, but the total lack of power when going up a grade where the engine bogs down and smokes like crazy unless you let off the sticks to get RPM back up. all I know that was done to mine at some point was the head... its a different color. I have done timing check, injectors, injection pump, all fuel pumps, and tank, and hoses, and intake and exhaust, and everything.. I'm about to drop the money and just get another engine completely.
I asked about the head because I have read that Kubota manufactures this engine (and other models) with either direct or indirect injection heads. I don't know if the heads require different pistons or whether the heads require different supporting parts. My comments were based on the limited number of things that you probably touched or changed during the head swap. If these symptoms truly started after the head swap then either the swap started the issue or coincidentally, a new issue is causing the problem.
Tillys26 do you happen to know where you got the cylinder head that was installed on this machine? Was it an actual Kubota cylinder head or an aftermarket? The one I installed was from Kumar Bros USA wonder if the aftermarket head has something to do with the tolerances not being to spec or some other issue with the machining of the head.
Does yours Idle Fine and run fine on flat ground ? Mine seems to ... It's not as much power as should be ,but it does run fine ...so frustrating
I bought mine from kumar bros also .... Everything looked to be the same I just don't understand how it idles And runs fine on flat ground ... Though it seems it should have more power ... I wonder if it has anything to do with the turbo ... Even though I see no problems With the turbo and I still have the starting issue which has nothing to do with the turbo I'm completely lost
Did you buy yours with the valves already assemblied? Mine was fully put together from Kumar bros. Mine stars fine and has good idle. For the most part on flat ground it runs ok but definetley has a lack of power and when trying to go full speed ahead of in reverse with joy sticks all the way forward or back it smokes black smoke and has a 10-20% power loss. Going up a hill as mentioned will kill the machine unless you let off the joy sticks and then the rpms will come right back. I am thinking there is something up with the head that Kumar bros is selling that is leading to these issues. Everything worked and ran fine before head being replaced and the only thing that was changed was the head leads me to believe that the head and the assemblied valves are the problem. I am going to call them tomorrow and see if they have an answer.
Today I was finally able to get in touch with the trouble shooting guy at Kumar Bros. Kinda what I figured he would say was what he did. He hasn't seen this issue at all so doesn't believe it is a head issue. He figured it was a bad piston or ring. Doesn't make much sense to me but that was his take on it. He said that the head they machine is universal fit for V1903 V2003 and V2203. Does anyone know if this is correct that the heads on these engines are all interchangable? He was saying the only difference was that the Tier I Tier II and Tier III just have different coolant passage paths but the rest of the head is the same. So he is saying that because it is only a difference with the coolant passage ways it would not affect the performance of the machine. I thought the Tier I Tier II and Tier III versions of these engines had to do with the updates in emissons and designs of the engines? Am I wrong or can someone explain what the Tier I II and III stand for or what the differenece is. I called Bobcat today and they want $1,800+ for just the head. SO with that said not excited about changing that head again. Any help on these questions would be helpful.
I cant call it greenhead , have you happened to talk to any of the mechanics at the bobcat shop ? were out in middle of the sticks so we dont have a shop close , id like to go talk to one and see if they have any ideas ...... im hoping for someone to chime in with more ideas that i haven tried lol
I've experienced Diesels that smoke like a son of a gun if there is a leak in the turbo pipes or gaskets, and especially (on vehicles) if the MAF, or other (like temp) sensor is just a little out of calibration. Either can throw the air/fuel off and sometimes it's the small things that screws things up. In fact, ensure the entire air path is free from obstructions (had a hidden air screen once that full of dead bugs!). I'd consider doing a pressure test on the turbo pipes. Just block off the ends with a block-off plate or hose with a PVC pipe cap, and screw in an air regulator (like from a paint spray gun that is an air regulator with a gauge), put in about 10 psi of compressed air and listen/feel for leaks. You should hear right away if there's a leak. Sometimes gaskets don't get tightened right or a stiff old hose gets a crack in it during the new motor install process that you can't see and that could do it. If you scan diesel forums for "smoke" you'll see turbo pipe issues are common. Also, not sure how the Bobcat turbo is actuated, but there's probably a linkage to it that moves a lever which controls inlet guide veins (IGV). Make sure that moves freely and whatever is actuating the turbo veins work properly. The turbo can spin freely, but the IGV (if there are any on your rig) regulate the air. I don't know Bobcat's enough to know their turbos. But if nothing else, you can eliminate one possibility if you prove the air path is good. I'm not a diesel mechanic per se, but had to track down enough issues over the yrs, a lot of times it's the small things that really make ya scratch yer head. Maybe others can chime in.
Thanks i will take a look at the hoses again ..... my bobcat doesnt really put out black smoke...it seems to have some grey -white smoke when it first starts but thats about it ..... and not sure if the bobcat turbo has that igv valve thing your talking about either, ive wondered if theres something not allowing the turbo to work properly .... im just irritated at not being able to figure it out
ever have any luck on yours ????????
This is what I finally came up with for my machine. Took it to Bobcat and never took the injection pump off. They checked compression came back at 350 across the board, but starts good. Thinking the thickness of the new gasket could be the explanation behind it being a touch low but not out of spec. They check the aux controls to make sure one wasn't getting stuck on or slightly on drawing power from the engine, that checked fine. They check the brakes to see if they were catching or sticking, that checked fine. They checked the turbo, the checked fine. Checked valve clearance which was off some compared to the procedure they use. They explained that Kubota valve adjustment isn't a standard procedure from normal adjustment. Once valves were adjusted it still didn't run right. They pulled injectors and had them tested again they tested fine. They cracked the flange nut for the injection pump and found that the number 2 and 3 injectors were not getting the right about of fuel. the fuel was dripping out of the number 2 and trickling out of the number 3. 1 and 4 were spraying a good strong stream. Pulled the pump and replaced with one off another machine and it ran like it should. There is also a fuel supply screw that can be adjusted on the side of the injection pump. When you are looking at the injection pump from the back of the machine it would be on the left hand side of the pump. Low idle was low at 940 should be around 1100 to 1200 so they will adjust that up and the high idle was 2800 should be 2850 to 3000 so they will adjust that up. Now waiting on new pump to get here next week and should have it back by end of week about $2000 lighter. I asked about the universal head that I thought was maybe causing the issues. They said that tier 1 heads and pumps are no longer available. The new pump will be a tier 2 pump, but that tier 1,2,3 and heads are universal for certain engines example the v2003 and v2203. The only issue is when one would get into the tier 4 where the head has changed so they were not worried with the head that was installed. The had a concern with the gasket thickness, but noted that the compression would be the only real issue they would be worried about with it. They said sometimes they will see in the injection pump the plunger or the spring break. We do not have a place in ND that can rebuild these pumps so I was stuck with a new one at $923. Either way they seem to have got the machine back to working or at least the issue narrowed down for now. Will keep you posted if anything else comes up that could help.
My t300 does the same thing, it's totally fuel related on mine, lots of sludge in the tank and it gets clogged up in the primer bulb. Take the primer bulb off and give the bulb a few squeezes into a clear container and see what comes out. I do this every month or so and clear out the fuel filter. It's annoying but the fuel tank access bolts are all mashed flat underneath and I haven't had time to weld some new nuts on. Simple.... But check that out too.