What's the response when you role up and find your machine moved so another contractor could use it to set a pipe and then they dont have the curtousey to put it back were they found it I am about ready to pull off the job over this I didn't even get a phone call to ask it was ok
I'd be tempted to go move about 3-4 of their machines. Like 1000 feet away. When they go WTH? You say "didn't bother you to move mine without asking." Make it clear ot the GC / owner whomever is in charge it better not happen again.
If another contractor moved my machine without my permission and used it, my first call would be to the cops to report it as theft, because it is. I would also be billing the contractor for usage very heavily, and if it wasn't paid I would sue, and bill the general for it also if they said it was ok. In no way is it ever ok to use someone else's equipment without permission. How did they know there wasn't something wrong with it? Who know's what they actually did to it, even if it appears fine and was only used for a short time. I would pull out of a job if the general said it was ok to use someone else's equipment. I wouldn't want to deal with a company who operates like that.
Not exactly the same thing but I caught a customer's mechanics digging through the tools in my service truck one time. Apparently their boss said they could use them. If ever there was a time I came unglued on somebody..........
Ya, ‘borrowing’, which translates to “ it was there so I used it” . I’d be ripped. I hate borrowing other people’s stuff and avoid letting mine out. Sure favors get done but just assuming things are community property borders on theft in my book. Had a brand new Hilti hammer drill - new as in I never drilled a hole with it - we got just for a certain job . Biggest one they made IIRC was over $3k. Came in one morning, freaking sparky is banging holes with it for Redheads. Guy takes a job running pipe in a concrete tunnel and doesn’t bring a bloody hammer drill. We did all we could to make his life difficult for the rest of the job. At least have the courtesy to ask . And next time price your part to cover the equipment you need.
Its exactly the same thing that excavator is an extension of my hand like that wrench is to yours I am charging the gc for rental as if the cat dealer brought a machine out for the day and I might include delivery and pickup just because I can or we will pull off the job If they would have called I would have said ok no problem the disrespect that's what's got me wound up
I'd be thoroughly ticked off. More that they used it without permission than they didn't bring it back where it was. You don't know if they let it warm up or even knew how to properly operate it. I think charging for a rental is justified and not to touch your machine without your permission. Curious what machine it was and if you left the key in it?
It's a cat so it might as well not even have a key every one has a cat key by end of tomorrow it will have 2 kill switches hidden in it
Things like that tend to get a fellow wound up. Sid Cesar was in a cross walk and almost got hit, the car stopped-Sid reached in through the wing vent window grabbed the guy by the tie pulled the guy to the vent window and Sid asked the guy if he remembered birth. But using anything without asking shows no respect for them selves or anyone else.
Had a few people help them selves to a tool from my pouch over the years. They did not know why it made me angry as they had seen another share tools with me (a trusted partner). There is an obligation to ask permission. Tools are how I made my living and using them without my permission puts that a risk. Most jobs we did required counting all of our tools upon exiting and a borrowed and misplaced tool was a pain in the *ss to find. Nothing like a wrench resting against a buss bar to require clean shorts and it usually leads to a Spanish Inquisition. Cam
I mis-read it (it was late, I should have been in bed giggles. d ). Used to do work? I'd be like the previous poster that told the story of the guy pulling his tie thru the vent window. I would file a police report just because you can and start pursing it thru the courts enough to get their attention big time.
I have always gone by the following.. Dont lend your pickup,your powersaw or your wife and life will be good.
Or your gun or your best birddog...
So someone basically hot wired it although very easy to do on a Cat. Charge a daily rental fee and if they balk at it, say you could charge for rental the whole time the machine is on the job. It would be less frustrating than charging daily transportation to and from the jobsite because you can't trust them to stay off your machine. What happens if someone gets hurt when your machine is being used? Just wrong on all counts.
NOT a good day there, the other contractor should and would know better, if not then THEY Should pay thru the nose for abuse of a machine. Remind them that you can also take that machine to a dealer for a look over where should anything be damaged currently it would be billed to them.
Cat excavator ? Put a lock on the parking lever/ handle. The contractor committed a theft IMHO.
Our machines have keypads on them. No one outside our company knows the codes. Keeps them from being 'borrowed'. If someone used my machine without my permission, at minimum I'd be charging them full pop retail rental rate + delivery + pickup. If they refused to pay, I'd be calling the police. Theft is theft.
I unloaded a steel structure on a jobsite, and left the rigging there to set it with the next day. Next day, one of the nylon roundups is all torn up, on top of the structure. Dirt contractor "borrowed" them after we left to move some concrete structures, and put them back on the building. They had to get out a ladder and climb on top of a 10' tall building to get my straps. I asked him if he knew what happened because I had a ruined strap- only then did he did admit to using them, and he knew he tore one up, but hadn't said anything to me after ruining it. I charged them for the full set of 4 straps, plus shipping for me to get the new ones. I suspect he turned around and charged the general for them, but I don't know and I don't care. I was just glad I noticed the torn up strap, if it would have let loose on my pick, it would have been ugly. To me- it was a pretty good indicator of his character for using them, ruining one, and then not saying anything about it. Just put it back on my lift for the next day and hoped I didn't notice. That said- a lot of times on jobsites the general contractor will have a telehandler as a rental machine, and we will borrow it (with permission) to move mats or other things on the jobsite. Sometimes its some other contractor renting the machine, but I'd never use one without permission. I actually don't like borrowing tools/ equipment I don't have from someone else. I'm always worried I'll break their stuff, and not only have to fix theirs, but still end up buying my own to do the job with. If I need it more than once- I need my own.
I have been guilty. Last time I committed the crime, we arrived to pull cable into buried conduit. The excavator had filled the whole ditch, except each end. Standing either end was a hole 10' diameter, 4' deep. The pull points were 9' above. To pull cable meant setting an 8 foot ladder, and working from the top. There was never an explanation why it wasn't filled. I could go find materials to build a wooden scaffold, or fill the hole. Keys were in the excavator. Repeated attempts to reach the excavator failed. I filled the hole with a machine I didn't own. I never heard protest. Doubt the owner of the machine ever knew. His not so dependable son was the only operator on site.
We billed them a full day rental and transport in and out just on principle there office didn't even bat an eye the contractor that borrowed it is the one I am subbed to so they really dont care When I talked to the inspector that watched the circus happen that led to them narrowing my machine it's really scary these people are allowed to run a job to They 240 foot stick of pipe on 2 10k forklift and it got away from the so they stuck a 6k on the tail to steer a fitting when they tried lining up the fitting the 10 k on the other end went nose up and it all went down hill from there I could really careless if they lost there pick and blew a forklift but because they borrowed my machine no one got hurt and they will pay me But they wont do it twice that machine has 3 kill switches on it now
This thread makes me laugh---I don't borrow tools, cars, equipment or anything else. I don't count on people for anything, and trust very, very few. I don't have any friends and don't invite anyone to the house. Even at work my work is my work and everyone keeps their d!ck skinner's off my work. I only let those who work in the shop use the tools I own. I operate the equipment the company owns as if I owned it.---The fewer people around the better.
I hate to borrow, sometimes it's unavoidable. Had to borrow a friends Skytrak to replace/repair the yardlight from hell. Took it slow and easy on the road (3 miles) put $30 worth of fuel in, unhooked the man basket and put the machine exactly where it was when I got it. He bitched me out for filling it up with fuel......lol. Ed
No excuse to borrow someone's equipment on a jobsite without asking. We may do something for another trade or GC but we operate our equipment - no one is allowed to borrow. The problem with other trades is they all run equipment like it's a rental. Our equipment puts food on our table.
One time I had to use a machine without asking. I went to do an inspection on a log loader that was up a steep section of logging road. The owners told me they were moving the machine that day and if I got there at a certain time, the lowboy would be coming down the road and I could follow them to the next unloading point. When I got to the base of the hill there was a shovel parked off to the side and it had been sitting there a long time. Something was familiar about it but I didn't give it much. About a half a mile up the hill there was the empty lowboy stuck in the middle of a sharp curve with the back half in the ditch. The truck had spun out and that was it. The only way out was to lift the trailer back onto the road and have the truck back down the hill. The shovel I was sent to get was a good four miles up the road heading for us. It would take another hour and a half for it to get there so I asked who owned the shovel at the bottom of the hill. It turned out it was a low life that declared bankruptcy on me two year earlier and then hid some property from the creditors. Once I heard that news, it was open season. I went and jumped the machine to get it started and then headed up the hill and retrieved the trailer. I had to shepherd the trailer down the hill but got things in order and put the machine back in place. I knew that the owner of the shovel was never going to say anything to me even if he found out. I was real tempted to call the bankruptcy judge and let him know where the machine was. The fellas that owned the lowboy called my boss and thanked him for the good will and initiative to get things going. At any other time with any other owner, I wouldn't have touched that machine. Sometimes, life does have ways to even things out just a little.
I did it once, not proud of it, but I was very careful, checked it over before I started it, offered to pay the owner later. I was about 10 miles in the woods in the pre cell phone days, on a cold Saturday afternoon. Got my service truck stuck in a huge stump hole. Nobody knew where I was, so I started walking out. About a mile down what I guessed was the shortest route out, I saw a Hydro-ax on a log deck, so, I borrowed that one. I went Monday and offered to pay, or grease it, or something and got laughed at.
Only machine I ever 'Borrowed' I called first to ask if could rent it, guy was too easy said have at it so I added fuel and made some small adjustments that he later thanked me for. Borrow is not a typical aspect for me tools or otherwise.
My friend with the skytrak farms our property, he knows my shop is open because stuff breaks. Go in and help yourself...call if you can't find it, whatever you need is there somewhere. What comes around goes around, sometimes in a good way. Ed
The only thing I can think of that I have used without asking is aerial lift equipment. For some reason there is sort of an unwritten rule on jobsites that if a contractor isn't on site their lifts and ladders are fair game. I do always put them back and plug them in at the end of the day though. There are a couple manufacturing plants I do a lot of work in that I pretty much use their tools/forklifts/welders/whatever as if they were mine, but thats different I guess.
I think before someone gets sideways with "theft" when someone uses your piece of equipment, you may want to educate yourself on theft. There must be an effort to Permanently deprive the owner of the property. "Borrowing it" and it never leaves the job site, pretty hard to show that the intention was to deprive the owner of the equipment, unless they were loading on a Conex box while on the job site, shipping it Mexico. Using the machine onsite is the legal equivalent of "joy riding", still illegal. However it is a misd. not a felony like equipment theft. State laws can vary, this may not apply to every single State, but it is the rule rather than the exception.
So the church I went to as a kid puts on addition. One of the members is a partner with his couple brothers in a big excavation company. His uncle is the president. They do the site work at the church. His kid who does a lot of their restoration work is on site on a Friday. He sees a rental skytrack in the parking lot and thinks my neighbor needs help trimming a big tree. You can see where this is going. So he gets it home and turns into his driveway. So he's used to hauling a small Kubota landscape tractor. Cuts the drive a bit sort and flops it over it's side. Well he needs dads help to right it so he has to fess up. His uncle calls the rental comapny and offers to repair it. Rental company says it doesn't work that way. It's damaged and we're not going to be returning it to the fleet, you get to buy us a new one. But But But. No buts sir, you buy us a new one or we will be filing charges. Well they didn't want to file an insurance claim, if they even could?, so uncle forked over $80,000 for a new one. The family holiday parties were a bit awkward for junior for quite a while. True story, no stretching of the facts, my cousin married the company's real estate broker and the incident was a topic at a few of our holiday parties. . 3 of my cousins owned a commercial industrial painting company, I worked for them 3 summers going to college so there were lots of war stories told when we got together
I don't know. I had a truck mechanic/fabricator do an extensive job converting a fire truck to a dump. The last piece of residue was the massive fire pump. I needed to haul it away. He's located out in the tikki weeds 6 miles from me. No land phone, no cell service. I've made a few trips hoping to catch him there. When he isn't there, there is a good chance he's underground in the marble quarry. I texted him yesterday, hoping he could say when he'd be there, or would he give permission to use his crane? Hours later, I had a window of time, I headed up there. No sign of him. I tried the forklift, It only lifts 5' I used a 15 ton rubber tired crane. I've heard no protests.
Hope that crane didn't have something wrong with it you didn't know about. You could have made a little repair into a big one.
I know, but he uses it often, keys were in it. I checked engine oil. Some concessions must be made because of the brevity of human life. I couldn't keep travelling up there hoping to catch him. He works seven days, but in the shop is now & then. He can't readily predict his schedule. I considered hauling a backhoe up. That didn't seem to make sense.
There are people that are allowed to use my equipment a few of them can grab and go but that's not a long list In reality I couldn't really care that they used my machine to do what they did cause my beef is not about money they are paying me for there excursions it's that no where was it discussed that they would need it to set pipe and no care was given let alone check the oil I have used things without asking in a pinch but I will leave it full of fuel and grease it if it's more than 5 minutes and its put back the way I found it and follow up with a phone call it's just respect I think the thing that burns me most on this whole subject is on a job when someone borrowed your iron its because of there lack of planning and they beg there way thru 100 dollar favors and hey man it's no big deal no it's big deal your just not professional enough to manage your job
Key word respect They made money and time they did not alot for by using your machine They need to pay the rate or at least offer to pay out of respect Judging by actions they will not be around long on their own poor performance
I’m guilty. Got sent to look at a knuckle boom crane one Friday afternoon. It had been raining all day and it was downhill to the crane. Slid my service truck into the yard where I cut the wheel, gave it some throttle and slid the ass end around so I was pointed back out and there I was. Stuck. Walked over and found the keys in the ignition of a Deere skidder. Hooked a chain in between the two and pulled myself back to the main logging road. It was a bit crude. I didn’t dare release the parking brake for fear that if the chain came unhooked my truck would roll into the crane. Saw the owner the next week and told him. He shrugged his shoulders and said “ that’s why I leave the keys in them”.
The benefits of CAT security systems I guess because your not taking off it one lol but if anyone did “Borrow” any of my equipment I’d come unglued on them. It’s just way to easy for anything to happen and 99% of the guys never fess up to tearing it up. Been thr and done that to many times and spent way to much money fixing rude idiots mistakes so I go with a 100% no loan attitude unless we’re around to supervise and if I need something myself I’ll go rent/buy one.
Where I work was letting some other crew store road base and what have you on our site, I had to leave my loader up at the crusher so they could use it at night. Fortunately it was only for a while. But the guy who drove it was a midget and A: pulled the seat way forward but worse B: left the steering wheel angled down. Plus as I didn't know who used it I couldn't collect any refuse left in the cab and shove it up their car's exhaust with a stick..
One of my pet peeves as well, if somebody uses my truck or whatever and the seat, steering wheel and mirrors are all left adjusted for him. If I do that I will do my best to leave all that stuff where it is for the other guy, or if I have to adjust it, put it back when done.
Every time I take my truck for a service the seat is moved. All they have to do is drive it in and out. Had a friend who had a repair shop and he said you only move the seat in extreme cases if the driver is either very short or very tall but 99% of the time you don't adjust anything with the driving position.
Yeah people always fiddle with stuff interior wise when borrowing. But there is the other side of driving a rig into the shop for repairs you fellows left out. {Getting in and setting in a truck seat that's jacked to the roof because the lard *** that drives it weighs 300 to 3000 lbs. Then you wait-growing a beard in the process while the air slowly hisses away before the seat finally drops. Then crank the **** out of the moto mirrors, adjust the steering wheel move the swinging crap on bungee cords out of the way, And last but not least wipe the steering wheel down to remove boogers, pop, coffee and the dippin sauce for his BBQ'ed corn dogs. Plus all his other filthy germs he has spread all over the cab. And this same jacka$$ wants you to work in the pi$$mire he has created to repair dash switches, heater controls and what have you.} Now the main reason to be upset with people borrowing your equipment-Is the fact the person operating it is probably a prolific F@rter . He will jump at the chance to pump the seat full of f@rts, causing many lumps in the lower cushion. Which will cause the owner much discomfort and throw his back out.
I started my career working in truck shops. The things you see, smell, and discover in customers trucks could be its own thread.
The dreaded flatulent Freightliner fever.
It's all that dippin sauce that probably does it, some buy it by the five gallon bucket set it on the floor and use a long straw. I came up with an idea a ways back called the swinging chicken. Just a fancy bungee attached to the roof to hang a three pound roaster chicken from. Turn to the right the chicken swings left and the driver takes a bite, turn to the left the chicken swings right and the co-driver takes a bite and two straws in the five gallon bucket of dippin sauce..
Had a damn nasty driver referred to as Pig Pen, Short WB Tandem Freightliners, exhaust stack in a reversed corner of the cab on a bell connector to the exhaust pipe they were so short, brought his truck in one day said needed service and a new mattress, Foreskin said OK so sent wash boy out to it. He came back in said the floor was moving, so the district manager took a look and yes there were bugs of all variety, LIVE, IN the truck, worse than a trash compactor so called a exterminator service to gas the cab. That took three days to get under control as to cleaning it to access it to fix it. Three months later and he STILL driving, he brings it back, wash boy looks inside seems kinda clean but odorous, goes to jack the cab to wash the engine to reveal a oil leak spot, cab clears shift tower floating panel, gets about to 20 degrees hear rolling noise then TINK TINK SMASH, bottle of urine hits the floor. Pig Pen no longer worked there ever again. We took the entire interior out, dumpstered it, tilted cab full over and pressure washed the INSIDE, just nasty.
I don't know with the way people and things are today-that alone should cause a person to pause about borrowing anything.
Y'all can laugh, I found the specs I wrote down on the Frt Shkr Cabovers we had. 350Cummins, Jakes, 13 speed single over RTO 9513 on Rockwell SQHPs, 24.5 rubber and a WHOPPING 142" WB, Twin Round 80 gallon tanks and still no room for quarter fenders.
Hell!!! My son is 6'3", I was 5'9" before the spinal discs lost their fluid. If he moves my truck a foot he readjusts my seat, steering wheel, and mirrors. Me bitching only encourages him. Therefore, I take great pleasure in taking his analog truck, and readjusting mirrors for me, and seat slammed as close to the steering wheel as possible. Some might label it passive aggression. I also pick up his trash from the driveway, toss it into his truck.
Wife does that for me, no matter what she gets in the steering wheel is lap tight seat full forward and mirrors a mess. Worked in a shop on a lot of customer equipment, left all the adjustments as they were and dealt with it. Never the less a few would get in and readjust EVERYTHING as if I had moved them.
I’ve heard stories of the truck shops especially of drivers cutting holes in the floor to **** through Nastiest thing I’ve seen is a bottle of rotten milk in a cab (top came off and spilled everywhere I about puked and fell out of the cab I also would love to know why operators with nice air conditioned and pressurized cabs leave the doors and windows wide open to collect a couple inches of dirt in the cab
Drive down any freeway after work shuts down and see how many leave the machine with the windows up and the door open all night long and over the weekends. A rotten sandwich behind the seat and now there are rodents forever.
In an earlier time when dairy farms were common one farmer was proud of his practical jokes. He had a friend who he traded unspeakable atrocities with. I deliberately avoided involvement. Weeks after working on his farm one winter day I started noticing an unpleasant odor. I looked for the source, but passed it off as a spilled cup of coffee with cream. Next warm day, I couldn't ignore it any longer. That's when I discovered a denim coat under the passenger seat of my van. I had assumed it was my father's coat. On closer inspection, it wasn't my father's. It was rolled around a cow placenta.
That's really gross.
That farmer had been out behind the barn too long, or in the basement a little too long with grampa-The farmer in the dell-the farmer in the dell-hi ho the mary'o the farmer in the dell.
I did NOT work there again after that.
A buddy and myself hit a jack rabbit one night. So we tossed it in the back seat of another friends work car, 4 door chevy. well it was the middle of winter so that stupid rabbit never thawed out. Rode around back there for a month before his can of chew rolled back there. he did get a surprise when he got a hand full of fur while trying to retrieve the can while driving. lol.
When my brother as young, he saw a possum run across the road and on a whim, decided to run it down. His best friend comes along in a brand-new Datsun pickup, sees his truck in the road with the door open, and stops. Mike comes out of the woods carrying the possum and throws it through the drivers window of the NEW TRUCK! The possum decides playing dead isn't working and scrambles up under the dash. The possum had only eaten a few wires and been to the bathroom a few times when he got him out 4 days later.
Electrician at the nuke, small fella like 6'4ish, 250 lbs mostly muscle, hands like hams, bellowing voice anyone could hear above the wailing machinery, gentle as a lamb was also a taxidermy trainee. He once worked line crew in ESL IL where had the line truck stop on a highway so could retrieve a Skunk he later had stuffed and denatured enough to display in his home. Drove a Chevy Chevette, four door for YEARS where had mechanics help him remount the driver seat so he was not excessively cramped. Long story longer and MORE Boring, he spots a Bobcat on a county road, been hit by something grabs it up throws in his backseat. A few miles down the road he swears he hears a breathing noise stops car and bails out damn near took a foot off getting thru the door, looks in back seat and Bobcat is still dead, said HE was breathing like he was gonna hyperventilate. That cat adorned his cathedral ceiling Living room wall for close to fifteen years until Keith died. Ironically he was cleaning a Red Fox carcass, got a small cut from a jagged bone, developed sepsis and passed away in three weeks.
So back to borrowing equipment. I'm the project engineer on a local non-motorized trail project. We are adding a 10 foot wide asphalt path 6 feet behind a curb and gutter roadway. About 1/2 mile we are removing the paved shoulder , adding curb and placing the path 6 feet behind the new curb. That's a bit unusual but we are in the Grand River floodplain and it's all wetlands. The other half mile it's behind an existing curb. The paving contractor is demoing a brand new LeeBoy paver so things didn't get off to a good start. It's not good when the sales rep and one of their mechanics are reading the operators manual This is the last phase of a 10 year project to connect 2 big trails. The White Pine and the Musketawa if your from MI. 200-250 miles total so I'm there to get photos of the big event. The trail follows the ground more than the road and the second 5 axle straight truck live bottom goes "down the bank" and I hold my breath, I half suspected it to lay over on its side. Later I look at it and theres something wrong with the suspension, definitely has a list to the right. So I stop by on my way home about 5. Since they frogged around with the demo paver, it's going to get late for my assistant doing the onsite inspection. I drive up and an 8-axle live bottom semi trailer (50 tons of asphalt) had gotten too far over, has the right side of the tractor off the gravel and has spun his tires so the right tandem axles are on the ground. So I pull into an adjacent parking lot. As I'm waiting, a nice new D6 comes up the path and the asphalt guys are hooking chains to the front of the truck. It only spins in the gravel. So the "operator" pulls forward a bit , backs up fast and tries to jerk it. I look around and I don't see any of the prime contractor's employees or foreman around. H'mm. I jump out and go right to the paving company's honcho who's been there for the demo. I asked "is that the contractor's employee running the dozer?" I knew the answer the way he was jerking n the truck "No". Me "do you have permission from the contractor?" "No" That lit me off. I go ballistic. All the while, they are re-hooking the chains. I screamed at him "You are done, the job is shut down". He just stares at me so I go over to the dozer, get in the operators sight and keep giving him the shut down gestures. I go back to the boss and said, do you understand, this job is shut down until you get a rotator here to get the truck and trailer out?" At that point everyone is looking at the grumpy old man. I asked my assistant if he saw me lose my cool. He laughed and said, I was standing right next to you. I've never seen you that mad before. Now keep in mind this isn't a driveway paver, this is a big company that should know better. And the honcho has been in the business for 40+ years. My assistant called the prime contractors foreman to let him know what happened. I did get a call from his boss and a follow up email thanking me for stepping up and shutting them down. I've been in this game for 47 years with our county highway department and have never observed something like this happen.
All too many are into the shortcut mode these days, compensating for lack of talent or available talent or the finances to hire the RIGHT Talent to do the jobs right, almost to the very sad state things were decades ago when really followed as had no rules.
Alot---------------------------A-Lack-Of-Talent
Nobody wants to pay for talent. They would rather roll the dice and take a chance with lesser experienced people.
Correct-the boss on the golf coarse spends 9 holes bitching about his hired help then gets pissed a throws his 7 iron in the lake because he misses ALOT-A-Lack-Of-Talent.
Lack of talent is one thing laziness to do things right and hold high standards starts at the top 8 out of 10 buissness owners are in it for title and clout not because it's there trade dont get me wrong good help doesnt exist right now but if we still had tradesmen it would make a difference
But a person can grow the talent if he wasn't so lazy also.
I see it in the age group I am in leaving the trades, those following are Book Smart and technology savvy yet fail to accept lessons already learned of the 'Old Guys and Gals' that have seen the onslaught from hard mechanical to now. Even being out of the trade for over two decades I see uselessness in many shops I have had to deal with from the perspective of a Driver not owner of a truck. Diagnostics is big money where when the machine I was driving was failing I knew it and got it to a shop, Told them what was wrong and was challenged for being mechanically understanding enough to diagnose. Then the A-holes quoted MY diagnosis to the word on their 2.5 hour charge justification and determined the differential needed to come out a DAY LATER after I already informed was TOAST. They later dropped that to a half hour, time to get it in and out of a bay. When engine sensors were failed and failing as the Shop I took it to placed it on a Laptop I saw the sensors NOT reading(OOR Hi or Lo) and the tech was ignoring them. Explained to the foreman what I saw and he changed the charges as unwarranted diagnosis time, tech was NEW. Also got offered a Job. Had the machine fixed in less than two days for fried sensors(Owner had a welder fix a cracked bracket on the engine, did NOT disconnect Batteries). As Paul noted, people are spending LARGE Coin for absolutely crap work and is the typical any longer. Will destroy the industry if not addressed and the High Roller wannabe's managing these shops will remain wannabe's with no cash just high roller "Alot" failures.
It's all about the----------Greed.
I'm thinking of starting a business of bailing out parts changers. my diagnosis fee would be 20% of what they spent before I got there.
Paul I wouldn't say "nobody". Currently we are having a hard time finding general laborers with NO experience who are willing to show up, half ass work and just maybe learn something we are more than willing to teach them along the way. Our starting pay for very green laborers is $5 more per hour (with benefits) than the fast food joints. Luckily for our operation we have damn good talent that I've worked with for years which we pay good money because they earn it, day in and day out. We are all around the same age so we're going to ride this until retirement - God help the next generation.
I don't doubt that for one second. That's the other side of the double edged sword. One side is management wanting to cut costs in the wrong places The other side is employees wanting the big money, but not willing to put in any sweat equity or sacrifice to get that big money.
But there only a few industries and few businesses that haven't moved their standards back for hiring. Can I Borrow A Mechanic, Welder, Operator and does he do the dishes too.
About the only move further back can go now is skid row junkies that crap themselves all the time!!
That reminds me of this story: When I was young, the owner of a sand, gravel, Asphalt pavement plant was involved in a half dozen other businesses. He was well known for his wealth. Also, he was well known for his drunken antics. He, with friends were owners of a remote deer camp surrounded by National Forest. At some point he came upon a large bulldozer belonging to a logger near the camp. He hotwired, or found a key, and built a mile long road through forest over a weekend. When it was discovered, several people representing Federal property, and the owner of the machine were livid. To the best of my knowledge, nothing much ever came of it. Rich people are exempt from the rules governing poor people.
Talent is worth exactly as much as fart. Aptitude is valuable, then skill is developed over time. A kid might be a good mechanic, 20 years later that kid might be great. With the guidance of the right teachers, he or she will be remarkable. God gives aptitude, skill gets earned. There is no substitute.
I think it makes a difference if the individual actually wants to learn the job and all it entails. I think too many just want the big pay cheque without having to put much effort into learning the job. I know with the lack of people being interested in the trades the apprenticeship board is a lot more lax on requirements to get in and the hours required to become a journeyman.
Normally I would let that idea go-But after spending my youth growing up around a father that belittled every G@D D*mn thing I did-TALENT is everything. He ran a sign shop and I worked in it to help him out, He couldn't stand the fact that I WAS 100 times the freehand sign painter he was or would ever be. Just one damn time he could have said {that's real nice work}. Now for the sharp end-Below is my work and I'm real proud of my talent-------------------You Either Have it Or You Don't-simple as that.
Men are not lead onto the job by people that no what there doing in this industry as a whole most guys I work around have less than 10 years experience and the vast majority have less than 2 years at that trade It's not that they dont work it's that they have no concept of what work is and when the boss man is qualified because he has almost 3 years in it doesnt leave much hope practical trade experiences take a good 5 years to accumulate and more time for experience to teach applied short cuts fixes or efficiency But over all look at the leadership of any business today that has more than 15 employees it's not leadership you cant teach what you dont know and you cant apply what you have not experienced yourself we live in a world of highly educated engineers and just as highly educated construction managers but none have trade experience and more so with the management you cant organize a lay down yard for delivery if you have no idea what material is and the volume let alone organize the job and then stack trades on top of eachother with no room to work it's like just cause your computer schedule says you can do it doesnt mean it works But they cant lead men and most crew foreman's these days have any ability to inspire people to sharpen there skills some of the best guys I work around are highly competitive and we push eachother and us younger guys push eachother harder it makes us better Work will have to slow down before this gets any better the labor market is stretched to thin
That is really nice. That’s real talent. Anyone can learn mechanics, but that’s a true gift from God.
TS has More talent in one hand than I have in ALL my skills levels, I can make it work, can even see it in my minds eye when completed but his artistic power is a True Gift.
My phone is always ringing for work.I get one job for a month and im out of the market. The chance of finding someone younger that has drive to work and learn seems so remote.I spent the morning moving the 75 ton to the new site ,between me ,lowbed guy and 2 pilot drivers there was a lot of grey hair. Came back to the shop finished machining some lifting rigging for the sectional barge,load tested them and then finished loading crane mats on mondays stepdeck load. Couldnt get anyone to work . Its good work and lots of it ,but how do you find guys to carry it on? Id like to step back and just make sure every thing is ready and send them to work.
Sometimes the hardest part is finding what you're good at and like doing. Some people are pushed into jobs because that's what they're parents did or want them to do. Some of the time they just aren't the right fit for that job. Nothing is more frustrating than trying to do a job that doesn't fit you. Truck shop is an awesome artist. Some people have trouble drawing a stick man so put them in a job having to free hand draw they will absolutely hate it. Put that same person in a skid steer doing finish grading and they might excel at it because they have an eye for it. Other people are really good at certain things but hate doing them. For most people it's finding a balance and the real lucky ones discover their true calling early on.
The problem is that if i work 7-5 or 7-9 that two extra hours still wont allow me to live the life my parents or grandparents lived. But going home that two hours earlier lets me see my little boy every night before he goes to bed and saying no to working weekends lets me take him four wheeling. So you can sure bet im gonna say no when the boss wants extra. Pay peanuts expect monkeys. I am definitely not a monkey but i can sure act like one. When you make a dollar i make a dime thats why i poo on company time.
Ok, I'm gonna get on one of my pet hobby horses, y'all can just ride along: Some years back the educational establishment decided that one of the worst problems we had was low self-esteem. People about 30 yrs old and younger have spent their whole lives with people telling them they are absolutely fantastic. When my son was 14 (he's 30 now) he called me into the shop to show me what he had done. He had drilled some holes with the drill press. He had used an inappropriate bit, and had drilled into the table. I told him I was very glad he was showing some interest, but he needed to let me show him how before he did anything with the machine tools, and told him what he did wrong. He was absolutely horrified, and actually told me I shouldn't tell him he did it wrong, but should just congratulate him for doing anything. I said who told you that BS? He said the school did. If you never believe you can do anything wrong you never learn. Then, they get to work and are upset that we would think they don't already know everything.
So has there ever been an employee that didn't think the owner was ripping them off no pun intended here but what do people expect to get paid and where do they think that money comes from
I've been giving this thread a lot of thought. Decided I have no reason to add anything. The problem isn't mine anymore. No one around me does what I do and really no one wants to do what I do. Suits me fine. The dealers can't find anyone who knows what to look for in a machine, so they call me. I wrote a book about what to look for. I gave it to a couple of dealers and said make a guy read the book and have him do the inspections on your payroll. I'll work with people to train them but it will cost what it's worth. They still use me. As far as I'm concerned, the system is working fine. I have another book I'm working on about how to put a value to something. This one is for the boys in the office wearing fancy clothes. I'm seeing and hearing about the same problems there. Attitudes and laziness. Companies go out of business because of that.
I just have to face the fact that no one wants to do what id either i guess. Then the next thing i need to learn is how to say no.Might be room to have a life then.
This year up until the end of june me and dad worked about every saturday cause that's what was needed however July through September I worked 3 Saturdays for hire and only another 4 turning wrenches It's been completely different saying no and most customers just say ok
Must be why i'm safe, i'm 31! I know I got lucky as far as starting to work for my dad at 12, evenings, weekends, summers, etc and learned that way instead of school. It was pathetic a lot of time, at 14 I had a better work ethic then many decades older then me, and by 18 as far as concrete was concerned knew more then a heck of a lot of them too. It really is sad how many have no concept of real work, I really think only a small part is age. I see just as many 40-50 year olds who are lazy and cannot do the most basic things as I do the young ones. The part that pisses me off the most is how many think just because you're doing well, it's because you got a hand out from someone, couldn't be because you worked hard for it.
I stand corrected? I offer my apology, which I suppose is worth a great deal less than your talent.
Accepted.
When your young you have enthusiasm and ability to really suck up the knowledge. At 14 i started working for the summers in a logging camp,i never wanted to come home .My high school shop teacher noticed my proficiency in welding ,gave the phone no. for the local college welding class. I paid for 2 weeks in there and challenged the DPW #3 welding ticket,passed and was ticketed before graduation. . Now they hold everyones hand thru school mostly feeding them nonsense. A young guy here cant even get a fully functioning drivers licence before hes about 20. I had friends that were driving gravel trucks soon after thier learners at 16. We were allowed to go as far as our ambitions and abilities would take us. Now theres an age limit or ticket you have to spend 6mo.s in costly school to even start. By that time your still lost at 25 .
Are you sure we didn't have the same father..? Mine was exactly the same. The only reason I know he was proud of how I turned out is that he would tell other people and that word eventually got back to me. As for telling me himself - never happened.
All my own ever did for me was YELL at me. Sounds all too familiar.
My dad died when I was about 12, since he didn't have much time to yell at me that was handled in military basic training.
Had that latter as well.
I always heard it as L.O.F.T. - lack of f@#-+$&* talent.
Charley was a first sargent master, went in the army in 1934 left the army in 1946-pissed from sun up to sun down 24-7. I lived around that for 26 years.
At my father's funeral I spoke. It is very rare for me to say anything in public. That day I felt I had to. My words: "My father never said he loved me. He didn't have to say it, I knew. I never said I loved him. On this occasion, I pray that he knew." That was 20 years ago. Still not a day goes by I don't think of him in a pleasant memory. A good man, respected by all those who knew him well.
I had the privilege of working with my father from age 7 till 29. I ran the tractor on the baler, it had a hand clutch that I had to use my knee to help engage it. The tractor had high fenders, because my dad knew I would fall asleep. Just about every afternoon he would have to jump off the rack wake me up and get me back on the row. After school I hurried home changed clothes and was out helping, sometime hindering. We had livestock so you worked everyday, they needed to be fed. On the coldest days you spent most of it trying to get the tractors started and working on cattle waters that were frozen. I wouldn't change a thing, you see I was blessed to be so close to my father. He taught me how to work, and work for what you got!
I think I was 12 when I got to run the skidsteer alone for the first time, and 14-15 driving pickup on private property, and one time at 15 I got to drive alone to go fill up wheelbarrow tire, it was me go, or trust me when concrete showed up as none of the other guys my dad had at that time drove. It's amazing how much in the last 10-15 years people have got lazy. There use to be no such thing as pumping concrete for driveways, etc, and digging by hand was no big deal. I remember digging out to replace weeping tile around a house, 2 days straight of just digging. To try and find people to do that now is virtually impossible, to even find someone willing to dig for an hour or so is like your asking for a kidney. I mean I wouldn't be caught dead doing that kind of labour now, well actually with my shoulder I couldn't, I can do 1-2 hours digging in a day tops before i'm done, but I would never do it anymore because my time is way too valuable anyway. But for a 20 year old or so, there is no reason you can't do that. Sisters friend's kid is 18 and wanted a summer job, some people just aren't made for trades. First he tried working for my dad, who at 71 and very tough to work for and explains things, to be blunt like crap. But then he tried with my brother and his guys who are mostly 20-early 30's and did no better. I bet 5 different guys tried showing him how to pound a nail, couldn't figure it out. He had to be shown how to properly push a broom. The only thing he was capable of was pushing a wheelbarrow. Sad really, nice enough kid but not the sharpest crayon, trades is definitely the best bet but unless he learns how to hustle and put a lot more effort in, will likely be nothing more then a labourer. And there's millions just like him. Math skills are good for about 2+2 and that's about it.
I know a number of less than sharpest tool in the shed or crayon in the box. Many cannot find the shed or that crayon box.
Unfortunately I think this is a very common problem today
Have to note, the Grand Niece's 'Boyfriend' live in she just went to AZ with is Ex USAF. Spent three plus Years in the Active Service, never made E-3, "Lack Of ******G Talent" was all I could figure as the Service generally makes a home for those that have ANY form of Talent.
Oh, the irony.
And I guess I'm going to be the contrarian, I know some young guys that are go getters. I've got a great group of guys working for me. They can really make things happen. My son is in his second year of trade school and is looking at carpentering. I have guys calling me looking for work. I've got a young guy hired at work, and he's green as grass, but he's trying everyday, remember, we were all young once. I think he's going to make a good employee. I'm fortunate that I learned a lot of things from older guys, and I hope the young guys are learning something from my mistakes. I certainly make enough of them, they've got plenty of opportunity to see them. Someone was doing what I do, before I came along. I really enjoy what I do, and hope to do it for a lot longer, but to be honest- someone is going to do it after I'm gone. The work somehow gets done all over this country, every day. Look at all the guys on this forum, that are getting things done everyday. And for you guys that had a bad relationship with your fathers, I'm so sorry. I don't talk to mine often enough, and he's been really cooped up with the covid going around.
Same here CraneOp. My dad taught me either directly or indirectly what I know today. He currently lives in Costa Rica so I don't get to see him in person often. My mom passed in April of 2018. What I would give to talk to her again.
Does anyone even get that there are ****** fathers out there-there everywhere.
I wont dig by hand and fight rocks day in and day out anymore. I did it for a good few years and now back has a hard time most days and i am only 30. I look at my father who lived a hard life and now at 65 and retired finally has the time and money to do what he wants but the body has a hard time dealing with it. I dont want that or wish it on anyone and the way i see it maybe kids are getting smarter and realizing that its not worth selling your health and the best years of your life for a low wage that really wont get them anywhere.
Well there's a few differences, I don't need to do manual labour anymore. If someone has no skills or knowledge, what else are they going to do? They better not be lazy if they want to go anywhere. My time is way too valuable to spend it on the end of a shovel. I did it for years and was smart so I no longer have to do it. Frankly by 40 I don't see myself even running equipment much anymore if things go well.
Well this thread has turned a corner. My Dad hard a hard upbringing, but managed not to take it out on me. I didn’t know much but work from 13 (work and education, obviously) and it wasn’t Dad who put me down, it was people I worked with. As an old fart, I’ve learned to be patient with youngsters, as long as they’re trying. They all learn differently, and the ones who learn too quickly often stop learning just as quickly. It’s easy to have a downer on youngsters, but there’s a lot of older guys who don’t have a clue how to handle them or teach them, lack patience, or can’t keep their own egos out of things.
A lot of older guys want the young guys to figure it out on their own. In some cases if a younger guy seems pretty bright the older guys feel threatened that the young guy is there to take their job. I always tried to help apprentices and thought it was a compliment when they asked for my help. Many times apprentices have said they liked working with me because I'd explain things better instead of just telling them what to do. Very rarely did I have problems with apprentices. One in particular was guy who just got out of school and figured he knew it all and was going to set the world on fire. He figured he was going to show me. I kind of ignored him and let him do his thing. He made some rookie mistakes but I had to bring him back to reality before he made a major screwup that would have been costly to repair. He was humbled by it and realized he should have paid more attention to me.
To me, attitude comes first. If a young person has an acceptable attitude I can give him something that will improve his life. I don't discriminate against girls, never had one wander into my world. I got sons! Two share my DNA. Each had an entourage. Home base was my home, or maybe Mrs. B's home. My theory has always been they like my toys. I bet most would say it was a mother figure who measured up to Mrs. B. Nobody is hopeless, unless they believe it is hopeless. A person has to suffer from severe disability if they can't learn. It is common to "refuse to learn". I see that as an obstacle we must find a way around. I've met only a very few lazy young people, most of them are NOT lazy. They are only angry. I am immensely proud of several young men who have passed many times through my dinner table. I'm even more proud of the women they attracted & married. The only exception is a perfect couple who haven't yet married. Soon, all Hell will descend on him. He will marry that young lady, or die. Yes, Mrs. B & I have gotten her approval. Several young men & women will make it happen. There will soon be a marriage. I'm a Justice of The Peace. I can do the deed spur of the moment. If he insists on a religious ceremony, I can oblige. Or, with a weeks notice I will arrange an ordained minister. That young lady is not going to slip from his grasp!
If you people want to talk about mothers, I got comments! My dad was a good guy, thinking back I had a chance to improve his life, but didn't. I was an adolescent son. I still grieve that I didn't do what I could to spare him the life he lived. She was cruel!
It’s getting stupid over here, until you’re 16 you can deliver leaflets or magazines, but that’s about it. At 16 you’re limited what you can do as a part-time job, so there isn’t the opportunity to work on the land or horticulture which was where a lot of us cut our operating teeth. I sneaked my boy in and let him operate a forklift and excavator a couple of times, but he doesn’t seem to have caught the bug. Even attitude I can deal with - I have one myself, apparently.
Not going into details, as it’s too personal, but I didn’t bump along with Mum too well until a few weeks before she died of cancer. She became a Christian at the end and all that had gone before was forgotten. End of the day, they’re always our parents. You show me a parent or child that got everything right and I’ll show you a liar.
I'll show you Mrs. B. No lie, just fact.
I had great parents that took an interest in what I did and never pushed me to do something I didn't want to do. My dad always said do the best you can. I played hockey and lacrosse and my dad coached hockey and sponsored my brothers and my teams. When we won the provincial championship for Lacrosse and went to the nationals my dad got team jackets for everybody. In hockey he always had a year end banquet and bought every player a new stick and gave them a trophy made with a hockey puck. I asked him once if anybody else ever helped pay and he said only one other parent did. He was the first coach in our city to have his coaching Canada certificate. Everybody got equal ice time and no favorites. What was really sad was the other kids who's parent never even bothered to come to any games. A friend who was really good came with us 95% of the time. That had to have a big effect on him.
I could say that about my wife, but if you ask her, she’ll say she’s got a lot of things wrong. Some get it righter than others, but we could all do better.
My mom wound up with only one oar in the water in her later years which was very painful for my wife and I. We were trying to make her "golden years" as carefree and enjoyable as possible. My wife is an RN and my mom wanted her to manage all of her medications, later on she accused her of trying to poison her. I got accused of trying to steal her money after she asked me to manage her little nest egg. And on and on. Inspite of the emotional abuse we always did our duty for her.
Sometimes you can’t win, but you keep going with them anyway.
A little bit of dementia can make people think everyone is out to get them or stealing from them. Making sure they eat properly and just being there for them makes a big difference. On their good days they'll appreciate it.