Looking to purchase either one of these two machines. I will use the machine for mainly dirt work in the summer and snow removal in the winter. I know the MTL will have a bit better traction in the snow than the CTL (Will have winter tracks for CTL) but not sure if the added traction of the MTL is worth the durability concern? Wanted to get some reviews from people who have tried these machines and see how you liked them. Both machines are in the ball park price wise (Within $2,000 of each other). Both dealers are good to deal with and have good support. Thanks in advance.
What kind of attachment will you be using for snow removal? And are you doing contracts or just your own?
Run them both for a day. Make sure you get in and out of the cab at least 100 times. Fill a 5 gallon pail full of gravel and practice coming up to the pail with the corners of your loader bucket. Make sure you do it with both forward/backward travel and side to side. Put the loader halfway up and try and back through a gate or into a shop door. Get back to us with the results. opcorn
Will be using a 96" snow bucket. Would look into getting something larger in the future. I do quite a bit of my own land along with a few contracts. Thanks for this. Getting in and out of the Cat was somewhat awkward. Visibility was one of the concerns I had with the Cat, the wiper motor blocks quite a bit of your vision to the bucket and of course the rear visibility is not good at all. Didn't get much chance to try the Bobcat yet other than sit in it but did get to try the Cat for a day. Thinking my best bet will be to look into the Bobcat further.
The rear visibility in the CAT is worse than not good, it doesn't exist. That said the MTL wont be beat in the snow, even with a CTL with Polar tracks. Ideally if your primarily a dirt contractor, I would get the machine that would work best in the dirt which will be the CTL, then find a used MTL or ASV for Winter work. They can be had pretty cheap.
Rear fisability on all of my CAT CTL's is the best I have ever used and I have owned every brand on the market at one tine OT another in my lifetime. All of my CAT's are equipped with the optional backup camera...no worries at all if you are using the camera. Perfect vision always ! I plow with a 96 inch power angle blade on my 299XHP and my 259d machines. Both are highly capable of pushing any amount of snow you can put in front of them with no issues...we run snowmobile studs in our CTzl's that done commercial plowing. Works pretty good. I have run the polar tracks as well. No rubber tracked machine is great in icy condition regardless of brand or make but can get the job done easy enough with a good operator.
The camera works fine when it is not snowing, dusty or the sun hits in just right. Without the camera there is zero visibility except for gazing at the Big Dipper. The CTLs can push snow until your on a polished surface, than not so much. The MTL works much better in this application. That nonsteel belt struggles in some applications but is perfect for snow removal. That's is my experience anyway.
That was pretty much the only reason why I was considering a MTL was for the winter as I could tell there is a size-able difference in traction between it and my machine with polar tracks. Thanks for the input everyone it is helpful.
I just come out of bobcat [sjs], may be I had a lemon but the cat self leveling bucket up and down that works, ride control that I would not go without and return to dig. it takes a little getting used to getting in and out but after a week its fine. I sure like not getting soaked with fuel every time I fill up too, let along soaking the air condition compresser every time mine would shoot fuel out 5 foot every time. I cant see out the back of any of them but the camera sure is nice. another thing is the floor mat can be picked up and dumped, which is nice. I cant beleave I went the last 9 years with bobcat, there is no comparision to cat that's my .02 . last bc had 300 hours when I traded and 75 hp my cat is also 75 hp and it not even close. lol for sure stay away from doosan
It's about time I got a likeminded friend(ally) here....thank you Warbird for singing CAT's praises....
I forgot to mention about the gps that's on them. cat knows were the machine is all time and how many hours are on it [theft or repo] and my dealer will send me 2 complete sets of all filters at 400 hours and another set at 1000 hours at no charge, he said they will be at my door when I get the hours its just something that cat does. as far as camera not working in snowing, dusty or the sun hits in just right. I cant see in front of me in that condition
Same here on the filters....I have them sent to me free of charge at the same hours marks, plus they give me free oil analysis kits..,I take the sample and mail it i for free and they perform the analysis and provide a report with recommendations if needed....plus the GPS provides allot of valuable I formation by operator in my case. I can tell allot of things my operators are doing or not doing based on those reports. Allot more to CAT than just the best machines on the market...
Our local dealer had a brand new D series machine stolen, the Cat product link(?) gps that comes standard on the machine lead the police right to where the thiefs had it hidden at, he said the gps can't be turned off and is well hidden on the machine, that alone is really nice imo. Again, if the sun is glaring so bad that I can't see out the back window chances are I'm not seeing much out the front either. You won't beat the MTL plowing snow, I've plowed with them all, hands down in the same weight class you won't beat the 297D or PT100 Terex plowing snow. If you are doing dirt work most of the time you would be fine with the MTL, if you were doing more abrasive work like tearing out concrete everyday I would look at the CTL, you'll wear out tracks just as fast on either, only issue you'll have on the MTL is the drive lugs ripping off. But on the same note I've seen a good amount of CTL tracks that have torn apart... What dealer has the best service? For me Cat can have any part next day, Bobcat you could be waiting a few days.
I am not sure I get the rationalization that if I cant see out of the camera I cant see out the front either, it makes no sense really. Cameras are effective in good conditions, and they are less effective in unfavorable conditions. Movindirt your not suggesting that the wear rate on an MTL is the same as a CTL are you? An MTL is much more expensive to keep running than is a CTL in anything other than the easiest of ground conditions. An MTL in the snow is excellent, pure topsoil fine as well, any type of aggregate and the wear gets progressively more expensive. That is not even debatable. Telematics are available in skid steers other than CAT, CASE has it and I am sure others do as well. It is a cool feature, the biggest advantage I think is the dealer can identify codes that are thrown remotely, much like ONSTAR. Should a service truck need to be sent out, they already have a good idea where to start, no doubt it would save money on in field repairs. However soon this will be coming standard to all machines and the purpose is to monitor emissions (so I am told). I don't think it is standard on CAT since when I priced a 299D this Fall it was an option at that time, however soon it will be mandated it sounds like. You guys are a little too CAT sensitive I think. No one is conspiring against you. We all run what we chose to and there are a lot of choices.
Sensitivity is for chicks...it's all about debunking the B.S. that people type on here at times for me , .allot of misinformation and misdirection by folks that don't presently own or have ever owned a machine they seem to know so much about...if you only demo'ed a machine that about all you can comment on, a 10 minute demo conversly long term users have much more insight to offer and less BS. Real facts from real users....
pcl did you try the bobcat yet? would like to hear your report, wish you had both at the same time to give honest report.
Yes got to try the Bobcat today. Here is what I think of it. Overall I was extremely impressed with the Bobcat. From a visibility standpoint it is great. Out the front you can see both corners of the bucket without having to lean forward in the seat. From the sides I couldn't find many vision issues with the boom at all and was overall very good the Cat may be a touch better because of the boom being more compact. Getting in and out of the Bobcat is seamless if you need to get in and out of the machine often, the door swings open nice and wide I was really happy with that.. Out the back of the machine the vision is very good. There are only two negatives I could find vision wise with the Bobcat, first is vision to the forks, the hydraulic lines and actuator for bob-tach are in your sight line and don't give you a clear vision of the forks. The second is vision out the side of the machine to see the rear of the tracks for loading/unloading. Overall after about twenty minutes or so I felt I knew where I was with the machine was and was able to navigate tighter areas very easily. I liked the information display and how all the switches are in front of you, everything seemed to be placed where you would want them to be. Overall the switches and information display felt of high quality to me, I wasn't very fond of the Cat's switches being at the top of the cab on the left side. I liked the placement of the radio being in front of you as well vs being behind you in the Cat. Overall the entire cab had great fit and finish, the only item I did wish the bobcat had was a cloth heated seat, that was a nice feature of the Cat. The cab was nice and quiet and sealed well not quite as quiet compared to the Cat but it is still very good. The SJC controls in the Bobcat are butter smooth and extremely accurate, I felt instantly at home with the controls on this machine and much more comfortable than with the Cat. The ride with the roller suspension is better than my current machine but not to the level of the Cat. The breakout force with the Bobcat was very good, never really had any issues moving any piles of snow that have sat for a few weeks, the pushing power was very good as well. These two area's I felt the Bobcat had a big advantage over the Cat. After trying both I think that I am leaning towards the Bobcat. The machine that I tried was the iT4 machine with the Kubota engine which I think is the better way to go. Could care less to worry about DEF.
Farmer you may want to find a Snickers bar.
IMO the best controls out there right now. The Kubota with pilots is VERY good as well, but needs a better cab. After a full season with our 770, I have only a couple of complaints on the Bobcat. The fuel fill is $hi+, even running the nozzle on slow it usually will burp out some fuel. The auto-level for the bucket could be a little smoother. Last but not least, fuel tank should have been bigger. Cannot run a full 8 hours without fuel. Otherwise machine has been great. We put just over 400 hours on it so far.
:falldownlaugh:beerchug:usa
On the 570's we have at work the cabs aren't sealed well at all. Cabs are always full of dust.
ya when I washed my bc the water would come under cab and smell like an rotton sock lol and my sjs was set on high and you could move it a 1.5" and it wouldn't move so mine was slick as concrete lol that was a s650 2015
We have an M 650 bobcat since 2010. Controls are excellent especially the switch between ISO and SAE pattern. I am old school H pattern and everybody else is pilot. Good in snow with 8 foot high capacity bucket and narrow tracks.We mounted automotive rear view mirror in upper front corner of cab and convex mirrors on loader arms to improve rear visibility . When we add a larger machine to fleet ,we will go with 770 or 870. Dealer support has been excellent. Kubota engines have been bullet proof in my opinion. Yes, i would love to have a heated seat.
Bobcat no longer uses Kubota engines. They are using Bobcat/Doosan engines. 3 year warranty on the engines, but other threads on here indicate issues with these engines. I just bought a T590 with a one of the last Kubotas in December. Trying to decide if I'm buying a rubber tire skid wth the Doosan. Ran Bobcat for years, but now I'm worried.
After reading some of your posts I see you highly recommend the XHP model over the standard 297/299 model. I asked the dealer for more information on the XHP and they told me they do not bring those machines in. Said the additional hydraulic flow is a waste of money comparatively to the XPS model and runability wise there isn't a increase that makes it make sense to own. What is your take on that? Is the machine worth it for a person who does not run a mulcher?
Dealers that don't bring them in normally don't have a huge market to justify the monstrous floor plan costs associated with these expensive machines. That being said they push the stocked units they do have on hand to pedal to the public and that's the bottom line on that salesman comment. The 299XHP is in a class of its own in terms of raw HP and hydro flow. Others are coming up to their level but none match it even today. The 299 XHP massive flow rates (close to 50 GPM ) are important if you are running mulchers, power rake, wood choppers etc. they offer huge hydro flow and very fast recovery and cycle times, this is exactly why I run these tractors. I clear land, getting in , doing the work and moving to the next job as quickly as possible is my business model. No other machine currently on the market matches the speed in which I can make that happen as with the 299 XHP tractors. I also own 259D XPS machine, they flow approx 34 GPM and also are good mulchers. The 34 GPM flow rate is on par with almost every other manufacturers high flow machines. I run the disk type AFE mulchers on the 259D XPS machines. It clear trials and small plots with the 259 D XPS units. The have a smaller foot print and are a bit more delicate in certain tasks people are asking me for these days. So do you need a 299XHP ? Depends on what you are doing and if the extra money is justifiable by you. Only you can determine that. Do you want a 299 XHP, hell yes ! I love the the 299 XHP's and will sing their praises until something else matches it or surpasses it. They are pure animals in everyway and in every category. Their abilities far surpass the published specs. All of my 299 XHP are land management, steel tracked units. They can push on par with a D5 and can out work anything out on the market today with the right guy running it all things being equal. I can out lift , out push and out run hydro speaking all comers ...bar none ! I hope I addressed you're question(s) and that this information helps you in some small way. I did the best I could to provide you with facts based on real world usage instead of opinions and/or BS...lots of great machines out there today to pick from...for me it's CAT, your mileage may vary.....my 02 .... Farmer...... Love the snickers comment DH ! it's what I was thinking when I wrote it......
So Farmer when someone else has an opinion that differs from yours, theirs is BS? Yea that makes sense. Try separating yourself personally from the machine, you may find it much easier to be objective. A couple issues with your post above. The cost between an XPS and XHP is less than $5k at least here, according to my Cat salesman. So it doesn't have anything to do with Monster flooring costs. If your a CAT dealer, flooring a XHP is like flooring a 1/16 scale model of a Motor Grader. The situation is more like many buyers don't need the extra hydraulic capability, so why pay for it. The 299 is simply easier to sell and still a lot of machine for most buyers. Push with a D-5? You were just attempting to make some kind of a point right? I get the passion you have for CAT. Shimmy demoed a CASE TV380 before buying the BC. He said it didn't multifunction well. I have a TR320 and a SV300, I have rented a TV380 on several occasions when we needed another machine and I have never seen that in those machines. I am convinced the machine he ran was not set up right. I may have mentioned that but I am not going run the man down because his day or two demo didn't reflect my experience having spent many hours in them. The man runs a dirt business and came to his own conclusions after a demo. I respect that, even if I may not agree with his overall assessment. This is no different. I ran the 299 and while I liked many things about it, it wasn't rainbows and Unicorns for me as it appears to be for you. The camera works great when conditions support it, but there is zero visibility without it. I cant believe that the camera is an option and not a standard equipment. They are awkward to get into and out of and the floor height relative to the seat was awkward and uncomfortable for me after an extended period. The power was not there in the 299 compared to the TR320, which we discussed. The machine does many things well, quiet cab, EH seemed solid, the monitor set up is excellent and great ride characteristics. The machine could still be viable for my operation (in XHP dress) but I was expecting more for the money. You may not agree with me but that is ok. That's life.
No just when it's you KSSS, it seems to me to be ********, can't speak to why....but it's most certainly you..most other have my utmost respect ..he he he... A CASE huh ? That's a shame..sorry for the bad luck on that pick...better days have to be coming for you my DH friend...:Banghead I really could give a crap if I'm honest with you, and I wasn't speaking directly to you at any level ...I was attempting to answer the mans question that was directed right at me. Why you feel the need to say anything evades, eludes and mostly confounds me... But yeah , that's life and I'm cool with it, I just don't understand it.....peace brother !
I usually refrain from adding to the melee, but this kind of irks me. One thing I can always be certain of, if there is a thread asking for an opinion on a CTL, somebody will come on and say "the 299 is the biggest, baddest, best-est track loader out there." We have guys around here like that, too. Some have yellow blood, more have green. Just because a machine has a name on the side of it doesn't guarantee it's the best. That being said, if I were putting 1000+ hours per year on my skidder, I'd probably have a 299. If my 770 is shot to hell at 2000 hrs, I WILL have a 299. All these different machines have a place in the world. But, do not insinuate that others opinions are not valid because you're the only one that makes a living with one. Those kind of views are usually associated with someone who's 5' 7" and 165 pounds. Thank you, KSSS. Right back at ya. Respect is earned, not deserved, and you've never been anything but respectful.