Not bashin Union hands in Illinois, but I am guessing that most highway jobs out there are union. Just razzin ya a little seems like every dozer I went by had gps and not too sure about it have just ran d 11s with CAES systems but it looks like since they had the sensors on the blade that it was some sort of automatic blade control. Doesn't anyone out there have a bubble in their butt.
First off, union or not don't matter. We don't need to go there. Second, There is a huge difference between being an all around operator and having GPS. I have a guy that is one of the best dozer operators I have had the pleasure to work with. He has the bubble in his rear end fine tuned. For a few years he has been saying how he don't want anything to do with the GPS. He got on the D-8T with GPS a couple of weeks ago. Now I can't pry him off of it. He is so happy to know where grade is no matter where he goes on the job. Now he can finish an area, move on and not have to wait for someone to check grade or anything. Just go to pushing whatever is needed. The automatics are only for the final pass anyway. you still have to get it close first, but you hava a picture in the cab with you to get it there without wasted time and effort. With wages where they are on public works jobs, you have to get every bit of production out of the employees time, and the GPS helps with that.
Yeah I wasn't trying to start a huge fight. We have CAES systems on our productions dozers, and its funny how some operators especially the ones that havent ran a dozer withoutone dont have a clue if they are close to grade or not if their gps isnt working. I have been guilty of using that damn screen too much and not using the bubble in my butt when grounding for a dragline. The jobs I saw were mainly interstate jobs doin slope work on medians so they would probably work good for that. Just dont see much of that around here yet but I guess the expense of it is probably cheaper in the long run that wearing a bunch of dirt out and having a couple stake jumpers. Not totally against all unions just some of them.
I hear you about the operators who can't do it without the GPS. I had one guy who would just stop working when the GPS signal would go down. He had no feel for grade and was lost without the automatics. There are lots like him around these days.
I have an operator on my crew right now that used to run 8s with GPS. Now he's on a new D8T without it, and he can't carry a grade other than a roller coaster to save his life.
If the job is set up for gps and it goes down how are you going to know what the grade is supposed to be without grade stakes?I can see that structures in place and on grade would be a good reference but what if there are none to go by?Ron G
Anyone else ever call them a pea shooter? or i think craftsman calls them a pocket level.
Thank you, Jerry. :notworthy
you mean a peep sight?
You talking about a hand level??? whats with everyone getting thier panties in a wad about Union Non-union stuff anyway?? Im new here but just from the little time I've been here it looks like this place is full of drama queens?? IMHO GPS will make all operators better, it will make a green horn productive and profitable and it will make a a guy with a good bubble in his ass be even better. nothing worse than seeing a guy ou there making 500 passes with a handfull of dirt trying to finish grade something. You can just see the dollar signs going up in smoke!
Wadded Panties and Butt Bubbles: Well, you know, it's so.... Can keep it there... :lmao Now that!... would be a drama queen... Wikipedia: "The term 'drama queen' is slang for someone who makes a fuss about little things, in a histrionic manner." Yup... agree with ya, there. But, again.... OCR
If a site level is supposed to be an answer to my question that is rediculous. Those that have used them know that they are only good for about 15' with any hope of accuracy.Where is the benchmark? If you are to transfer an elevation using a site level for any appreciable distance you are setting yourself up for trouble,not to mention the time it would take. You either need a transit or a laser to establish your elevations or wait until the GPS system comes back online. I wonder if the engineers set elevations at different points around a jobsite for reference to double check against as a matter of course or are the systems so reliable these days that there is no need? I have never used a GPS system in a production environment,it would be fun to try it.Ron G
If you haven't run across it yet, we espouse a policy I call being "agressively neutral". You can love unions, or hate unions, you just can't do it here. Some guys don't care one way or another, but some feel very passionate, one way or another. Those discussions get heated very quickly, and nobody ever seems to reach any sort of mutual understanding, so it's more headache than it's worth. The machine, and the pile of dirt, don't care whether the butt in the seat is union or not, and those things are kinda what we focus on anyway.
i have run dozers wit and without. gps is awesome, but in housing, where i got my start, it is useless. we would usually black dirt 6 or so houses in a day with only swale stakes. we would leave the dirt grass ready without bustin out the laser.
Had a guy come looking for a job this past spring. Stated that if no airconditioned cabs and no GPS I was wasting my time talking to him. Told him that if there was GPS here he would not be allowed to use it until he showed me he could do it without it. Oh ya, no airconditioned cabs either. The vast majority of the work done here is either design build or not set up for GPS. Guys like this are not operators, they are simply machine drivers. Needless to say he was told to hit the road and don't try to shut the door he came in because it didn't have GPS on it and I didn't want it wrecked.
I've done all types of dozer work so let me clarify "while working in a GPS friendly application, it will improve all operators productivity regardless of skill level!" building random cut and fill pads with a relative elevation for residential housing may be a little harder to apply GPS too.. but I have found that either a blade mounted or incab indicate only system works wonders on those types of jobs.. My greenhorn guys would spend more time finishing the last 4 tenths of the pad than they took to move the first 2 1/2 ' of cut. lasers saved me lots of time and money. Some of my guys never developed into true Catskinners because the lasers became a crutch for them, but that wasnt my problem. I was sick and tired of training, pampering, fixing damaged machines and losing money on greenhorns only to have them finally get pretty decent and ask for a raise the moment I started to turn a profit on them or quit and go somewere else with thier new found skill sets.
I know in the construction world lasers and gps are a must, im from the logging end of things where i built roads our trucks could get out of no stakes no gps just i need to get a loaded log truck around a corner and up the next hill, now before i hear the sarcasm of excessive environmental destruction most all of those roads i built in the end were pushed back up the hill and obliterated, and even have trees growing on them over 30 feet tall in 18 years.
We use GPS (trimble) pretty heavily where I work. As far as when it goes down, what do you do... if it's not the final pass, it's generally not hard to "rough in" grade till it does. Most of our dozer guys have a good enough idea of what they are doing in a particular location, that if it does go down, they have a grace period of work they can still do without grades. That being said, I've never personally seen it go down for longer than 15 minutes. Get into trees or near building and you'll have more problems with getting a good satellite signal, but that's a "known", and hopefully then you'll get survey to pop in a few stakes. Where GPS can get annoying and a little ineffective is when the guys that make that particular plan, don't go over it. Job I was on last year was a four mile road, and was cut into 3 design plans, where two of the plans came together no one bothered to make sure that the final plan vs. the E&S plan was changed and that resulted in a "bust" of a three foot speed bump. Fortunately, I've got just enough brain cells to be able to use the bubble, till they got around to fixing it. Ironically the total station that the grader ran off of was different (and correct) in a few spot by as much as 6". I like GPS, but it like everything else has it's short comings, most seem to come from human error, either the one in the field or the one in the office.
Thanks for the info ive never been around it but have definately seen the really old hands that can hold a perfect grade without thinking which is untrue because they see it in their mind, its a totally different world when your building temp roads do it fast and make sure the trucks can use it, thats my world.
Well Said Makes avg-good,good-better, better-best
RonG: Yes elevations are set at different points on a large project site and used for grade checking so you don't have to turn all the way from a benchmark somewhere. We call them hubs or temporary benchmarks. Great pains are taken to hide them from dump trucks, haul trucks, and concrete trucks.
We have some kids running gps dozers. It is true that you first have to be a dozer operator before the gps can help. you need to know how push and grade dirt good with out it. if you don't it just makes them look and feel like they know what they are doing. I have told the boss more than once if I wanted some one to look good pushing a button and driving around I'd have the wife come run the machine in her bikini. She could do it just as good as them.
just remember somethin guys, these 'kids' don't learn this stuff on their own. all of you were taught how to run equipment, and some of you were even self taught, but you can't expect an 18-20 year old 'kid' to come out and know everything. it all takes time, the 'kid' should have been taught how to run a dozer before he was thrown into the gps world. however, if they come out and don't want to pay their dues, that is an entirely different story.
I havent seen this such a issue for dozer operators but seen a few grader guys switch back to no gps. You might as well have them run rollers.
I've never used the GPS. Is it difficult to get the hang of it?
D5G, you hit it on the head. Lots of these kids don't want to pay their dues.
On alot of state jobs the contractor's can save alot of money on the bid if they go the stakeless route and either draw up the model themselves or hire it out. One thing I have found is that GPS makes some Foreman and Superintendents less of a boss and kinda puts the job in the operators hands. The people that swear that GPS is a waste will be the same guys after using it for a few days will be the ones you can't get to go back without it.